Is Catholicism Dying Out?

Jannah

Every week at mass, I look around and it's either elderly people or very small children being brought by their parents. I can't name a single person that I know who has made any attempt to find out about their religion through the bible etc, not to mind practice it. It seems that my generation have all become 'seasonal Catholics' in that they only pay any attention to their religion on occassions such as weddings, funerals and Christmas. I have also noticed people being exceptionally bitter; 6th year students throwing around bibles in religion class, telling me that my grand uncle must have been a paedophile because he was a brother and openly mocking- and there is a difference between mocking and stating one's own opinion- all aspects of the religion

Is there any future for Catholicism in Ireland?

ShaShaBear

I am a 21 year old woman who has completely read the bible, front to back, and know a lot of priests. I have my own opinions on what part of this religion I take to heart, but I have full researched it.

old boy

catholitism as it was known is finished, i believe the it will exist in some form or another, as a family member who served in korea and vietnam always says he never met an athiest in a foxhole

kelly1

Jannah wrote: »

Every week at mass, I look around and it's either elderly people or very small children being brought by their parents. I can't name a single person that I know who has made any attempt to find out about their religion through the bible etc, not to mind practice it. It seems that my generation have all become 'seasonal Catholics' in that they only pay any attention to their religion on occassions such as weddings, funerals and Christmas. I have also noticed people being exceptionally bitter; 6th year students throwing around bibles in religion class, telling me that my grand uncle must have been a paedophile because he was a brother and openly mocking- and there is a difference between mocking and stating one's own opinion- all aspects of the religion

Is there any future for Catholicism in Ireland?

Jannah, the Church is certainly getting smaller as people drift away. Some have lost interest as the things of the world seduce them. Others (like I once did) find new age/eastern philosophies attractive as these appeal to pride. Others just want to continue to sin e.g. fornication and don't want to be told that what they're doing is wrong.

I also think that a majority of priests also have a lot to answer for. With very few exceptions, most sermons/homilies are mundane or are delivered without passion. Priests should be inspiring people to live holy lives full of zeal for God. Lack of emphasis on the sacrament of penance is also a problem. I never hear priests encouraging people to go to confession. Why???
People seem to be under the impression that confession is a yearly chore! In reality it's something which should be appreciated for the grace and forgiveness it bestows and should be taken advantage of frequently monthly if not weekly.

To answer your question, the Church will never fade away completely but will be whittled down to a faithful core of believers. Didn't Jesus say that those branches which bear no fruit would be cut off and the remaining ones would be pruned to make them more fruitful? Jesus also wondered whether He would find any faith on earth at His second coming.

I think the passage below summarizes the age we live in.

2 Tim 4:3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.

God bless,
Noel.

Fanny Cradock

Jannah wrote: »

Every week at mass, I look around and it's either elderly people or very small children being brought by their parents. I can't name a single person that I know who has made any attempt to find out about their religion through the bible etc, not to mind practice it. It seems that my generation have all become 'seasonal Catholics' in that they only pay any attention to their religion on occassions such as weddings, funerals and Christmas. I have also noticed people being exceptionally bitter; 6th year students throwing around bibles in religion class, telling me that my grand uncle must have been a paedophile because he was a brother and openly mocking- and there is a difference between mocking and stating one's own opinion- all aspects of the religion

Is there any future for Catholicism in Ireland?

I would think that Catholicism is floundering in Ireland. Indeed, Christianity is largely in retreat throughout Europe. One could argue that Europe's post-Christian landscape is due to enlightenment - the lies of religion being replaced by the truth of materialism. Alternatively one could argue that this decline in belief is simply because our attention is now bent upon the values and rewards of a materialistic outlook.

Nowhere has the decline in Catholicism been as dramatic as it's fall in Ireland. It seems that there is a wave of detest for the organisation. Sometimes this is because of the sins of the Church. At other times I feel that this attitude is due to the RC Church becoming an antiquity to modern life.

This was probably not unexpected by the RC hierarchy. Their church was central to the fabric of Irish society, and as it has been replaced by other values, there was bound to be a backlash. But lest we forget, the world is comprised of more than Europe or the West, and Catholicism seems to be alive and kicking there.

I really don't know what lies in store for Catholicism in Ireland, but the future must be a considerable worry for it members and leaders. Either the RC church needs to become more relevant (without compromising its doctrine) or the focus of society needs to change. However, it's not all doom and gloom. The decline in Catholicism has been to the gain of other Christian denominations, for example, Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism. And this benefit is something that I welcome.

