The next generation NFC mobile phone will be your electronic purse.

Run_to_da_hills

We should be quite excited about "NFC phones" that will soon appear on our shelves possibly by mid to late 2009.

These phones will act as an "electronic purses" and can bridge the gap of person to person cashless payments that was deemed impossible just few years ago.

NCF will be marketed as a great convenience tool and they will be desired more than any previous mobile phone that ever existed. They will be heavily subsidised by the governments, the banking sector and of course your service provider.

No more fumbling for change, your very personnel hand held ATM machine, no need to go to the hole in the wall ever again.

Of course it will be loaded with the latest games and gizmo's, TV, videos, MP3s, 10MP zoom camera, massive SSD hdd, touch screen, kitchen sink the lot. etc :rolleyes:

The electronic GSM purse will also eliminate drug dealing, cash robberies, terrorism. ticket touting, the black economy and all other cash related crimes.

http://europe.nokia.com/A4307097

http://www.insideid.com/ecommerce/article.php/3409011

Wagon

One of my mates was writing about that only 2 days ago for a college thing. Pretty mental stuff, I like the idea though. No more going in to change a twenty for some change for the bus or some shyte like that. It's being tested in France already for a few years now.

Also, why did you roll your eyes?

Danbo!

Conspiracy theory forum

Hang on, what just happened?

weeder

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The electronic GSM purse will also eliminate drug dealing, cash robberies, terrorism. ticket touting, the black economy and all other cash related crimes.

it certainly wont

Caoimhín

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The electronic GSM purse will also eliminate drug dealing, cash robberies, terrorism. ticket touting, the black economy and all other cash related crimes.

And the problem is?

Run_to_da_hills

Caoimhín wrote: »

And the problem is?

I will leave you in suspense about it for a few hours

Dragan

Actually it's falling apart under testing but we won't let tiny details like that stop the hype, right.

Wagon

Dragan wrote: »

Actually it's falling apart under testing but we won't let tiny details like that stop the hype, right.

True, from what I heard in France, they didn't implement any real security on the thing. People also just had their bank cards and accounts updated to this sytem without their prior knowledge. So it's not so much the technology as its more the French.

John_Mc

I would be very concerned about the security implications of this. What happens if your phone is stolen?

Zangetsu

This is a terrorable idea tbh... If they put a breathaliser on it then maybe, Laser cards are bad enough!

John_Mc

Zangetsu wrote: »

This is a terrorable idea tbh... If they put a breathaliser on it then maybe, Laser cards are bad enough!

Laser cards are great! Convenient, widely available as a form of payment and secure.

Glowing

Have they not had this in Korea for ages?

Quazzie

Glowing wrote: »

Have they not had this in Korea for ages?

No, thats eating dogs you're thinking of.

Sounds like a great idea IMHO. If its robbed it is no different than having your wallet robbed. I'm assuming a PIN is required for every transaction.

Dragan

Wagon wrote: »

True, from what I heard in France, they didn't implement any real security on the thing. People also just had their bank cards and accounts updated to this sytem without their prior knowledge. So it's not so much the technology as its more the French.

Nokia appear to have taken the stance that it's up to the people who take on the product to provide adequate security in line with their current standards.

They are also having massive problems with cross integration of so many varied systems from banking to mobile communications etc.

Right now, it's a good idea in theory, but a massive lump of crap in reality.

Google Android is a far more interesting and stable concept right now.

Wagon

Dragan wrote: »

Nokia appear to have taken the stance that it's up to the people who take on the product to provide adequate security in line with their current standards.

They are also having massive problems with cross integration of so many varied systems from banking to mobile communications etc.

Right now, it's a good idea in theory, but a massive lump of crap in reality.

Google Android is a far more interesting and stable concept right now.

Just googled it there *high 5 and a saucy wink*Looks interesting. And your right, none of this will take off unless all networks actually take a vow to support it in the next few years. Same thing happened with text messages. Now you can break up with people without having to interact with speech or eye contact! Marvellous invention so it was.

shenanigans1982

Caoimhín wrote: »

And the problem is?

You can't use it to make a phone call...

