Remembrance Sunday = PoPpY DaY

LordSutch

Yes folks its that time of the year again – a time to Remember – a time to reflect – a time to wear a Poppy - (& if you live in Ireland) a time to forget all those who died in past conflicts, a time for confusion – a time for Political division - a time to pretend past generations didn’t fall on the PoPpY fields of Flanders & in the trenches of two World Wars & beyond.

This letter was in the ‘Irish Times’ (Monday 6th/Oct).

“Remembrance Sunday” Now that Irish society generally recognises and commemorates the Irish men and women who gave their lives in the two World Wars and other conflicts, would it not be appropriate for the Roman Catholic Church to do likewise at Masses on Remembrance Sunday next Month? – Yours etc . . .

“So why don’t Irish people (Protestants aside) not wear the Poppy as a mark of respect on or around Armistice Sunday”? considering the large number of Irish men (RC & CoI) who died in the two World Wars?

The older I get the more I realise just how fragile & how short life really is, & just how many Irish men gave their lives and died in those Two World Wars, & yet many of us refuse to wear the Poppy to Commerate all those who never came home & died on the PoPpY fields.

In the first World War Fifty thousand Irish men died in the field of battle, & in the second World War Twenty Thousand Irish men died in battle, which adds up to a total of Seventy Thousand (approx) Irish men who gave their lives in the two World Wars ~ and yet many Irish folk still refuse to wear the PoPpY, even though so many of our own Grandads & Great Grandads died on the Somme or on the Normandy beaches or elsewhere in Europe!

I wear my Poppy with pride on the streets of Dublin at this time every year, & I just think it’s a sad reflection on Irish society that so few mark the week, bearing in mind that so many of the Great War & WWII descendents must be walking our City streets today!

So I wonder are many of us oblivious? or do we not care what our ancestors did?

Latchy

I think people do care .I also think we are coming to a period when they wont care who does wear it or not .It will cease to be a point of issue and will be worn as much as the lilly symbol is on easter sunday rising rememberence .

luckat

I don't wear a poppy and i don't wear a lily, for the same reason: their symbolism is not remembering the fallen, but something quite different.

LordSutch

Please Clarify ...........

Tabnabs

I have family who died in WW1. I think it is extremely laudable to encourage the people of Ireland to remember their war dead. However, please don't force any symbol down my throat. I choose to remember my family throughout the year. Not on some token day which means nothing to my family. My great great uncle died in Flanders, for him the eleventh hour came too late...

LordSutch

Dyflin wrote: »

I have family who died in WW1. I think it is extremely laudable to encourage the people of Ireland to remember their war dead. However, please don't force any symbol down my throat. I choose to remember my family throughout the year. Not on some token day which means nothing to my family. My great great uncle died in Flanders, for him the eleventh hour came too late...

Sorry Dyflin (No forcing intended), but for several generations it has been a tradition that only the Protestant Churches & their Congregations wear Poppies, even though they are/were in the minority, while the majority of Irish men who died on the PoPpY fields were Roman Catholic!

I am just posing the questiion "Why so few Poppies" worn in the Republic?

Latchy

Camelot wrote: »

I am just posing the questiion "Why so few Poppies" worn in the Republic?

Because it's a british symbol which is remembering the dead of the great war while another little war against british occupation was being fought in ireland at same time .That's the main and simple reason the poppy was not worn in ireland .But times are changing .

LordSutch

Ah Ha, but this is where you are totally wrong latchyco .....................

Fifty Thousand IRISH Men died in the Great War, but can you tell me how many died in the rising (1916)?

And as regards the Poppy being a 'British Symbol' I am afriad you are totally incorrect, because all funds collected through the sale of Poppies in the Republic of Ireland go towards the Irish PoPpY Appeal Fund for (Irish War veterans or their Widows).

A Dub in Glasgo

The idea of decoupling Armistice Day , the red poppy and later Remembrance Day from their military culture dates back to 1926, just a few years after the British Legion was persuaded to try using the red poppy as a fundraising tool in Britain.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

Latchy

Camelot wrote: »

Ah Ha, but this is where you are totally wrong latchyco .....................

Thirty Five thousand IRISH Men died in the Great War 1914-1918, can you tell me how many died in the rising (1916)?

That has nothing to do with my last post were i simply stated that while the great war was taken place in europe ,another one was going on over in ireland against british occupation ,nothing at all or mention about irish statistics and casualitys of either conflict .

