Dublin Marathon Photos

Stupid_Private

Hi,

I'm a regular on the athletics forum... first time here, so hello!

I've had a look at the rules of posting here and I'm unsure if it's OK to mention my site, so I won't for the time being. Basically I've set up a photo website where runners can search for photos of themselves in races they've run. Race photography is very popular among runners but an annoying thing as "official" photographers charge for the photos. This site is 100% non-commercial and there is no charge for anyone to access the photos. In fact they are all stored on flickr. The application on my site allows the runners to search for them.

The reason I'm posting here is just incase any of you will be practicing your sports photography during the marathon on Monday morning. If you are there'll be plenty of runners who'd love to see the photos afterwards. If there's no interest, fair enough. If anyone is interested, and it's cool with the moderators, I'll put a link to the site here... or I could always just PM it to anyone who wants.

CabanSail

I am one of the "official" photographers.

Stupid_Private

CabanSail wrote: »

I am one of the "official" photographers.

Hahah, what were the odds? *takes step back*
When I mentioned the site on the marathon page the first response called them "official" photographs...
*continues digging*

seanybiker

sounds interesting . Me brother is doing the marathon so be nice to have a pic of him in bits lol

Eirebear

I done a shift with one of these Marathon photo companies a few months back for the Race for Life up in Inverness.

My god it was horrible, 3 of us Vs 5,000 tired, redfaced, sweaty women.

AnimalRights

I thought this was the Womens marathon? Or was that in the summer?

Borderfox

Stupid Private what is your job?

CabanSail

I have done four events so far for Marathonfoto after answering an email they sent me. Three of the events were the lead up races to this weekends Marathon. There was a 5 mile, 10 mile & a Half Marathon in Phoenix Park. Then they flew me to Italy to do a Half Marathon there. They pay expenses & provide the cameras, which is good as you tend to shoot about 1000 images an hour.

Stupid_Private

Borderfox wrote: »

Stupid Private what is your job?

Web Developer.

CabanSail wrote: »

Then they flew me to Italy to do a Half Marathon there. They pay expenses & provide the cameras, which is good as you tend to shoot about 1000 images an hour.

That sounds class. There must be plenty of people that fork out for pictures of themselves near exhaustion on coffee mugs!

AnimalRights wrote: »

I thought this was the Womens marathon? Or was that in the summer?

Women's mini marathon is in May I think. Stress the mini as it's 6 miles.
This is the real marathon 26 miles.

Dodgykeeper

Borderfox wrote: »

Stupid Private what is your job?

Pls dont Borderfox, it gets boring!

Calina

Stupid_Private wrote: »

.... Race photography is very popular among runners but an annoying thing as "official" photographers charge for the photos.

I'm having a problem with the concept of this being "annoying" to be honest with you. I don't get where the problem with paying for a photograph which someone used a bit of expertise to take is.

What exactly are you proposing? I have no beef to defend anyone working for the official agency - I know a bit about it - but I do have a beef with someone suggesting that boards.ie photographers - a few of whom are semi-pro - might be expected to provide free access to photographs they take either because you and others find the official agency irksome for wanting to be paid.

You say that the photos would continue to be stored on flickr's servers; I have to ask would they be shown on your site? You would definitely need permission from the photographers concerned to do that.

Obviously, there is nothing to stop any photographer concerned from contacting you privately to say yay or nay but I am afraid that from the information you've provided here I'd be on shaky ground to say yes to posting your site given that the overwhelming impression you are giving - be it right or wrong - that you want to do this because you want stuff for free. That's not fully fair on the photographers.

I think it might be beneficial to explain what it is you want and what exactly your application does. As things stand, you haven't sold the idea to me at all.

Dodgykeeper

He wants something for free! :eek:

Let him post his link so people can see for themselves what he wants, I myself would have no problem giving people images of themselves for free under these circumstances, posters here are mature enough to make up their own mind about this issue!

Calina

DK, I don't have an issue with people making their own decision one way or the other.

However, I want to know what exactly it is he wants from the photographers here before I say yes or no to the site being posted here. It sounds like some sort of a flickr aggregator; I'd like to know if it selects based on tag or on flickr userid, for example, or whether it's like one of the countless sites around the world that aggregates all photos with a specific tag - I know, for example, that there are a handful of sites reading flickr for surf shots without bothering to check the licences applied to the photographs or check with the photographers.

