Report on motor trade - RTE News

driveshaft

Just saw a clip on RTE tonight about how a dealer laid off a load of staff recently and the owner of the dealership was complaining about UK imports (assuming legit, VRT'd and all) were affecting his business.

Are these people completely stupid...maybe they need it spelled out.
MAIN DEALERS HAVE BEEN RIPPING OFF THE COUNTRY WITH SUB-STANDARD CARS FOR LONG ENOUGH!!!! Now that money is tight people are getting cute with their cash. Hence, the surge in better specced cars from the UK which have seen nothing but motorway all their lives.

But the people who are getting on my nerves lately are the dealers' partner in crime (crime being the appropriate word!) - collectively known as the SIMI. Not content with filling news papers with threats of their members spying on those who go the VRT office one minute late, it noe appears that they are trying to prevent people selling cars privately. This came in the guise of a request for cars advertised for sale on the roadside to be lifted.

How long will it take for the dealers and the SIMI to cop on that their own practices are what's killing the industry?

fm

the distributors are responible for the price aswell not only the dealers.i assume the dealers work on percentage as do the british dealers so profit should be fairly close.

mike65

I imagine his was refering to "grey sales" ie roadside imports by individuals. Franchise garages can't complete with the guy with no overheads.

Mike

niceirishfella

The party is long over and the vested interests were all in it together - the importers, the retailers, and finance house's - they are sore now that they are getting up up the swiss and HARD!

The only pity i have is for the decent hard working staff that get let go in these situations.
I saw this report on the tv and it said that second hand values were down 25%.
I think its worse than that out there - more like 40% + in my experience of late.

maidhc

We are in a recession... why are people surprised when shiny new cars are not flying out the door?

Some businesses had it good in the boom years. If the owners of those businesses spent all that money, and have nothing to tide them over, well, tough.

junkyard

Most garages have left most of their staff go at this stage and there will be much worst to come in January and Feburary next year. The overheads in operating a main dealers is staggering tbh as stock is loosing money by the hour and the customer is always trying to squeeze the last penny out of a deal and the margins aren't as high as you'd like to think. Just because UK imports are nice and shiney they're not all as good as you'd like to think. OP, I don't know if you have your own business or not but business is the worst I've ever seen and anyone who doesn't admit it is either an idiot or a liar.

Guy:Incognito

driveshaft wrote: »

MAIN DEALERS SUB-STANDARD CARS

They dont generate their own 2nd hand cars, It's the people trading them in that have them in ****e.

junkyard

maidhc wrote: »

Some businesses had it good in the boom years. If the owners of those businesses spent all that money, and have nothing to tide them over, well, tough.

Some businesses have been very competitive for years and profits weren't high enough to have accumilated loads of money so factor in redundancies and fall off in business the end result is another business gone to the wall.

fm

maidhc wrote: »

Some businesses had it good in the boom years. If the owners of those businesses spent all that money, and have nothing to tide them over, well, tough.

sounds like the goverment

Guy:Incognito

maidhc wrote: »

Some businesses had it good in the boom years. If the owners of those businesses spent all that money, and have nothing to tide them over, well, tough.

Doesnt really matter whether they banked 5m for themsleves or not, nobody is going to keep paying staff to sit around a showroom looking out the window.

maidhc

Stekelly wrote: »

Doesnt really matter whether they banked 5m for themsleves or not, nobody is going to keep paying staff to sit around a showroom looking out the window.

Absolutely, it is hard on the ordinary employees (many of whom never saw the benefits of the celtic tiger to begin with), and there are going to be some very hard cases.

However, there has also been some serious money made on the back of apprentice mechanics and cars with "waiting lists" over the past few years.

maidhc

junkyard wrote: »

Some businesses have been very competitive for years and profits weren't high enough to have accumilated loads of money so factor in redundancies and fall off in business the end result is another business gone to the wall.

Possibly... but a small business ran a tight ship, and isn't overstaffed to begin with (common in many businesses IMO!), I would like to think they should be able to manage away.

btw... I was under the impression the panel beathing and general repair business isn't going too bad?

