Fear of Mortality?

Evil-p

Hi all,

This is a bit of a weird one but I think it belongs in this section. I was raised catholic like most people in Ireland and am in my mid twenties now. I am a very scientific person and have ceased to believe in god some years ago. There is just too much evidence showing religion to be the work of man and not of a divine source. However along with this came a fear of death that I have not been able to shake. I am a fairly level and sensible person and do not have phobias of anything else (even spiders).

Since I stopped believing in god and religion I feel like death is such a final thing and the thought of the permanency of it scares me. I hate the thought of leaving the people I love so much and never seeing them again in all of time. I know this sounds kinda dramatic buts its the way I feel. Its mainly in the evening that this plays on my mind and I often feel anxious and distracted because of it. I haven't really spoken to anyone about this as it seems a bit strange. We are all going to die so why is this bothering me so much? I am in good health and there is no reason to think I will drop dead anytime soon.

I am curious how other people who don’t believe in god deal with death? Do you believe that death is the end and what is your opinions and near death experiences?

Thanks, I must sound like a weirdo!

Dave!

Mind me asking what age you are OP?

I'm only 20, so perhaps the finality of death has not struck me yet. The only people close to me who have died are my grandparents, and even with those, I was too young to appreciate what happened with 3 of them. I was old enough when my mother's mother died (though I was still very young), so that was quite upsetting, even though I was able to console myself with the notion that she was gone to heaven.

Every so often I give some thought to the fact that my parents are going to die eventually, and that is quite disconcerting indeed, but in general when I think of my own mortality I have the luxury of being able to say "save for some unfortunate accident, I have a good 40+ years left".

I don't know how I'll deal with things when I'm faced with the prospect of a parent dying, or in a few decades when my own time is running out, or if I should contract some terminal illness!

I'm afraid I can't offer any advice, just commiserate to some degree! Maybe I'll go talk to a priest

Evil-p

I'm 26! Pretty young to be panicking about dying!!!

There is some physicology that this fear of death is linked to a fear of not living your life to the full? Well according to the internet........and we know thats always right!

I have an excellent life, long term partner and have travelled the world so i'm a pretty content person bar this crazy fear of the only thing in life that is not changable!!!!!!

I envy the duvet that is religon! It really cushions the realitys but i cannot believe, its just too far fetched. I'll be raising my kids of atheists, at least then they won't get a shock when they realise there is no white bloke with a beard up in the clouds!!

Dades

To be honest, I think the best tonic for a fear of death is to get busy living, and not to dwell on it after dark.

Perhaps it's a symptom of my atheism but I don't have enough hours in the day to do all the things I want to do. If you live a busy, productive life, you may be less inclined to concern yourself with things that are out of your control. There's no magic answer, but acceptance and a willingness to move on and make the most of the time you have is a great start. [EDIT I see you've been busy!]

Also, it can't help to find a real life person to talk to about it too, if you know someone with a sympathetic ear. You might be surprised at who you know that might be thinking the same thoughts. None of us are exempt!

seamus

I have my own thoughts on this which I've spotted from watching people's actions and comments in real life.

I would say it's natural at this stage of your life to be worrying about death. When you're a child and a teenager, you go from complete ignorant bliss to arrogant bliss, believing that you're invincible.

Then you hit your late twenties and early thirties. Suddenly, a long walk the day before leaves your legs feeling a little bit tired the next day. You start hearing about people that you knew from school or even futher back who've died from relatively natural causes - cancer for example.
The whole reality of your own mortality suddenly exists, and you feel the odds of you being gone tomorrow are very real, and you haven't done a fraction of the things you really wanted to. Put simply, you like being here, you want to keep being here, and the thought of not being here any more (in fact, not being any where at all), is pretty scary.

It's interesting that you talk about the duvet of religion. I've heard remarks from a number of people now (women in particular), who aren't all that concerned with the vast majority of religious beliefs or aspects, but who believe that heaven exists, categorically refuse to believe (or even consider) otherwise and are willing to do whatever it takes to ensure that they get there.