With the best will in the world, that's not nice. I'm just asking for a little more information here. I'd also add that by and large I don't step into arguments about free stuff or photographers wanting to get paid.

Dodgykeeper

OK so can I suggest the OP pm the link to Calina then she can decide, You can send it too me while your at it, wont be around on Monday but know somebody who maybe!

Stupid_Private

Calina wrote: »

I think it might be beneficial to explain what it is you want and what exactly your application does. As things stand, you haven't sold the idea to me at all.

I don't have an agenda against the agencies that provide photos at their races. The photos that will by and large be shown on my site will be from friends and families of the people running the race.

Rather than post the link to the site I'll give you the contents of the How it works page.

xxx allows you to get your photographs of runners into the hands of the people that value them most - the runners themselves.
Sign up with xxx first, then head over to Flickr and tag each photo you upload there with:

* xxx,
* the name of the race (DM08 for the Dublin Marathon), and
* the bib numbers of the runners in each photograph you upload.

This allows us to identify the photos on Flickr and make sure that runners can find the photos you have taken. You’ll need to sign up for a Flickr account first - but don’t worry, it’s free!

The owner of the photo will have had to have tagged the photo for it to appear on my site. They untag it and it disappears from my site. All links on the picture go back to the users Flickr site.

I just jumped in here as I thought there may be a few people who'd be around town, watching and may take some photos and want the people who they've taken pictures of to see them. It was not in any way to take a pop at agencies providing the photos and sorry if anyone is offended by my throw away comment about finding it annoying having to pay for them. It was not an attack on the photographers.

Really I don't need to put the link to my site here as the site is only of interest to the person who's run it. It's like the marathonfoto site, mentioned above, no ones going to go to that site unless they've run the race. If anyone takes photos on the day and wants the runners to see them they can just flip me a PM.

Calina

So basically, the photographs are displayed on your site, and it's based on userid and tag.

Ultimately, I agree in principle with the idea of what you are doing - getting people to the photographs of them. It's just the way you described it above left a certain amount to be desired.

I see two options: 1) if people are interested in participating, they can PM you or 2) you can post a link to the site provided you can confirm to me you comply with Flickr's T&Cs regarding linkbacks to the original photograph pages.

You'd be surprised; people might not necessarily be interested in what you are using the site for but might consider it useful for something they want to do on another subject. If the tags and userid are customisable, it could be interesting for someone setting up a gallery of their own. Hence a few people might well want a look at it.

Borderfox

I would agree with Calina's summing up of the situation, a good idea in principle but the asking left a lot to be desired..

AnCatDubh

Stupid_Private wrote: »

sorry if anyone is offended by my throw away comment about finding it annoying having to pay for them

I actually think you may just be expressing what people, not in the way of the fine art that those of these parts value, generally would feel - i think people around this forum may be a little sensitive to the sentiment and understandably so. I guess whether we photographers like it or not we probably have to understand that this is a view held in the wider public arena.

Good luck with your venture.

AnimalRights

AnCatDubh wrote: »

I guess whether we Taximen like it or not we probably have to understand that this is a view held in the wider public arena.

Sounds familiar....

RoryW

Looking at your website (it was very easy to find!) is your website for making money or for the general good of runners finding photographs ?

Your website was only created on 23 October (yesterday) and consists of only a few pages so it is unclear.

Also if I can suggest a change - your "contact us" link should provide real contact details phone, address, email rather than submit a query to contact us format. I think this is now a legal requirement

Dodgykeeper

RoryW wrote: »

Looking at your website (it was very easy to find!) is your website for making money or for the general good of runners finding photographs ?

Your website was only created on 23 October (yesterday) and consists of only a few pages so it is unclear.

Also if I can suggest a change - your "contact us" link should provide real contact details phone, address, email rather than submit a query to contact us format. I think this is now a legal requirement

You found the site, well done now read it and you will see that it is for the general good of the runners.

Why in Gods name should a guy trying to help other people find images of themselves on the net provide his Phone Number and Address?

