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National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2009 onwards

  • 23-10-2008 8:53pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    Indicative Project list agreed between Dept of Finance and NRA as Multi year Funding Envelope.

    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2009

    1. Gort-Crusheen
    2. Newlands Cross (if enough people make a fuss otherwise 2010)

    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2010

    1. Arklow - Rathnew
    2. Longford Bypass

    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2011

    1. Galway Bypass

    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2012

    1. N20 Croom - Mallow
    2. N18 Athenry - GORT

    No timescale for anything else.
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    Entire of N20 may be a PPP so that could change.

    NRA are having a meeting mid November to discuss the priorities of various schemes, so this could change. I would hope that the Galway bypass gets priority over the Longford bypass anyway.

    Gort-Crusheen still may be later this year, I noticed in my travels today that a heap of new fencing has appeared around Crusheen.

    Also you can add Athenry - Gort to 2010 too.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    Entire of N20 may be a PPP so that could change.

    As could the N17 which is now unprogrammed or even a Gort-Tuam PPP.
    Also you can add Athenry - Gort to 2010 too.

    I checked, no I can't !

    This menu is what will be presented to the board of the NRA shortly .


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    No New Ross bypass or Castleisland bypass I notice. Numerous others i'm sure left off the list. What happened to all the big budget surpluses they were supposedly running up until lately :confused:. Certainly didn't spend it on transport thats for sure...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    They will run ****ing MASSIVE budget deficits in 2009 and 2010 of which National Roads Projects shall account for €1.5-€2bn in each of those years as they finish off the MIUs .

    That is if they start Nothing from now on.

    They feel the need to keep some consortia ticking over on life support by drip feeding them a tendering opportunity or two every year .


  • Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭ orbital83


    I would hope that the Galway bypass gets priority over the Longford bypass anyway.

    As you are located in Galway, that's hardly surprising.

    OP - when you say "Longford bypass", do you mean a bypass of the town alone - or the dualling of the N4 between Mullingar and Rooskey?
    The latter is much needed: Mullingar-Longford is getting dangerous as a single carriageway with the volumes of traffic using it.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    The N5 Longford Bypass ( about 3k ) is the one I mean.

    The N4 Mullingar - Longford section is at Route Selection , it will not finish all its design and public consultation and inspectors hearings before 2012 after which it may join the queue of other road projects in the same situation .

    That situation will be ready to build but no money .


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The N5 Longford Bypass ( about 3k ) is the one I mean.

    The N4 Mullingar - Longford section is at Route Selection , it will not finish all its design and public consultation and inspectors hearings before 2012 after which it may join the queue of other road projects in the same situation .

    That situation will be ready to build but no money .

    This sounds familiar....

    Oh yes, Northern Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭ SeanW


    John J wrote: »
    As you are located in Galway, that's hardly surprising.

    OP - when you say "Longford bypass", do you mean a bypass of the town alone - or the dualling of the N4 between Mullingar and Rooskey?
    The latter is much needed: Mullingar-Longford is getting dangerous as a single carriageway with the volumes of traffic using it.
    Both are badly needed - the town's traffic problem at peak times is at meltown levels. The N5 bypass was less than 3km of single carriageway and should have gone ahead without delay, the N4 dualling will likely likewise end up on the very long finger. Between that and the closure of Connolly Barracks, I'm starting to think that the only time this government thinks of Longford is when it's time to make cutbacks.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    I can understand why the expensive Galway Bypass is delayed until 2011 , thats if it ever gets built , but the c.€12m Longford Bypass is such a petty cutback :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Well we'll have to see what happens over the coming weeks...

    The M20 and M17 may be tolled so perhaps they will get away with being built. But I don't see an earlier than 2012 start-date for either of them anyway.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    If you think the 2009 budget was harsh, then just wait until the 2010 one. IMO anything scheduled for 2010 or beyond is pretty much doomed. Newlands X could catch a break due to the sheer importance of it. Im not sure either about PPPs as financing is sparse all over the globe right now.

    Doom - gloom and more doom etc.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    If you think the 2009 budget was harsh, then just wait until the 2010 one. IMO anything scheduled for 2010 or beyond is pretty much doomed. Newlands X could catch a break due to the sheer importance of it.

    That is the picture , yes. Newlands X is probably the only project guaranteed to start in the next decade as things look now . Everything else is dead . Really Really REALLY dead....and most especially when Frank Fahey says it is still alive.

    He was in the Galway papers again this week , the liar :(
    I' m not sure either about PPPs as financing is sparse all over the globe right now.

    I agree with that , the only possible PPP package that would be realistic in the next few years would be an M9 extension northwards to Navan and to Drogheda, namely the Outer Orbital project .

