Should the Germans apologise?

IanCurtis

Having just watched The Pianist, Polanski's finest film, and the Germans' despicable treatment of the Polish Jews, my emotions are running overtime.

Have the Germans' taken responsibility for the horror of World War Two in a meaningful way in the last 60 years?

hussey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_war_crimes#German_acknowledgment_of_war_crimes

namesRhard

Short answer, no. The Germans were not an autonomous unit of Jew hate, and failing that notion the Germany of today is not the Germany of yesteryear.

brianthebard

Are you drunk op? They still pay reparations every year to Israel, what more do you want?

Bijoux

You can't just blame all Germans for it....the younger generations have nothing whatsoever to do with it, and a lot of the older generation may have been coerced into that way of life.
They shouldnt have to apologise for the actions of others.


BTW The Pianist is a BRILLIANT film!

Irishtrekkie

What a stupid topic , maybe american can say sorry to the slaves , in fact let every country in africa say sorry to the slaves since slavery was a common policy there before america or britain turned up , maybe we can see if the the roman empire wants to say sorry, or the soviet union too .


Of course the answer is No, cause you are asking peoples ancestors to say sorry for something they did not do , the U.N. says you cant do that , and yes its already been said but the germany of today is not that of 60 years ago .

IanCurtis

Irishtrekkie wrote: »

What a stupid topic , maybe american can say sorry to the slaves , in fact let every country in africa say sorry to the slaves since slavery was a common policy there before america or britain turned up , maybe we can see if the the roman empire wants to say sorry, or the soviet union too .


Of course the answer is No, cause you are asking peoples ancestors to say sorry for something they did not do , the U.N. says you cant do that , and yes its already been said but the germany of today is not that of 60 years ago .

First of all, no topic is "stupid" because you don't agree with it.

The Germans to my mind have never apologised as a nation for their inhumane and despicable treatment of Jews, homosexuals and the disabled community in the war of 1939 - 1945.

It is not that long ago. 63 years is not the same timeline as the abolition of slavery.

"Ancestors"....:rolleyes:

It wasn't me!

IanCurtis wrote: »

First of all, no topic is "stupid" because you don't agree with it.

The Germans to my mind have never apologised as a nation for their inhumane and despicable treatment of Jews, homosexuals and the disabled community in the war of 1939 - 1945.

It is not that long ago. 63 years is not the same timeline as the abolition of slavery.

"Ancestors"....:rolleyes:

That's because asking someone to apologise for the actions of a government their country had over half a century ago makes no sense whatsoever. Those concerned with that regime are dead and gone; you can carry a chip in your shoulder or realise that those affected by it are also dead and gone, and bitterness is a pretty useless feeling here.

To counter it, how about I suggest the Allies never apologised enough about Dresden? Go get those apologies at the same time.

Bottle_of_Smoke

No they shouldn't. They can acknowledge their forbears behaved attrociously but expecting them to apologise is retarded.

mike65

Asking the state of Germany (which didn't even exist in 1945) is foolish, asking the people to collectively say sorry is also retarded but then plenty here have demanded appologies from the British for the famine in 1847. Whats worse is that Blair felt to need to oblige.

Mike

It wasn't me!

mike65 wrote: »

Asking the state of Germany (which didn't even exist in 1945) is foolish, asking the people to collectively say sorry is also retarded but then plenty here have demanded appologies from the British for the famine in 1847. Whats worse is that Blair felt to need to oblige.

Mike

Agreed, spineless pandering to the ignorant masses.

metrovelvet

Hmnn... should the Irish and others apologise for remaining neutral?

Yeah.... its always some one else's fault ...

Dudess

The idea that a nation should be held accountable for the actions of certain people just because they happen to be of that nationality... is the kind of thinking that led to the Holocaust in the first place. Nazis weren't just German anyway - Polish, Croatian, Italian, Dutch among others. In fact the dude who started it all was Austrian.

brianthebard

One of the most enthusiastic genocidists as French, who actually sent children to the concentration camps, without even being asked. That's dedication.