And as regards being a 'British Symbol' I am afriad you are totally incorrect, because all funds collected through the sale of Poppies in the Republic of Ireland go towards the Irish PoPpY Appeal Fund for (Irish War veterans or their Widows)

Yes but it's originally a british symbol of british war dead ,of which a % will be men from north and south of ireland .I was aware of the irish poppy appeal .I am more familier with the british one through livin g in UK

TOMASJ

Irish people have died in wars the world over 'Spain America ect and as we have the easter lilly for remembrance of Irish dead, why should there be a need to wear only the symbol of wars fought on behalf of the British and not other country's.

luckyfrank

I dont see peter robinson or ian paisley wearing shamrocks on paddys day do you ?

Point is the poppy whether right or wrong is seeing by many irish people as a very british unionist symbol

Latchy

I think you will find that various associations remember other conflicts of which irish people fought and died but perhaps on a smaller scale that does not make headlines like poppy days / memorial sundays .The american civil war memorials will attract many irish americans in america but nothing except goverment permission to stop anybody celerbrating it or or irish involved conflicts in ireland either .I know some korea/ vietnam veterns who on ocassions lay a wreath at a memorial in tipparary to the irishmen who fought and died in that conflict

Serenity Now!

And between 1939 and 1945 the country's government hypocritically sat on its hands yet enjoyed what the Allied victory over the Axis nations delivered to them after the war. Lets not even get started on the letter of condolence to the German Embassy by deValera upon the news of Hitler's death or the paltry number of wartime refugees the country allowed upon its shores.

A Dub in Glasgo

A much more appropriate way of remembering the sheer butchery and stupidity of WW1 is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ba-64h6d6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZvI3_q0n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpLvjDcM1E

Latchy

The last over the Top scene in black adder was very ant- war

luckyfrank

Serenity Now! wrote: »

And between 1939 and 1945 the country's government hypocritically sat on its hands yet enjoyed what the Allied victory over the Axis nations delivered to them after the war. Lets not even get started on the letter of condolence to the German Embassy by deValera upon the news of Hitler's death or the paltry number of wartime refugees the country allowed upon its shores.

We both know the irish goverment gave special treatment to the british during WW2 its use of its ports and returning of soldiers while there german counterparts were kept in internment camps until after the war

We were netrual but we bent it for britain

Serenity Now!

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A much more appropriate way of remembering the sheer butchery and stupidity of WW1 is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ba-64h6d6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZvI3_q0n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpLvjDcM1E

Or watch the ultra-satirical 'Oh What A Lovely War!'

brianthebard

Oh dear this again.

latchyco wrote: »

That has nothing to do with my last post were i simply stated that while the great war was taken place in europe ,another one was going on over in ireland against british occupation ,nothing at all or mention about irish statistics and casualitys of either conflict .

Yes but it's originally a british symbol of british war dead ,of which a % will be men from north and south of ireland .I was aware of the irish poppy appeal .I am more familier with the british one through livin g in UK

No, no its not, that's factually incorrect.

http://www.abcteach.com/MonthtoMonth/Holidays/poppy_a.pdf

http://www.rsa.org.nz/remem/poppy_sig.html

Used by an American woman as a symbol of remembrance after the war it was taken up by the French as a badge that could be used for fund raising.

Mint Sauce

tbh, i dont even think i have seen poppys on sale here in the lead up to rememberence sunday

LordSutch

luckyfrank wrote: »

We both know the irish goverment gave special treatment to the british during WW2 its use of its ports and returning of soldiers while there german counterparts were kept in internment camps until after the war

We were netrual but we bent it for Britain

And we supplied (willingly) tens of thousands of Irish Men to help conquer Hitler - some returned - many thousands did not return - so for them (and my Grand Father who died in the Great War 1916) I wear the PoPpY as a mark of respect, and also to remember the futility of War.

Poppies are available on the streets of Dublin prior to the 11th/Nov - they are also readily available in all Protestant Churches on the 11th/ or nearest Sunday - all procedes go towards the Irish PoPpY Appeal Fund for Irish War veterans (or their widows) in the Republic of Ireland only.

Amazotheamazing

Wasn't there briefly a green poppy being worn by Irish people?

I would probably only wear one to upset the ultra nationalists, though it's a good cause, I don't bother with wearing shamrock much either.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Camelot wrote: »

I wear the PoPpY as a mark of respect, and also to remember the futility of War.

More power to you. I'll never wear a Poppy (or spell it PoPpY???) for the same reason I'd never wear an Easter Lilly - they are symbols whose meanings have been hijacked and sullied.