Bandara

Stekelly wrote: »

They dont generate their own 2nd hand cars, It's the people trading them in that have them in ****e.

Yes but maybe if Main Dealers didn't charge €280 & vat for a oil service that a junior did in 1hr 20 mins today while I waited then the cars could be kept in better condition by the owners

And I confirm that it was just an oil service NOTHING else was done whatsoever.

junkyard

Hammertime wrote: »

Yes but maybe if Main Dealers didn't charge €280 & vat for a oil service that a junior did in 1hr 20 mins today while I waited then the cars could be kept in better condition by the owners

And I confirm that it was just an oil service NOTHING else was done whatsoever.

And did it occur to you to ask how much it was going to cost before you got the job done? I know I would have.

jon1981

I really do feel bad by buying outside of the country but its become ridiculous here, we are totally robbed and it comes down to VRT, at least if the VRT was gone it would at least give the second hard car dealers here an equal playing field with the UK, but coupled with a better exchange rate and higher spec cars, they just cant compete. I myself will be buying soon and i have every intention of buying over seas, however i do notice the prices are tumbling down to the point were i may pay slightly over what i would pay in the UK for the convienience, but you can be sure the profit margins here on second hand cars are tight.

another example is i bought some watersports gear in the UK and saved 600 quid, like come on? how can we ignore the savings.

Seth Brundle

maidhc wrote: »

Absolutely, it is hard on the ordinary employees (many of whom never saw the benefits of the celtic tiger to begin with), and there are going to be some very hard cases.

They did have a job! If the Celtic Tiger never happened then they possibly would have been on the dole/emigrated!

Guy:Incognito

Hammertime wrote: »

Yes but maybe if Main Dealers didn't charge €280 & vat for a oil service that a junior did in 1hr 20 mins today while I waited then the cars could be kept in better condition by the owners

And I confirm that it was just an oil service NOTHING else was done whatsoever.

If thats all it was and you were waiting for it anyway you may as well have done it youself. That or gone somewhere cheaper.

Plenty of main dealers will do a service for less.(even in Dublin)

junkyard

jon1981 wrote: »

another example is i bought some watersports gear in the UK and saved 600 quid, like come on? how can we ignore the savings.

Tbh it's getting to the point where all the stealth taxes and the high cost of living here is gone way beyond a joke and it's very true that everything is cheaper in other countries the only problem is if everybody shops abroad then pretty soon there won't be any shops or garages or businesses left here and no employment either so it will end up as a nation living off the state until the country's broke and by the looks of it that might not be too far off. The powers that be really are breaking the last few straws that broke the camels back.:(

Hellrazer

Saw that interview alright.What happened over the boom times was that the dealers made massive profits and the top people in these dealers (Dealer principals and directors) paid themselves huge wages when the ordinary working employee (who btw made most of the money for them) were paid s**te Simi rates.

When times are bad these are the ones laid off and theyre the ones I feel sorry for the most.The top people in these dealers dont give a sh!t about their employees and treat them like dirt.

Even here theres probably going to be lay-offs in the upcoming weeks and probably more to come depending on Januarys sales.


The whole motor trade over here needs an overhaul.Out with the old fashioned fuddy duddys who inherited their dealer from their father/grandfather/grandmother whatever and in with some bright new young peeps who can change the way things are done.

/rant over/

ToxicPaddy

I think SIMI are like any representative body, they are trying to protect their industry and their members, granted their tactics can be a bit low sometimes but all fair in love n war as far as they are concerned..

The problem is as most have said it, is that the motor industry have been through such a good period and a lot in it have never known it to be any other way.. so when things start to come down its gonna hit them hard as lets face it, up until recently, most cars sold themselves.. if people wanted a new Bmw, Merc, Lexus etc most came in knowing exactly what they wanted and got it even if they couldnt really afford it.. with easy cheap credit and brand new shiny cars sitting on forecourts tempting people and some peoples compulsive need to show everyone how well they were doing by buying new cars, it didnt take long for them to be shifted..