Dades

It should be noted too that the Catholic Church in Ireland has been given a boost (or at least a stay of execution) in recent years with the influx of foreign worshipers, not to mention foreign priests to fill the posts left by the empty seminaries.

--amadeus--

Vocations to the priesthood and religious life are at an all-time low.

from the Irish Times

In fact we are

running out of priests at such a rate that their numbers will have dropped by two thirds in the next 20 years, leaving parishes up and down the land vacant...160 priests died last year with only 9 ordained...average age of a priest in Oreland is now 61..Ireland is teh vocations blackspot of teh world

says the UK Times.

And of course we know that

Between 1996 and 2001, regular Mass attendance, declined further from 60% to 48% (it had been above 90% before 1973)

as Wiki points out and this despite the influx of overseas worshipers.

If the RCC was a business it would be closing down in this country. It is facing unprecedented pressure and has moved from being how we define ourselves through a phase of being what we define ourselves against to a point largely of irrelevance to most people's lives. While some other denominations may be making gains teh general trend across all religion (as in total number of worshipers) seems to be downwards. Certainly the demographics of teh worshipers is inching up teh years, young adults who freely attend mass are in a tiny minority.

I would imagine that in a few years time religious attendance will be a minority persuit and as time goes we will find ourselves more like the Scandanavians where religion in any format is completley divorced from public life, out of teh schools, etc.

Now many would claim that the drop in numbers is not a bad thing - leaving a hard core of "true" believers but taht is another argument. But in answer to the question "is there any future for catholisism in Ireland" I would say yes, but not in a form that current worshipers would recognise.

Poloman

I know one of my friends that goes to mass and thats because of his kids. One friend from everyone I know.

I dont see a future for it and in my opinion rightly so. They got away with literally murder and my grandmother told me stories that would make you squeamish. They brutalised the people of Ireland from reading out how much money a person donated every week to not letting people into the graveyard to be buried.

There are a lot of nice priests out there and i would like to see them do good for themselves.

PDN

--amadeus-- wrote: »

from the Irish Times

In fact we are
says the UK Times.

And of course we know that
as Wiki points out and this despite the influx of overseas worshipers.

If the RCC was a business it would be closing down in this country. It is facing unprecedented pressure and has moved from being how we define ourselves through a phase of being what we define ourselves against to a point largely of irrelevance to most people's lives. While some other denominations may be making gains teh general trend across all religion (as in total number of worshipers) seems to be downwards. Certainly the demographics of teh worshipers is inching up teh years, young adults who freely attend mass are in a tiny minority.

I would imagine that in a few years time religious attendance will be a minority persuit and as time goes we will find ourselves more like the Scandanavians where religion in any format is completley divorced from public life, out of teh schools, etc.

Now many would claim that the drop in numbers is not a bad thing - leaving a hard core of "true" believers but taht is another argument. But in answer to the question "is there any future for catholisism in Ireland" I would say yes, but not in a form that current worshipers would recognise.

I certainly agree that the number of overall church attenders is falling in Ireland. That is due to the implosion of Catholicism here and is a largely cultural trend. Those who thought it was all nonsense anyway can now avoid the Church altogether without suffering social or economic sanctions.

Other denominations are growing, but that growth is certainly less than the corresponding decline in Catholicism.

One interesting factor is that non-Catholic churches are appealing to a much younger demographic. For example, my own church (which is starting a third Sunday service because we can't fit any more people into our building) has less than 10 people aged over 60 on our membership roll.

I wouldn't go writing Catholicism off in Ireland. It is still by far the biggest religious group here and has shown a great capacity in the past for cultural adaptation and for reinventing itself. A big factor may be how long the recession lasts. Churches grow faster during economic uncertainty than during times of prosperity. Some of the young cubs of the Celtic tiger might not prove so dismissive of religion once they start getting the repossession letters from the Building Society.

napapa

The term religion (or other terms like faith, beliefs etc.) will continue to evolve and survive like it has since t = 0, for example Pagans to Greeks, Jews to Christians, even Star Trek to Scientology. People will also want to believe in something greater than us...

It's evolution baby...

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

Some of the young cubs of the Celtic tiger might not prove so dismissive of religion once they start getting the repossession letters from the Building Society.

Why? Do they do cheap re mortgaging? That might actually improve the popularity.

MrP

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

Why? Do they do cheap re mortgaging? That might actually improve the popularity.

No, just that prayer thing that people say is just coincidence. Funnily enough, when they find themselves in deep doodoo they often start asking you to pray for the coincidences to happen for them.