Serenity Now!

luckyfrank wrote: »

We both know the irish goverment gave special treatment to the british during WW2 its use of its ports and returning of soldiers while there german counterparts were kept in internment camps until after the war

We were netrual but we bent it for britain

Bugger all. Two ports in the northwest, an airfield for another neutral country and what else?
Ireland was 'neutral' but "bent it" for no-one but themselves and still do.
Yet to remember the thousands who volunteered to fight that war (with the British military) expect nothing but disdain and over the top condemnation from certain quarters in the country.

I never really knew much about the 'Emergency' until I saw a Cathal O'Shannon documentary on TV. An eye opener to say the least. Then I started reading some of the authors' whose work was used in that programme (Dermot Keogh, Ferriter - guy who writes for The Examiner, Robert Kee).

Tabnabs

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A much more appropriate way of remembering the sheer butchery and stupidity of WW1 is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ba-64h6d6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZvI3_q0n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpLvjDcM1E

Try reading 'All Quiet on the Western Front' (German: Im Westen nichts Neues). First printed in the late 20s and a harrowing account of life in the trenches. Far more poignant than any BBC sitcom...

LordSutch

In relation to Post#23, I have told you that the procedes of the Irish Poppy Appeal Fund are for Irish War veterans & their widows only, I cant add any more really The symbol is certainly not sullied - unless for some reason you discount the memory of those tens of thousands of Irish Men who never came Home!

Latchy

Dyflin wrote: »

Try reading 'All Quiet on the Western Front' (German: Im Westen nichts Neues). First printed in the late 20s and a harrowing account of life in the trenches. Far more poignant than any BBC sitcom...

The original film of the book is also worth seeing .They made a hollywood sequil a few years back but havent seen it .

I trhink the black adder (sitcom) scene were they go over the top is memoriable for it's black humor about the absurdities of war and that war in particular

Camelot wrote: »

In relation to Post#23, I have told you that the procedes of the Irish Poppy Appeal Fund are for Irish War veterans & their widows only, I cant add any more really The symbol is certainly not sullied - unless for some reason you discount the memory of those tens of thousands of Irish Men who never came Home!

Indeed but irish or british poppy for that matter it is to remember all men, irish and british alike who fought and died together .

brianthebard

latchyco wrote: »

The original film of the book is also worth seeing .They made a hollywood sequil a few years back but havent seen it .

I trhink the black adder (sitcom) scene were they go over the top is memoriable for it's black humor about the absurdities of war and that war in particular


Indeed but irish or british poppy for that matter it is to remember all men, irish and british alike who fought and died together .

Why do you feel it is a bad thing to commemorate the lives of men who fell in a war that was not their doing? Its not a statement in support of war, its showing solidarity with the men who died for a pointless cause, telling them that their lives were not in vain. How much do you actually know about the poppy and how much is tied to "poppy British-british bad,grrr"? Despite my links to actual facts on the the poppy symbols origins you seem intent on labelling it a british symbol. Why is that?

i71jskz5xu42pb

Camelot wrote: »

In relation to Post#23, I have told you that the procedes of the Irish Poppy Appeal Fund are for Irish War veterans & their widows only, I cant add any more really

Does not matter where the money is going. If I was out selling swastikas for blind puppy dogs I doubt I'd get many sales. That's because the symbol is what people see and wear.

Camelot wrote: »

The symbol is certainly not sullied - unless for some reason you discount the memory of those tens of thousands of Irish Men who never came Home!

You've a tenuous grasp of logic there - I doubt that the poppy communicates its original message so that implies I disrespect the people who went to war?

Ask most people what they associate the poppy and Easter lilly with and they'll tell you the British army and the the shinners respectively. Sullied symbols in my opinion.

gurramok

This poppy issue has been debated to death before(see threads in run-up to previous Nov 11th commemorations)

I'll restate what i said before. Those thousands who signed up in WW1 including my grandfather did not fight for Britain out of loyalty but for securing Home Rule for Ireland as a gateway to freedom as well as a way out of poverty.

For WW2, the latter option was available for those too poor.

The poppy has been hijacked by the ultra-unionist lobby over decades and do not represent a host of nationalities who died in Belgium in WW1, the likes of the French for example.

