The Boot Room: BAC Coaches & coaching chat thread

--amadeus--

A lot of us have been bouncing coaching conversations around in various places and I thought it might be a good idea to have a central place we can all discuss this stuff.

So, what's the idea of this thread? Well I thought that it could be a place for:

• Coaches to discuss potential plans, training session, targets, etc. Keep it all central and public
• Aspiring coaches to come in and register an interest
• Members, non-members, experienced and non to question the coaching. Not in a general way but if we schedule (for example) a 6*1600m 60 sec recovery for a group of newbies on a marathon get you round schedule this is the place people could come to and say "are you mad??!!"
• For people to make coaching requests - either individual or group race plans
• Any other stuf that comes up that is associated with the coaching side of the club - for example coaching courses

So it's not designed to replace the main board (so "help I'm new, reccomend me a program" questions would still get a thread of thier own), it's really just the coaches info clearing house.

(and I know athletes don't wear boots but if it worked for LFC then it'll work for us!)

Peckham

--amadeus-- wrote: »

if we schedule (for example) a 6*1600m 60 sec recovery for a group of newbies on a marathon get you round schedule this is the place people could come to and say "are you mad??!!"

Yes, was thinking that's going a bit too easy!

MCOS

Peckham wrote: »

Yes, was thinking that's going a bit too easy!

You would! Seeing as you have the fastest out loud time goal for Dublin!

Woddle

Good idea amadeus, what about a sub forum for all boards ac related stuff, I feel we, I have over loaded the marathon/triathlon forum
Vexorg said he would sort this out for us if we want.

cfitz

Once your club is set up there probably won't be as many new threads, meaning no real problem. It's not like it's a very busy forum anyway.

robinph

Probably better to stay where there are more "eyes" for now. Becoming a subforum could reduce the number of people passing through to see what a wonderful club we are and the fantastic coaching advice.

--amadeus--

robinph wrote: »

and the fantastic coaching advice.

Was that sarcasm?

Drop and give me 50, punk!!

(oooohhh the power!!! I could get used to this!!)

--amadeus--

Right then, 10 mins before class starts to put some of my initial ideas down...

HM has already got the ball rolling on the personalised plans, which is a cracking idea. A couple of brave souls who follow advice and who will hopefully see progress that we can all follow is great.

I would like to also see three "bands" of training posted up here. One for the quicker runners, one for the mid packers and one for novices or those planning mainly to finish. I'd like an agreement on a target race (eg a Christmas 10k / spring marathon) and a week by week plan for each level placed out and clearly explained with the intention of peaking at the nominated race.

I'd also like - as HM suggested - a generic "weekly workout", for those who just want to get out and run but are either in between races or don't race. Something fairly light but potentially challenging to introduce and again explain different workouts (eg strides, fartlek, intervals for speed work but also the rational behind longer sub race pace runs, etc). This could even include cross training suggestions, nutrition advice and the like.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Woddle

Hi amadeus I have a 6 week 5k schedule which I planned to start the week after DM, I made it myself with alot of reference to Daniels running formula, I've tonnes of running books and just added Lore of running to my collection, It's feckin huge. Anyway that schedule is developed to get me in peak sub 20 min for the jingle bell 5 k, feel free to play with and tell me what you think
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055277626&page=18
I would imagine there will be quite a few of us doing this, as a test of our new marathon fitness

T runner

Hi Woddle, just analysing the schedule there: heres my take.

Everyone is different and I prefer to do a small amount of sessions on top of strenght.
If I was after the marathon hopefully there would be strenght left in the legs but for me 3 sessions a week would be too much.
I would do 2 R sessions (concentrating on satying relaxed at all times) in week one to get a bit of form and prelim speed for the later sessions.
Then an I and a T session every week. (maybe tues and sat). On thursdays I might do 6 by 100 R after an easy run for form and speed but nothing strenuous.
Week 4 and 5 T session would be a continuous run to get use to the constant effort required in racing. Week 5's T session on tuesday with strides on thursday and the time trial as planned for saturday. I wouldnt sprint at end of the time trial (save for race) but keep a constant pace.
I would ease the I session on the tuesday of the last week to say 4 or 5 by 1000 with 90 secs rec (dont kill yourself here) and leave it at that (bar a few strides on thursday if you want) till the race. In all the sessions Id emphasise relaxed running, staying tall and keeping a high cadence.

