Budget2009 & medical cards

NYC353

Ok, the government keep justifying the change to the medical card entitlement by saying that it is unfair to give them to the rich. I would agree in principle with that except Brian Lenihan's definition of rich seems to make no sense.
According to the Irish Times any married elderly couple with an income of more than €298 per week will lose the entitlement. This means a married couple with nothing but the old age pension will not qualify. Surely the FF crowd aren't calling those people rich? Am I misinterpreting something?

NYC353

Another key point is that Lenihan and Cowen keep saying that 70% of over 70's will keep their medical card. It looks like that is complete spin. 70% will get support of some type, not a full medical card. You really need to work through the spin when these guys are on the radio or TV. Why do the interviewers never ask them to clarify key points like that?

There needs to be laws against politicians lying to the public

:mad:

their 10% pay cut is a lie too FFS

irish_bob

im sick and tired of the pandering to the sacred cows that are the elderly and this jaded mantra that they served the state well , you would think they were all at the gpo in 1916 , many of them never paid a happeny in tax in thier life and done feck all for the state , its only due to the fact that the grey vote is so crucial at elections that every politician seems to be distancing themselves from this move , pensioners in this state have it great compared to the uk for example , they have free electricity , get a fuel allowance , free travel , pay no tv licence , free phone and not only that recieve over 200 euro a week on the old age state pension let alone whatever contributory pension they have ammassed , those on thier own get a living alone allowance , i know plenty of pensioners who have gorgeous houses and always drive a new car , yet even theese people dont any longer qualify for a medical card under the new changes will still get 400 a yr , the majority of people around 70 are not in poor health anyways , 70 is not old nowadays , the rest who are not well off will still get all thier usual freebies they have always gotten
its not going to be the over 70,s who will ressurect this country so lets put an end to the myth once and for all that pensioners are not well looked after in this country , most of those phoning in joe duffy to moan are annoyed because they either want to bring the money theyve hoarded with them or else its thier children who dont want to see thier inherritence going on tablets for mammy and daddy , its amasing listening to liveline how people when money is on the line get all up in arms with phoney outrgage dressed up as morality , im sorry but the rest of us cant afford to cough up more tax just so the elderly can continue thier charmed existance , time to slay a few sacred cows

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dresden8

Irish Bob you won't have to slay them, the government is hoping a harsh winter will do the job for them.

Minder

irish_bob wrote: »

im sick and tired of the pandering to the sacred cows that are the elderly and this jaded mantra that they served the state well , you would think they were all at the gpo in 1916 , many of them never paid a happeny in tax in thier life and done feck all for the state , its only due to the fact that the grey vote is so crucial at elections that every politician seems to be distancing themselves from this move , pensioners in this state have it great compared to the uk for example , they have free electricity , get a fuel allowance , free travel , pay no tv licence , free phone and not only that recieve over 200 euro a week on the old age state pension let alone whatever contributory pension they have ammassed , those on thier own get a living alone allowance , i know plenty of pensioners who have gorgeous houses and always drive a new car , yet even theese people dont any longer qualify for a medical card under the new changes will still get 400 a yr , the majority of people around 70 are not in poor health anyways , 70 is not old nowadays , the rest who are not well off will still get all thier usual freebies they have always gotten
its not going to be the over 70,s who will ressurect this country so lets put an end to the myth once and for all that pensioners are not well looked after in this country , most of those phoning in joe duffy to moan are annoyed because they either want to bring the money theyve hoarded with them or else its thier children who dont want to see thier inherritence going on tablets for mammy and daddy , its amasing listening to liveline how people when money is on the line get all up in arms with phoney outrgage dressed up as morality , im sorry but the rest of us cant afford to cough up more tax just so the elderly can continue thier charmed existance , time to slay a few sacred cows

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groundless vitriolic claptrap

NYC353

irish_bob wrote: »

im sick and tired of the pandering to the sacred cows that are the elderly and this jaded mantra that they served the state well