Dades

PDN wrote: »

It is still by far the biggest religious group here and has shown a great capacity in the past for cultural adaptation and for reinventing itself.

Allowing priests to marry, or woman priests is the only adaptation that might save them. Printing mass leaflets in Polish or going back to Latin mass isn't going to stem the tide.

--amadeus--

PDN wrote: »

Churches grow faster during economic uncertainty than during times of prosperity.

That is a fairly damning statistic then - seems to reinforce the idea that people only believe out of fear or selfishness, a sort of this world Pascals Wager.

I agree - I wouldn't write catholisism off in any way shape or form, only a fool would try and claim with certainty that there won't be a RCC in x number of years, irresepctive of trends. I would imagine that there will always be a hardcore of followers (not just of the RCC but of all faiths).

At the same tim ethough I firmly believe that the era of the RCC dominating events and controlling the agenda in this country is well and truely over. Moreover I would be shocked if there is ever a faith based social agenda promoted outside teh chuchyard - I can't see Ireland having teh equivelant of teh US "TheoCon" movement. Instead I would imagine there will be a creeping secularism in public life to the point where the views of the RCC (or any other religious group) are no more important than the views of wiccans in terms of shaping public policy.

PDN

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That is a fairly damning statistic then - seems to reinforce the idea that people only believe out of fear or selfishness, a sort of this world Pascals Wager.

More of a saving statistic than a damning statistic, I would say.

It's not so much fear as an awareness of our own fragility and humanity. After all, Jesus Himself said that it is the sick, not the healthy, who are aware of their need for a physician.

When we fool ourselves into thinking that we're the masters of the universe then we don't see a need for God. That often changes when we realise that we're only human after all.

JimiTime

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That is a fairly damning statistic then - seems to reinforce the idea that some people only believe out of fear or selfishness

Its not damning at all. it reinforces the idea that when people have lost hope in themselves or materialism, they look for hope somewhere else. There are plenty of us who keep that hope hail, rain or shine. However, sometimes it takes a humbling experience for people to look outside themselves. Its like the illustration of the prodigal son. When things are going good, and you feel like you don't need a hell of alot, you can afford to forget God. When times get hard and you've got little, thats when God appeals. Thankfully, at the mo, I've got a comfortable life combined with my spiritual Hope. The great thing about God, is that even if you have forgotten him, and thought that you didn't need him for years, he'll still welcome you back with open arms if you go to him.

kelly1

I think it's fair to say that for large majority of people these days, religion is way down the list of priorities. Not many people want to be "constricted" by moral laws. I know plenty who are "spiritual" but the words such as religious, holy,pure, virginity,virtuous are very much mocked and ridiculed.

Apart from the group of Lay Domincans of which I am a member, and the 60s+ generation, I don't think I could name one person I know who is serious about God.

Luke 18:8 ....yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

Fanny Cradock

If you don't mind me asking, what age bracket would you fit into, Kelly?

kelly1

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, what age bracket would you fit into, Kelly?

37-39
BTW, is it possible to change one's login name? A lot of people seem to think I'm female...

Fanny Cradock

I suffer from the same affliction myself. Anyway, I believe you have to be a subscriber to make any name changes.

Jannah

kelly1 wrote: »

I also think that a majority of priests also have a lot to answer for. With very few exceptions, most sermons/homilies are mundane or are delivered without passion.

Ahhh that reminds me of one day in mass when the priest mentioned that he 'hoped Jews would see the true way' in passing, but when I mentioned it, completely astonished, to my family, they hadn't even been listening. So many people zone out when the priest fails to relate the passage to real life (something which they really should always do, because it is nearly always relevant to modern day circumstances or a metaphor for a broader issue.) That said, I wouldn't fancy the "Praiiiise Jeeeesus" dancing and singing that goes on in the states!!

kelly1 wrote: »

Didn't Jesus say that those branches which bear no fruit would be cut off and the remaining ones would be pruned to make them more fruitful? Jesus also wondered whether He would find any faith on earth at His second coming

Wow, I never knew that was even said- I'll be sure to look it up. Great post, I must say, I'm surprised that anyone thinks that way anymore!

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

the lies of religion being replaced by the truth of materialism.

The truth? What's truthful about materialism? Being materialistic doesn't bring lasting happiness, in fact, I would say that it is a very dangerous idea to think that possessions and wealth are the things in life that are going to bring us joy. Equally, religion doesn't lie. God can't control those who practice religion, He can only set out the guidelines.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

as Wiki points out and this despite the influx of overseas worshipers.

