Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

misty floyd

Fair play Krusty! Another great time to be proud of.

pgmcpq

Great performance Krusty. Pulling out a PB from Dante's less well known 10th ring of hell ( been there ) is impressive. Boston should be kinder in terms of weather.

jcsmum

Well done and what a fantastic race report - thoroughly enjoyed it.

Slogger Jogger

Great report KC and terrific strength of will to persevere. And you went from not wanting to run again to wanting to start another 6 month program in the space of a couple of paragraphs. Always a pleasure to read your training log and race reports.

The heat had a terrible impact. Lots of runners suffered. A US firefighter running for charity died in the closing stages of the race. Poor soul. Seeing things like that puts things into perspective

ManFromAtlantis

do ya know krusty, in the long term, and with the way the race panned out i think you'll get more out of that race than you would if you had breezed to a 2 42.
youre questioning your training, you showed youre mentally strong when its gets tough and i think you'll come back stronger.

opus

Sounds like some slog there Krusty, fair play on persisting & picking up the new PB to boot!

I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on the P&D program you followed purely for selfish reasons as I'm planning to use it again for London next year albeit not at the same pace you were aiming for.

Peckham wrote: »

Also, judging by time differences you should have been very drunk writing that. Seems very coherent!

Apart from where he compared himself to a giant running cactus

shotgunmcos

Thats your most eloquent report to date KC and with a PB performance to boot Well done, that sounded like a hard day out but you showed a warriors spirit. If it was 30 degrees I'd imagine the electrolytes were necessary alright. Fair play to you for such a gutsy run though!

SucCes09

HTFU KC - http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/us-woman-gives-birth-hours-after-running-chicago-marathon-2901647.html

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It was payed back in spades at mile 24, when a middle aged blonde women with a lot more cojones than me told me to follow her to the finish line. It was the kick up the arse I needed. I stuck with her for around 400m, until we hit another sunny patch, and once again, I suffered.

Was this the 39 weeks pregnant one? Fair play to her, some woman.

Krusty_Clown

SucCes09 wrote: »

HTFU KC - http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/us-woman-gives-birth-hours-after-running-chicago-marathon-2901647.html

I reckon I was carrying a lot more weight than her, and didn't have to walk from the half-way point. You're bang on. She needs to HTFU.

Pronator

Great going KC, so easy to chuck the towel in but you did not. You can take huge positives from this and know you are mentally very strong. All looks good for you for the future.

Marthastew

Fantastic report, I really enjoyed reading it. I particlualry enjoyed the giant running cactus image:D

And well done to you a PB is a PB. And congrats also to Mrs Krusty, very tough conditions to get a PB.

brownian

Top report, KC. The heat must have been a really big issue. Not the time you wanted, but as others have said, the determination shines through. A marathon in a cooler (home?) environment might have suited you better.

And sub-2:50's a pretty savage run:) Congratulations on that alone.

smmoore79

Great performance Krusty, savage! Plenty of time to get that time down further. youre getting me all tempted to go marathon training again! Whats the plan for the winter months? shorter stuff or do you have your eye on another marathon?

Krusty_Clown

opus wrote: »

I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts on the P&D program you followed purely for selfish reasons as I'm planning to use it again for London next year albeit not at the same pace you were aiming for.

Hi opus, I've had a day to think about it, and where it went wrong, and my current way of thinking is that plan itself was fine. The problem lay in how I implemented the plan. The things I would change if I got a do'over:
Long runs - these were a little disrupted, between work-travel and races. Should have done more (some?) progression runs, so the body was more capable of dealing with the increased effort levels required towards the end of the race.
PMP runs - more of them. As you know, the last one is something like 5-6 weeks out from the race. Had I done one closer to race-day, I would've been better prepared, and would have had a better barometer for where I currently was (and might have made a more rewarding decision about my target). Also, I swapped a 18/12 mile PMP run for the national half marathon, and tagged on a few easy miles either side of the race. It's just not the same kind of session as a long run with PMP mileage, between breaks, and the easier race conditions. It was a bit of a cop-out.
General aerobic runs: I ran them too slow.
Mental strength - I wasn't tough enough. I need to think on this one some more. Perhaps better training would have seen me better prepared mentally. I'm not certain. I reckon on a cooler day with a less ambitious targets I would've run sub 2:45 relatively comfortably. I just wasn't ready to put in the hard work for the tougher target. A good lesson for me. It's not all in the legs.