You are entitled to your opinion but if you consider a couple on €299 per week to be "rich" as does our government then you will be having that opinion on your own

NYC353

I just heard Donegal Mary (the Tainiste, I can't remember her second name) defending the move by saying that "nobody would want the taxpayers to fund the medical expenses of "well-off pensioners, to senior civil servants, High Court judges, property tycoons, Ministers of State and hospital consultants."
I agree but my parents who only have the old age pension which by definition is more than €298 per week will also lose theirs. What is she on?

gurramok

My mother who lives in working class Finglas and is mortgage/rent free as my parents worked all their life to pay for the house is on a state pension of €223 a week plus a pension of about 30quid a week from my deceased dad's job.

According to that threshold of €203 net a week, she is too rich to have the medical card. :mad:

Now we hear they've upped it to €240 net a week so she might scrape through.

She voted for FF on the basis of €300 a week pensions and she along with her elderly working class friends are screwed to save a measly €100m in the public finances when the same FF threw €500m at the builders to help them sell their houses. :mad:

luckat

I'm waiting for the furious crowds of white-haired protestors to gather outside the Dáil.

These are people who *vote*. They're people with a lifetime's experience - and cynicism. The opposition party that gets them onside will have one powerful weapon.

irish_bob

Minder wrote: »

groundless vitriolic claptrap

is that the best you can do

Running Bing

gurramok wrote: »

My mother who lives in working class Finglas and is mortgage/rent free as my parents worked all their life to pay for the house is on a state pension of €223 a week plus a pension of about 30quid a week from my deceased dad's job.

According to that threshold of €203 net a week, she is too rich to have the medical card. :mad:

Now we hear they've upped it to €240 net a week so she might scrape through.

She voted for FF on the basis of €300 a week pensions and she along with her elderly working class friends are screwed to save a measly €100m in the public finances when the same FF threw €500m at the builders to help them sell their houses. :mad:

My grandmother is in a similar position...breaks my heart thinking about it tbh.

I echo the sentiments of the OP...I have no problem stopping benefits to the likes of well off retired judges and property tycoons (i.e. those who can afford to pay) but to class people earning such a paltry income as rich is disgusting. Very sad.:(

luckat

Babybing wrote: »

I have no problem stopping benefits to the likes of well off retired judges and property tycoons

There are very, very few of these. And once you start paying for civil servants to means-test people, you're into big money. And the number of people who are alienated - not just the frightened old, but their relatives, friends and friends-of-friends - by this is just not worth it for your party.

Bum note, Jeremiah.

irish_bob

luckat wrote: »

There are very, very few of these. And once you start paying for civil servants to means-test people, you're into big money. And the number of people who are alienated - not just the frightened old, but their relatives, friends and friends-of-friends - by this is just not worth it for your party.

Bum note, Jeremiah.

old people over 70 who live in tallagh are not the average pensioner , thier are thousands of very wealthy 70 plus penioners all over the country who are extremly well off , farmers for example who own over a 100 acres and have thier land rented out , i should know , i grew up on a farm

dresden8

irish_bob wrote: »

old people over 70 who live in tallagh are not the average pensioner , thier are thousands of very wealthy 70 plus penioners all over the country who are extremly well off , farmers for example who own over a 100 acres and have thier land rented out , i should know , i grew up on a farm

Yes, but farmers perpetually have no means.

Hagar

dresden8 wrote: »

Irish Bob you won't have to slay them, the government is hoping a harsh winter will do the job for them.

Totally false, sure haven't the Govt increased the winter fuel allowance, from next April, when the winter is over...

earlyevening

Funding the GMS is expected to rise 14% next year. Over 70s earning less than 30 something K a year will get some sort of benefit. A lot will get a doctor only medical card which will go a long way to meeting their needs. (as 80% of the funding of the over 70s medical card went on basic GP services).