Facing the thought that when you're gone, you're gone, is scary. I can understand a person's need to cling on, with everything they can muster, to the hope that there is more. I'm sure that if you can let go and come to "accept" that the end is the end, then you can actually be very happy and zen about the whole thing. If something else does come later on, that's an added bonus

If you figure out how to let go of that hope, let me know?

jill_valentine

The prospect of losing my family and friends frightens me, but as for my own death, it doesn't bother me at all. When it happens, it happens, I mean the process will probably suck, but the actual concept of death itself doesn't daunt me.

Lucas10101

Yeah, I can sympathise with your position but for me things are clear cut. When I die, I won't be completely gone anyway. My atoms will still exist to some extent and they will exist for the eternity of time, and even when not, I'll still be a % of the Universes energy, that existed before me, and through me, then after me...so my afterlife is wherever my atoms take me in the Universe. That's not a bad prospect even though we won't be conscious of it when we are whizzing through space upto and forever. So an atom in my eye might be at one end of the Universe with one on my anus being at the other. When your parents die, they won't know as they'll be dead, and of course it'll be upsetting for you...but with time, you'll accept it as with anything and things will move on. As for yourself, well I find my note above comforting enough, but you won't know you'll be dead, so don't worry about it, just live the life you have now as best you can i.e the part you ARE aware of!

Delirium

Actually used to panic about dying at 7 years old due to the death of mother. From experience I would say that you could spend your life worrying about death or just get on with your life. It does help to talk to others about it, my brothers were sharing much of the same fears.
Also, is it a fear of the finality of death or the fear of not achieving certain goals before you die?

studiorat

People dying is crap, worst thing that's happend to me was other people dying.

I'm not worried about my own death though, except for maybe there being pain involved and the people I'd leave behind. Pain being the main one:D

I think as long as you leave behind a memory of some of the good things you've done and maybe even set an example you'll be around forever.

Latchy

Suppose as somebody said if your keeping in busy in your life and Living ,as in the now ' then you can push these thoughts which we all get, to one side .

It hit me really hard last week and brought home the reality of how quickly life can be snuffed out when a young welsh family of 6 all died in a horrific motorway crash here in UK .Mum and dad were in their 30's ,the youngest of the 4 children were 16 months and 6 weeks .The emergency services were so traumatised ,having never seen such carnage .A whole family wiped out in less than a minutes,no time to say goodbyes or nothing .A part of you likes to think those poor unforunetes went straight to a place called heaven

studiorat

latchyco wrote: »

.A part of you likes to think those poor unforunetes went straight to a place called heaven

Eh. Sorry, but no. Whatever about God but heaven and hell? Not a chance.

Eternity with the same ego? No thanks...

Actually to tell you the truth, it may have been a mercy that none did survive in a strange kind of logic.

A good friend of mine was traveling in India, he was going along in a bus when a truck passed them carrying men going to work in the trailer. The came upon the truck again later at the bottom of a ravine in a river. Everybody got out and searched for survivours though there were none. The cops eventually arrived and every one went off on their way again, the thing being that death wasn't as big a thing as it is this side of the planet.

Latchy

studiorat wrote: »

Eh. Sorry, but no. Whatever about God but heaven and hell? Not a chance.

Eternity with the same ego? No thanks...

Actually to tell you the truth, it may have been a mercy that none did survive in a strange kind of logic.

I can understand that ok, and was just thinking of the finalitry of it ,a whole young family killed in the snap of 2 fingers in a motorway fireball .

A good friend of mine was traveling in India, he was going along in a bus when a truck passed them carrying men going to work in the trailer. The came upon the truck again later at the bottom of a ravine in a river. Everybody got out and searched for survivours though there were none. The cops eventually arrived and every one went off on their way again, the thing being that death wasn't as big a thing as it is this side of the planet.

Which is maybe why some terrorist group see killing thousends of westeners as more profitable due to how much value we put on life and living

studiorat

It's certainly tragic.

On the other hand while it's true of Hindu people I wouldn't be sure of the mindset of yer average terrorist. Don't they think they are going to paradise or something?

Latchy

rewarded with 50 virgins or more ? Your average

suicide bomber

has no such worries of fear or mortality .

T-K-O

I have a science degree so naturally I think about situations in a logical manner, but I would not agree that there is no such thing as God or Heaven.