Talking of overseas worshippers, I only realised there was a church with masses catering to the Indian Catholics in Cork- I think it's great that we should have a mix of people, it's a pity that for language reasons they have to go to seperate masses

--amadeus-- wrote: »

as time goes we will find ourselves more like the Scandanavians where religion in any format is completley divorced from public life, out of teh schools, etc.

I actually wouldn't object to that at all. I think religion should be a personal matter and, unless it is a school run by a religious order, I don't see why it should be present. I have three 40 minute classes of religion a week and really, it is treated as a class in which people can either do nothing or rant about how stupid religion is, both of which are counterproductive

kelly1 wrote: »

I know plenty who are "spiritual" but the words such as religious, holy,pure, virginity,virtuous are very much mocked and ridiculed.

True- actually, how many people in Ireland stay virgins until marriage, for that matter? Or practive natural family planning? Its depressing to think how much we have fallen

JimiTime

Jannah wrote: »

The truth? What's truthful about materialism? Being materialistic doesn't bring lasting happiness, in fact, I would say that it is a very dangerous idea to think that possessions and wealth are the things in life that are going to bring us joy. Equally, religion doesn't lie. God can't control those who practice religion, He can only set out the guidelines.

I think you'll find that FC was only pointing to how religion is replaced by those who reject it. I.E. he wasn't saying this was the case, just saying this is how some people view it.

--amadeus--

Slightly OT for a moment it never even occured to me while posting that the word "daming" had religious connotations until PDN mentioned it. Amazing how ingrained religion, religios phraseology and religious symbolism are in everyday life. I wonder how much power they have lost becasue of that; familiarity breeds contempt after all.

I see teh "athiest in the foxhole" analogy of the failing of the celtic tiger. Speaking from deep (and fairly painful) experience though not everybody does convert under difficult conditions. And in the same way that a winning football team brings in fair weather fans the fickle faithful may be as quick to leave the flock when times improve. I certainly wouldn't want to stake my future on thier long term comitment!

kelly1

Jannah wrote: »

Wow, I never knew that was even said- I'll be sure to look it up. Great post, I must say, I'm surprised that anyone thinks that way anymore!

Yeah, it's a passage well worth thinking about...

John 15:1 I am the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples.

God bless,
Noel.

JimiTime

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Slightly OT for a moment it never even occured to me while posting that the word "daming" had religious connotations until PDN mentioned it. Amazing how ingrained religion, religios phraseology and religious symbolism are in everyday life. I wonder how much power they have lost becasue of that; familiarity breeds contempt after all.

Lost me there.

I see teh "athiest in the foxhole" analogy of the failing of the celtic tiger. Speaking from deep (and fairly painful) experience though not everybody does convert under difficult conditions.

Of course. I don't think anyone would disagree. The point was that statistically 'more' people do.

And in the same way that a winning football team brings in fair weather fans the fickle faithful may be as quick to leave the flock when times improve.

Indeed they might.

I certainly wouldn't want to stake my future on thier long term comitment!

Well you wouldn't have to.

In the nicest possible way I ask and with genuine curiosity, is there a point that you are making?

--amadeus--

JimiTime wrote: »

In the nicest possible way I ask and with genuine curiosity, is there a point that you are making?

There is always a point, usually a good one but the elegance of it's expression may sometimes be lost...

On the first point there are any number of words or expressions that people use every day that have thier roots in religious expression. "Damn" is an example; it's a word that has a specific meaning to those with a religious mindset but for most of us it is just a not very naughty swear word. I was idley wondering if those phrases had lost the power they once had through overuse. I am sure that "damn you" once shook people to teh core as they imagined eternal hellfire, now it barely gets a raised eyebrow, just perhaps another example of the loosening grip of religious thought on the general populace.

The rest of the post was more OT. My point was that you might find more people claiming religious faith in a financial crisis but to claim them as a turning of an anti-religious tide may be a bridge too far as I would be surprised if all of them stay religious when conditions improve.

JimiTime

--amadeus-- wrote: »

On the first point there are any number of words or expressions that people use every day that have thier roots in religious expression. "Damn" is an example; it's a word that has a specific meaning to those with a religious mindset but for most of us it is just a not very naughty swear word. I was idley wondering if those phrases had lost the power they once had through overuse. I am sure that "damn you" once shook people to teh core as they imagined eternal hellfire, now it barely gets a raised eyebrow, just perhaps another example of the loosening grip of religious thought on the general populace.