....or if you can when you place it to your ear it insert a national I.D chip inside your ear which will be used by the government to track your every move.

Run_to_da_hills

Caoimhín wrote: »

And the problem is?

I said ill let you sit on it for a few hours

The downside of using this NCF GSM personal electronic purse is.

Every single consumer item that you purchase will be recorded in a database at POS (point of sale). taken from its corresponding EAN, UPC or Etag reading.

Even the smallest person to person dealings will be logged and recorded on a data base.

The exact location of the purchase transaction is logged, timed and pinpointed to within yards on the planet by GSM tracking and cell site analysis

These phones could usher in the death knell for the freedom of cash around the world as we know it .

A similar "electronic purse" project was introduced in Ennis in 1997 through Visa Cash, It was a card based project that fell flat on its face. At the time no one really wanted to carry a card and the inconvenience of using top up terminals but to day almost everyone uses a mobile. http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/places/infoage/nocash.htm

Hopefully this system will incur similar problems that will delay its introduction.

shenanigans1982 wrote: »

You can't use it to make a phone call...

....or if you can when you place it to your ear it insert a national I.D chip inside your ear which will be used by the government to track your every move.

You could be correct about this device storing your personal identity. :eek:

The government can track your moves on your mobile already through cell site analysis so it could make sense to incorporate National ID Firmware into the phone. :eek:

cormie

they wont replace cash, nothing ever will, so if you want anonymity, just use hard cash :cool:

thelordofcheese

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I said ill let you sit on it for a few hours

The downside of using this NCF GSM personal electronic purse is.

Every single consumer item that you purchase will be recorded in a database at POS (point of sale). taken from its corresponding EAN, UPC or Etag reading.

Even the smallest person to person dealings will be logged and recorded on a data base.

The exact location of the purchase transaction is logged, timed and pinpointed to within yards on the planet by GSM tracking and cell site analysis

These phones could usher in the death knell for the freedom of cash around the world as we know it .

A similar "electronic purse" project was introduced in Ennis in 1997 through Visa Cash, It was a card based project that fell flat on its face. At the time no one really wanted to carry a card and the inconvenience of using top up terminals but to day almost everyone uses a mobile. http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/places/infoage/nocash.htm

Hopefully this system will incur similar problems that will delay its introduction.

You could be correct about this device storing your personal identity. :eek:

The government can track your moves on your mobile already through cell site analysis so it could make sense to incorporate National ID Firmware into the phone. :eek:

Goddam, i fucking hate you and everything you post.

Run_to_da_hills

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Goddam, i fucking hate you and everything you post.

Could you do us all a favor, go pack your bags and swim across the Atlantic.:rolleyes:

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I would rather swim to the US than take one of those flying peasant wagons.

thelordofcheese

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Could you do us all a favor, go pack your bags and swim across the Atlantic.:rolleyes:

Only if you promise to get a new hobby.
Or just post about something else. ANYTHING else.

And less emoticons as well, they are a sign of a diseased mind.

CantGetNoSleep

You posted this in the conspiracy theories forum too, could you not just have left it in there rather than double posting it, i'm sure i'm not the only one that couldn't give a f*ck about the sh1t you come in here spouting

Genghiz Cohen

Anyone who thinks they have any sort on anonymity in this day and age needs to wake up.
Every phone call, text messag and email is checked and filtered for keywords.
This won't make a difference.


Also how hard would it be to stand in line with a reciever, collect the data these devices send, go home, decrypt it and spend someone elses money.

Run_to_da_hills

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

You posted this in the conspiracy theories forum too, could you not just have left it in there rather than double posting it, i'm sure I'm not the only one that couldn't give a f*ck about the sh1t you come in here spouting

The thread on this same subject in the Conspiracy theories went into far greater depth on the subject and I didn't think it was appropriate to mention much of its content in AH.

The reason that I brought this topic into AH is because it concerns something that will soon be all the talk of the town.

Quazzie

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The thread on this same subject in the Conspiracy theories went into far greater detail on the subject and I didn't think it was appropriate to mention much of its content in AH.

The reason that I brought this topic into AH is because it concerns something that will soon be all the talk of the town.