GirlInterrupted

My paternal grandparents were German Jews who escaped to the UK just before the outbreak of WW2. The large extended family they left behind did not escape.

Oma died five years ago and my Grandpa died four years ago, and every time this discussion came up he clearly stated that an apology from the present generation of Germans was pointless and futile.

The aren't the bad guys, the bad guys are dead or very aged now and you can't demonise a nation for the actions of a few homicidal madmen.

The other side is Italian/Irish, now thats another story .

Latchy

The German goverment and people have well come to terms with the more recent Nazi past and they had 4 countries as landlords after the war to remind them of it .On a personell level many germans might say the Holocaust (horrific as it was ) was just another part of that Nazi history and WW2

The Chinese are still waiting for the Japanese to acknowledge and apologise for the horrific massacres at Nanking (the Japanese are in denial)

Dudess

latchyco wrote: »

The Chinese are still waiting for the Japanese to acknowledge and apologise for the horrific massacres at Nanking (the Japanese are in denial)

That's reprehensible, but the Japanese shouldn't have to apologise. However, an acknowledgement of it is surely reasonable.

todolist

IanCurtis wrote: »

Having just watched The Pianist, Polanski's finest film, and the Germans' despicable treatment of the Polish Jews, my emotions are running overtime.

Have the Germans' taken responsibility for the horror of World War Two in a meaningful way in the last 60 years?

Maybe the Jews should apologize to the Palestinians.

GirlInterrupted

todolist wrote: »

Maybe the Jews should apologize to the Palestinians.

And vice versa?

todolist

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

And vice versa?

Yeah why not.Everyone apologize to everyone.Just ironic that a race like the Jews who have suffered so much should then turn around and inflict so much suffering on the Palestinians.

GirlInterrupted

todolist wrote: »

Yeah why not.Everyone apologize to everyone.Just ironic that a race like the Jews who have suffered so much should then turn around and inflict so much suffering on the Palestinians.

Are we talking Jews in general or Israeli's? While most Israeli's are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli.

Israeli's have been subjected to some fairly horrific acts of terrorism at the hands of the Palestinians which doesn't make the actions of sucessive Israeli governments right by any means, but it isn't a one way street.

todolist

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

Are we talking Jews in general or Israeli's? While most Israeli's are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli.

Israeli's have been subjected to some fairly horrific acts of terrorism at the hands of the Palestinians which doesn't make the actions of sucessive Israeli governments right by any means, but it isn't a one way street.

The Israelis are using state terrorism,Bankrolled by American tax dollars.Black hawks bombing refugee camps.I blame the other Arab nations for abandoning the Palestinians to their fate.No one speaks up for or defends the Palestinians.

It wasn't me!

todolist wrote: »

No one speaks up for or defends the Palestinians.

I hardly think that's a fair statement, to be quite honest.

todolist

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I hardly think that's a fair statement, to be quite honest.

Who bankrolls them? Who supplies them with black hawks,tanks...nobody.

GirlInterrupted

todolist wrote: »

The Israelis are using state terrorism,Bankrolled by American tax dollars.Black hawks bombing refugee camps.I blame the other Arab nations for abandoning the Palestinians to their fate.No one speaks up for or defends the Palestinians.

The term terrorism is subjective. Black Hawks may bomb refugee camps, but sucide bombers blow up markets and buses and schools. And I always thought that EVERYBODY speaks up for the Palestinians.

todolist wrote: »

Who bankrolls them? Who supplies them with black hawks,tanks...nobody.

Lets level the playing field shall we? We'll ask the US to supply some hardware to the Palestinians too. Its worked so well in the past with Afghanistan.

F.A.

I am German. My paternal grandfather spent a long time in prison under Hitler for political reasons. My maternal grandmother's brother died in Stalingrad where he was sent at the age of 18. He never elected Hitler. Nor did my grandmother who was also a child when Hitler came to power. Her family lived in a small village in the mountainous area some 30 km south of Dresden. They watched the city in flames during the bombing praying their father would survive (he was working there). Said man had fought in World War I, returned as an invalid, and was extremely opposed to Hitler.