The mileage definitely worked and I'll be increasing that for the next outing. I'll likely stick with the same type of plan, just customize it more to focus on my weak-spots.

Krusty_Clown

smmoore79 wrote: »

Great performance Krusty, savage! Plenty of time to get that time down further. youre getting me all tempted to go marathon training again! Whats the plan for the winter months? shorter stuff or do you have your eye on another marathon?

Hi smmoore, thanks. I'm just coming around to the idea that I didn't get a lot out of that marathon training chapter, apart from a reset/starting point to take on the next set of challenges.

Short term plan is recovery. Hopefully get into shape where I can run some of the club's cross country races. Would love to take a stab at a sub-5 mile around Christmas time, if there's a suitable Goal mile around. Then marathon training begins in earnest in January, with Boston in April in mind. No excuses. I want to see good progress across all of the shorter distances this time around. So that's the next six months sown-up.

Four mile recovery run tomorrow (if the body is willing). Easy does it (for now).

Mr Slow

Will you follow 55-70 or 70-85 for Boston?

Krusty_Clown

Mr Slow wrote: »

Will you follow 55-70 or 70-85 for Boston?

There's a 70-85? Perfect. The last one I followed was the 55-70 (but increased the weekly mileage so it was closer to 60-75 miles). so the leap shouldn't be that great, but I do need to build the mileage back up again.

Mr Slow

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

There's a 70-85? Perfect. The last one I followed was the 55-70 (but increased the weekly mileage so it was closer to 60-75 miles). so the leap shouldn't be that great, but I do need to build the mileage back up again.

Yep, 18 weeks non stop, no rest days just pain and recovery, pain and recovery, you'll love it!

neilc

Love this kind of insight from the experienced guys like yourself on this forum Krusty, thanks, gives the likes of myself loads to be thinking about.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi opus, I've had a day to think about it, and where it went wrong, and my current way of thinking is that plan itself was fine. The problem lay in how I implemented the plan. The things I would change if I got a do'over:
Long runs - these were a little disrupted, between work-travel and races. Should have done more (some?) progression runs, so the body was more capable of dealing with the increased effort levels required towards the end of the race.
PMP runs - more of them. As you know, the last one is something like 5-6 weeks out from the race. Had I done one closer to race-day, I would've been better prepared, and would have had a better barometer for where I currently was (and might have made a more rewarding decision about my target). Also, I swapped a 18/12 mile PMP run for the national half marathon, and tagged on a few easy miles either side of the race. It's just not the same kind of session as a long run with PMP mileage, between breaks, and the easier race conditions. It was a bit of a cop-out.
General aerobic runs: I ran them too slow.
Mental strength - I wasn't tough enough. I need to think on this one some more. Perhaps better training would have seen me better prepared mentally. I'm not certain. I reckon on a cooler day with a less ambitious targets I would've run sub 2:45 relatively comfortably. I just wasn't ready to put in the hard work for the tougher target. A good lesson for me. It's not all in the legs.