Stupid_Private

RoryW wrote: »

Looking at your website (it was very easy to find!) is your website for making money or for the general good of runners finding photographs ?

Your website was only created on 23 October (yesterday) and consists of only a few pages so it is unclear.

Also if I can suggest a change - your "contact us" link should provide real contact details phone, address, email rather than submit a query to contact us format. I think this is now a legal requirement

The site is non-commercial. As it explains in the about us section "All the photos we show here are completely free to download from Flickr".

As the site is a personal site there is no legal requirement (as far as I'm aware) to display full contact details. Otherwise all bloggers out their would be legally obliged to provide their details on their sites. Commercial websites require full contact details and business numbers.

Finally, the site was only created on the 23rd October. What this has to do with anything I don't know. I've been working on the idea for a while, thought I could get something out before the marathon and have a bit of interest in it before concentrating on races that have 100 odd people in them.

CabanSail

Let me first state that I have no problem with you setting up the site & letting runners have access to your photographs. I also like sharing my images with people & as it's a hobby do not charge for them, even though it is a small cost to me.

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Race photography is very popular among runners but an annoying thing as "official" photographers charge for the photos.

What you have to remember is that the "official" photographers have quite a lot of expenses to cover to obtain these photographs. The company has to get a contract to cover the race. For the Dublin Marathon this contract covers all the lead up races too which would not be very profitable & may even lose money. There is a lot of equipment that is dedicated to the venture. The cameras will get anywhere from 1000 to 5000 actuations per race. This gear has to be brought in from the UK or USA. The photographers have to be paid to be there too. Then there are the costs of processing thousands of images & having them sorted into folders for each individual runner & this needs to be done very soon after the race. All these expenses have to be covered by the sale of the images.

I just wanted to point these things out as you seem to resent the "official" photographers.

Calina

Stupid_Private wrote: »

As it explains in the about us section "All the photos we show here are completely free to download from Flickr".

Actually, you cannot make that statement and be guaranteed that it is true. Whether images can be downloaded legitimately from Flickr depends on the licence applied by the photographer. Every single one of my photographs has All Rights Reserved which means actually you shouldn't download them from Flickr for free or otherwise. You can view them in a browser...but that's it unless the photographer has allowed it, usually via a Creative Commons.

I think you need to reconsider that. I have no beef again with enabling people to find the photos; saying they can then download them is a different kettle of fish.

Stupid_Private

CabanSail wrote: »

I just wanted to point these things out as you seem to resent the "official" photographers.

Cheers for the info on the work that goes into the official photographs of an event. By no way did I think it was a small thing to organise. I have raced as one of 12000 people before and got caught on about 5 or 6 different pictures. It is something that is appreciated. The fact that I don't want to pay for a photo after paying €80 to be in the event is neither here nor there really. That is not an attack on the agencies or the photographers, that's just how I personally feel.

I thought I cleared up this with my earlier post where I apologised for any offence. I've been very light hearted in every response this far with regards the offical photos but you've gone back to my first post again. I'm not going to keep repeating my prior apology.

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I don't have an agenda against the agencies that provide photos at their races. The photos that will by and large be shown on my site will be from friends and families of the people running the race.
....
It was not in any way to take a pop at agencies providing the photos and sorry if anyone is offended by my throw away comment about finding it annoying having to pay for them. It was not an attack on the photographers.

CabanSail

I know it wasn't an attack. The €80 you pay to the Race Organisers is a seperate matter to the Photography.

Photo's from Family & Friends is fine but there will not be the bulk photography as done by the companies. You say that you appreciate the fact that the Photographers are there to capture the images & it's fair enough that you make the choice not to buy them. The "Agencies" have no objection to private photography & they have no right to either. If your system is used to undermine them & make it unprofitable then they will not do those events any more. They have other income streams & they will concentrate them instead. The runners in these races will then have to depend on your system alone. I sort of doubt it would come to that but it's the point I was trying to make.

Krusty_Clown

I am a participant in the aforementioned race, and a hobbyist photographer and have, in the past, enjoyed reading and benefiting from this forum. On the day itself, if there are official photographs that manage to capture my image correctly (quite often, due to the number of participants and crowding, this can be quite difficult), and also portray me in a reasonable light (again, this has nothing to do with the photographers, and more to do with my form at that stage of the race:o) then I will most certainly purchase them. Particularly the finish line photo, to which only the official photographers will have access.