Add to that the whole full service history from main dealers that a lot people buying second cars and the industry itself basically demanded to maintain a cars second hand value, it gave dealers free reign to charge a hefty sum for the price of that coveted stamp in the service manual..

Now credit is expensive, people are watching their pennies and what used to be a sure thing is now on very shaky ground.. So the people on the ground, selling the cars and not meeting targets, dealers mechanics are not servicing as many cars as people are going to local independents etc are the ones that usually will be the first to go..

The motor industry is essentially a luxury item provider and unless its essential for business most people buy new cars as a treat to themselves.. So when times are tough and money is short, its the luxuries that get cut back and thats whats happening..

Its no different to whats happening in any other service/retail sector at the moment.. they will just have to tighten their belts, trim the fat and ride out the storm..

Tox

crosstownk

driveshaft wrote: »

the owner of the dealership was complaining about UK imports (assuming legit, VRT'd and all) were affecting his business.

The same guy is doing his own share of importing new vehicles from the UK.........:rolleyes:

DEMON 90

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Add to that the whole full service history from main dealers that a lot people buying second cars and the industry itself basically demanded to maintain a cars second hand value, it gave dealers free reign to charge a hefty sum for the price of that coveted stamp in the service manual..


i have worked for a main dealersip in the past and the whole stamped log book lark is a joke , all it takes is a few stamps in a log book to create a full service history, 30 seconds work stamping the log book and hey presto: full service history, and when you get your car serviced at one of these main dealerships, the majority of the time it is serviced by a 1st year apprentice with minimal supervision at extotionate rates, propably more than the total weekly wage of the apprentice!

so to be honest i have little sympathy for the directors of these dealerships..

and ever wonder where the majority of the second hand cars come from that are listed by none SIMI dealers come from, yes you have quessed it the vast majority of them are trade ins that the main dealerships sell to other non SIMI dealers and back street traders,

Darragh29

maidhc wrote: »

Absolutely, it is hard on the ordinary employees (many of whom never saw the benefits of the celtic tiger to begin with), and there are going to be some very hard cases.

However, there has also been some serious money made on the back of apprentice mechanics and cars with "waiting lists" over the past few years.

I had this discussion with a colleague in the trade today and we both agree that it is a disgrace the money that mechanics are on.

You have some main dealerships in Dublin charging out three figure labour rates for aftersales work and the poor cu*t who is doing the work is on less than the minimum wage.

Darragh29

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

I think SIMI are like any representative body, they are trying to protect their industry and their members, granted their tactics can be a bit low sometimes but all fair in love n war as far as they are concerned..

The problem is as most have said it, is that the motor industry have been through such a good period and a lot in it have never known it to be any other way.. so when things start to come down its gonna hit them hard as lets face it, up until recently, most cars sold themselves.. if people wanted a new Bmw, Merc, Lexus etc most came in knowing exactly what they wanted and got it even if they couldnt really afford it.. with easy cheap credit and brand new shiny cars sitting on forecourts tempting people and some peoples compulsive need to show everyone how well they were doing by buying new cars, it didnt take long for them to be shifted..

Add to that the whole full service history from main dealers that a lot people buying second cars and the industry itself basically demanded to maintain a cars second hand value, it gave dealers free reign to charge a hefty sum for the price of that coveted stamp in the service manual..

Now credit is expensive, people are watching their pennies and what used to be a sure thing is now on very shaky ground.. So the people on the ground, selling the cars and not meeting targets, dealers mechanics are not servicing as many cars as people are going to local independents etc are the ones that usually will be the first to go..

The motor industry is essentially a luxury item provider and unless its essential for business most people buy new cars as a treat to themselves.. So when times are tough and money is short, its the luxuries that get cut back and thats whats happening..

Its no different to whats happening in any other service/retail sector at the moment.. they will just have to tighten their belts, trim the fat and ride out the storm..