Why exactly do you think I should feel guilt? What do I need to apologise for?

OP, your post lacks any understanding of history. I suggest you read up on a few things such as how exactly Hitler came to power, political opposition from Germans under Hitler and how that was "dealt" with, support for Hitler by foreign governments and people, and last but not least, that link posted earlier by hussey about how Germany has been dealing with its darkest chapter. Your ignorant, sweeping generalisations are incredibly offensive.

Dudess

todolist wrote: »

No one speaks up for or defends the Palestinians.

Wow... That's quite a statement. Do you mean nobody powerful stands up for or defends the Palestinians? Because that contains more of a ring of truth all right. However, nobody at all standing up for them - that's hardly true.

djpbarry

It wasn't me! wrote: »

To counter it, how about I suggest the Allies never apologised enough about Dresden?

OR how about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

todolist wrote: »

No one speaks up for or defends the Palestinians.

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territories

todolist wrote: »

Who bankrolls them?

Palestine receives approximately $1 billion in aid from the international community every year. Much of their financial difficulty results from government corruption.

Zulu

Yea sure, as soon as the yanks and brits apologies to just about every other nation in the world for the copious offences to humanity they've committed.

mike65

Don't forget the French, Belgians, Spanish, Portuguse, Dutch, Chinese, Russians, Persians, Greeks, Romans/Italians

One in, all in I say.

Mike

Zulu

true enough. Austrailians and a few others aswell don't forget.

OP: why don't we all just call it quits and wipe the slate - everyones hands are dirty.

The Corinthian

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

Are we talking Jews in general or Israeli's? While most Israeli's are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli.

Someone should tell the German government then that they're paying the wrong guys war reparations then.

dennistuam

in fairness to the germans they have recognised their mistakes, and it is compulsary for every school kid to visit a concentration camp and germans per head of population are the most givers of aid to war torn refugees and their was serious debate at the time about german troops going on peacekeeping trips to bosnia
but their neighbours the austrians not so good have not really learned much from the past just look at the weirdo that locked up the kids and nationalist party


also sinn fein should apoglise

tallaght01

todolist wrote: »

The Israelis are using state terrorism,Bankrolled by American tax dollars.Black hawks bombing refugee camps.I blame the other Arab nations for abandoning the Palestinians to their fate.No one speaks up for or defends the Palestinians.

Half the protests you see in Ireland relate to the palestinian cause.

I hate war. But I'm not dumb enough to think this conflict is one sided.

It's no more one sided than the Northern Ireland conflict.

The difference is Israel is rich, and has a lot of weaponry.

Make no mistake about it, if the palestinians had that kind of weaponry they'd use it too.

F.A.

dennistuam wrote: »

it is compulsary for every school kid to visit a concentration camp

That's not actually true, but the subject of the Holocaust is discussed intensely, repeatedly, and much more in depth than it seems to be in other countries, and not just in history lessons.

but their neighbours the austrians not so good have not really learned much from the past just look at the weirdo that locked up the kids and nationalist party

Haider anyone?

The biggest problem when dealing with history is scapegoating of one party and victimisation of all others. Convenient at first glance, rather dangerous at second.

Dudess

dennistuam wrote: »

but their neighbours the austrians not so good have not really learned much from the past just look at the weirdo that locked up the kids

You saw fit to bring Fritzl into this because he's Austrian? He's a crazed degenerate - crazed degenerates could be any nationality. What have his depraved tendencies got to do with Europe's darkest chapter?

And there are far-right parties in Germany too - throughout Europe. Doesn't mean the people of those countries in general haven't learned from WWII. There will always be extremist nut-jobs, Holocaust deniers etc - in any country.

nacho libre

IanCurtis wrote: »

Having just watched The Pianist, Polanski's finest film, and the Germans' despicable treatment of the Polish Jews, my emotions are running overtime.

Have the Germans' taken responsibility for the horror of World War Two in a meaningful way in the last 60 years?