Anyway, thats what id do but you may react better to the 3 sessions per week and your schedule does look really good if it suits you.

--amadeus--

The "Lore" is brilliant - once you've read that you know all the answers!

TBH a 5k plan is well beyond my area of expertise so I'll stick to general points:

- That looks like a really good, demanding plan. Are you really going to be mentally able for something so intense so soon after Dublin?

- You are stringing a lot of tough workouts consectuvley in a row. For example The Sat of the week of the 24th you have intervals of various intensities, followed on the Sunday by an 8 miler followed on teh Monday by a killer pyramid session. I know 8 isn't long by marathon standards but in the context of a 5k it is so that's 3 hard days in a row. You may struggle to give your best and increase your chance of injury

- Have you included cross training on your rest days? Martial arts is good for explosive power and strength, or cycling / swimming, bastketball. Anything with short burts of intense activity would be good.

- Prime indicators of good 5k performance are - as far as I understand it - VO2 max and lactate threashold - factors like running ecomomy simply don't enter the equation at such short distances. I like your emphasis on intense sessions as they will boost your VO2 max but I would do a LT run every week.

- 6 weeks isn't much time to see major improvments - I know time is a factor but it takes 2 weeks for physiological enhancments to kick in. On that basis you'll really only have 4 weeks of improvment before the race. Even at the intensity you are looking at that may not be enough to trigger huge improvments

- How realsitic is this plan? Be brutally honest with yourself - marathon training is a doddle compared to this because the bulk of marathon training is time intensive but low intensity. With this plan the majority of your sessions will be killers. I know it's a short time frame but will you be able to stick this and make every session? I don't know your full running background but will your body be able to take that amount of intensive work without injury, especially in failry short order after a marathon?

- I'd like to see a few short runs at race pace as well, to give you a feel for it

Like I said this really isn't my core area (5k is just a warm up ) so listen to others before you listen to me!

Woddle

It's probably not alot of time(6 weeks) but I believe I can do it, and I need goals whether short term(5K) or long term(Paris & Berlin09) to keep my focus.
Yourself and Trunner make excellent points and I will def make changes.
The cross country on Sat gone, my first mile was 6:19 so if I can carry that on for the next 2 and a bit I'm sorted but it will be tough as the following 2 miles of the xcountry was 6:50 & 7:10 :eek:
And on a different note congrats on your moderator status, look forward to a good reign

--amadeus--

I have only raced 5k once, on St Stephens Day in Donegal, and I had pretty much done nothing since the Berlin marathon in the Sept. I missed sub 20 by a matter of seconds and I can honestly say that the whole thing was a surprisingly painful experience...

I'd like to start planning for the Spring BAC marathon - does anyone have any suggestions? Rotterdam and Edinburgh spring to mind as good and fast. My preference would be Edinburgh, anyone have any thoughts? Once we have arace we have a target date and we can start getting tickover & base training plans in place.

(and thanks for the congrats, am having to work hard to keep my evil power tripping dictator alter ego in check!)

Woddle

I'll be heading to Paris myself, you never know we could have 2 or 3 teams, 1 for Edinbourgh and another for London and then Paris all are on similar dates so training will nearly be in sync

Running Bing

Woddle wrote: »

I'll be heading to Paris myself, you never know we could have 2 or 3 teams, 1 for Edinbourgh and another for London and then Paris all are on similar dates so training will nearly be in sync

Im hoping to do Paris myself and I think a few others are so there should be a few going.



Im planning to do the Aware 10k and the Jingle Bells 5k but given the fact that Dublin is my first race Im finding it difficult to come up with a way to balance the recovery and gentle easing back in whilst also being in good shape for the races.


I know its far from ideal and I wont be in peak condition so naturally goals will have to be adjusted accordingly but I really want to do both races just for the experience of racing the distance and to get a couple of PR's on the cards.



I was thinking of following this plan:

http://www.halhigdon.com/postmarathon/postint.html

That would leave the 6k as the race

and then the following week doing:

3, 5, hill*, 3, rest, rest, race


*Nothing mental here but would it be worth my while doing this? would there be any advantage?