The mileage definitely worked and I'll be increasing that for the next outing. I'll likely stick with the same type of plan, just customize it more to focus on my weak-spots.

seanynova

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi opus, I've had a day to think about it, and where it went wrong, and my current way of thinking is that plan itself was fine. The problem lay in how I implemented the plan. The things I would change if I got a do'over:
Long runs - these were a little disrupted, between work-travel and races. Should have done more (some?) progression runs, so the body was more capable of dealing with the increased effort levels required towards the end of the race.
PMP runs - more of them. As you know, the last one is something like 5-6 weeks out from the race. Had I done one closer to race-day, I would've been better prepared, and would have had a better barometer for where I currently was (and might have made a more rewarding decision about my target). Also, I swapped a 18/12 mile PMP run for the national half marathon, and tagged on a few easy miles either side of the race. It's just not the same kind of session as a long run with PMP mileage, between breaks, and the easier race conditions. It was a bit of a cop-out.
General aerobic runs: I ran them too slow.
Mental strength - I wasn't tough enough. I need to think on this one some more. Perhaps better training would have seen me better prepared mentally. I'm not certain. I reckon on a cooler day with a less ambitious targets I would've run sub 2:45 relatively comfortably. I just wasn't ready to put in the hard work for the tougher target. A good lesson for me. It's not all in the legs.

The mileage definitely worked and I'll be increasing that for the next outing. I'll likely stick with the same type of plan, just customize it more to focus on my weak-spots.

good breakdown of the training....unfortunetly for me im failing on all(?) of those:

• not doing enough LSR's
• stopping during PMP runs
• running aerobic runs too slow
• lack of mental strength to get through sessions

....sh*t, shouldnt have read this until after sundays marathon!

good luck with your recovery anwyay.

opus

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi opus, I've had a day to think about it, and where it went wrong, and my current way of thinking is that plan itself was fine. The problem lay in how I implemented the plan. The things I would change if I got a do'over:
Long runs - these were a little disrupted, between work-travel and races. Should have done more (some?) progression runs, so the body was more capable of dealing with the increased effort levels required towards the end of the race.
PMP runs - more of them. As you know, the last one is something like 5-6 weeks out from the race. Had I done one closer to race-day, I would've been better prepared, and would have had a better barometer for where I currently was (and might have made a more rewarding decision about my target). Also, I swapped a 18/12 mile PMP run for the national half marathon, and tagged on a few easy miles either side of the race. It's just not the same kind of session as a long run with PMP mileage, between breaks, and the easier race conditions. It was a bit of a cop-out.
General aerobic runs: I ran them too slow.
Mental strength - I wasn't tough enough. I need to think on this one some more. Perhaps better training would have seen me better prepared mentally. I'm not certain. I reckon on a cooler day with a less ambitious targets I would've run sub 2:45 relatively comfortably. I just wasn't ready to put in the hard work for the tougher target. A good lesson for me. It's not all in the legs.

The mileage definitely worked and I'll be increasing that for the next outing. I'll likely stick with the same type of plan, just customize it more to focus on my weak-spots.

Thanks for the insight Krusty, I actually did all the long runs as progressive & it certainly gave me a bit of confidence prior to Berlin. Would agree with you about the lack of PMP miles towards the end of the plan as I did worry a bit about that as well.

When you mention doing the GA runs faster, what sort of pace are thinking of? Think I ran them around MP+20% last time.

Enjoy the recovery although it sounds like you're not planning too much of a break!

ddel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi opus, I've had a day to think about it, and where it went wrong, and my current way of thinking is that plan itself was fine. The problem lay in how I implemented the plan. The things I would change if I got a do'over:
Long runs - these were a little disrupted, between work-travel and races. Should have done more (some?) progression runs, so the body was more capable of dealing with the increased effort levels required towards the end of the race.
PMP runs - more of them. As you know, the last one is something like 5-6 weeks out from the race. Had I done one closer to race-day, I would've been better prepared, and would have had a better barometer for where I currently was (and might have made a more rewarding decision about my target). Also, I swapped a 18/12 mile PMP run for the national half marathon, and tagged on a few easy miles either side of the race. It's just not the same kind of session as a long run with PMP mileage, between breaks, and the easier race conditions. It was a bit of a cop-out.
General aerobic runs: I ran them too slow.
Mental strength - I wasn't tough enough. I need to think on this one some more. Perhaps better training would have seen me better prepared mentally. I'm not certain. I reckon on a cooler day with a less ambitious targets I would've run sub 2:45 relatively comfortably. I just wasn't ready to put in the hard work for the tougher target. A good lesson for me. It's not all in the legs.