Yes.

http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=314
As you see the Turks haven't taken responsibility for their actions...


Asking present days germans to apologise for action sixty years is as instructive as me asking Johan Hegg to apologise for what his beloved vikings did here. aside from Bhutan, most countries on this planet have blood on their hands.

djpbarry

nacho libre wrote: »

http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=314
As you see the Turks haven't taken responsibility for their actions...

Your link doesn't seem to work, but I presume you are referring to the Armenian genocide? You want modern Turks to "take responsibility" for the actions of the Ottoman Empire nearly a century ago?

nacho libre

djpbarry wrote: »

Your link doesn't seem to work, but I presume you are referring to the Armenian genocide? You want modern Turks to "take responsibility" for the actions of the Ottoman Empire nearly a century ago?

Odd. The link works for me.
rather than responsibility, the Turkish state could acknowledge officially what happened.


here is the content of the article:
Intelligence Report: Turkey Entices U.S. Scholars, Lawmakers to Cover Up WWI Genocide


A network of U.S. scholars funded by the government of Turkey is part of an energetic campaign to cover up the Turkish genocide of as many as 1.5 million Armenians during World War I, an effort that has found success in Congress and the White House, according to the latest issue of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Report, released today.

Despite abundant documentation and eyewitness accounts of the slaughter of Armenians by Turkey's Ottoman government between 1915 and 1918, the current Turkish government has paid lobbyists and funded the network of American academics, many of whom dismiss or rationalize the killing. Genocide scholars agree that the slaughter was, indeed, a genocide.

"What we are seeing is a despicable rewriting of history aimed at absolving the perpetrators of mass murder and demonizing their victims," said Mark Potok, editor of the SPLC's Intelligence Report, a quarterly investigative journal that monitors the radical right. "It is no different than the Holocaust denial of Nazi sympathizers who claim there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz and Treblinka."

The cover story recounts a March 2007 event where Guenter Lewy, a professor emeritus of political science at the University of Massachusetts, told a Harvard University audience that the Turkish government at the time may have been guilty of ineptness and "bungling misrule" — but not genocide. Lewy, one of the most active members of the network of academics, has made similar revisionist claims in speeches at other campuses and in his 2005 book, The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide.

As early as 1985, Turkey bought full-page newspaper advertisements to publish a letter questioning the genocide that was signed by 69 American scholars. All 69 had received funding that year from the Turkish government or its proxies.

As the only Muslim-dominated country in a troubled region to call the United States and Israel its allies, Turkey also has wielded significant political influence in Washington. Last fall, lobbyists on the Turkish payroll stymied a congressional resolution commemorating the genocide by persuading more than 100 lawmakers to reverse their positions. Even President Bush flip-flopped on a 2000 campaign promise to back official U.S. recognition of the genocide.

"Denial is the final stage of genocide," Gregory Stanton, president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars, told the Intelligence Report. "It is a continuing attempt to destroy the victim group psychologically and culturally, to deny its members even the memory of the murders of their relatives. That is what the Turkish government today is doing to Armenians around the world."

djpbarry

nacho libre wrote: »

...rather than responsibility, the Turkish state could acknowledge officially what happened.

Fair enough.

GirlInterrupted

The Corinthian wrote: »

Someone should tell the German government then that they're paying the wrong guys war reparations then.

There's probably something in that, there are more Jewish people in New York City than there are in Israel.

To address the original post, since my paternal grandparents were both German and Jewish - and of the appropriate generation - the question must be asked : Should they have apologised to themselves?

The Corinthian

TBH, the whole Holocaust industry leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

To begin with, it is judeocentric - as many non-Jews were exterminated or died as Jews, yet there is little or no mention ever of apologising to them.

Secondly, the state of Israel is presently the single biggest benefactor of reparations for the Holocaust, even though a significant proportion of their population never came from German-occupied Europe or her allies and thus should have no claim towards these reparations.