What are peoples thoughts on this? any idea's on better ways I could recover/prepare?

shels4ever

I've been on a schedule for the last 3 week. The plan is to run sub 37 for a 5 mile. But actually thinking of going a bit harder and maybe sub 35 but will make the call in january.

I have made up myself. Its based on 3 hard weeks and one easy week. Then plan is to keep on this for 16 week. So will finish at the end of january.

Plan is to run a good 5 mile ie Raheny or Sports world.

Hard week
DAY 1 Tempo run 5- 6 miles 2 X 15 mins at tempo.
DAY 2 Easy run 5 miles
DAY 3 rest
DAY 4 Intervals 4 X 800 m 1 mile warm up , 1 mile warm down
DAY 5 recovery run 3-4 miles
DAY 6 rest
DAY 7 Long run 9 miles
Total 27-28 miles to increase by 5-10% per week


Easy week
DAY 1 Tempo run 4-5 miles
DAY 2 Easy 4 mile run
DAY 3 rest
DAY 4 4 mile run 6 X 100 m up hill not pushing working on strides
DAY 5 Easy 4 miles
DAY 6 rest
DAY 7 5-6 miles
Total 20 miles

I'll be adding an extra 800m rep ever 3 week and build up to 6-8 by the end of the program. Also hope to increase the total miles on a hard week to 40 + by week 8 .

Any suggestions are welcome

tunney

Running a sub 35 five miler doesn't, IMHO, require that much speed work. Personally I would question the benefits of 800m repeats for the stated goal. I would make my long run longer, and my "easy" run longer too.

--amadeus--

tunney wrote: »

Running a sub 35 five miler doesn't, IMHO, require that much speed work.

Depends where you are starting from - if you are running 8 min miles the only way to go sub 35 is speed work. Agree on the other points though.

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Depends where you are starting from - if you are running 8 min miles the only way to go sub 35 is speed work. Agree on the other points though.

I disagree - I would be of the opinion that the limiting factors for shels4ever is a lack of aerobic fitness and, sorry shels4ever, weight.

Looking at his profile he has run his target time before (5mile 31:30 1994) however I am guessing that at this time he was a tad bit lighter.

Looking at http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/weighteffect.php

A 4kg reduction in weight would bring about a 1:30 or so reduction in a 5 mile time (assuming 40 minutes being the present race time for a 5 mile at 93kg). Interestingly enough the time increases become more significant the lighter the person.

I'd ditch the 800s, do a medium distance run instead and hit the gym twice a week to add lean muscle mass to aid with body fat reduction.

(Apologies if it is inappropriate to comment on weight however for pure running its a huge factor)

ss43

--amadeus-- wrote: »

- Have you included cross training on your rest days? Martial arts is good for explosive power and strength, or cycling / swimming, bastketball. Anything with short burts of intense activity would be good.

The hard days look pretty intense so would it not be better to keep rest days easy. I'd be more inclined to suggest easy jogging. He could add some strides or core work if he was so inclined.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

- Prime indicators of good 5k performance are - as far as I understand it - VO2 max and lactate threashold - factors like running ecomomy simply don't enter the equation at such short distances. I like your emphasis on intense sessions as they will boost your VO2 max but I would do a LT run every week.

Isn't training at Vo2 max pace designed specifically to improve running economy. Vo2 max doesn't really change among trained athletes. It improves when someone starts training but levels out over time. The improvement then is in the pace someone runs while running at that intensity of effort. Eg. say with training, a runner has a Vo2 max of 70 mililitres and he runs at a pace of 3 minute kilometres. More training will not (significantly) increase the Vo2 max value of 70 mililitres. It will however, increase the pace at which he can run while taking in that amount of oxygen. Let's say he now runs at 2:50 km pace at his Vo2 max. His Vo2 max has not improved put the his ability to run at that intensity has improved. For the same effort, he is now running faster, which means he has improved his economy. It's for this reason that among athletes of similar Vo2 max values, Vo2 max is not a great predictor of success but rather pace at Vo2 max (vVo2max) or Lactate Threshold. That's how I see it anyway. I'm open to correction.

shels4ever

Starting point was 49 mins for 5 miles last march.. not I'd say i'm about just about about sub 40. First 10 mins were easy enough to take off but the next 5 might prove to be harded.. But I have a pb of 31 (more then 10 years ago) So I think I have a chance.

shels4ever

tunney wrote: »

I disagree - I would be of the opinion that the limiting factors for shels4ever is a lack of aerobic fitness and, sorry shels4ever, weight.