80% of the money the HSE speds on a person is spent prolonging their lives by a few weeks just before they die. What inefficiency! Maybe we can take 12bn of the 15bn Health budget back and spend it on champagne?

luckat

earlyevening wrote: »

80% of the money the HSE speds on a person is spent prolonging their lives by a few weeks just before they die. What inefficiency! Maybe we can take 12bn of the 15bn Health budget back and spend it on champagne?

OK, earlyevening, I'm expecting you to fill out a living will saying your life is not to be prolonged if you appear to be very sick.

earlyevening

luckat wrote: »

OK, earlyevening, I'm expecting you to fill out a living will saying your life is not to be prolonged if you appear to be very sick.

I''d only be doing my "patriotic duty".

The Scruffy One

I have two points to make on this and I sincerely hope there are others that agree.

Firstly, I believe when a person reaches 70 we are bound as a society to support them through any medical problems no matter how much money they have in the bank.

Secondly, if we want to look at it forensically the money and time spent in means testing (which will be conducted by the HSE) will potentially exceed the 100m our government plans to save,

This is a shocking chapter in Irish Politics and if this is allowed to stand I am very concerned for us as a society and a nation.

On this note are there any protests planned for the Dublin area?

EGaffney

1. Why should I (assuming I am a representative taxpayer) pay for the pharmacy bills of a person who is far wealthier than I am?

2. There is no way that it would cost €100 million to means test applicants for a medical card.

3. The "right" to a medical card - which is manipulative language BTW and an attempt to shut off debate - did not exist before the government itself granted cards to everybody in very prosperous times.

flying--fox

So what if there are rich old people out there? Most if these WORKED for their wealth, EARNED it and PAID TAXES their whole lives. Now when they need something back they sure as hell should be entitled to it, because they paid for it with their years of work.
I don't begrudge anyone: former heart surgeon, former high court judge etc their wealth they worked hard for.
Should you penalize someone for being successful and getting up off their arse and making a success of themselves?

If you want to save the state money than take some benefits off these eternal job seekers and other wasters.
I don't see why we should support those people, I do see why we should support elderly people who did work.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

dresden8

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No that's capitalism screwing over the working person to prop up the rich, because they can't be allowed to fail. They can afford to let us die though.

meanmachine3

whenever there are elctions we all come out and say no we're not voting FF and everytime it's the same, they always get back in, so we've no one to blame but ourselves.
for many a year i've been to type of person who would say every person for themselves, but i totally disagree and it makes me sick to see whats happened to the pensioners medical cards.
i mainly post in commuting and transport but like everyone else i'm here to voice my opinion. they're on about saving the economy and yet they kick every pensioner right between the legs instead of looking at other areas that are being widely abused and money pissed against the wind.
an all to common sight i've seen whilst driving buses is the new buggy trick.
e.g. someone gets on my bus with a perfectly good buggy with the exception that there might be a loose wheel or something extremely minor wrong with it, it's brought to the owners attention that it's being left behind when leaving the bus and what do we get " i dont want it ,i'll get a new one tomorrow of the social welfare." this has been going on for many years and it sickens me when i see something like that. these can cost up to hundreds of euro a pop.
also
i'm sure many posters in boards have come across my next one.
you advertise a car for sale in a mag, some guy comes out, wants the car. you want cash for selling. what does the buyer do, goes of to the social tells them a sob sob story that they need a car, next day they turn up at the car sellers house with a legit cheque from the social welfare for full payment for the car.
and our beloved goverenment want to rob the old and weak.
most of us posting here are lucky in that we are paying some of the lowest rates of tax ever in the history of the state, the pensioners were robbed (they paid some of the highest rates) and now the sheriff of west dublin is robbing these poor folks again.how much lower can he go?
sorry just a rant but it really pisses me of when i see such open abuse of the system

earlyevening

The medical card and VHI cover entirely different things. The argument that certain people cancelled their VHI when they got the card has got to be nonsense dreamt up by Labour. I want to hear from at least one of these people on the radio.
With the card they got free GP visits and medication and were entitled to access to the public health service (as everyone is). VHI does nothing for GP visits or pharmacy bills. It gets you access to private hospital care. That's all.