Thirdly, there is no mention of War crimes carried out by the allies; be they the bombing of Dresden, the use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki or the fact that Stalinist Russia 'liquidated' an estimated 20 million people. Hell, no one seems to remember that the USSR invaded Poland at the same time as the Germans - resulting in Poland shifting westward by a few hundred kilometres (as Russia got to keep the bit she invaded in 1939) after the war. And this is before we consider every other genocide that has been forgotten in history.

Fourthly, it is ridiculous to punish people for the sins of the father. As has been pointed out, the cost is being borne largely by people who were not even born at the time, let alone have had any involvement. If we are to accept such collective guilt, then perhaps France should seek reparations for the Gallic Wars, or Germany for the Napoleonic Wars or... the list is endless.

Hell, the Vatican should sue Israel on behalf of Jesus Christ for crucifying him.

Finally, there is at this stage an entire industry surrounding the Holocaust; from reparations, through to the entertainment industry, museums (have you seen the mechanizing some of them do?), and so on.

I suggest the OP reads Norman G. Finkelstein's book on this subject as a cure to his indignation.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

god damn corinthian you better not let alan dershowitz hear you say that, he'll bring a world of hurt onto boards

K4t

Germans? I thought it was Adolf Hitler and more generally, the Nazis who were behind the Holocaust and the more horrific war crimes during WWII.

Dave!

The Corinthian wrote: »

TBH, the whole Holocaust industry leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

To begin with, it is judeocentric - as many non-Jews were exterminated or died as Jews, yet there is little or no mention ever of apologising to them.

Secondly, the state of Israel is presently the single biggest benefactor of reparations for the Holocaust, even though a significant proportion of their population never came from German-occupied Europe or her allies and thus should have no claim towards these reparations.

Thirdly, there is no mention of War crimes carried out by the allies; be they the bombing of Dresden, the use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki or the fact that Stalinist Russia 'liquidated' an estimated 20 million people. Hell, no one seems to remember that the USSR invaded Poland at the same time as the Germans - resulting in Poland shifting westward by a few hundred kilometres (as Russia got to keep the bit she invaded in 1939) after the war. And this is before we consider every other genocide that has been forgotten in history.

Fourthly, it is ridiculous to punish people for the sins of the father. As has been pointed out, the cost is being borne largely by people who were not even born at the time, let alone have had any involvement. If we are to accept such collective guilt, then perhaps France should seek reparations for the Gallic Wars, or Germany for the Napoleonic Wars or... the list is endless.

Hell, the Vatican should sue Israel on behalf of Jesus Christ for crucifying him.

Finally, there is at this stage an entire industry surrounding the Holocaust; from reparations, through to the entertainment industry, museums (have you seen the mechanizing some of them do?), and so on.

I suggest the OP reads Norman G. Finkelstein's book on this subject as a cure to his indignation.

Holocaust denier!!!!!! :mad:


:pac:

Zombrex

IanCurtis wrote: »

The Germans to my mind have never apologised as a nation for their inhumane and despicable treatment of Jews, homosexuals and the disabled community in the war of 1939 - 1945.

You mean appart from the numerous times they have apologised ... ?

brianthebard

tallaght01 wrote: »

Half the protests you see in Ireland relate to the palestinian cause.

I hate war. But I'm not dumb enough to think this conflict is one sided.

It's no more one sided than the Northern Ireland conflict.

The difference is Israel is rich, and has a lot of weaponry.

Make no mistake about it, if the palestinians had that kind of weaponry they'd use it too.

But why are the Palestinians fighting the Israelis? Because their lands were occupied and taken from them. four million refugees in Palestine today because of the Israeli state.

tallaght01

brianthebard wrote: »

But why are the Palestinians fighting the Israelis? Because their lands were occupied and taken from them. four million refugees in Palestine today because of the Israeli state.

Well, it's a bit off topic. BUT, you have dreadful dreadful atrocitoes commited on both sides. Sure, in Northern Ireland, the Brits shouldn't have invaded int he first place. Fine. But, that wasn't helpful in making peace initially. It's only when you have peace, that you get solutions.