Looking at his profile he has run his target time before (5mile 31:30 1994) however I am guessing that at this time he was a tad bit lighter.

Looking at http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/weighteffect.php

A 4kg reduction in weight would bring about a 1:30 or so reduction in a 5 mile time (assuming 40 minutes being the present race time for a 5 mile at 93kg). Interestingly enough the time increases become more significant the lighter the person.

I'd ditch the 800s, do a medium distance run instead and hit the gym twice a week to add lean muscle mass to aid with body fat reduction.

(Apologies if it is inappropriate to comment on weight however for pure running its a huge factor)

Comment away its true . I've dropped about 1.5 stone already this year and have the same again to go .
aerobic fitness is an area that i'm working on , and I have targeted a slightly higher weekly mileage then I would have before.
I'm using this a a base face and will focus on pure speed in jan/feb.

I have 2 planned gym days a week now. Well one is at home and one the gym.

--amadeus--

Good points ss43...

First up I always think that cross training is a good idea (active rest is always better than just rest) but I agree that the intensity of teh cross training needs to be in line with the hard days. If the hard days stay as hard as suggested then the rest days should either be proper, full, rest or something very different (swimming or weights maybe). If the intensity of the weeks drops then cross training could be ratcheted up accordingly.

On VO2 max thats a thorny question...

You are bang on - VO2 max won't improve in a trained athlete. But I don't think Woodle is at that level yet. Based on some stuff I have read, for example:

Studies show that sedentary people can improve VO2 max by over twenty percent when they begin a running program of 25 miles per week. By increasing mileage to 50 miles per week, VO2 max is improved a further ten percent. Unfortunately there are diminishing returns of VO2 max increases with increased mileage, so drastic improvements will not occur indefinitely. Based on the available research, it seems that maximal VO2 max gains are achieved with a weekly running volume of 60 to 90 miles.

Link

I will hold my hands up and admit I was shoddy in my terminology . True running economy is - as you say - related to O2 consumption. What I meant was running efficiency, the amount of energy needed to cover x distance in y time. In the marathon this is a better predictor of performance than VO2 max (according to P&D) but obviously has no bearing on a 5k.

Apart from that I think we bradly agree - working on improving his VO2 max and LT will lead to stronger performances at shorter distances, yes?

ss43

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Good points ss43...

First up I always think that cross training is a good idea (active rest is always better than just rest) but I agree that the intensity of teh cross training needs to be in line with the hard days. If the hard days stay as hard as suggested then the rest days should either be proper, full, rest or something very different (swimming or weights maybe). If the intensity of the weeks drops then cross training could be ratcheted up accordingly.

On VO2 max thats a thorny question...

You are bang on - VO2 max won't improve in a trained athlete. But I don't think Woodle is at that level yet. Based on some stuff I have read, for example:

Link

I will hold my hands up and admit I was shoddy in my terminology . True running economy is - as you say - related to O2 consumption. What I meant was running efficiency, the amount of energy needed to cover x distance in y time. In the marathon this is a better predictor of performance than VO2 max (according to P&D) but obviously has no bearing on a 5k.

Apart from that I think we bradly agree - working on improving his VO2 max and LT will lead to stronger performances at shorter distances, yes?

I'd agree about active rest being better (generally) than full rest but I'd wouldn't be particularly keen on cross training. An easy run aids recovery and is more beneficial to a runner than a swim or cycle in my opinion. I wouldn't recommend it as a form of training for anyone training only once a day (unless they were injured or particularly prone to repetitive stress related injuries).

Working on Vo2 and LT should lead to improvements at 5k.

Woddle

--amadeus-- wrote: »

You are bang on - VO2 max won't improve in a trained athlete. But I don't think Woodle is at that level yet.