Of course, its about time the Irish govt had a remembrance ceremony to remember all Irish men who had fallen no matter what army they were enlisted under.

gandalf

Serenity Now! wrote: »

And between 1939 and 1945 the country's government hypocritically sat on its hands yet enjoyed what the Allied victory over the Axis nations delivered to them after the war. Lets not even get started on the letter of condolence to the German Embassy by deValera upon the news of Hitler's death or the paltry number of wartime refugees the country allowed upon its shores.

Given that the country had undergone a rising, a war of independence and a civil war I think that De Valera was to be commended for keeping the republic out of World War 2. It's one of the few things that I believe he did right.

He made a major gaff with the letter of condolence but then again the full extend of what the Nazi's perpetrated was not clear at that stage.

As for the poppy issue I would consider it a pro war symbol even if its not intended as one. I went to a Protestant Secondary School and I would not condemn someone if they wanted to wear one especially if members of their own family fell in either of those conflicts. I have the same feeling towards the lily as well.

Unfortunately in this country both North and South symbols that are supposed to represent something good and honourable are normally hijacked for the purposes of triumphalism of one type or another.

Latchy

brianthebard wrote: »

Why do you feel it is a bad thing to commemorate the lives of men who fell in a war that was not their doing? Its not a statement in support of war, its showing solidarity with the men who died for a pointless cause, telling them that their lives were not in vain. How much do you actually know about the poppy and how much is tied to "poppy British-british bad,grrr"? Despite my links to actual facts on the the poppy symbols origins you seem intent on labelling it a british symbol. Why is that?

Hold on , i think your dancing to the wrong tune here .Are you reading my post correctly ? Were on this thread have i said it was wrong to commemorate the lives of men who fell into a war not of their doing ? When has a war ever being the the ordianary soldiers doing Were is the poppy British -british bad reference in my posts ? As for your educating me on the history of the poppy.I march and wear the poppy in the London parade ever november 9th .i dont need to open your link (in an unknown file) Millions of ordinary british people and ex-veterans ,as well as many other around the world wear it as a reference to remember all who died not just in the great war but all wars and conflicts .We are all capable of looking up google for an indepth reference to the poppy or anything else .

When have you marched in a poppy day parade ? are you confusing me with gandalf ?

Edit - my reference to the absurities of war ,all wars is true .Wars are arranged by politicians and madmen .We remember the men who had to fight these horrible wars, not the bastards who started them

LordSutch

gandalf wrote: »

Given that the country had undergone a rising, a war of independence and a civil war I think that De Valera was to be commended for keeping the republic out of World War 2. It's one of the few things that I believe he did right.

I beg to disagree with you on that one Gangalf, I mean to say, hundreds of Allied ships were lost as a direct result of the Ports not being in the loop! (thanks to Dev) who in my opinion was at best awkward & blinkered.

gandalf wrote: »

He made a major gaff with the letter of condolence but then again the full extend of what the Nazi's perpetrated was not clear at that stage.

Ah come on now Gandalf, I would have thought that by the time of Hitlers death the full extent of what the Nazi's did was apparent for all to see (even in Ireland)?

gandalf wrote: »

As for the poppy issue I would consider it a pro war symbol even if its not intended as one. I went to a Protestant Secondary School and I would not condemn someone if they wanted to wear one especially if members of their own family fell in either of those conflicts. I have the same feeling towards the lily as well.

No no no Gandalf, the wearing of the Poppy is not to glorify War but to remember those who never came Home & who fell on the Poppy fields of Flanders - 'Pro War' does Not come into the equation, for it is a sad & solemn time of the year, a time to reflect on Death & the futility of War, and in the context of myself, the wearing of the Poppy is to remember my own Grandfather from Dun Laoghaire.

gandalf wrote: »

Unfortunately in this country both North and South symbols that are supposed to represent something good and honourable are normally hijacked for the purposes of triumphalism of one type or another.

Sorry Gandalf, but you & I are not seeing eye to eye on this one, as I have just said in the previous paragraph 'Pro War' or Triumphalism does not come into it - please see above ^.

bobbysands81

Camelot,

Do you wear an Easter Lily to remember the dead of the Easter Rising?

ardmacha

The poppy has been hijacked by the ultra-unionist lobby over decades and do not represent a host of nationalities who died in Belgium in WW1, the likes of the French for example

The wearing of paper poppies is a statement of British imperialism and has no place in this country which has been the major victim of this imperialism. The West British faction in this country have prevented Ireland taking its rightful role in the commemoration of the First World War by conflating this imperialist poppy usage with the idea of the commemoration. French, Belgians, Italians, Austrians, Czechs, Hungarians and a dozen other nationalities commemorate a European war without British imperialist paper poppies and we should do likewise.

gandalf

Camelot wrote: »

I beg to disagree with you on that one Gangalf, I mean to say, hundreds of Allied ships were lost as a direct result of the Ports not being in the loop! (thanks to Dev) who in my opinion was at best awkward & blinkered.