    This , of course, is 5 years off starting at least seeing as they have not even started route selection and will not in 2009 .

    Every other potential PPP kicked about .eg the N17 and N20 basically does not carry enough traffic and would cost too much .

    Everything west of the Shannon always costs too much for the dept of Finance :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,599 ✭✭✭ trellheim


    Gort-Crusheen should be tolled

    The Longford bypass for the N5 will be extremely welcome it's one of the last major bottlenecks on the radials


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    Too close to the Limerick tunnel toll . It would be somewhat invidious to toll 2 stretches 30 km apart .

    The ' general principle' as I understand it ( in Finance) is that stretches less than 50km apart are not tolled . By that logic they could toll Gort - Athenry however and there was a vague plan earlier this year to toll _somewhere_ between Ennis and Athenry .

    By the exact same logic there could also be a toll somewhere between Mallow and Charleville when that gets nearer being launched.

    That satisfies another ' general principle' that every Inter City run has at least 1 toll .

    In the current climate it is also likely that the only way to attract competitive PPP contractors is to plan for tolling .

    There are plans to toll the N9 somwhere north of Carlow as part of the Outer Orbital PPP .

    The reason for the introduction of this toll is twofold.

    1. It is a teaser to attract contractor interest because they can toll the N9 immediately thereby generating cashflow

    2. Because Dublin - Waterford is the only significant motorway that is not tolled at all where there are two tolls between Dublin and Limerick which is the same distance or a tad more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Well, I think the M20 will be physically tolled, along with the M9. I have serious doubts about the viability of the M17 at the moment though...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    M17 is still likely.

    Claregalway takes 24k per day. Now lets assume that 20k (say) of it takes the M17 when built. I know it wont quite be that high, but adding the people that will use it instead of the current N17 and the extra traffic the motorway will generate, 20k is a reasonable figure.

    The N8 near Kilworth takes 16k at the moment, lets say about 12k of that uses the Fermoy Bypass toll.

    So straight away a tolled M17 is more profitable (potentially) than the M8 toll.

    Also, the M7 at Portlaiose (east of the M7/M8 split that is proposed), takes 24k. Thats getting tolled.

    13k use the current N6 east of Ballinasloe, that'll probably equate to about 13-15k using the toll on the M6 Ballinasloe-Galway section.

    So yeah, the M17 is very likely to be built if there is going to be a toll on it. It'll be more successful than some of the tolled roads that are out there.

    N20 at Rathduff takes 16k, so about the same as the Fermoy bypass which got built.

    M17 and M20 will be PPPs and both will be built, despite what Mr Negative keeps saying.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    That shortlist will be built sometime but not by 2015 Crhis and likely only as TOLLED PPP roads .

    None of the rest of the Atlantic corridor will even be started by 2015 . Get out of that willye :D

    I am not being negative either , merely truthful . I do recall that you posted this comment below apropos the 2 N18 contracts back in May Chris .

    I do not believe you sought to mislead anyone but I do believe that you were seriously misled by your sources or that your sources may not have then realised that the fiscal arithmetic had changed dramatically in the first quarter of the year.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54685887&postcount=29
    The NRA tell me that they anticipate construction beginning in Q4 2008. But how much work will be done before then (as they do) I dont know.

    The N18 Oranmore to Gort and the N18 Gort to Crusheen schemes are currently out to Tender.

    Tenders are due to be returned in mid 2008 and construction is scheduled to start in Q4 2008.

    Archaeological and environmental works required to be undertaken in advance of construction are in progress.

    I responded, also in may

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55905118&postcount=35
    I have just been informed that this road is not now proceeding this year or next or any other year UNLESS the NRA can organise a tolled PPP scheme .

    I know it was announced in January that it would be but that is not the case today .

    Same with Gort -Athenry until the Gort - Crusheen scheme status is finalised.

    Athenry - Tuam cancelled although this may now mean a Claregalway bypass actually has a chance of being built as a cheap alternative.

    Galway Outer Bypass will be tolled if it ever gets the go ahead from Bord Pleanala.

    There has been some shuffling of paper since. The Dept of Finance conceded that having two proximate tolls would be unfair therefore removing an obstacle to Gort-Crusheen . That still does not mean that Gort Crusheen will be built in the next few years but at this moment in time it looks likely that it will.

    They did get their way on pulling all the rest of those schemes , just like I predicted they would.

    I have not spoken to my sources about tolling, I will revert to the group when I find out what is happening there, most likely late next month after the NRA Board has been appraised of the grim situation facing them over the next few years.

    An important matter that Noel Dempsey has deliberately neglected to flag anyone up on is that the Board of the NRA will presently be 'asked' to halve the number of their design offices.