If some amateur photographers are willing to practice their art and share their captured images with those of us struggling around the 26 mile course, I would be delighted if they managed to capture an image of me, and made it available and would be very appreciative of their efforts. Sharing the photos is not an involuntary activity. The photos have to be tagged in Flickr in a specific format, including the runners' bib number, in order to be searchable. If a photographer does not want their photos included, simply do not tag them in the required format. End of story.

I assume that this forum still caters for professional and amateur photographers. As per a previous post to the OP (on another forum), I have asked my wife to take as many photos as she can, and I will personally tag them, upload them, and share them via the OP's very well intentioned website. It could, potentially, offer budding amateur photographers an opportunity to demonstrate their skills, or if nothing else, demonstrate their generosity.

I am not affiliated with this site or the OP in any way.

robinph

I'm also going to be running on Monday.

I like the idea of this site just to be able to find whatever dodgy quality picture of myself looking knackered on the streets of Dublin though. I don't feel it's worth paying €10-60 for a print of me in that state though when all I'm actually interested in is a couple of links to low quality pics that I can email to people. I might pay €60 for a finishing picture though, but only in the event of me wining.

RoryW

Stupid_Private wrote: »

The site is non-commercial.

Good luck with the venture then.

PJW

robinph wrote: »

I'm also going to be running on Monday.

I like the idea of this site just to be able to find whatever dodgy quality picture of myself looking knackered on the streets of Dublin though. I don't feel it's worth paying €10-60 for a print of me in that state though when all I'm actually interested in is a couple of links to low quality pics that I can email to people. I might pay €60 for a finishing picture though, but only in the event of me wining.

Exactly, there is no commercial value photographing losers :pac:,

but it seems to me if you want a partisipation photo for free then get a family member to stand in the rain for a few hours and take one, you should get the "dodgy quality picture" you want however if you want an image taken by someone else and they have a charge associated with it, then cough up.

robinph

There is no commercial value in photographing me taking part in yet another race. I'm sure there will make plenty of money to be made from people taking part in their first/ only marathons though and selling them framed prints.

I'm just mildly interested in the pictures taken by family member stood on the side of the route type quality. However, not having any family members to send out to stand there for me if someone else's family does get a shot of me then I'd be interested in seeing it.

I cannot see this taking away from the official photographers at all. Their market is the once off runners who will be getting spammed with emails from marathonfoto to pursuade them to buy the framed pictures. This site seems more for regular runners just looking to browse through various races they may have taken part in on the off chance there is a snapshot of them but are unlikely to be buying any pictures anyway.

CabanSail

How much do they charge for Photo's?

I just like doing it as it allows me to het some money to invest in new gear

AnCatDubh

But that kinda takes the discussion off topic. The OP's original and subsequent posts has no expectation for any quality whereas if the runners are using the 'official' togs of the day then you have an expectation of quality and hence you fork out the lolly and appropriately so.

I think OP - in hindsight and sometimes that can yield 2020 vision, the original post may have been better asking something like ;

"hey there, if anybody is photographing the marathon on monday and would like to voluntarily post your takes of the day for athletes to see then you can do so at my site which is a non commercial venture, yada, yada".

This boards forum has no commercial angle and equally doesn't specifically represent the rights or wrongs of amateur photographers partaking in such ventures but does rightly protect the rights of an individual as a photographer.

I think CabanSail's point is the basis of a larger and rather interesting discussion as to the future of professional photography (particularly events, weddings, etc..) in the context of a world where uncle bob / aunt marge can do a 80%+ good job - the issue is ultimately one of survival. Look at the open source v closed source developments in the software world. The difference isn't that stark.

robinph

The cheapest they have is €9.95 for 1 - 5x7 "unprotected" print and the most expensive they keep on trying to sell me is €59.95 for 2 - 8x10 and 4 - 5x7 "metallic" prints.

Stupid_Private

AnCatDubh wrote: »

I think OP - in hindsight and sometimes that can yield 2020 vision, the original post may have been better asking something like ;

"hey there, if anybody is photographing the marathon on monday and would like to voluntarily post your takes of the day for athletes to see then you can do so at my site which is a non commercial venture, yada, yada".