Now when I say God/Heaven I do not necessarily mean the traditional sense...

People like to say that there is no evidence and that is true but there is nothing to disproved the notion. The problem with beliefs such as these are extremists.

Even the great Stephen Hawkins said that something had to cause the initial spark and I agree with that. For me I take certain aspects from certain Religions that apply to me personally.
The Human body is an extraordinary thing and IMO capable of much more, who knows what life will be like in 100 years from now.

I guess this does not answer the initial question, all I can say to that is death is inevitable and must be accepted it is up to each one of us to live a fulfilling life. The best advice anyone could give to another person is to enjoy every second.

Dave!

T-K-O wrote: »

I have a science degree so naturally I think about situations in a logical manner


I would not agree that there is no such thing as God or Heaven.


People like to say that there is no evidence and that is true but there is nothing to disproved the notion.

Even the great Stephen Hawkins said that something had to cause the initial spark and I agree with that.

You sure you're a scientist mate?

5uspect

T-K-O wrote: »

People like to say that there is no evidence and that is true but there is nothing to disproved the notion. The problem with beliefs such as these are extremists.

It is not extremist to consider an idea unworthy of consideration because there is no evidence. It is the default scientific position.

seamus

T-K-O wrote: »

People like to say that there is no evidence and that is true but there is nothing to disproved the notion. The problem with beliefs such as these are extremists.

Since you have a science degree, you'll understand the scientific method.

That is;

So without evidence, the notion is not proven. Things are very rarely disproven unless it's a very specific notion such as "Wood is made of fire". They're normally either "proven" or "not proven".

Pompey Magnus

I think I am less worried about death now that I am an atheist than I was Christian. The idea of judgement after death really scared me and even living a pretty good life as a Christian was not certain to ensure salvation because the rules were so incredibly vague. The very real prospect of me or a person I love spending eternity being tortured in Hell was terrifying and it was only since I stopped believing that I have managed to lose this fear.

The quote by Mark Twain on death I found very helpful in removing my worry about the concept of eternal nothingness in a Universe without life after death:

"I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."

runswithascript

Make everyday count and appreciate how much more beautiful the universe is now that you know it was not created my some sadistic and vain grey bearded old man living in the clouds.

Zillah

I can honestly say that I have no fear of death, in principle. I'm sure I'd still be afraid of guns, tigers, fires and all sorts of other things that can kill me, but the principle of death itself is more unfortunate and unpleasant than it is fearsome.

Oblivion, by definition, is nothing to be afraid of.

T-K-O

Dave! wrote: »

You sure you're a scientist mate?

Don't take my word for it, ask Hawkins.

T-K-O

seamus wrote: »

Since you have a science degree, you'll understand the scientific method.

That is;

So without evidence, the notion is not proven. Things are very rarely disproven unless it's a very specific notion such as "Wood is made of fire". They're normally either "proven" or "not proven".

Did you ever believe in something that you couldn't prove ?

It is totally ignorant to dismiss something just because you cannot touch or see it. Science is confined by parameters and is not capable of proving the non-existence of anything.

Science is based on what we have learned over many years so you could say that its building blocks are firmly in the past. Science evolves all the time what was impossible a few decades ago is now part of every day life.

seamus

T-K-O wrote: »

Don't take my word for it, ask Hawkins.

"Something had to cause the initial spark". Of course it did. But that's not an argument for God. What's to say that the initial "spark" wasn't just a physical law? If the death/rebirth theory of the universe is correct, then it's possible that the "spark" is just another part of a standard cycle of the universe, continually exploding and imploding over and over and over.
Outside of that, you can't say, "There must have been something before" because the concept of "before" isn't even valid. The big bang is time zero for this universe. There is no time "-1" before the big bang. It's a perfectly valid theory to say that the universe and everything in it, just "is" and wasn't created at any point.

It is totally ignorant to dismiss something just because you cannot touch or see it. Science is confined by parameters and is not capable of proving the non-existence of anything.

Science is based on what we have learned over many years so you could say that its building blocks are firmly in the past. Science evolves all the time what was impossible a few decades ago is now part of every day life.