    Noel Dempsey will presently land that onto the Board of the NRA to avoid the inevitable flak he would have personally taken had he mentioned it in his post budget briefing . Yet Noel Dempsey knew all of this as far back as April .

    The NRA have about 10 of these design offices and 5 are to go according to Noel Dempseys grand plan and by the end of 2009 is the suggested timescale .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    I'd love to know who your source is in all this. You've a mole in the Department of Finance as I understand it? Everyone who works there is sworn to secrecy - that is why it is so difficult for the media to get information out of the department because no one will talk. At the very least I'd like to know what level your source is at in the department.

    AFAIK the tenders for Gort - Crusheen were opened in April, with the tenders for Oranmore - Gort originally supposed to be deadlined in September. Now the latter has definately been delayed, until 2010 as far as I've heard. I have also heard rumours that a contracter HAS BEEN APPOINTED for Gort - Crusheen, but no more news than that.

    If a contract has been SIGNED for Gort - Crusheen, then it goes ahead. If not, it seems anyway to be the next scheme ready for the off. Whether its to appease the west I'm not sure, but it seems that this will preclude Newlands Cross.

    Edit: 90% confirmed. Apparently trucks are due onsite in EARLY NOVEMBER 2008 to start work on Gort - Crusheen. Contracts were signed last weekend I think. And this source mentions the delay in Gort - Oranmore so it does take budget cuts into account.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    The issue with Newlands is partially funding but more so that the country's main Gas and Electricity and Telecoms networks all go straight through it and that rerouting them is a lot more complex than had been anticipated .

    This is the preliminary work underway now and supposedly finished late this year . It will overrun well into next year meaning the way is not clear to build that road at present.

    Furthermore it is always Politically convenient to bring a project forward when put under pressure and Newlands is held in reserve as that project by the Minister of Transport who can pretend to listen if he comes under pressure . He is , however, under no pressure and therefore Noel Dempsey is the only minister golfing at present .

    The other proposed major roads are all green field projects with no such issues , save that there is no money :(

    As for the media , they are evidently not asking the right questions and the Dept of Finance does not give them junkets and jollies unlike road building contractors . The only senior journalist who seems to have cultivated sources in the department of finance is Sam Smyth from what I can see.

    Once books of estimates are published they do answer questions but only if you ask the right ones :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    Newlands is being preliminaried. The current works there are rerouting the Gas mains to provide space for rerouting the mainline so the bridge can be built. Also, I believe those in charge will realise that Newlands has to be the absolute inexcusable priority and must be done as soon as the Red Cow works are complete. I do agree that maybe the project isnt cancelled at all, and that they're feigning a delay to say "Oh look despite the bad conditions MONEY HAS BEEN FOUND". And I do think that could be the case with other schemes too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Well I already posted on SABRE about this...

    I don't see how a 7% deficit (very light compared to other departments) converts to almost ALL road schemes being delayed.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    I don't see how a 7% deficit (very light compared to other departments) converts to almost ALL road schemes being delayed.

    Well it is simple really .

    ALL schemes under construction between now and 2010 ( MIU projects and the Waterford Bypass ) must be paid for at various stages during 2009 and 2010 becuase they will finish then.

    This expenditure is unavoidable and will be incurred . We can therefore predict that the NRA will get about €1.5b in 2009 and in 2010 and has been allocated that for 2009 .

    The acid test is to see what projects will be under construction and to be paid for in 2011 or thereafter. You do this by following the money !

    If Chris is right and the Gort Crusheen contract has finally been signed ( and thank phuck for that :p ) then the only nationally significant road project under construction and to be paid for in 2011 will be Gort- Crusheen because the MIUs and Waterford Bypass will be finished in 2010 Latest!

    Were one to bypass New Ross and to pay for it in 2011 you would have to get diggers onsite in 2009 at the latest. Yet that tender has not even issued and nor have any others that have not been explicitly deferred since, eg Athenry - Gort tender issued in 2007 .

    This expenditure on Gort-Crusheen Will be in the order of €130m -€170m which is an awful lot less than the €1.5bn odd the NRA has been getting annually in recent times for new road build projects.

    The land take for a given project ( variously between 15% and 35% of the total cost ) is incurred in or before the year in which the contract is signed. Has anyone heard of land takes going through on a large scale ...anywhere ????

    If everything is offically delayed till 2010 and if there is no land take and contracts signed for any road project in 2009 this means nothing can start in 2010 .