Yeah maybe. Though i think, even now, its all about how phrases are used. If someone says in Jest 'F*** you, you C***', it can be very inoffensive, if the language itself doesn't offend of course. If someone says very seriously, 'Damn you to hell', it can be highly offensive though.

The rest of the post was more OT. My point was that you might find more people claiming religious faith in a financial crisis but to claim them as a turning of an anti-religious tide may be a bridge too far as I would be surprised if all of them stay religious when conditions improve.

Thanks for clarifying.

CDfm

I actually think that church attendence is going up. I see new attendees all the time in my local.That might not be typical as a lot of foreigners live in my area of Dublin.

Also there are many other christian churches such as the Baptists etc which have a lot of support.

Fanny Cradock

Jannah wrote: »

The truth? What's truthful about materialism? Being materialistic doesn't bring lasting happiness, in fact, I would say that it is a very dangerous idea to think that possessions and wealth are the things in life that are going to bring us joy. Equally, religion doesn't lie. God can't control those who practice religion, He can only set out the guidelines.

I probably wasn't being very clear.

What I was actually referring to was philosophical materialism, i.e. the belief that there is only the universe (and everything within) and there is no place for God. This is quite similar to metaphysical naturalism - again, this philosophy states that there is only nature and no God.

I don't deny that people will seek to replace God with material goods. Quite the opposite, actually. Further to this, as a Christian, I subscribe to neither of these views. I was just trying to present the possible philosophies of others.

CDfm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I probably wasn't being very clear.

What I was actually referring to was philosophical materialism, i.e. the belief that there is only the universe (and everything within) and there is no place for God. This is quite similar to metaphysical naturalism - again, this philosophy states that there is only nature and no God.

I don't deny that people will seek to replace God with material goods. Quite the opposite, actually. Further to this, as a Christian, I subscribe to neither of these views. I was just trying to present the possible philosophies of others.

And its getting a bit exclusive to be Catholic in London - so that side of it suits my inner snob which I havent conquered just yet.

evil-monkey

Jannah wrote: »

Is there any future for Catholicism in Ireland?

I would think not. I mean if we all ask ourselves, honestly, if there was a poll done tomorrow, how many under 25s in Ireland are practising Catholics??

Seanot

Jannah wrote: »

Is there any future for Catholicism in Ireland?

Yes there is a future for christianity, Just like we did 40 years ago, sending missionaries to Africa. Now there is healthy population in Africa and there are now coming here to help us, South America is increasily on the up and has strong christianity. Europe in general is going down and "seems " to be losing faith in god . Since Vatican 2 has been in place there has been effort to shift this and there is new evangilization going on throughout Europe!!

As for Ireland this generation have lost faith but there is still a stong number people in the church and people are searching

evil-monkey

Seanot wrote: »

Yes there is a future for christianity, Just like we did 40 years ago, sending missionaries to Africa. Now there is healthy population in Africa, South America is increasily on the up and has strong christianity. Europe in general is going down and has become . Since Vatican 2 has been in place there has been effort to shift this and there is new evangilization going on throughout Europe!!

As for Ireland this generation have lost faith and but there will be hope!!

i can't comment for Europe, but as for Ireland, I don't know where this hope is going to come from. i think the main problem the Church in Ireland faces is that a lot of generations were Church-goers mainly because their folks bred it into em. problem is, a lot of the younger generations will not do this with their kids, meaning in 50 years time, there may well be no one going to mass...

Seanot

evil-monkey wrote: »

i can't comment for Europe, but as for Ireland, I don't know where this hope is going to come from. i think the main problem the Church in Ireland faces is that a lot of generations were Church-goers mainly because their folks bred it into em. problem is, a lot of the younger generations will not do this with their kids, meaning in 50 years time, there may well be no one going to mass...

I see your point, But the way soceity is going today there needs to something there.....as in people are searching for happiness in there lives but always seem to just out of reach. The high rate of depresstion mental illnesss, suicide. People are looking for something you can even see online "the weird stuff people do " just to feel valued. Something will crack and Ireland will be fruitful

evil-monkey

Seanot wrote: »

I see your point, But the way soceity is going today there needs to something there.....as in people are searching for happiness in there lives but always seem to just out of reach. The high rate of depresstion mental illnesss, suicide. People are looking for something you can even see online "the weird stuff people do " just to feel valued. Something will crack and Ireland will be fruitful

ya but if your parents never sent you to mass, you're not all of a sudden going to start going. it's simple logic; the majority of younger people today are giving up on their faith, everyone has to accept that, and this is even though they were raised otherwise. these people will not drill it into their kids, as it was into us, and thus when the time comes that they do seek meaning, a lot of them won't turn to the Church due to their upbringing. Argueing that Catholicism will have a comeback in Ireland because people need a God to turn to is like argueing the point that God f*cks us over so that we need him. It's catch-22 from the point of view of the Church.