Well we are going to have to disagree, but a country that lost so many men in WW1, went through a rising, a war of independence and then a civil war. was a new country on the world stage trying to assert her identity would have been swallowed up in the quagmire of WW2 and lost whatever identity they were trying to mould.

I believe it was the right decision and I hold to that view and its a view of a lot of people in this country.

Ah come on now Gandalf, I would have thought that by the time of Hitlers death the full extent of what the Nazi's did was apparent for all to see (even in Ireland)?

Well you think that then, but unlike today you didn't have Sky News to give you 24 hours coverage of the war. I am sure that information was there but the scale of the crimes of the third reich would have only become apparent after VE day.

No no no Gandalf, the wearing of the Poppy is not to glorify War but to remember those who never came Home & who fell on the Poppy fields of Flanders - 'Pro War' does Not come into the equation, for it is a sad & solemn time of the year, a time to reflect on Death & the futility of War, and in the context of myself, the wearing of the Poppy is to remember my own Grandfather from Dun Laoghaire.

I am sorry you are wrong. I am talking about peoples perception here. My perception is the wearing of the poppy or lily is glorifying war and wallowing in the past. Its obviously different from yours but it is none the less a valid point and I know I share this perception with a lot of people as well.

Sorry Gandalf, but you & I are not seeing eye to eye on this one, as I have just said in the previous paragraph 'Pro War' or Triumphalism does not come into it - please see above ^.

Well we shall agree to disagree then.

Mad Finn

Camelot wrote: »

“So why don’t Irish people (Protestants aside) not wear the Poppy as a mark of respect on or around Armistice Sunday”? .......
In the first World War Three hundred & fifty thousand Irish men died in the field of battle,

Why don't we?

Maybe it's because people like you who want others to see things your way prefer a romantic, skewed and inaccurate version of the past to the facts. Because the facts can paint an inconvenient truth.

For a start, your numbers are way out. Even the Islandbridge War Memorial only claims that about 50,000 Irishmen died in the first world war. So you're only out by a factor of 700 per cent!

But even that figure is inaccurate. The Islandbridge memorial, to the best of my knowledge, only refers to men who died while serving with named Irish regiments. Although the majority of these were indeed "from the island of Ireland" a significant proportion were from the rest of the UK. Nor is it the case that eveybody serving in, say, the Royal Dublin Fusiliers was an Englishman of Irish origin as you might think. Why was this? Well that's debatable and I'm happy to debate it but for the moment I'll decline the temptation to sidetrack.

Of course this is offset to some degree by the fact that many Irishmen, especially those living in England, served in other non-Irish regiments. There was a batallion of the Northumberland Fusiliers who were known informally as the Tyneside Irish because so many of them were Irish or of Irish origin. And many Irishmen served in specialist units like the Artillery and the Medical corps.

It is hard to get an exact figure of how many Irishmen actually died in WWI. Some researchers now are converging on a figure of about 35,000 but all are agreed that this is merely an estimate.

But that's just an estimate of the facts. What we are really talking about is how, nearly a 100 years later, we should look at the war and our role in it?

Wearing the poppy is to take, in a general sense, the benign British view of the war. It was a war for the "rights of small nations", or "to make the world safe for democracy" or "against German militarism". Although people concede that the causes of the war for complex, few in Britain would ever admit that they were in any way culpable.

But in my view, they were. The First World War was an explosion caused by the rivalry between the traditional empires, Britain, France, Austria and Russia and the emerging ones Germany and Italy.

Each of these countries was jockeying for position, trying to maintain and extend their posessions and influence or trying to grow it from scratch.

As the stakes grew higher, they were each afraid of the other and were forced into marriages of convenience with empires that had earlier been their enemies.

Complicating the matter further was the growing national consciousness of each empire's subject peoples. As the world as a whole gradually completed the move to a modern industrial society, with its attendant needs for greater universal education and freedom of trade, national movements grew. Ireland was no exception.

All empires were keen to encourage the independence of subject peoples--as long as they were in their rivals' empires. The British got very hot under the collar at the thought of Belgium being overrun; the Germans generously donated arms to both sides of the quarrel in Ireland.