Agreed completely. Which is why we say "not proven" instead of simply trashing arguments that we can't prove. You can take it for granted that there are big piles of unproven theories, many of which may or may not come into mainstream acceptance in the future.

The big thing is when you have two mutually exclusive arguments. When you can find evidence to support one theory, by definition you now have evidence which contradicts the other. That doesn't mean that the other is necessarily "wrong", but as you gain more and more evidence, the probability of the other argument being proven comes closer to zero.

For example, imagine a theory that humans can fly. The contradicting theory is that humans can't fly. These are mutually exclusive. They can't both be true. Evidence so far supports the theory that humans can't fly. That doesn't mean that we can aboslutely say that humans can't fly (maybe we just haven't figured out how), but the volume of evidence in support of the "can't" theory means that we can safely disregard the "can" theory as being very very very unlikely.

Granted, this only one method of proving/disproving something, and some things cannot be proven by contradiction. However the basic theory is that supporting evidence increases the likilhood of something being true. Having no evidence by definition reduces the liklihood of something being true.

T-K-O

seamus wrote: »

"Something had to cause the initial spark". Of course it did. But that's not an argument for God. What's to say that the initial "spark" wasn't just a physical law? If the death/rebirth theory of the universe is correct, then it's possible that the "spark" is just another part of a standard cycle of the universe, continually exploding and imploding over and over and over.
Outside of that, you can't say, "There must have been something before" because the concept of "before" isn't even valid. The big bang is time zero for this universe. There is no time "-1" before the big bang. It's a perfectly valid theory to say that the universe and everything in it, just "is" and wasn't created at any point.

Then answer me this, why do we not have a scientific answer to prove this??

Saying it just is, is like that graph above about ignorance and evidence.

Maybe that "initial spark" was outside of nature just as a higher being would be, thus throwing the explanation out of bounds so to speak for science as we know it.

seamus

T-K-O wrote: »

Then answer me this, why do we not have a scientific answer to prove this??

Saying it just is, is like that graph above about ignorance and evidence.

Maybe that "initial spark" was outside of nature just as a higher being would be, thus throwing the explanation out of bounds so to speak for science as we know it.

THEORY

Saying it just "is" and then refusing to accept any other possibility would be religion.

To say that the initial spark was outside nature, assumes that there was an initial spark at all.

Again, it's a valid theory. But that's all it is. Why has religion no proof for this?

Zillah

T-K-O wrote: »

Did you ever believe in something that you couldn't prove ? It is totally ignorant to dismiss something just because you cannot touch or see it.

The very fact that you even think such a comment is anything other than meaningless contrariness says bad things about your grasp of the philosophy of science.

May I ask what is your field?

Zillah

seamus wrote: »

Again, it's a valid theory.

"Hypothesis"!

Dades

I fear for the mortality of this thread unless this pointless tangent is dropped.

Pompey Magnus

Dades wrote: »

I fear for the mortality of this thread unless this pointless tangent is dropped.

Every tangent, by definition, has a point. It would be just a line otherwise.


... bad maths joke, sorry .

Evil-p

Well that took off in an interesting direction !!!

I appreciate what people are saying about just getting on with living life and not thinking about death but quite obvioulsy I am having a problem doing that hence the initial post!

Prehaps this realisation of death in a very real sense as in truly knowing that you will die is something to happens to people at some point of your life or the other and i will process it over time.

I appreciate all the scientific arguement, although i'm an engineer not a scientist! I do believe that we exist in the sense that energy cannot be created or destroyed but that is faint consolation strangly enough. In fact that song " the highway man" explains my beliefs on death. However for all of that, prehaps it is the loss of consciousness that i am scared off! That the thought of the essense of who you are being lost!

T-K-O

seamus wrote: »

THEORY

Saying it just "is" and then refusing to accept any other possibility would be religion.

To say that the initial spark was outside nature, assumes that there was an initial spark at all.

Again, it's a valid theory. But that's all it is. Why has religion no proof for this?

Didn't you says, it just is? They are all just theories and personally I am open to them all. Your comment about refusing to accept any other possibility places and huge number of people into one tiny box so I cannot agree with that.