The mileage definitely worked and I'll be increasing that for the next outing. I'll likely stick with the same type of plan, just customize it more to focus on my weak-spots.

Great advice and summary. I agree the mental strength issue would be cleared up by one or two of the training elements falling into place.

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself about the training, you picked a lot of pb's over the past few months and still did some good marathon prep work. You may not have nailed your single main goal, but you achieved a very broad range of times/wins. Even looking at your 5k/10k times - there's more there if you were a little more specific (more speed, intervals). The exact same could be said of the marathon - there's a lot more in the tank if you were a small bit more specifics.

If I were fortunate enough to be in your exceptionally fit and hungry shoes I'd be looking to really focus for a while. Train for specific goals - possible a quick 10k/5k for 3/4 months and then quick marathon for 3/4 months after that - or vice versa.

Finally - a bit like any sport, you learned so much more from a (marginally) disappointing result than you could have from a win/success! I predict your next marathon will be targeting sub 2.40

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi opus, I've had a day to think about it, and where it went wrong, and my current way of thinking is that plan itself was fine. The problem lay in how I implemented the plan. The things I would change if I got a do'over:
Long runs - these were a little disrupted, between work-travel and races. Should have done more (some?) progression runs, so the body was more capable of dealing with the increased effort levels required towards the end of the race.
PMP runs - more of them. As you know, the last one is something like 5-6 weeks out from the race. Had I done one closer to race-day, I would've been better prepared, and would have had a better barometer for where I currently was (and might have made a more rewarding decision about my target). Also, I swapped a 18/12 mile PMP run for the national half marathon, and tagged on a few easy miles either side of the race. It's just not the same kind of session as a long run with PMP mileage, between breaks, and the easier race conditions. It was a bit of a cop-out.
General aerobic runs: I ran them too slow.
Mental strength - I wasn't tough enough. I need to think on this one some more. Perhaps better training would have seen me better prepared mentally. I'm not certain. I reckon on a cooler day with a less ambitious targets I would've run sub 2:45 relatively comfortably. I just wasn't ready to put in the hard work for the tougher target. A good lesson for me. It's not all in the legs.

Pretty much the same conclusion as I made myself after Berlin. You did the 12 week programme right? It was definitely lacking in PMP and LT miles when you look at the guys following daniels and the like. Still though, with the stady 70+ mile weeks you were doing there will be a good enough base there to tackle a tougher marathon Programme in the new year.

Thanks for the report BTW, great read.

Peckham

opus wrote: »

When you mention doing the GA runs faster, what sort of pace are thinking of? Think I ran them around MP+20% last time.

Would be interested in hearing more about this too - particularly as someone who is guilty of running GA and recovery too fast!

Krusty_Clown

Peckham wrote: »

Would be interested in hearing more about this too - particularly as someone who is guilty of running GA and recovery too fast!

Let me preface this by saying that this is just my opinion, and relates more to my own performance than any kind of general rules of thumb. I've only been running since 2008, so can only comment on what works for me, rather than what works in general. There are far better informed (and performing) runners on this forum who can provide better general advice. Having said that...

I think I need to go back to my Berlin training, and do some comparison, but generally speaking, I ran sessions faster (which is a requirement of the more aggressive goal) but ran all of my other runs slower. Now I know that this approach is generally espoused as the correct one, but I think I was running my general aerobic runs a little too slow for my given target and the same is true of my long runs. I was aiming for a figure of around 7:15-7:30/mile average for a general aerobic run, but reckon I should have been closer to 6:50-7:15 for this kind of general run, as they aren't included in the program just to ratchet up the mileage, but rather to provide some aerobic conditioning.