Tox

The SIMI is not an industry representative organisation but is a lobby organisation for main dealer vested interests. They don't promote industry wide standards, they don't promote transparency in pricing or service standards, they are useless.

Hellrazer

crosstownk wrote: »

The same guy is doing his own share of importing new vehicles from the UK.........:rolleyes:

Yep when I worked in that group he used to import used Golfs from the Uk and sell them at extortionate prices on his forecourts.Average profit on each one was about 5k if I remember correctly.

Also agree with the earlier statement that 1st year apprentices are doing services that customers are paying 120+ per hour labour rate.Yet the apprentice is on less than the minimum wage.s
Its a joke--if youre paying 120 per hour then you want the fully trained / master standard bloke to do it.

and ever wonder where the majority of the second hand cars come from that are listed by none SIMI dealers come from, yes you have quessed it the vast majority of them are trade ins that the main dealerships sell to other non SIMI dealers and back street traders

^^^^Most main dealers have a "network" of trade bloke who buy the sh1t heaps off them and then retail them through the buyandsell etc.I cant even buy a trade car here at the same price these blokes are getting them for even if its something I wanted to buy for myself.

blackbox

VRT and imports have nothing to do with it.

VRT is applied to 2nd hand imports as well as to new cars - the reason imports are cheaper is because the 2nd had price in the UK is cheaper, even allowing for VRT.

Second hand prices are too high here because main dealers have been trying to protect their "Brand Value" by masking depreciation by offering too much for trade-ins.

Their overheads are high because they suffer (like other businesses) from paying too much for their premises, but they also got caught up in the property bubble and went mad investing way too much in new showrooms.

Lumen

Buying Irish for the sake of it just encourages inefficient, lazy business.

If the Government wants to encourage people to spend money here (rather than elsewhere in the EU), it should reduce VAT. They just did the opposite.

IMO main dealers with big fancy showrooms are a bit of an anachronism. I'd rather research using magazines and the internet, pay for long test drives/weekends from an independent company (like Hertz, but with a proper range of models), purchase online from the manufacturer and get servicing from independents. If all the dealers were to bust, I might just get my wish.

Hellrazer

blackbox wrote: »

Their overheads are high because they suffer (like other businesses) from paying too much for their premises, but they also got caught up in the property bubble and went mad investing way too much in new showrooms.

Too true--all the dealers that are going to the wall are the ones who invested in huge multi million euro showrooms in the last 18-24 months.A fair few of the dealers in Airside in Swords are in bad financial trouble according to the motor trade rumour mill.

Zube

Hellrazer wrote: »

all the dealers that are going to the wall are the ones who invested in huge multi million euro showrooms in the last 18-24 months.

Dealers were under pressure from manufacturers to invest in these palaces. I know of one Fiat dealer who looked at the figures and said he'd be in debt for the rest of his life if he built premises to meet Fiat's demands, so he gave up the franchise.

cantdecide

It's the fault of the government (or more accurately, the state). If there was a bread tax that meant you could buy fresh crap for €5 or alternatively, you could buy day-old speciality bread for €4, you would quickly realize that you're not that fussy about freshness.

No one in the country could look at a 1.4 ford focus and think it was worth €24k even if they wanted it enough to go and get the loan for it. Wouldn't you prefer a nice BMW for your €24k???

Abracadabra!! The first proper economic crisis and the greedy dealers are softly blubbing in their yachts. The dealers should be pushing against VRT entirely but there's the % rule coming into play again. No potential govt of the future is prepared to give up that cash cow.

So why exactly don't the dealers rally the general public against VRT??

Tipsy Mac

Yes its VRT thats killing them, if it wasnt around they would be in a position to sell more affordable cars to us and would also be able to export cars to the UK at prices comparable to there.

delly

I remember back in the late nineties hearing that we had the cheapest pre-tax prices in the EU, and it was the VRT and VAT that pumped up the price so much. I also remember seeing tonnes off ZZ plates being issued to UK residents. So what's changed, have the dealers over the years increased there cut of the pie meaning the UK don't come here as much or is it the currency factor (remember the punt)? Regardless of how much something costs, to buy anything in the UK at the moment is better value as the Euro is worth so much more.