Poor pensioners retain the medical card - thats fine.
Rich pensioners lose it - thats fine in my view. Earn over about 34k and you lose it. They can afford to pay the GP and the up to 100 a month to the chemist. The notion that just because you're old you ought to be entitled to everything and anything for free is wrong. Its different with ability to pay.
The ones who'll feel the squeeze and are being treated perhaps unfairly are the ones who get state pension plus a small private pension. Lets say 300 a week for a single person. They will struggle to pay for GP and medication and are not entitled to the card. Even if they get a Gp only card, pharmacy bills are still high enough.
In 2000 the drug payment scheme covered more. I think it was 90 per quarter rather than 100 a month was the max one had to pay for medication.
Thats the real issue here and the one we might see some movement on. We wont see re introduction of the free for all scheme.

dresden8

Early, you must be in a really ****ty job if you think 34k is rich.

G-Dogg

earlyevening wrote: »

The medical card and VHI cover entirely different things. The argument that certain people cancelled their VHI when they got the card has got to be nonsense dreamt up by Labour. I want to hear from at least one of these people on the radio.
With the card they got free GP visits and medication and were entitled to access to the public health service (as everyone is). VHI does nothing for GP visits or pharmacy bills. It gets you access to private hospital care. That's all.

Poor pensioners retain the medical card - thats fine.
Rich pensioners lose it - thats fine in my view. Earn over about 34k and you lose it. They can afford to pay the GP and the up to 100 a month to the chemist. The notion that just because you're old you ought to be entitled to everything and anything for free is wrong. Its different with ability to pay.
The ones who'll feel the squeeze and are being treated perhaps unfairly are the ones who get state pension plus a small private pension. Lets say 300 a week for a single person. They will struggle to pay for GP and medication and are not entitled to the card. Even if they get a Gp only card, pharmacy bills are still high enough.
In 2000 the drug payment scheme covered more. I think it was 90 per quarter rather than 100 a month was the max one had to pay for medication.
Thats the real issue here and the one we might see some movement on. We wont see re introduction of the free for all scheme.

VHI cover at least half of GP visits. If you visit a GP on regular basis as many elderly have to that is useful. The VHI don't pay for drugs but they do cover therapies and treatments of various ailments. The VHI have introduced a waiver scheme especially for people who came off the VHI when the card was given to the over seventies. They waiver the reintroduction of waiting periods (two years and ten for pre-existing conditions) for a flat fee of the several thousand you would have been putting into the VHI during the years you dropped the scheme. The VHI ask for a photocopy of the card to ensure that its start date meets the date the former customer dropped their insurance. There may not be many people who did this but the VHI are obviously expecting enough to introduce the waiver. I personally know of one person so there you go, almost as good as hearing it on the radio.

luckat

GP visits - I hear the GPs saying that medical card patients make 10 visits a year, or something.

I go to the GP every three months - but that's his choice, not mine. I'm on two medications long-term, and he will only give me a three-month prescription for them.

Otherwise I'd only go to see him if I felt unwell.

It's most likely the same for most people.

earlyevening

dresden8 wrote: »

Early, you must be in a really ****ty job if you think 34k is rich.

I'm not, but its my opinion that that type of income is high for a mortgage free single person over 70.

dresden8

earlyevening wrote: »

I'm not, but its my opinion that that type of income is high for a mortgage free single person over 70.

Yes, we know all over 70's own their own homes, and people of that age aren't literally falling apart and need expensive medications and doctor/hospital visits (at €100 a pop no less).

When exactly can we expect FF to write out to the oldsters and tell them they're all loaded and to shut the f*ck up?