(edit: on a totally freaky note, that brought my post count to 666)

Seanot

evil-monkey wrote: »

ya but if your parents never sent you to mass, you're not all of a sudden going to start going. it's simple logic; the majority of younger people today are giving up on their faith, everyone has to accept that, and this is even though they were raised otherwise. these people will not drill it into their kids, as it was into us, and thus when the time comes that they do seek meaning, a lot of them won't turn to the Church due to their upbringing. Argueing that Catholicism will have a comeback in Ireland because people need a God to turn to is like argueing the point that God f*cks us over so that we need him. It's catch-22 from the point of view of the Church.

I agree you have to accept to the family you are born into, no matter what religion you are born in to. There strong similarity between all religions( although I know there are many big differences). Not raising your kids to be a christian or any religion for that matter, dose not mean you do not join the church.......Its an adult faith and alot of older people experincing this are getting to know god and even getting baptised in there later years. Peoples relationship with god will change and become stronger, people have there own way in talking to god, even if they do not go to church they still have this relationship. Catholicism in Ireland has almost become a rule and new life needs to brought to Ireland church , as in God wants us to be happy , god loves you no matter what. God is always there in a situation where there is no hope eg : family member with cancer.

CDfm

evil-monkey wrote: »

ya but if your parents never sent you to mass, you're not all of a sudden going to start going. it's simple logic; the majority of younger people today are giving up on their faith, everyone has to accept that, and this is even though they were raised otherwise. these people will not drill it into their kids, as it was into us, and thus when the time comes that they do seek meaning, a lot of them won't turn to the Church due to their upbringing. Argueing that Catholicism will have a comeback in Ireland because people need a God to turn to is like argueing the point that God f*cks us over so that we need him. It's catch-22 from the point of view of the Church.

(edit: on a totally freaky note, that brought my post count to 666)

i dont think its the drilling in that counts its being familar with you beliefs and church and not being ashamed of them.

Im not hung up on what people think - I have no problem with telling anyone who laughs at my beliefs to f*** off- I used to live in Co Meath and thats their take on muscular christianity.

Its up to believers to be OK and cool about their own beliefs -then maybe others will be too

evil-monkey

Seanot wrote: »

I agree you have to accept to the family you are born into, no matter what religion you are born in to. There strong similarity between all religions( although I know there are many big differences). Not raising your kids to be a christian or any religion for that matter, dose not mean you do not join the church.......Its an adult faith and alot of older people experincing this are getting to know god and even getting baptised in there later years. Peoples relationship with god will change and become stronger, people have there own way in talking to god, even if they do not go to church they still have this relationship. Catholicism in Ireland has almost become a rule and new life needs to brought to Ireland church , as in God wants us to be happy , god loves you no matter what. God is always there in a situation where there is no hope eg : family member with cancer.

people do join the Catholic Church in later years, but the majority of people don't. Sure God might want us to be happy, sure he may give us "hope" (while it's science that actually does the saving) when a loved when is dying, but the fact of it is, the youth of Ireland are loosing their faith. Why?? Well maybe they need a lil more than the fact that God loves us all. Don't we all have that anyway with our mothers? If the Church wants to save itself, to get young people back in the doors, they have to change radically, radically. Or else the decline in numbers as pointed out by the OP will just continue until it is too late.

evil-monkey

CDfm wrote: »

i dont think its the drilling in that counts its being familar with you beliefs and church and not being ashamed of them.

Im not hung up on what people think - I have no problem with telling anyone who laughs at my beliefs to f*** off- I used to live in Co Meath and thats their take on muscular christianity.

Its up to believers to be OK and cool about their own beliefs -then maybe others will be too

no one is laughing at your beliefs. my point is, the Church will continue to lose numbers, because the "traditional" Irish family, where your mother drags you off to mass by the ear, will be gone with the next generation.

The majority of young people don't go to mass, therefore the majority of their kids won't either. If they choose to of their own accord, fair play to em, but the most of them won't. Thus, the numbers will continue to twindle...

Seanot

CDfm wrote: »

i dont think its the drilling in that counts its being familar with you beliefs and church and not being ashamed of them.

Im not hung up on what people think - I have no problem with telling anyone who laughs at my beliefs to f*** off- I used to live in Co Meath and thats their take on muscular christianity.