Type 17

delly wrote: »

I remember back in the late nineties hearing that we had the cheapest pre-tax prices in the EU, and it was the VRT and VAT that pumped up the price so much. I also remember seeing tonnes off ZZ plates being issued to UK residents.

I lived in the UK in the nineties and checked the price of a new Polo 16v here (Dublin) with a view to buying it here and exporting it to the UK, and just paying the 17.5% UK VAT.

It turned out that 50.1%(!) of the Irish price was VAT, VRT and other things that I wouldn't have had to pay. And the reason that I didn't do it was that, due to VRT, the spec was appalling, and even if I chose every extra available in Irl, it would still be inferior to the standard UK version. :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Yes its VRT thats killing them, if it wasnt around they would be in a position to sell more affordable cars to us and would also be able to export cars to the UK at prices comparable to there.

Whilst VRT has bumped up the prices, its not the reason that cars aren't selling! We're in an economic downturn and to take on a loan for a car would be relatively foolish. The fact that the downturn started in or around when the new VRT rates kicked in didn't help the dealers who were already struggling because many people decided to wait until July.

miju

Hellrazer wrote: »

Airside in Swords are in bad financial trouble according to the motor trade rumour mill.

One of my friends is a mechanic out there for one of the dealers (guess which one ) and they are apparently in very serious trouble.

This country has simply gotten too expensive and this is why it's gone to ****e. It's not just cars everything is cheaper outside of Ireland. In the last year I've bought about 3k worth of goods from the UK and saved about 1k compared to buying here. We're going up north to do the crimbo shopping too (and even with the cost of a weekends hotel) we'll prob still save a packet.

I'm sure the VAT man loves me

CrowdedHouse

kbannon wrote: »

The fact that the downturn started in or around when the new VRT rates kicked in didn't help the dealers who were already struggling because many people decided to wait until July.

+1
Think you're right there OK,and then July was too late so people decided to hold out 'til January next...and now the downturn is in big time..

Tipsy Mac

Problem come January is the dealers used car flow has stopped so he can't give a reasonable trade in when someone is buying a new car so that in turn will make the person looking to buy new hold off further changing their car.

dmca77

Reading all the comments it's quiet clear that nobody knows how the motor trade works!!!!!

Tony Broke

dmca77 wrote: »

Reading all the comments it's quiet clear that nobody knows how the motor trade works!!!!!

How does it work

dmca77

I have read COMENTS about dealers driving around carparks and taking reg numbers for warranty and claiming.
When a dealer gets an warranty audit and dealer audit they have to keep all parts replaced for 90 days and paperwork for 5 years for inspection.
The auditiors come in and check very part.
The part has a stamp date which will reconise to the vehicle that it was removed from.
If all is okay then the factary will pass the claim or deny if the jobcard is not writtten correctly.
No fraud claims anymore,
ps...
I HATE TAXI DRIVERS

Darragh29

dmca77 wrote: »

I have read COMENTS about dealers driving around carparks and taking reg numbers for warranty and claiming.
When a dealer gets an warranty audit and dealer audit they have to keep all parts replaced for 90 days and paperwork for 5 years for inspection.
The auditiors come in and check very part.
The part has a stamp date which will reconise to the vehicle that it was removed from.
If all is okay then the factary will pass the claim or deny if the jobcard is not writtten correctly.
No fraud claims anymore,
ps...
I HATE TAXI DRIVERS

Come back when you understand what you are talking about. There isn't a word greater than 6 letters in the above post that you have spelt correctly...

dmca77 wrote: »

factary

reconise

auditiors

COMENTS

jimmycrackcorm

dmca77 wrote: »

Reading all the comments it's quiet clear that nobody knows how the motor trade works!!!!!