IMO when people talk about Religion the guys on the other side of the table straight away think of the stereotype. I.E A person that goes to church and follows their Religion to the extreme. Where as people like myself believe that there are so many unanswered questions and the possibility of a god like figure is just as likely as the just "is" theory.

People within the Science community tend to have a superiority complex about such matters and dismiss other view points. When is is very clear that science cannot prove the non-existence of anything.

T-K-O

Zillah wrote: »

The very fact that you even think such a comment is anything other than meaningless contrariness says bad things about your grasp of the philosophy of science.

May I ask what is your field?

Irrelevant, I can stick on my science cap and quote the text books.

seamus

T-K-O wrote: »

Didn't you says, it just is?

No. This is what I said:

It's a perfectly valid theory to say that the universe and everything in it, just "is" and wasn't created at any point.

Your comment about refusing to accept any other possibility places and huge number of people into one tiny box so I cannot agree with that.

But plenty (if not most) people do this. I don't mind people having a preference for one particular hypothesis* but the vast majority of religious people on this planet have their one belief and refuse to entertain anything else. This, by the way, is still the tangent that Dades didn't want to see.

Although it does come back to my first post nicely. There are a lot of people who refuse to even entertain the possibility that there is nothing after death, because that possibility scares the living **** out of them.

*Louis Pasteur himself of pasteurisation preferred his theory of microbial life so much that he supressed evidence from his experiments which supported his opponents' theories

Dades

Don't think I didn't see what you did there!

Next OT post will be 'dealt with'. This thread deserves more.

T-K-O

seamus wrote: »

No. This is what I said:

But plenty (if not most) people do this. I don't mind people having a preference for one particular hypothesis* but the vast majority of religious people on this planet have their one belief and refuse to entertain anything else. This, by the way, is still the tangent that Dades didn't want to see.

Although it does come back to my first post nicely. There are a lot of people who refuse to even entertain the possibility that there is nothing after death, because that possibility scares the living **** out of them.

*Louis Pasteur himself of pasteurisation preferred his theory of microbial life so much that he supressed evidence from his experiments which supported his opponents' theories

And that is the problem, people from what ever side of the table closing their mind to the other point of view.

I agree that people are scared and Religion can be used as a comfort tool, Personally I have no fear what so ever of dying. I am just open to the possibility that there is something else out there, what ever that may be

Goduznt Xzst

T-K-O wrote: »

I am just open to the possibility that there is something else out there, what ever that may be

Are you as equally open to the chance that this "something" is the Flying Spaghetti monster as you are to it being Yahweh? If not then you are illogically biased and your opinion is not relevant in the field of science.

Personally, I fear death, who doesn't. I don't think about it however and accept its inevitability.

I do think about the fragility of the human body though. I fractured my ankle a few years back and it still twinges now. I'm aware that I will probably die with these twinges still happening.

IMO though, things can always be worse. Being aware of reality has also given me the ability to see the world in perspective. The life I'm going to lead, regardless of what ills are ahead of me, has still been better than at least 95% of the human population on this planet.

T-K-O

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Are you as equally open to the chance that this "something" is the Flying Spaghetti monster as you are to it being Yahweh? If not then you are illogically biased and your opinion is not relevant in the field of science.

Personally, I fear death, who doesn't. I don't think about it however and accept its inevitability.

I do think about the fragility of the human body though. I fractured my ankle a few years back and it still twinges now. I'm aware that I will probably die with these twinges still happening.

IMO though, things can always be worse. Being aware of reality has also given me the ability to see the world in perspective. The life I'm going to lead, regardless of what ills are ahead of me, has still been better than at least 95% of the human population on this planet.

I never said is was God but a "something" a higher force of sorts. So my opinion is not biased or closed off to any possibility.

Honestly I do not fear death maybe that will changed as I near the end but I don't think so.

Being aware of ones mortality gives us the tools to appreciate and enjoy life to max.

runswithascript

Epicurus teaches us that death is nothing to us.

Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. It is nothing, then, either to the living or to the dead, for with the living it is not and the dead exist no longer.

When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.

Find here his complete Letter to Menoeceus which deals with the issue.