Is trying to reach a wider audience not a violation of the charter??

4zn76tysfajdxp

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The reason that I brought this topic into AH is because it concerns something that will soon be all the talk of the town.

Not a very good conspiracy then is it? Which is it, something "the man" wants to hide or the next iPod? Either way it doesn't jusify the double posting.

Wagon

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I said ill let you sit on it for a few hours

The downside of using this NCF GSM personal electronic purse is.

Every single consumer item that you purchase will be recorded in a database at POS (point of sale). taken from its corresponding EAN, UPC or Etag reading.

Even the smallest person to person dealings will be logged and recorded on a data base.

The exact location of the purchase transaction is logged, timed and pinpointed to within yards on the planet by GSM tracking and cell site analysis

These phones could usher in the death knell for the freedom of cash around the world as we know it .

A similar "electronic purse" project was introduced in Ennis in 1997 through Visa Cash, It was a card based project that fell flat on its face. At the time no one really wanted to carry a card and the inconvenience of using top up terminals but to day almost everyone uses a mobile. http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/places/infoage/nocash.htm

Hopefully this system will incur similar problems that will delay its introduction.

You could be correct about this device storing your personal identity. :eek:

The government can track your moves on your mobile already through cell site analysis so it could make sense to incorporate National ID Firmware into the phone. :eek:

AHHHAHAGGGG:mad::mad::mad::mad: Here i was thinking that you were actually going to start talking about something like a new change in business or leap in technology but ITS ANOTHER ****ING CONSPIRACY!!! **** off and die! :mad:

Run_to_da_hills

Leia Greasy Tenderloin wrote: »

Not a very good conspiracy then is it? Which is it, something "the man" wants to hide or the next iPod? Either way it doesn't jusify the double posting.

The Subject in AH is "The next generation NCF mobile phone will be your electronic purse". And when I started this thread I left the topic open for several hours before I posted my conclusion to the subject. The subject in AH is based on facts from provided links from mobile phone manufacturers. (anyone who knows about GSM Cellphone technology can verify their capabilities.)

The posting in CT is "The next generation "NCF" Mobile phones will eliminate global cash". and is more based on the conspiracy theory of the global take over of the NWO.

togster

You are officially the biggest knob end on boards

Ruu_Old

Sure my 3210 can do most of that stuff.

Run_to_da_hills

Ruu wrote: »

Sure my 3210 can do most of that stuff.

Mine is the 5100

Dragan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Subject in AH is "The next generation NCF mobile phone will be your electronic purse". And when I started this thread I left the topic open for several hours before I posted my conclusion to the subject. The subject in AH is based on facts from provided links from mobile phone manufacturers. (anyone who knows about GSM Cellphone technology can verify their capabilities.)

The posting in CT is "The next generation "NCF" Mobile phones will eliminate global cash". and is more based on the conspiracy theory of the global take over of the NWO.

The only thing you are missing is...........

1) It doesn't work yet and won't for the conceivable future.

2) The sheer volume of data involved. If , as you say, it will be used to store all the information available on everyone then the sheer volume of data will be ridiculous. I understand it's easier to sit there and come up with Theories that sound cool, but as someone who works with Data everyday i can happily tell you the ability to store all of the data points that an entire population would produce would be next to impossible at the moment. Then you have issues with data integrity etc etc etc

3) To be able to access the information means court injunctions etc etc, but we won't let anything like precedent get in the way of a good story.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is not a double posting. They have two entirely different headings although they mention the same topic one goes on about the New World Order.

The Subject in AH is "The next generation NCF mobile phone will be your electronic purse". And when I started this thread I left the topic open for several hours before I posted my conclusion to the subject. The subject in AH is based on facts. (anyone who knows about GSM Cellphone technology can verify their capabilities.)

The posting in CT is "The next generation "NCF" Mobile phones will eliminate global cash". and is more based on the conspiracy of the global take over of the NWO and its much talked about cashless system.