At the end of the war, a load of new states were created--all from the remnants of the Austrian, German, Ottoman and Russian empires. What happened to Germany's possessions in Africa? Independence for small nations? I don't think so. They were divided up between the British, French and Belgians.

What happened to the Ottoman Empire? Carved up initially between the British and French and gradually handed over to puppet minorities who were widely despised by their people. We're still living with the consequences of that.

People who wear the poppy can pretend that they are remembering an earlier generation of IRishmen united in a great cause. The phrase "catholic and protestant standing shoulder to shoulder against a common enemy" is often mentioned. In fact, those same catholics and protestants had been willing a few months before the start of the war to tear at each other's throats and showed subsequently that they were well able to do so again.

I take no pride in a generation of Irishmen that were treated as cannon fodder by another country's empire. Even though several of them were my forebears and relatives. Instead I am angry about the terrible waste and cynical manipulation of their sense of duty and patriotism.

And I have nothing but contempt for those who want to encourage a similar mindset in our children's generation for this era's nebulous "great cause" variously described as the "war on terror" or the "fight against Islamo Fascism". You'll find that many of those will be wearing poppies around about now and sniffing at the rest of us for "writing our men out of history".

We're not writing them out of history. On the contrary, we know more about the real history than the charlatans who want to distort the facts.

Serenity Now!

gandalf wrote: »

Given that the country had undergone a rising, a war of independence and a civil war I think that De Valera was to be commended for keeping the republic out of World War 2. It's one of the few things that I believe he did right

Yes, you could use that as an excuse for toeing-the-water to see who would come out on top before any form of commitment at a decisive time, no worries. And he did.

gandalf wrote: »

He made a major gaff with the letter of condolence but then again the full extend of what the Nazi's perpetrated was not clear at that stage

At that time, the Nuremberg Race Laws were known and the methodology of the Nazi Party in German life was known. It was also very well "known" that Poland was annexed by Germany and the USSR. In 1940, France and Norway had fallen. By 1942 the gating in of Jews into crowded ghettos was "known".

tbh

I proudly wear the poppy to remember the waste of all the lives of my countrymen (and all the others who were butchered), some of whom died at half my age, who were lied to and tricked by the governments of the day, and who sacrificed their lives thinking they were doing the right thing. It's got nothing to do with the Brits, or the Irish, or the Germans, or the Free State or any of that. It's to remember the sacrifices of normal guys, who went to their death, rightly or wrongly, for me. It's my way of thanking them, and I couldn't give a bollocks what anyone thinks, I'll wear it all November, every November.

gandalf

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Yes, you could use that as an excuse for toeing-the-water to see who would come out on top before any form of commitment at a decisive time, no worries. And he did.

Well if by that comment you mean that Ireland stayed Neutral then yes we did. However it was a biased neutrality.

As can be seen from these extracts from Viscount Cranborne, the British Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, who wrote a letter to the British War Cabinet regarding Irish-British collaboration during 1939-1945

1. They agreed to our use of Lough Foyle for naval and air purposes. The ownership of the Lough is disputed, but the Southern Irish authorities are tacitly not pressing their claim in present conditions and are also ignoring any flying by our aircraft over the Donegal shore of the Lough, which is necessary in certain wind conditions to enable flying boats to take off the Lough.
2. They have agreed to use by our aircraft based on Lough Erne of a corridor over Southern Irish territory and territorial waters for the purpose of flying out to the Atlantic.
3. They have arranged for the immediate transmission to the United Kingdom Representative’s Office in Dublin of reports of submarine activity received from their coast watching service.
4. They arranged for the broadening of reports by their Air observation Corps of aircraft sighted over or approaching Southern Irish territory. (This does not include our aircraft using the corridor referred to in (b) above.)
5. They arranged for the extinction of trade and business lighting in coastal towns where such lighting was alleged to afford a useful landmark for German aircraft.
6. They have continued to supply us with meteorological reports.
7. They have agreed to the use by our ships and aircraft of two wireless direction-finding stations at Malin Head.
8. They have supplied particulars of German crashed aircraft and personnel crashed or washed ashore or arrested on land.
9. They arranged for staff talks on the question of co-operation against a possible German invasion of Southern Ireland, and close contact has since been maintained between the respective military authorities.
10. They continue to intern all German fighting personnel reaching Southern Ireland. On the other hand, though after protracted negotiations, Allied service personnel are now allowed to depart freely and full assistance is given in recovering damaged aircraft.
11. Recently, in connection with the establishment of prisoner of war camps in Northern Ireland, they have agreed to return or at least intern any German prisoners who may escape from Northern Ireland across the border to Southern Ireland.
12. They have throughout offered no objection to the departure from Southern Ireland of persons wishing to serve in the United Kingdom Forces nor to the journey on leave of such persons to and from Southern Ireland (in plain clothes).
13. They have continued to exchange information with our security authorities regarding all aliens (including Germans) in Southern Ireland.
14. They have (within the last few days) agreed to our establishing a Radar station in Southern Ireland for use against the latest form of submarine activity.