Finally a coach who believes in me

T runner

Hi Shels

I like your schedule.
It looks good for cross country. Dont think youd need to change it, I have a few tweaks below just.
Not surprised the weight is coming down, so no need to chnage anything there either I reckon.
I might suggest the following tweaks.
If you can maybe swap the tempo run on day 1 with the long run on day 7.
Its more important to be fresh for the tempo than the long run. (the fresher you are for the quality days the better)
If your recovery is longer than 2 mins for the 800's id bring it down to 2min or 90 secs. With this interval youll have to run them more aerobically to complete them evenly. When youre used to them and your mileage increases, then increase the distance to 1ks perhaps, and then add a rep/s.
If youll be doing a few cross countries then id recommend making all the tempos continuous as in the easy week. I usually start with 17 mins hard and add 3 mins per week till up to high twenties.
All the best

--amadeus--

In an effort to avoid taper madness I'm thinking about post Dublin stuff. After the euphoria wears off a lot of people will drift off again and it would be nice to have something to roll out pretty quickly. There are normally a load of 10ks around Xmas (Jingle Bells 10k gets a lot of mentions) so I think we should pop up a couple of plans geared towards those who have done an autumn mara and now want to maintain some momentum and futness before peaking again in Spring.

I'm thinking two plans; one for 45 mins and over, one for 44:59 and below. These are arbitrary numbers plucked out of thin air so feel free to suggest alternatives (maybe 60mins+ / 40 - 60 / 40 and below but I would prefer just 2 plans from an admin perspective).

So you're all smart folks what ideas do you have for the plans? Any suggestions for good sessions? Any good plans we can leverage off? All and any input welcome!

Woddle

It's a good idea, theres aware 10k on 6th of December and jingle bell 5k on Dec 14th, I'll be running both with priority going to the 5k

Running Bing

--amadeus-- wrote: »

In an effort to avoid taper madness I'm thinking about post Dublin stuff. After the euphoria wears off a lot of people will drift off again and it would be nice to have something to roll out pretty quickly. There are normally a load of 10ks around Xmas (Jingle Bells 10k gets a lot of mentions) so I think we should pop up a couple of plans geared towards those who have done an autumn mara and now want to maintain some momentum and futness before peaking again in Spring.

I'm thinking two plans; one for 45 mins and over, one for 44:59 and below. These are arbitrary numbers plucked out of thin air so feel free to suggest alternatives (maybe 60mins+ / 40 - 60 / 40 and below but I would prefer just 2 plans from an admin perspective).

So you're all smart folks what ideas do you have for the plans? Any suggestions for good sessions? Any good plans we can leverage off? All and any input welcome!

Thanks Amadeus.


as I posted I was just going to follow the Hal higdon post marathon plan (http://www.halhigdon.com/postmarathon/postint.html) but any amendments, recommendations or advice would be much appreciated.

Id definitely be 45+

Racing Flat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm thinking about post Dublin stuff.

Just don't forget to take some time off then have a few easy weeks before getting back to hard training or racing. The 2 times I did Dublin, I ran a PB at the Jingle Bells race 5 or 6 weeks later, following 1-2 weeks of complete rest, 2 weeks of very easy jogging and then 2 weeks of gentle reintroduction to speed work. The base will be there and will set you up for a good time. Go at it hammer and tongs too soon and you might run well in December but you'll be flat as a pancake come January.

26 days before the first hard session or so they say....

Krusty_Clown

Like Babybing, my plan is to follow the HH post marathon recovery program for a week or two (worked fine after Longford), and then switch to a 20 day 10k training program, for the aware 10k on the 6th of December. I'm not too sure if this is too agressive, but my recovery from Longford was pretty swift.

I was thinking of trying one of these programs:
http://www.time-to-run.com/training/10k/ (sub 45 or sub 40) and aiming for a time of around 42 mins. My previous 10k in Donadea a few weeks ago was 43:13, so I figure, some 10k specific training might give me an extra minute or so. I do want to avoid injury though, as I'd like to start training for Edinburgh Marathon in January/February (race end of May).

--amadeus--

Excellent, I'm sure we can pull something together in the week or so after Dublin and - as RF - says maybe do a couple of gentle weeks, a couple of "remind you what speed is" weeks and then the Aware run.