In hindsight I shouldn't have used the throw away comment about official photographs! It's something I had never paid much attention to and do not have a problem with. I really only used the statement to bulk up the free aspect of my site.

If you read my first post again - you will see that I did say it was 100% non-commercial and then in the second section when I said why I was posting is full of "ifs"... very similar to what you said above.

PCPhoto

having read everything above your site makes sense (Stupid_private) .... but only from the runner/family-friends or a fan point of view, sure its great to get images of people who run in the marathon and let them download the images for free, but if you look closely you are asking people to do the work of a pro-photographer and get none of the benefits.

Personally I think that if someone goes out of their way to purchase equipment, take the time to goto the marathon, choose a spot or couple of spots along the route.... then they should be entitled to charge some money to compensate them from the expenses they have encurred, thats why the PRO agencies send so many people to cover the event.

Stupid_Private would you give free web-developing if someone contacted you to say they had a website offering free web-development (I think thats programming etc isnt it).....its the same concept...isnt it ?

nilhg

AnCatDubh wrote: »

I think CabanSail's point is the basis of a larger and rather interesting discussion as to the future of professional photography (particularly events, weddings, etc..) in the context of a world where uncle bob / aunt marge can do a 80%+ good job - the issue is ultimately one of survival. Look at the open source v closed source developments in the software world. The difference isn't that stark.

Couldn't have said it better my self, I have to say I had my eyes opened this summer, we had several family events and i couldn't beleive the number of 40D/D300's and the people who had them. One of the the official photogs was using a 10D/5D combination and he looked positively out gunned at times.

PCPhoto wrote: »

Personally I think that if someone goes out of their way to purchase equipment, take the time to goto the marathon, choose a spot or couple of spots along the route.... then they should be entitled to charge some money to compensate them from the expenses they have encurred, thats why the PRO agencies send so many people to cover the event.

But the OP just asked anyone who wants to to participate, the question is can the people you are referring to add enough value to justify somebody spending the money.

PCPhoto wrote: »

Stupid_Private would you give free web-developing if someone contacted you to say they had a website offering free web-development (I think thats programming etc isnt it).....its the same concept...isnt it ?

There are loads of free web-development sites out there

Dodgykeeper

This argument is going to re-surface every time somebody come in here asking for what the regulars here percieve as being something for nothing.

The OP has done some web development work for free, he developed a website where the people who run the marathon can view pics of themselves taken by willing people who sign up to the site.

He is not picking the pocket of the official photographers who will be covering the event (a company which was looking for people to work for an hourly rate that is lower than the minimum wage btw) he is providing a service for free to the thousands of people who are running the marathon.

This is NOT a forum for pro photographers rather a forum for photographers and if some of them want to sign up for this then they can, this constant whining on this issue needs to stop or the perception that this forum is elitist and up its own arse will continue to grow.

robinph

PCPhoto wrote: »

having read everything above your site makes sense (Stupid_private) .... but only from the runner/family-friends or a fan point of view, sure its great to get images of people who run in the marathon and let them download the images for free, but if you look closely you are asking people to do the work of a pro-photographer and get none of the benefits.

Personally I think that if someone goes out of their way to purchase equipment, take the time to goto the marathon, choose a spot or couple of spots along the route.... then they should be entitled to charge some money to compensate them from the expenses they have encurred, thats why the PRO agencies send so many people to cover the event.

Stupid_Private would you give free web-developing if someone contacted you to say they had a website offering free web-development (I think thats programming etc isnt it).....its the same concept...isnt it ?

I wouldn't see it as somewhere pro-photographers should be worried about or even notice though.

Someone who goes along to wait for their family member to run past them in some race though may well be taking some other shots to relive the bordem whilst they are stood there, if any of those pictures happen to be even slightly good then why not upload them to be accessible by a site such as this so that whoever it was that you just took a picture of can find the picture. Anyone who is actually going to be sat on the side of the road with the intention of capturing pictures of everybody going past though should quite rightly be getting paid though, then it's down to whoever it is that is paying them to persuade me to buy those pictures.