    Follow the money people and do ask the right questions :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    The main reason for there being little CPOing going on is because a lot of stuff is ready to go. Lets look at your list ->
    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2009

    1. Gort-Crusheen - Has been CPOed obviously
    2. Newlands Cross - Has been CPOed

    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2010

    1. Arklow - Rathnew - Has been CPOed
    2. Longford Bypass - No idea offhand

    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2011

    1. Galway Bypass - ABP Decision on CPO pending. Will be CPOed then.

    National Road Projects to Go Ahead in 2012

    1. N20 Croom - Mallow - Route Selection underway, no CPO yet.
    2. N18 Athenry - GORT - Has been CPOed

    I'm not 110% sure of them all but thats what I know offhand. I do also know the Cork South Ring Interchanges scheme has been CPOed and is ready to go (whenever). Lots of stuff is NEARING the CPO stage.

    If its big CPOs you're looking for then look no further than the Galway Bypass and the New Ross bypass which will have their CPO decisions made by ABP later on this year probably. When they'll go to construction I dont know (no idea on the Galway bypass, tho its fairly high on the list, New Ross bypass apparently will be started soon after the Waterford bypass is done, and likely the same crew will do it).

    Also waiting in the wings after its Oral hearing is the M17. N25 Carrigtwohill - Midleton is also getting very close to CPO (despite being delayed).

    So yeah, its a dry CPO spell at the moment simply because a lot of stuff is CPOed and ready to go, and theres a big pile ready to be CPOed soon. There just doenst happen to be anything in the middle at the mo.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    I'm not 110% sure of them all but thats what I know offhand. I do also know the Cork South Ring Interchanges scheme has been CPOed and is ready to go (whenever). Lots of stuff is NEARING the CPO stage

    Ehhh you miss the point :rolleyes:

    CPO is a document that sets a price that could be paid if accepted. It freezes the intended price. The intention is not to go higher. Irish land prices are insane anyway .

    It is an offer. If accepted then it will be paid......eventually.

    The CPO purchaser ( a local authority) does not actually have to hand the money over at that time. They generally do but they do not have to.

    They can scratch their holes checking title and folios etc.

    After the CPO is issued it may be challenged , essentially with a counter valuation saying it is worth more .

    The CPO challenge mechanism has worked quite well for the owner the rising market we had since about 1983.

    Normally they got more money by issuing a challenge . Sometimes a ridiculous amount more.

    In a market where prices are falling it may not. That does not mean that chancers will not try. To save taxpayers money they should be allowed to try.

    Then you wait, other chancers may well appear , then others , then lots , then you strike :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 Irish and Proud


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Well it is simple really .

    If everything is offically delayed till 2010 and if there is no land take and contracts signed for any road project in 2009 this means nothing can start in 2010 .

    The land for the N11 Arklow to Rathnew scheme was bought a couple of years ago. AFAIK, the tender process is underway too, but the contract signing has been delayed. In conclusion, I guess that the only obstacle to the project concerned is money! However, as the scheme has been already approved, it will lapse if the government doesn't get the finger out soon.

    Regards!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭✭✭ Cian R


    Alot of towns have been forgotten about by the NRA: Stranorlar/Ballybofey, Lifford, Carrick on Shannon, Tuam, Claregalway, Gort, Roscommon town, Ballaghaderreen, Birr, Blessington, Mountmellick, Athy, Castlecomer, Listowel, Castleisland, Farranfore, Tralee, Tipperary, Mallow, Adare, Charleville, Abbeyfeale, Newcastle West, Templemore, Enniscorthy, New Ross, Carrick on Suir, Macroom, Carrigaline, Lismore and Tramore

    If I have forgotten any just say so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ lookinggoodson


    Does anyone know if the N26 stage 2 (Ballina to the N5) will ever get the go ahead or is it now just a total pipe dream. The current road is extreamly bad for the volume of traffic.

    How will the west ever develope when projects there are the first to get the chop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭ serfboard


    Just to let people know, I've started a new thread over on the infrastructure forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,839 ✭✭✭✭ galwayrush


    M17 is still likely.

    Claregalway takes 24k per day. Now lets assume that 20k (say) of it takes the M17 when built. I know it wont quite be that high, but adding the people that will use it instead of the current N17 and the extra traffic the motorway will generate, 20k is a reasonable figure.

    .

    Claregalway takes 30,000 plus per day. The proposed M17 will not make a significant difference to this, especially if it's tolled as the vast majority of the traffic is for Galway City, and most of the industrial estates are located close to the existing N17. The M17 will be 11 miles away.:eek: Galway needs a dual carriageway to replace the N17 from Laughgeorge way more than a motorway from Tuam to Athenry. The M17 should be moved closer to Galway so that it can service where it's needed most and still be part of the Atlantic corridor.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    So I was right .

    Gort Crusheen started . no Newlands Cross because nobody made a fuss did they ??

    Castleisland added back on after being cancelled , all €30m of it . Tom McEllistrims seat in North Kerry was threatened again I'll wager and FF want Healy Raes seat back in South Kerry .


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