I'll drop it into Google docs and invite some of teh more experienced / faster lads to preview / discuss before we unleash it on the masses

shels4ever

T runner wrote: »

Hi Shels

I like your schedule.
It looks good for cross country. Dont think youd need to change it, I have a few tweaks below just.
Not surprised the weight is coming down, so no need to chnage anything there either I reckon.
I might suggest the following tweaks.
If you can maybe swap the tempo run on day 1 with the long run on day 7.
Its more important to be fresh for the tempo than the long run. (the fresher you are for the quality days the better)
If your recovery is longer than 2 mins for the 800's id bring it down to 2min or 90 secs. With this interval youll have to run them more aerobically to complete them evenly. When youre used to them and your mileage increases, then increase the distance to 1ks perhaps, and then add a rep/s.
If youll be doing a few cross countries then id recommend making all the tempos continuous as in the easy week. I usually start with 17 mins hard and add 3 mins per week till up to high twenties.
All the best

Thanks I'll make that change starting next week. On the reps I think i'll drop the recovery by 30 sec's next week and see how I get on .

Thanks for the suggestions.

--amadeus--

Ok folks, first cut at a BAC 10k plan (based on the HH novice 10k, here).

This is aimed at those coming from Dublin and planning on running 45mins+. Emphasis is very much on gentle recovery runs; I am trying to strike a balance between working hard enough to maintain marathon fitness but not so hard as to risk an injury on still stressed legs - the Aware 10k is coming up fairly quickly so there isn't much training time at all. My theory is that the solid aerobic base from marathon training will see people through the race so all I am aiming for is tick over.

I would greatly appreciate all inputbut please bear some things in mind:

- it is aimed at slower / lower volume runners, hence the lack of high intensity. I don't think that runs greater than race distance or high intensity reps would be of huge benifit for most at this level

- it is post marathon training so again I am discouraging high intensity work because of injury risk and I am assuming that folk have a good aerobic base anyway

A tougher plan for those aiming sub 45 will follow, but thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Thanks

christeb

I think I will have a bash at the Jingle Bells 5k on the 14th Dec, would do the Aware (have done it the prev 2 years) but Christmas party getting in the way. I am fundamentally weak!!!

A sub 20 min plan would be great, I ran 4.32k in 18:10 last night as a "warm up" to football training, so I wouldn't be too far off...

Guisseppeth

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Ok folks, first cut at a BAC 10k plan (based on the HH novice 10k, here).

This is aimed at those coming from Dublin and planning on running 45mins+. Emphasis is very much on gentle recovery runs; I am trying to strike a balance between working hard enough to maintain marathon fitness but not so hard as to risk an injury on still stressed legs - the Aware 10k is coming up fairly quickly so there isn't much training time at all. My theory is that the solid aerobic base from marathon training will see people through the race so all I am aiming for is tick over.

I would greatly appreciate all inputbut please bear some things in mind:

- it is aimed at slower / lower volume runners, hence the lack of high intensity. I don't think that runs greater than race distance or high intensity reps would be of huge benifit for most at this level

- it is post marathon training so again I am discouraging high intensity work because of injury risk and I am assuming that folk have a good aerobic base anyway

A tougher plan for those aiming sub 45 will follow, but thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Thanks

Do you have to do anything special to be able to see the plan?? Telling me I don't have access....

--amadeus--

Apologies I forgot to share it

Everyone should now be able to view the doc, let me know if you can't...

ss43

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Ok folks, first cut at a BAC 10k plan (based on the HH novice 10k, here).

This is aimed at those coming from Dublin and planning on running 45mins+. Emphasis is very much on gentle recovery runs; I am trying to strike a balance between working hard enough to maintain marathon fitness but not so hard as to risk an injury on still stressed legs - the Aware 10k is coming up fairly quickly so there isn't much training time at all. My theory is that the solid aerobic base from marathon training will see people through the race so all I am aiming for is tick over.

I would greatly appreciate all inputbut please bear some things in mind:

- it is aimed at slower / lower volume runners, hence the lack of high intensity. I don't think that runs greater than race distance or high intensity reps would be of huge benifit for most at this level

- it is post marathon training so again I am discouraging high intensity work because of injury risk and I am assuming that folk have a good aerobic base anyway

A tougher plan for those aiming sub 45 will follow, but thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Thanks

I'll qualify this by saying I don't have much experience of the situation i.e. training only 3-5 times per week and coming off a marathon so maybe what I suggest won't work but could be worth considering.