In 1944 the number of members of the British Army who were born in the Republic was 27,840.

Looks like they were toeing on one side of the fence there.

At that time, the Nuremberg Race Laws were known and the methodology of the Nazi Party in German life was known. It was also very well "known" that Poland was annexed by Germany and the USSR. In 1940, France and Norway had fallen. By 1942 the gating in of Jews into crowded ghettos was "known".

Actually a lot of it was not known as you say again I submit that they didn't have the ability to get information as quickly as we do today. Also it was admitted by Michael McDowell "that a culture of muted anti-semitism in Ireland" and that the government of the time "at an official level the Irish state was at best coldly polite and behind closed doors antipathetic, hostile and unfeeling toward the Jews" unfortunately they were not the only government with this attitude.

Look at the British treatment of the Jewish refugees from Nazi held territories during the war.

However, when World War II broke out, Britain banned all emigration from
Nazi-controlled territories. Throughout the rest of the war, only some 10,000
Jewish refugees managed to find their way into Britain. In addition, the British
White Paper of 1939 further limited European Jewry's chances of finding
refuge in that it restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine, which was under
the control of the British Mandate authorities.

For the lucky Jews who had successfully reached Britain before it closed its
doors at the beginning of the war, life was not easy. Many highly educated
people could only find work as domestics. After Germany invaded and
conquered several Northern and Western European countries in mid-1940,
the British public began to panic. Fearing that anyone with a German accent
might be a spy, the British government began imprisoning Germans and
Austrians who had settled in Britain, calling them "enemy aliens." This
included Jewish refugees from Nazi-occupied Germany and Austria. About
30,000 were interned in camps in Britain itself (where in some cases Jews
and pro-Nazi Germans were put together), while 8,000 were deported to
Canada and Australia (some of whom died when their ships were hit by
torpedoes). As the threat of a German invasion passed, the prisoners were
released and some of the deportees were returned to Britain.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206312.pdf

Mad Finn

tbh wrote: »

It's my way of thanking them.

Thanking them for what?

Fratton Fred

Mad Finn wrote: »

Wearing the poppy is to take, in a general sense, the benign British view of the war. It was a war for the "rights of small nations", or "to make the world safe for democracy" or "against German militarism". Although people concede that the causes of the war for complex, few in Britain would ever admit that they were in any way culpable.

wow, that view of WWI went out the window around 50 years ago. The way it is taught in schools now is pretty much how you described, a clash of imperial nations, the arms race etc etc.

To summerise from a British perspective, Britain fancied its chances against the german empire, the French or any other european empire. what it didn;t fancy was the thought of Germany taking over France and controlling the might of both armiea, that would have been too much especially with the rush to build Dreadnoughts.

The Poppy came from this war to symbolise the futility of it all and the mass slaughter that was the western front. It is a classless non political symbol to commemorate those that died.

If people don't want to wear one because they believe it carries other meanings, such as glorifying war etc then fine, as long as they respect the reason's why I do (and am currently) wear one.

tbh

Mad Finn wrote: »

Thanking them for what?

for going. For their sacrifice. For doing what they saw as their duty. I would have thought that was pretty clear.

Mad Finn

Serenity Now! wrote: »

At that time, the Nuremberg Race Laws were known and the methodology of the Nazi Party in German life was known.

By the standards of the time, what was so terrible about the Nuremberg Laws?

Many US states, I think about half of them at the time, still had "Anti Miscegenation Laws" which were identical in character to one of the two Nuremberg Laws, the "Law for Protection of German Blood and Honour". These laws forbade marriage or sexual relations between whites and various other races, specifically "blacks" in all cases and also "Hindus" in others.

Should we have gone to war against the US because of these discriminatory and awful laws?

The other Nuremberg Law stripped Jews of German citizenship. So they weren't able to do things like vote, or hold elected office. And in some cases they were not allowed eat or go to the toilet in the same place as "real" Germans. An identical state of affairs existed in southern US states until the 1960s. Why didn't we go to war against America in the 1950s?