CabanSail

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

a company which was looking for people to work for an hourly rate that is lower than the minimum wage btw

What is the hourly rate of the minimum wage?

I think their hourly rate is quite generous actually.

Dodgykeeper

I am sure it is quite generous for the talent Caban but think of the children...........http://www.gumtree.ie/dublin/44/28647744.html

robinph

Eight quid an hour to try and convince a bunch of knackered people to lift their hands up in the air and smile.

CabanSail

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

I am sure it is quite generous for the talent Caban but think of the children...........http://www.gumtree.ie/dublin/44/28647744.html

I see. Well I get a little bit more than that

sineadw

CabanSail wrote: »

I am one of the "official" photographers.

Me too

liamtinney

There is a lot of people on here that jumps on the bandwagon when it comes to complaining about copyright, geting paid, sending solicitor's letters, papers using this or that, there is two types of photographers amature or pro, If you are a pro I agree with the above, but if you are an amature what the harm in letting people enjoy your work, or do you feel that you work is better sitting in your hard drive, I know i dont get anything out of printing a good A2 photo at home and sitting in my room looking at it saying that nice, I take it up to my buisness and leave it sitting around for reactions by normal people my staff and customers (not photographers) and if they like it I then get a buzz out of my photography not by sitting by myself looking at a computer screen, so if you are an amature photographer get your work out there and let people enjoy it .;)

LaMer

Some of the funnier stuff. Don't think they were even running the race together.

CabanSail

liamtinney wrote: »

There is a lot of people on here that jumps on the bandwagon when it comes to complaining about copyright, geting paid, sending solicitor's letters, papers using this or that, there is two types of photographers amature or pro, If you are a pro I agree with the above, but if you are an amature what the harm in letting people enjoy your work, or do you feel that you work is better sitting in your hard drive, I know i dont get anything out of printing a good A2 photo at home and sitting in my room looking at it saying that nice, I take it up to my buisness and leave it sitting around for reactions by normal people my staff and customers (not photographers) and if they like it I then get a buzz out of my photography not by sitting by myself looking at a computer screen, so if you are an amature photographer get your work out there and let people enjoy it .;)

I agree & have said so.

I am an Amateur myself. Doing the race photo's is the only paid photography work I have done & it will allow me to buy some gear without putting in applications in triplicate to the Ministry of War & Finance.

I took some images at the Ladies Flora Mini Marathon & handed out my email address to the subjects where I could. Those that contacted me I sent a copy of the images. The problem here that I see was that in the original thread the OP seemed to resent the charges made by the photographers who work at these events.

At the Marathon I took about 6900 shots, which is an average of one shot every 3 seconds over 5 hours. I aim to have approx 90% of those of salable quality. The other race photogaphers had similar figures. The there were the pre race candids & post race presentation shots, which are another team of photographers who probably got around the 1000 images each. To mount that sort of operation is not cheap & has to include money for the gear & the sorting & administration of that number of photo's in a very short time frame. The final images have to be priced to sell but the price includes the effort taken to get the photo's in the first place. I think the OP now realises this & has said that his comment was a throw away line.

Krusty_Clown

They're best friends. Lord Iveagh (Arthur Edward Guinness) and Grant Musket.
Fair play to them! Nice picture.

LaMer

I didn't actually realise that until I saw them in the paper today, shame seemed too good to be true!

Stupid_Private

CabanSail wrote: »

The problem here that I see was that in the original thread the OP seemed to resent the charges made by the photographers who work at these events.

I'm beginning to feel here that you have some agenda against my offering a service for free!!

I made a one sentence comment in my first post which you've gone back to multiple times... three or four times at least now? I've since apologised for that comment a few times. Before this thread I never really thought about the ins and outs of the official photography. I only used the sentence because I thought it added weight to the free nature of my site which I hoped would be appreciated in a forum of people I thought would be amateur photographers and may be interested in the idea. I set up the site as it's something that interests me (I like running and I like seeing pictures of me running - simple!), not because of an agenda against the official photographs. Could we please get past this?

Thanks to everyone who has sent me PMs offering support and photos to the site - it's greatly appreciated.

CabanSail

I am well over it .... if you would actually read what I have written you will see that. I even have said I have done similar things myself. The quote above was an answer to someone else.