The Israelis are angry because suicide bombers blow up their kids. Palestinians are angry because chinooks level their villages.

With every killing comes more hatred. When there's no killing, the hatred can only last so long.

So, I would argue the palestinians fight the Israelis because they get killed by the Israelis. I would argue the Israelis fight the palestinians because they kill Israelis.

If the kiling stops, sorting the land issue wouldn't be beyond the diplomatic might that would be made available.

GirlInterrupted

The Corinthian wrote: »

TBH, the whole Holocaust industry leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

To begin with, it is judeocentric - as many non-Jews were exterminated or died as Jews, yet there is little or no mention ever of apologising to them.

Secondly, the state of Israel is presently the single biggest benefactor of reparations for the Holocaust, even though a significant proportion of their population never came from German-occupied Europe or her allies and thus should have no claim towards these reparations.

Thirdly, there is no mention of War crimes carried out by the allies; be they the bombing of Dresden, the use of the atomic bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki or the fact that Stalinist Russia 'liquidated' an estimated 20 million people. Hell, no one seems to remember that the USSR invaded Poland at the same time as the Germans - resulting in Poland shifting westward by a few hundred kilometres (as Russia got to keep the bit she invaded in 1939) after the war. And this is before we consider every other genocide that has been forgotten in history.

Fourthly, it is ridiculous to punish people for the sins of the father. As has been pointed out, the cost is being borne largely by people who were not even born at the time, let alone have had any involvement. If we are to accept such collective guilt, then perhaps France should seek reparations for the Gallic Wars, or Germany for the Napoleonic Wars or... the list is endless.

Hell, the Vatican should sue Israel on behalf of Jesus Christ for crucifying him.

Finally, there is at this stage an entire industry surrounding the Holocaust; from reparations, through to the entertainment industry, museums (have you seen the mechanizing some of them do?), and so on.

I suggest the OP reads Norman G. Finkelstein's book on this subject as a cure to his indignation.

The Holocaust is Judeocentric for the simple reason that the Jews comprise the single biggest group that the perpetrators singled out for extermination. This by no means diminishes the suffering of the other groups singled out for murder.

The State of Israel is the benefactor for the reparations as they were bound to take in all survivors of European Jewry. The state is considered a safe haven for Jews everywhere.

The fact, and it certainly is a fact, that atrocities commited by the Allies are rarely mentioned, is a separate issue.

Nobody wishes to punish the sons for the sins of the father, but it is impossible to overlook the large scale and widespread robbery of the European Jewry for the enrichment of the Nazi state. A very tiny proportion of land and valuables have ever been restored to their rightful owners, or their decendants.

I can appreciate the 'Industry' that surrounds the Holocaust can feel a little overblown to people. But theres something very important to bear in mind here.

European Jewry came within a hairs breath from extinction. Extinction. Awful as the murder of the Roma, the mentally ill, the homosexuals, the disabled etc., was, the danger of extinction wasn't present to nearly the same extent.

Anybody who thinks bygones should be bygones in terms of forgetting the Holocaust should spend some time at Yad Vashem in Israel. Lest we forget.

Of course Germany shouldn't apologise, but nobody, nobody at all, should ever forget. Humanity should learn most from its hardest lessons.

GirlInterrupted

brianthebard wrote: »

But why are the Palestinians fighting the Israelis? Because their lands were occupied and taken from them. four million refugees in Palestine today because of the Israeli state.

It was the United Nations that approved the partition of the Palestinian state into two, Jewish and Arab sections.

The State of Israel was populated at first, largely by Jewish refugees, and to some extent, still is.

brianthebard

I'm afraid its not that simple, nor should it be admissable for the UN to compromise a nation's sovereignty. There were around 100,000 Jewish settlers moved to Mandate Palestine by the US and Britain (see British White paper) prior to WWII, under pressure from Zionist groups in the US. So even before 1948 there were tensions. And of course after the Israeli state was founded it expanded hugely into Palestinian land, a further violation of sovereignty.