I'd recommend doing strides after most if not all of the easy runs. Do 4-10 by 60-100m fast but relaxed. It gets the legs moving which means they'll be better able for the faster training. It'd probably help your efficiency of movement. It's also nice to get the feeling of moving fast. As they're short they don't take much out of you, you'd stop if you started feeling under pressure. I'd usually feel better after doing them than before.

thirtyfoot

ss43 wrote: »

I'd recommend doing strides after most if not all of the easy runs. Do 4-10 by 60-100m fast but relaxed. .

ss43 wrote: »

efficiency of movement. .

Thats interesting. I've used a session like this (or a longer version of it) as a recovery run. It might be 20-30 x 100m with 20-30secs between runs. The pace would be very comfortable yet faster than an easy run. The idea is that you are getting the body running at speeds and HR intensities that aid recovery yet you are doing the run with really good form/technique/efficiency and at a pace that doesn't bring the negative impacts of doing a slow run(I'd be thinking of this geared towards shorter distanced athletes). I've found its a good recovery session or even shake-out in the days before a race.

ss43

Tingle wrote: »

Thats interesting. I've used a session like this (or a longer version of it) as a recovery run. It might be 20-30 x 100m with 20-30secs between runs. The pace would be very comfortable yet faster than an easy run. The idea is that you are getting the body running at speeds and HR intensities that aid recovery yet you are doing the run with really good form/technique/efficiency and at a pace that doesn't bring the negative impacts of doing a slow run(I'd be thinking of this geared towards shorter distanced athletes). I've found its a good recovery session or even shake-out in the days before a race.

I've never tried them as a recovery method but I generally feel better after doing them. I'd usually do them after a recovery or a steady run. The pace I'd be aiming for would be close to max pace but because it's short it's pretty comfortable. I've never done that many so don't know how well it'd work for me. I've heard it suggested as neuromuscular training alright but nevera s recovery (until now). The impact of running 3000m at a fast pace might be a bit much for some people's recovery if they're already a bit fragile after atough session the previous evening.

Krusty_Clown

Hi Amadeus, great work. I'm looking forward to the sub-45 plan (hoping to go sub 42). Do you think it would be possible to include some guidelines, in terms of pace or heart rate percentage? The Time-to-run site lists suggested paces for specific time goals, which could be useful.

Also, some HR guidance would be handy for those who train with a HRM. e.g.: Sunday runs should be performed at less intensity than race pace - 70% VO2max or 80% maximum heart rate. Another example Table 8.2 here. I'm not suggesting the actual percentages, just the style.

I know, I'm asking plenty, but also volunteer to help doing the research (web-crawling!).

thirtyfoot

ss43 wrote: »

. The impact of running 3000m at a fast pace might be a bit much for some people's recovery if they're already a bit fragile after atough session the previous evening.

Just to clarify it wouldn't be a fast 3000m, it would be at a comfortable and a little faster than an easy run. Very much a recovery run on grass, it works and I've done it after very intense track sessions doubled with weights the day before.

--amadeus--

Great feedback folks, appreciated.

There is now a first cut at a sub 45 plan in the same place (2 tabs now). I'd especially like feedback on the intensity, is it about right, too high or too low for this level? Again please bear in mind that this is post marathon.

KC - great ideas on the HR side. I've read all the info on HR training but haven't done it myself so would hesitate to put myself up as an expert. Perhaps Tingle could advise?

shels4ever

Nice programs there, I would follow a 45+ program in a few months time. At the moment i'm doing more or a base phase to build up my fittness but all going well i'll change over in 8-10 weeks.

cfitz

Regarding the sub 45 min plan:

On Week 4 you have a 4 mile run at 10k Race pace and then just 2 days later you have 8 x 800m at 5k race pace with just 200m recovery.

These are both very difficult sessions and I don't think I'd put the two of them in the same week in the context of this training program. Certainly not within 2 days of each other.

To me, them 3 and 4 mile race pace runs look very tough. Maybe I'm just afraid of the hard work

I'd give them at least one day off every week also.

thirtyfoot

--amadeus-- wrote: »

KC - great ideas on the HR side. I've read all the info on HR training but haven't done it myself so would hesitate to put myself up as an expert. Perhaps Tingle could advise?

Wouldn't be too au fait with HR training - I'd be from the old school of "easy, steady, hard" I'm afraid.

--amadeus--

cfitz wrote: »

Regarding the sub 45 min plan:

On Week 3 you have a 4 mile run at 10k Race pace and then just 2 days later you have 8 x 800m at 5k race pace with just 200m recovery.