If I was being pedantic (or accurate, whatever) I could easily say that they're clearly not two "entirely different headings."

seamus

Dragan wrote: »

I understand it's easier to sit there and come up with Theories that sound cool, but as someone who works with Data everyday i can happily tell you the ability to store all of the data points that an entire population would produce would be next to impossible at the moment. Then you have issues with data integrity etc etc etc

Not only that, but conspiracy theorists seem to be under the impression that there would be somebody at a screen going, "Uh-oh, John Smith just gave his friend Joe €5, get the feds down there now!".

Instead the reality is that any such information is just another row of data in a monolithic database and that information would only be used against you if someone was interested in using it against you.

In other words, it would allow "da man" to do exactly what they could do now anyway. Perhaps just a little bit cheaper.

Conspiracy theorists always seem to overestimate their own personal importance to society and underestimate the scale of cost and effort that conspiracies would consume.

Interesting to see Barclays showing adds for their contactless technology, clearly showing that you just have to swipe, no need to enter a PIN or provide I.D.
That sounds secure...

The best solution is to give everyone a card which used contactless technology and an RFID chip implanted under your skin. The card will only work in the presence of your specific RFID (derived from your unique chemical makeup which the RFID chip scans evey 10ms and sends to a central government computer). That would solve all theft instantly.

Run_to_da_hills

Dragan wrote: »

The only thing you are missing is...........

1) It doesn't work yet and won't for the conceivable future..

I cannot see it working immediately but I could possibly see it have a potential.

Dragan wrote: »

2) The sheer volume of data involved. If , as you say, it will be used to store all the information available on everyone then the sheer volume of data will be ridiculous. I understand it's easier to sit there and come up with Theories that sound cool, but as someone who works with Data everyday i can happily tell you the ability to store all of the data points that an entire population would produce would be next to impossible at the moment. Then you have issues with data integrity etc etc etc.

Space is cheap these days and all information by Email, phone or text message is stored under the data retention order for several years but as a previous poster mentioned that it is all useless without having positive names and faces applied to it.

Dragan wrote: »

3) To be able to access the information means court injunctions etc etc, but we won't let anything like precedent get in the way of a good story.

It may not be able to stand in court as yet (The O'Reilly murder trial fell through because "cell Site analysis" was new to the court system here but this could change). Such technology can still lead the authorities into a criminal tip offs that they can pursue such as purchase and income records.

Dragan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I cannot see it working immediately but I could possibly see it have a potential.

No you don't , you see another bit of fuel for another of your pointless AH threads.

[/QUOTE]Space is cheap these days and all information by Email, phone or text message is stored under the data retention order but as a previous poster mentioned that it is all useless without having positive names and faces applied to it.[/QUOTE]

LoL, your having a bubble right? I assume you do not work, nor have ever worked, in a job the means an indept knowledge of a large scale database?

Indeed, every email and phone call and text message is stored....sure. Even on our lowly Irish networks the amount of information generated by customer actions is massive, and i mean massive. Not "massive" as in the word, "massive" as in the actual meaning of the word.

And space is not cheap. Far from it when you are talking about the amount of space required for this type of thing to be kept retrospectively, day on day.

It may not be able to stand in court as yet (The O'Reilly murder trial fell through because "cell Site analysis" was a new to the legal system here and did not hold water in court, this could all change). Such technology can still lead the authorities into a criminal tip offs that they can pursue such as purchase and income records.

And you still need the court injunction to do it. You ever need one of those. It's takes a while.

As i said, don't let the way thing actually work get in the way of a good story.

Edit : Also, information on email, texts and phone calls is not stored for "several years" and the only information the majority of services will keep is based around billed services, for billing reasons.

seamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It may not be able to stand in court as yet (The O'Reilly murder trial fell through because "cell Site analysis" was new to the court system here but this could change).

Joe O'Reilly was convicted of murder. Are you thinking of something else?

Cell site analysis is a rough science really. All you can really do is show that someone's phone was probably within a certain radius of a particular mast at a particular time of day. In order to actually pinpoint someone's whereabouts, you need triangulation (like GPS), which involves three distinct masts (though you could be reasonably accurate with two). Cell networks have never been designed for triangulation and the nature of hand-offs and such mean that they would need to be specifically reconfigured to save the data required to triangulate the position of every single handset within the range of those three masts at any on particular time.