It's quite clear you can't spell so your post doesn't have any effect! Plus, add four extra exclamation marks for perceived emphasis.

digitaldr

Firefox now has a built in spellchecker:).

Seth Brundle

Lads, remember that this isn't the English forum!

Slidey

Well I was gonna do a big multi quote post but have changed my mind.

As a mechanic who has worked in a main dealers for quite some time I feel seriously pissed off with the state of the motor trade in Ireland.

SIMI are a shower of bastards. Jobs for the boyos and group hugs all round. The dealer I work in is part of the SIMI and was challenged on the mechanics rates recommened by SIMI, he said he couldnt afford to pay them..

I heard on the radio some pleb from the SIMI complaining about people selling cars on the side of the road and how they couldnt compete.

So fcuking what.. anyone who buys a car off the side of the road does so knowing (or should know) that the warranty is a mile or a minute, whichever comes first.

Personally I will never buy a car off a dealer, I couldnt care less about the plate glass facade, free coffee and suit wearing Dick Turpin that 'helps' me.
When you buy your car at inflated prices, this is what you are paying for.

As for the point on warranty claims, yes they do audit, but that is not going to stop a fiddle. So long as you are cute in the way you go about it most of the claims will get through, this from what I have seen is normally to the benefit of a valued customer where I work.

On apprentices, having been there and done that, it just isn't right to pay full whack for an apprentice to be working on your car.

When I started my trade I had already been under me old lads grubby tuition since I was old enough to walk so had a distinct advantage, but I have seen lads coming in and not having a clue. 2 weeks later they are doing an oil change on there own.

I have witnessed collasal fcuk ups because of this. Four hours labour will normally pay a first year apr wages for the week.. how can this be justified?

BAH, I'll stop now.
Sorry for the rant and long post

keefg

miju wrote: »

This country has simply gotten too expensive and this is why it's gone to ****e. It's not just cars everything is cheaper outside of Ireland. In the last year I've bought about 3k worth of goods from the UK and saved about 1k compared to buying here. We're going up north to do the crimbo shopping too (and even with the cost of a weekends hotel) we'll prob still save a packet.

I'm sure the VAT man loves me

I agree with you on the "Rip Of Ireland" sentiments but Mr. Lenihan has already stated that as long as we continue to buy goods from outside the state then the gov will continue to increase VAT, income tax and any other tax they need to recover the lost revenue.

http://www.rte.ie/money/budget2009/stories/2008/1015/budgetlenihan.html

So while we might save a few quid buying cars, booze, washing machines or whatever in the north or uk make no mistake...the gov will get that money back from us one way or another. If you don't pay the higher prices in Irish shops then they will just take it directly out of our pockets via various taxes :mad:

It's a nightmare situation that isn't going to get better anytime soon.

miju

well Lenihan can keeping hiking the taxes all he wants it will just mean more and more people will shop outside the state and he'll quickly see where that will get him.

ei9go

Phoned a couple of weeks ago to enquire about this car.

http://www.carzone.ie/es-ie/search/Toyota/Rav4/2.0-VVT-/200840190290057/advert

Price was then 34975 Euro

Then one Saturday morning the dealership phoned me ( must have saved my number from the caller display) and asked would I like to come and look at the car.

So, I did go and look and he wanted silly money off me.
Told him , I buy a top spec one in the Uk for 10,000 less.

The following week, they dropped the price of the car to 29975 Euro.

Nice sales technique

I'm not going to mention any names. But there are lots of rumors about a large garage chain that aggressively expanded in the last few years may be going to the wall.

fastrac

With all its faults Carzone and its likes really opened peoples eyes on prices.The SIMI and co did to the public what the auctioneers did with houses. Lots of negative equity on the roads of Ireland in the last few months.

fastrac

fastrac wrote: »

With all its faults Carzone and its likes really opened peoples eyes on prices.The SIMI and co did to the public what the auctioneers did with houses. Lots of negative equity on the roads of Ireland in the last few months.

Since when are vehicles an asset that gains value.