Its up to believers to be OK and cool about their own beliefs -then maybe others will be too

No need to take offence. He is just pointing out the things that most people think ....its the likes of you that turning people away. You must try to disscuss the issues help people to see your side of the story.

I dont want to seem to be giving out, but you need to read the posts!!!!!

Seanot

evil-monkey wrote: »

people do join the Catholic Church in later years, but the majority of people don't. Sure God might want us to be happy, sure he may give us "hope" (while it's science that actually does the saving) when a loved when is dying, but the fact of it is, the youth of Ireland are loosing their faith. Why?? Well maybe they need a lil more than the fact that God loves us all. Don't we all have that anyway with our mothers? If the Church wants to save itself, to get young people back in the doors, they have to change radically, radically. Or else the decline in numbers as pointed out by the OP will just continue until it is too late.

people joining the church at older age is happening alot all around the world!! Its not about converting but a belief in god. I dont want to go down the typical route of saying God gave us free will to do what we wantt, but its the truth. God allows suffering in our lives so we can come closer to god. Not all mother are loving!!

I agree the church needs to change radically!!! and this is happening but in minority groups the church need to embrace a new lease of life!!!

evil-monkey

Seanot wrote: »

people joining the church at older age is happening alot all around the world!!

if the Catholic Church in Ireland are going to save themselves, they don't need old people, if there's one thing the Church doesn't need its more old people. they need to get the youth back in their doors, not because the mothers want em there, but because they want to be there themselves. my guess is that they will fail in their efforts to do this, but best of luck to them.

Tusky

I am a 23 year old male and am in no way religious (not even baptized). I know of one person in my age group that actively goes to church.

I definitely think its dying out. One of the big reasons that a lot of people get their kids baptized and bring them to church is due to pressure from parents/grand parents. Once that generation dies out I think we will see a huge drop in people attending church. As another poster said, its mainly old people and children that go now.

I think religion in general will eventually die out and I think it will be a major major step in the evolution of humanity and society as a whole. It wont happen soon, but in a few hundreds years I can see people reading about religion in history books and laughing at just how ridiculous and old fashioned it sounds.

CDfm

Seanot wrote: »

No need to take offence. He is just pointing out the things that most people think ....its the likes of you that turning people away. You must try to disscuss the issues help people to see your side of the story.

I dont want to seem to be giving out, but you need to read the posts!!!!!

It does bother me that attendences are down- but on a general level ive always been against baptism of everyone and universal communion and confirmation when the parents are not practicing.In the states when my nephew was confirmed his sponsor had to have a letter from a priest and attend a course on their duties and responsibilites to act as a sponsor..

I think its a waste of resources to give it away to people who dont value it and it cheapens the sarcraments- I think people who are not members of a congregation and who want to marry or get buried from a Catholic Church should pay.

I would see nothing wrong with charging anywhere between Euro 3 to 5 grand for a church as a venue for a marriage cermony -if you dont charge it is not respected.

kelly1

evil-monkey wrote: »

Argueing that Catholicism will have a comeback in Ireland because people need a God to turn to is like argueing the point that God f*cks us over so that we need him. It's catch-22 from the point of view of the Church.

It can actually be a good thing the people suffer trials and tribulations. If life ran smoothly without suffering, we would probably forget about God completely.
That wouldn't do us much good come judgment day!

Fanny Cradock

Tusky wrote: »

I am a 23 year old male and am in no way religious (not even baptized). I know of one person in my age group that actively goes to church.

I definitely think its dying out. One of the big reasons that a lot of people get their kids baptized and bring them to church is due to pressure from parents/grand parents. Once that generation dies out I think we will see a huge drop in people attending church. As another poster said, its mainly old people and children that go now.

I think religion in general will eventually die out and I think it will be a major major step in the evolution of humanity and society as a whole. It wont happen soon, but in a few hundreds years I can see people reading about religion in history books and laughing at just how ridiculous and old fashioned it sounds.

Well, unfortunately for your theory, religion is growing. But let us meet up in 200 years and see who is right.

CDfm

kelly1 wrote: »

It can actually be a good thing the people suffer trials and tribulations. If life ran smoothly without suffering, we would probably forget about God completely.
That wouldn't do us much good come judgment day!

its not suffering as such its being able to triumph over adversity and knowing yopu are not doing it on your own- you have resources and the knowledge that others have done so - and you have a church community.

they are all worth a lot.

non catholics and non churchgoers in general dont have these things and miss out - they know they are there.

my view is their loss

--amadeus--

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, unfortunately for your theory, religion is growing.

Wow, sweeping assertion.