These are both very difficult sessions and I don't think I'd put the two of them in the same week in the context of this training program. Certainly not within 2 days of each other.

To me, them 3 and 4 mile race pace runs look very tough. Maybe I'm just afraid of the hard work

I'd give them at least one day off every week also.

That's kind of what I'm worried about tbh. I am coming from a P&D plan that would have had quite a high intensity to it and I'm not sure I am expecting too much from people, especialy in the weeks after the marathon.

That said my reasons / justifications are:

- All hard days are followed by an easy day so both those tough sessions are follwed by easy run days to allow for recovery

- We are talking about people looking to come in under 45 mins or better, which would put you easily into the top 25% of the field. If you want to improve and run fast then you need to work hard! 3 and 4 mile race pace runs are broadly in proportion to the 12 & 15 mile race pace runs you do in prep for a marathon and I find them to be far and away the most useful sessions in the plan.

- In the notes at the bottom I do say to take additional rest says if required

What do the rest of you think? Is it to intensive for teh level of runner it's aimed at? Should I drop to one speed session per week?

[edit] That week 4 does look very tough actually and I'm not sure it's far enough out from race day to actually justify the intensity. Maybe I should substitute a slower mid length run for one of interval sessions? Comments welcome

Also this is partially sourced from here

cfitz

--amadeus-- wrote: »

[edit] That week 4 does look very tough actually

Sorry, yes Week 4 is what I was referring to. I'll edit my post now.

Krusty_Clown

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Great feedback folks, appreciated.

There is now a first cut at a sub 45 plan in the same place (2 tabs now). I'd especially like feedback on the intensity, is it about right, too high or too low for this level? Again please bear in mind that this is post marathon.

KC - great ideas on the HR side. I've read all the info on HR training but haven't done it myself so would hesitate to put myself up as an expert. Perhaps Tingle could advise?

Looks good Amadeus. Consider me signed up! I'll start a training log, in the next day or two. I don't think the HR stuff is really necessary, as there's enough pace information in the sub-45 plan. For the 5k pace, given that I have never run a 5k race, should I use the McMillan equivalent of my planned 10k pace, or the McMillan equivalent of my most recent 10k race? Difference is about 10 seconds/km.

Also, I had planned an easy 6-8 mile run on Sunday. Probably a good idea to skip this, and rest up for the new training plan which starts on Monday?

If I'm feeling particularly energetic, I'll put together a Forerunner workout for the above training plan.

robinph

Might be an idea to have and idiots guide to some of the terms that get thrown around in here quite often so that n00bs can decode what people are talking about.

Fartlek
HR
PRP
strides
LSR
...

That's just the first few abreviations that came into my head but might not be obvious to everyone passing through as to what is going on.

Edit: Doh, ignore me. Just had another look at your spreadsheets and saw that you actually stuck explanations on the bottom of them already.

ss43

Tingle wrote: »

Just to clarify it wouldn't be a fast 3000m, it would be at a comfortable and a little faster than an easy run. Very much a recovery run on grass, it works and I've done it after very intense track sessions doubled with weights the day before.

That's fair enough. The strides I was talking about would be close to max pace so we're talking about two fairly different types of training.



Regarding HR and pace. Renato Canova (whose opinion I'd value) suggests that HR and relative effort are important in preparatory stages of training but absolute paces are more important for specific training. This programme (which assumes a base has been built and is only six weeks long) would seem to be specific training). He has also said that for aerobic benefits you should run at at least 80% of race pace which he worked out by adding 20% of the time so for a 40 min 10k that'd mean a race pace of 4:00 per k and training paces of 4:48 or faster. I took from that that if running slower than 80% race pace you might as well run really slow and ensure good recovery rather than trying to get as close to it as possible rather than running at 78% and neither recovering nor progressing. I'm not completely sure that was waht he meant though. I know Kenyan athletes do run really slow on their recovery runs and pretty fast on their normal runs. They don't seem to use the same middleground as Irish athletes do.

For week 4 of the sub 45 plan I'd recommend switching the 8x400 on the Monday with the 4 mile PRP on Wednesday. The two toughest sessions are currently on Wednesday and Friday but putting them on Monday and Wednesday would alow more recovery. The 8x400m session is much easier and could probably be successfully completed even if a little sore from a previous session.