You think the mobile operators are going to pay for that? Or allow the government access to their network?

Massive chunks of the country also have much thinner coverage than the cities so much of the population is only ever covered by two masts at a time (if even). How can they be tracked?

Run_to_da_hills

Dragan wrote: »

Edit : Also, information on email, texts and phone calls is not stored for "several years" and the only information the majority of services will keep is based around billed services, for billing reasons.

Could anyone explain why the global log on data for Utube was retained for several years during the Viacom law suit?

As far as the UK authorities go with retaining data I wouldn't trust them as far as I would throw them and I would doubt if it Ireland would be capable of holding any of its own data on emails, facebook, text messages etc. (It would be held by the both the mobile and ISP).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention

Quazzie

And who is paying for all these storage devices, and their maintenance?

Sometimes I enjoy your posts because they make me feel normal but sometimes you just take it too far!!

thelordofcheese

Runny, everything you say is so fucking wrong i'm surprised you don't collapse under the weight of your own bullshit.

Dragan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Could anyone explain why the global log on data for Utube was retained for several years during the Viacom law suit?

Ask Youtube?

Seriously, the actual laws that govern Data Rentention are very different from what you seem to think they are.

Run_to_da_hills

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

And who is paying for all these storage devices, and their maintenance?

Sometimes I enjoy your posts because they make me feel normal but sometimes you just take it too far!!

The likes of Google, UTube, Vodafone, O2, NRA, Iarnrod Eireann, Ryanair, British Airways, TFL. (Transport for london) must hold all their digital records by law in the same manner that Irish companies are required to hold company files and receipts for the CRO. The authorities have the right to access these records if the suspect terrorism or criminal activity.

The data for the UTube Viacom case fitted on just 12 Terrabites of HDD space which would cost just a couple of grand if it was set up in a RAID server syatem. This would be pittance to maintain. The average top end desktop these days comes with a TB of space.

Dragan wrote: »

Ask Youtube?

Seriously, the actual laws that govern Data Rentention are very different from what you seem to think they are.

At the time of all this hype with Viacom civil liberties groupes were up in arms that UTube held this information since the start of their records. We have yet to be given an explaination of why they retained it.

javaboy

Will it come in an electronic manbag? I'm not big on purses.

seamus

You're aware that boards.ie has a full list of every IP address you've used on boards. That's possibly 4,719 different ways that you could be tracked. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to cross-reference those IP addresses and actually build a comprehensive real-world map of where you were in the world at the time that you were posting.

A second cross-reference could easily track your online activities across other sites.

You know why it isn't done?

1. You're just not that f*cking interesting. Nobody cares where you've been over the last year and what sites you've vistied. But don't feel bad; I'm not that interesting either. Nor is anyone else here. The only people who might be interested are soulless marketeers. And even they're not that interested in you personally. You're just another number. Like me.

2. It would be illegal use of that data.

Dragan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The likes of Google, UTube, Vodafone, O2, NRA, Iarnrod Eireann, Ryanair, British Airways, TFL. (Transport for london) must hold all their digital records by law in the same manner that Irish companies are required to hold company files and receipts for the CRO. The authorities have the right to access these records if the suspect terrorism or criminal activity.

And do you have any idea how long the named companies need to hold it for? Clearly not. I do, as i work for one of those you named, and it's not even close to as long as you seem to think.

As i said, once information is required for billing them we will happily hold on to it but even this will be for an extreme limited time when it comes to holding it in a live Database. Incoming and non charged communications in the event of telecoms and they are under no obligation to retain it. Non billing info for Airlines? Guess what, no obligation to retain that either. Same with any other service.

Also, the authorities have no right to access the information and Data Integrity will be strongly upheld by service providers. Now then, if the Gardai or any other member of Law Enforcement contact the relevant liasons in the relevant Risk Management and Fraud Departments with a Court Injunction cleary detailing the specific dates and customer information they are looking for then off course these companies will co-operate with them. Until then, no.

The data for the UTube Viacom case fitted on just 12 Terrabites of HDD space which would cost just a couple of grand if it was set up in a RAID server syatem. This would be pittance to maintain. The average top end desktop these days comes with a TB of space.