After all, Germany got rid of her race laws in the 1940s. America kept hers until 1967. That is in the life time of two of the current candidates in the US election, Obama and Palin.

Methinks there were other reasons for WWII than concern for our Jewish Brethern.

gandalf

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If people don't want to wear one because they believe it carries other meanings, such as glorifying war etc then fine, as long as they respect the reason's why I do (and am currently) wear one.

I would never condemn someone for their own personal held views and I respect people who wear it in remembrance of their relatives who made the ultimate sacrifice.

My problem is with the symbolism of it and they way some warp it for their own political means.

Fratton Fred

Mad Finn wrote: »

Methinks there were other reasons for WWII than concern for our Jewish Brethern.

the small matter of Hitler invading every and any country he could may have played a small part as well

tbh

gandalf wrote: »

I would never condemn someone for their own personal held views and I respect people who wear it in remembrance of their relatives who made the ultimate sacrifice.

My problem is with the symbolism of it and they way some warp it for their own political means.

fair enough - but why don't you take the symbol back? Wear the poppy, and when someone asks you why you wear it, tell them.

Lauder

I will be wearing mine as usual. There are becoming a more familiar site on Irish streets every year, and donations have gone up threefold since 2004.


If people want to buy a poppy they will be sellers on in Dublin: Grafton Street (St.Stephens Green SC), Clontarf (Vernon Avenue Village), Malahide Village, Donnybrook Village in the run up to Armistice day.

Cork, Limerick and Galway likewise and some other locations. (Most CofI Churches as wells and a few RC ones.

Liam Byrne

Camelot wrote:

for several generations it has been a tradition that only the Protestant Churches & their Congregations wear Poppies

Camelot wrote:

they are also readily available in all Protestant Churches on the 11th/ or nearest Sunday

Based on the above two posts, aren't you answering your own question ?

Mad Finn

Camelot wrote:

Yes folks its that time of the year again – a time to Remember – a time to reflect – a time to wear a Poppy - (& if you live in Ireland) a time to forget all those who died in past conflicts, a time for confusion – a time for Political division - a time to pretend past generations didn’t fall on the PoPpY fields of Flanders & in the trenches of two World Wars & beyond.

The pompous presumptuous self-righteous self-congratulatory tone of your opening post is despicable. You assume that because people don't share the same view of history as you that they have forgotten it.

Rubbish!!

I will bet my bottom dollar that I know a damned sight more about the first world war and the Irishmen who fought in it than you do. Your opening howler about 350,000 Irish fatalities shows that you are indeed careless with your facts.

I just don't look back on it with the same chest-swelling sense of pride that you do, and neither should I.

You sneer that in Ireland, looking back on the war is "a time for Political Division" Why shouldn't it be? None of us have the same view on the events of the present--why should we be expected to share identical interpretations about the past?

There is much to learn about World War One:

The way in which it mutated from a vengeful local expedition to punish a terrorist outrage to a conflagration which consumed most of Europe and many parts of the world controlled by European powers.

The way in which the Great Powers realigned themselves for reasons of pure expediency with countries against whom they had fought murderous battles little over a generation before. There would have been many people alive during the first world war, for example, who remembered the Crimean war, when the British fought with the Turks to prevent Russian encroachment on the Balkans and the Bosphorus. (In 1915, they invaded Turkey for just the opposite reason)

The way in which it completely destablised Europe and rushed into existence a load of new countries that were not resilient enough in their own right to withstand the ethnic, economic and strategic turbulence that they faced. I concede that it would probably have been very much better for Ireland if home rule had come in by act of law and that we proceeded democratically from there. We would probably be pretty much where we are now, but with a lot less bitterness and "division" as was caused by our internecine struggles.

We have the first world war to "thank" for that.

If you want to "Give thanks" to the men who tried to do that by standing in common cause and common attire with the successors of the very people who ordered them into that hellhole, be my guest. But don't expect me to share your sentiments.

We don't forget the First World War, mate. Some of us are only too clear about its causes and its consequences.

tbh

I found your post very interesting and well-written, but I don't understand what you mean by the following:

Mad Finn wrote: »

If you want to "Give thanks" to the men who tried to do that by standing in common cause and common attire with the successors of the very people who ordered them into that hellhole, be my guest. But don't expect me to share your sentiments.

.

could you explain for me? (I'm not trying to lead you into a trap, genuinely interested in hearing more)