Every single statistic I have seen points to the opposite, in terms of total attendence globally and in the developed world in particular everything I have seen points to dwindling numbers. Even more so withing the frame of reference of this thread (Irish catholisism). I posted links earlier in the thread to back up my claim that religion is a fast fading force in this country perhaps you could provide some evidence that religion is growing.

(Unles of course you are refering to religious extremism, which does indeed seem to be on the rise)

evil-monkey

kelly1 wrote: »

It can actually be a good thing the people suffer trials and tribulations. If life ran smoothly without suffering, we would probably forget about God completely.
That wouldn't do us much good come judgment day!

I'd rather see life without suffering being honest but that's neither here nor there.

CDfm wrote: »

It does bother me that attendences are down- but on a general level ive always been against baptism of everyone and universal communion and confirmation when the parents are not practicing.In the states when my nephew was confirmed his sponsor had to have a letter from a priest and attend a course on their duties and responsibilites to act as a sponsor..

I think its a waste of resources to give it away to people who dont value it and it cheapens the sarcraments- I think people who are not members of a congregation and who want to marry or get buried from a Catholic Church should pay.

I would see nothing wrong with charging anywhere between Euro 3 to 5 grand for a church as a venue for a marriage cermony -if you dont charge it is not respected.

i think this is a good point in places. the Church should do something to decide who is and who isn't a true member of their congregation. the problem is, where do you draw the line? for example, if a non-religious person met a devout Catholic, and was willing to marry in a Church out of his love for her; should they then have to pay more? Should she be punished for her choice of life partner? A good theory if it was implemented correctly. Of course, one could argue by this logic, that Catholics should then pay more for sexual contraceptives, as they fundamentally disagree with them.

Tusky wrote: »

I definitely think its dying out. One of the big reasons that a lot of people get their kids baptized and bring them to church is due to pressure from parents/grand parents. Once that generation dies out I think we will see a huge drop in people attending church. As another poster said, its mainly old people and children that go now.

I think this is the key point here. It's the coming generations that the Church have to worry about. They have lost many of the youth of today, and in turn, will lose their children...

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, unfortunately for your theory, religion is growing. But let us meet up in 200 years and see who is right.

well that's settled then. we'll meet back here in 200 years

CDfm wrote: »

its not suffering as such its being able to triumph over adversity and knowing yopu are not doing it on your own- you have resources and the knowledge that others have done so - and you have a church community.

they are all worth a lot.

non catholics and non churchgoers in general dont have these things and miss out - they know they are there.

my view is their loss

unless of course the adversity you have to triumph over was molestation by a Catholic priest...

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Even more so withing the frame of reference of this thread (Irish catholisism).

That is key. We are getting WAY off topic. The OP's original point was that Catholicism is dying in Ireland. That is the issue at the heart of this, and I agree with the OP on this one. I'm not saying it's for better or for worse, but it is happening. Churches are being emptied, people raised as Catholics are forgetting their religion now that they aren't being forced by their mother, teach etc. The Church is critisised day in day out, and whether all this is due or not, it is happening. The fact of the matter is this; the majority of young Irish people are no longer practising Catholics - and that is what this debate is all about. Can anyone here, honestly, tell me that they do not believe Catholicism in Ireland is dying? Sure it may be stronger with individuals, but the general public, without a shadow of a doubt, are turning away from religion...

djeddy

Jannah wrote: »

Every week at mass, I look around and it's either elderly people or very small children being brought by their parents. I can't name a single person that I know who has made any attempt to find out about their religion through the bible etc, not to mind practice it. It seems that my generation have all become 'seasonal Catholics' in that they only pay any attention to their religion on occassions such as weddings, funerals and Christmas. I have also noticed people being exceptionally bitter; 6th year students throwing around bibles in religion class, telling me that my grand uncle must have been a paedophile because he was a brother and openly mocking- and there is a difference between mocking and stating one's own opinion- all aspects of the religion

Is there any future for Catholicism in Ireland?

Thankfully i think there is a bright future for catholicism in ireland,

People need to understand that the centre of the catholic faith is the mass,

That the host they receive is truly jesus christ,

I think the irish of old well understood this and risked their earthly lives when attending mass in the penal days,

Driven in to the hills and hunted down for their catholic faith,

http://www.bebo.com/Campese_Callaghan

--amadeus--

djeddy wrote: »

Thankfully i think there is a bright future for catholicism in ireland,

An interesting viewpoint and belief. Mind if I ask why you believe his in the face of what many would feel to be mounting evidence to the contrary?