At the time of all this hype with Viacom civil liberties groupes were up in arms that UTube held this information since the start of their records. We have yet to be given an explaination of why they retained it.

Wow, all Youtube were keeping track off was log on, access servlet and IP. Thats three fields, with less than 30 string spaces max. Hardly a massive amount of information.

Do you have any idea how many info points the average mobile customer generates simply by walking around, without even using their phone as the signal is passed from cell to cell and all the relevant GSM encryptions carried out and recorded? Lots. And thats one person. Then add in phones calls. Then texts, sms, gprs and other services. Now think that for each of those information pieces you need to keep track of 2 or 3 dozen information points in conjunction, which will be cross stored across a variety of tables and possibly even a variety of Data Warehouses?

Yeah, it's all falling apart for your conspiracy now.

Look, as long as you continue to talk utter ****e i'll be sitting here tearing your posts apart.

Get used to it, or move to an area fo interest that someone on boards doesn't work in. Every time you post one of these threads someone from the relevant industy comes along and tears your points apart.

And long may it continue to happen.

funk-you

http://media.photobucket.com/image/record/Yanglow/418234404_f288f48ee6.jpg

Bill-e

I used to be able to save money before the AIB sent me a laser card. Which I did not ask for in the first place

Rsaeire

This is just another wireless technology that has little to no security and is easily hackable, just like RFID chips in passports that were said to be unhackable.

Run_to_da_hills

Dragan wrote: »

And do you have any idea how long the named companies need to hold it for? Clearly not. I do, as i work for one of those you named, and it's not even close to as long as you seem to think.

As i said, once information is required for billing them we will happily hold on to it but even this will be for an extreme limited time when it comes to holding it in a live Database. Incoming and non charged communications in the event of telecoms and they are under no obligation to retain it. Non billing info for Airlines? Guess what, no obligation to retain that either. Same with any other service.

Also, the authorities have no right to access the information and Data Integrity will be strongly upheld by service providers. Now then, if the Gardai or any other member of Law Enforcement contact the relevant liaisons in the relevant Risk Management and Fraud Departments with a Court Injunction cleary detailing the specific dates and customer information they are looking for then off course these companies will co-operate with them. Until then, no.
.

Have you been hiding under a rock for the last year? I have been posting and reading heaps of threads on the subject of the erosion of data protection and civil liberties particularly with the British and US authorities. Please explain the following. http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/telecoms/article3965033.ece

Dragan wrote: »

Wow, all Youtube were keeping track off was log on, access servlet and IP. Thats three fields, with less than 30 string spaces max. Hardly a massive amount of information. .

It was enough to raise concerns ands waken up civil liberties groupes, If Utube had retained this data for so long what about Facebook, Flicker, Myspace etc etc.

Dragan wrote: »

Do you have any idea how many info points the average mobile customer generates simply by walking around, without even using their phone as the signal is passed from cell to cell and all the relevant GSM encryptions carried out and recorded? Lots. And thats one person. Then add in phones calls. Then texts, sms, gprs and other services. Now think that for each of those information pieces you need to keep track of 2 or 3 dozen information points in conjunction, which will be cross stored across a variety of tables and possibly even a variety of Data Warehouses?.

When Joe O Reily was driving around in his car, did he or the authorities know that his point to point cellphone records would be retained? Did the service providers "guess" that this guy was off the wall and decided to retain them. If they retained these records for him they must have them for everyone else. I would like to hear from someone on mobile phone forensics on this one.

Dragan wrote: »

Yeah, it's all falling apart for your conspiracy now. Look, as long as you continue to talk utter ****e I'll be sitting here tearing your posts apart.
Get used to it, or move to an area fo interest that someone on boards doesn't work in. Every time you post one of these threads someone from the relevant industry comes along and tears your points apart. And long may it continue to happen.

I will gladly wait for you to come to me with someone from the mobile communications industry to try and debunk my theory that mobile phones will be used as a successful tool for personal cashless transactions. I will also gladly wait for you to get a source that will debunk the capabilities of track and trace with GSM records.

AlmightyCushion

Already posted in Conspiracy Theories were it belongs.