If the marathon target is 6:11 - 6:15/mile, then 6:50-7:15 should feel pretty comfortable. The heart rate should be low, and the effort level shouldn't be great, so that later in the program a mid-week 15 mile run at 7:00/mile shouldn't take too much out of me.

The problem was, with the extra mileage I was constantly tired. It was only towards the end of the program, when I cut back on the booze and made a conscious effort to get more sleep that the additional mileage got a lot easier. So the other area that I should have focused on was general well-being. That comes at a sacrifice (I do like my beer!), but marathon targets just don't come cheap for me any more (diminishing returns), and require a greater level of commitment that extends beyond just running.

Mr Slow

The downside to having dramatically improved, more work for less gain.

drquirky

KC- Good run in Chi-Town! In regards to the GA runs I think you make a really good point. I find that GA pace is actually the most difficult pace to bring down as I think it can be hard on these kind of runs to resist the temptation to slack! It does follow though that the quicker your easy runs, the easier a quick MP is gonna feel.

ddel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Let me preface this by saying that this is just my opinion, and relates more to my own performance than any kind of general rules of thumb. I've only been running since 2008, so can only comment on what works for me, rather than what works in general. There are far better informed (and performing) runners on this forum who can provide better general advice. Having said that...

I think I need to go back to my Berlin training, and do some comparison, but generally speaking, I ran sessions faster (which is a requirement of the more aggressive goal) but ran all of my other runs slower. Now I know that this approach is generally espoused as the correct one, but I think I was running my general aerobic runs a little too slow for my given target and the same is true of my long runs. I was aiming for a figure of around 7:15-7:30/mile average for a general aerobic run, but reckon I should have been closer to 6:50-7:15 for this kind of general run, as they aren't included in the program just to ratchet up the mileage, but rather to provide some aerobic conditioning.

If the marathon target is 6:11 - 6:15/mile, then 6:50-7:15 should feel pretty comfortable. The heart rate should be low, and the effort level shouldn't be great, so that later in the program a mid-week 15 mile run at 7:00/mile shouldn't take too much out of me.

The problem was, with the extra mileage I was constantly tired. It was only towards the end of the program, when I cut back on the booze and made a conscious effort to get more sleep that the additional mileage got a lot easier. So the other area that I should have focused on was general well-being. That comes at a sacrifice (I do like my beer!), but marathon targets just don't come cheap for me any more (diminishing returns), and require a greater level of commitment that extends beyond just running.

This faster aerobic easy run has been in the back of my mind for the past few weeks. To go old school and modern it seems to be Lydiards 1/4 effort pace OR 75% of Max HR OR 65-70% of maxHR-resting HR.

It's easy, but it's not recovery. I'd describe it as - "you can run that effort 7 days a week, with a lot of miles, but when you introduce quality sessions it can be a little to much - some days". For me the average HR for 75% would be 145 and the 65-70% for max minus resting is 140-148. These are based off a max of 192 and resting of 46. Would those % HR figures tie in with your target of 7 min miling for a 15 miler?

Also, I find these runs nicer than recovery runs. You're at a pace/sensation beyond plodding recovery, but you are never in discomfort.

Krusty_Clown

ddel wrote: »

For me the average HR for 75% would be 145 and the 65-70% for max minus resting is 140-148. These are based off a max of 192 and resting of 46. Would those % HR figures tie in with your target of 7 min miling for a 15 miler?

Well, if you looked at my HR figures, I'd come off as positively lazy. My recent HR max based on a recent 1 mile intervals at faster than 5k pace is 182, so a realistic HRmax is probably 185. Not sure about resting hr, but I reckon 45-48 is probably likely.

For a typical 'aerobic' run (12 miles at 7:17/mile) my average HR would be 136. For a 15 mile easy run, @7:30/mile, HR would be 131. So 7 min/miles would probably fall in and around the 75% mark. P&D aerobic runs are 70-81% of Max HR (if I remember correctly).