ChocolateSauce

I look forward to death in a way....I'll never experience it so I don't fear it. I fear dying though....hope I'm either asleep on riding an atomic bomb.

Life: A sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate.

Zillah

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

hope I'm either asleep on riding an atomic bomb.

Nuclear weapons are triggered by conventional explosions so you're essentially sitting on a few kilos of TNT.

seamus

LA3G wrote: »

The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.

I disagree. For me, the fear of death arises from the belief that there is no awareness. Ever again. You can compare it to being asleep, however when you go to sleep you expect to wake again to enjoy life. When you die, you don't.

5uspect

I agree with seamus. My fear of death is exaclty that.

Zombrex

Me too ... my brain does a "divide by zero" error when I try to think about not existing, I get upset and a bit panicy and I try to think about something else. Not too good when it is 2 in the morning and I can't sleep for what ever reason, my mind tends to wander to the darker side.

I don't think there is any magic curse to this feeling, I just try not to think about it that much.

But as Dade mentioned, it leads, or I hope it leads, to a more fufilled life. It certain has produced a much better out look for my life, the realization that life is finite and that death may very well be the end. Pissing your life away thinking about all the things you are going to do tomorrow rather than today, or all the things you would do if you just had this or that or worried about this or that, just ends up being a wasted life.

I now am constantly thinking if I was told I had 2 weeks to live would I be happy with my life.

MrDaithi

I don't fear death but I'd like to die as late as possible as long as I'm not incapacitated mentally of physically.

I guess people can have a fear of pain, I do, I wouldn't want to die in agony because of an incurable disease or some stupid accident.

Or may be people can have a fear of not having accomplished anything with their life e.g being meaningless in the grand scheme of things. About that I don't care at all.

jimbling

An atheist has far less to fear from death than a religious person. When you die you die. You no longer have conscious thought, so what exactly do you fear?

Yes, the fear of a slow painful death is real. But that's a fear of pain, not death. I certainly have a fear of pain.... and I'm completely intolerant too :rolleyes:


I had a huge long message here on how I got from been Catholic and living in fear to Atheist and living relatively without fear (of death anyway)..... and all the unusual places in between.
I was hoping it would help OP, but it was turning into my bloody memoirs so I deleted it.

Evil-p

jimbling wrote: »

An atheist has far less to fear from death than a religious person. When you die you die. You no longer have conscious thought, so what exactly do you fear?

Yes, the fear of a slow painful death is real. But that's a fear of pain, not death. I certainly have a fear of pain.... and I'm completely intolerant too :rolleyes:


I had a huge long message here on how I got from been Catholic and living in fear to Atheist and living relatively without fear (of death anyway)..... and all the unusual places in between.
I was hoping it would help OP, but it was turning into my bloody memoirs so I deleted it.

Thanks Jimbling! Maybe it was turning into a memoir but i'm sure was interesting! I've genuinely been helped by what people have wrote in this thread and i can say quite honestly that it is on my mind far less that it was a couple of weeks ago! As they say a problem shared is a problem halved!

That religous person has far more to fear from death is true but I dont know about you, but anyone i know seems to have slected the palatable parts of religion and fear of hell etc does not seem to bother them. Its all about heaven!!!!!

Dades

Evil-p wrote: »

I've genuinely been helped by what people have wrote in this thread and i can say quite honestly that it is on my mind far less that it was a couple of weeks ago!

Time to crack out the stolen altar wine and celebrate... the A&A forum appears to have actually done something useful!

Good for you, Evil-p.

jimbling

Evil-p wrote: »

Thanks Jimbling! Maybe it was turning into a memoir but i'm sure was interesting! I've genuinely been helped by what people have wrote in this thread and i can say quite honestly that it is on my mind far less that it was a couple of weeks ago! As they say a problem shared is a problem halved!

That religous person has far more to fear from death is true but I dont know about you, but anyone i know seems to have slected the palatable parts of religion and fear of hell etc does not seem to bother them. Its all about heaven!!!!!

No problem.
Ya, a lot of religious people are hypocritical and live a within a multitude of contradictions and paradoxes. I still think deep down they are much more fearful and guilt ridden than they let on to be.