Humane despach

harly1516

Can you get a pistol for humane despach ??? any one

J.R.

harly1516 wrote: »

Can you get a pistol for humane despach ??? any one

As far as I'm aware pistols are only permitted for target practice.

Vets are allowed a humane killer which not a pistol, in the true sense.

Rovi

harly1516 wrote: »

Can you get a pistol for humane despach ??? any one

I hear occasional talk of someone who knows someone who knows a lad who got a handgun for humane dispatch when hunting deer, but I have yet to meet one of these mythical creatures, or even meet someone with firsthand knowledge of someone else who has such a thing.
Given the attitude of the powers-that-be to civilian held handguns, I'd be very sceptical of any such stories.

Vets and Masters of Hounds used to be able to licence a sort of neutered single shot 'revolver' with no sights for this purpose, I'm led to believe, but I've never seen one of these and I don't know how the DOJ/Gardai managed them or if they are even still available.
I seem to remember something about them being .38 or possibly .32 calibre; anyone able to confirm or deny this?

IRLConor

harly1516 wrote: »

Can you get a pistol for humane despach ??? any one

If your local Super says yes, then yes. I haven't heard of any Super saying yes though.

I suspect if dispatching animals was part of your job you'd have a chance but if you're just a recreational hunter I wouldn't hold out much hope.

John Griffin

Yes i have a S&W .357mag for that very purpose and this was the stated use on application. It took well over a year and alot of talking to the Super but i eventually got it. I usually use magtech soft .38 specials, but also keep a couple of mags in it also incase and animal gets up. I have shot alot of animals with it, including a horse that was injured in a road accident for the Gardai. Vet turned up with a .32 single shot as i arrived and reckoned i was better armed and insisted i do the job.

harly1516

Thanks lads

J. Ramone

J.R. wrote: »

As far as I'm aware pistols are only permitted for target practice.

Vets are allowed a humane killer which not a pistol, in the true sense.

A vet friend has recently informed me that a captive bolt gun does not give effective travel for the euthenesia of horses and that vets are entitled to cartridge firearms for this purpose. Not sure what the licencing regulations are.

Rovi

Me wrote: »

I hear occasional talk of someone who knows someone who knows a lad who got a handgun for humane dispatch when hunting deer, but I have yet to meet one of these mythical creatures, or even meet someone with firsthand knowledge of someone else who has such a thing.

John Griffin wrote: »

Yes i have a S&W .357mag for that very purpose and this was the stated use on application.

Well knock me down with a feather!
It appears that I DO 'know' someone with a handgun for humane dispatch; in an anonymous 'Internet Friend' kind of way.


Fair play to you John, I'd been firmly of the opinion that the stories I'd heard were entirely works of fiction; we now know that not only CAN it be done, it HAS been done.
Perhaps, in time, carrying a handgun for humane dispatch whilst hunting deer will become the norm (or even mandatory), as it is pretty much everywhere else deer are hunted with firearms.

alan123

I was just about to say "No way" until JG made me eat my thoughts!!

I heard a rumour/chinese whisper that the Gov was going to recall all handguns, again.

jimbo 22

Just on the matter of dispatching animals humanely

How are they dispatching wounded Deer?

Im guessing firing a centerfire rifle at close range would be reckless and out of the question

A hunting knife would be a bit bloody and inhumane

A hangun could be handy, but then again you would still need something with plenty of power to finnish the job off :rolleyes:

I rember my dad telling me years ago (im talkin bak in the 70's) how he fired a .22 close range (head shot) at a dying fresian bull to put him out of his misery - storey goes that the bull never reacted as if it had been shot at all when hit with the first bullet. It took a second shot to finnish off the job

Trojan911

alan123 wrote: »

I heard a rumour/chinese whisper that the Gov was going to recall all handguns, again.

If this happens will there be a huge payout for the revokation of the firearms? It's going to cost the government.

I remember in the UK having to surrender my three Sec 1's after Dunblane. A lot of money was paid out to licensed holders by the government, because not only was the firearm confiscated but the peripherals that go with it i.e speed loaders, spare mags, reloaders, scopes etc and we claimed for these as extras.

Grizzly 45

How are they dispatching wounded Deer?

Im guessing firing a centerfire rifle at close range would be reckless and out of the question

And awkward,as most injured animals will pull back into dense cover where maybe a handgunor xtra short shotgun might be in order.

A hunting knife would be a bit bloody and inhumane

Also downright dangerous unless you know what you are doing!I know three German hunters with hand tendon damage from ROE deer,who got the antlers thru the hand when trying to humane dispatch with a knife.
So imagine trying that stunt with a Red.

A hangun could be handy, but then again you would still need something with plenty of power to finnish the job off :rolleyes:

Minimum is 9mm with JHP for it to be considerd legal and humane dispatchon the Continent.Remember you are talking up close and personal here,not at the 15 meter line on the range.

I rember my dad telling me years ago (im talkin bak in the 70's) how he fired a .22 close range (head shot) at a dying fresian bull to put him out of his misery - storey goes that the bull never reacted as if it had been shot at all when hit with the first bullet. It took a second shot to finnish off the job

Easily.Cattle are tough headed animals. If you dont get the placement dead right and point blank they can abaorb .22 shells somthing fierce.

Sparks

alan123 wrote: »

I was just about to say "No way" until JG made me eat my thoughts!!

Same here. I suspect JG's professional role managing deer would have been a major factor in the Super's decision, mind you. And while if it's been done once it might be done again, it is purely down to the Super, and I suspect few would licence a .40 glock to do the job normally done by a humane dispatch pistol (which IIRC were basicly large-calibre revolvers with the barrel welded in place to make them single-shot devices and the sights filed off).

BryanL

Most foxhunting packs will have a Pistol or humane killer, this is licenced for the dispatch of fallen stock and any fox they may dig(if they do not dig they they are not required to have one).
Most are either like a 10 inch pipe where a .32 bullet is placed at the top and a top threaded to the "pipe" a tap on the top fires the bullet. Or else a psitol like sparks described.
On side note i would say that JG may have had the more suitable tool but Horses are very difficult to hit correctly without a good knowledge of their anatomy and i would be slow to volunteer to dispatch them without a loy of experience.
Many vets are slow to do the job without an injection due to the difficulty involved
Bryan

alan123

Trojan911 wrote: »

If this happens will there be a huge payout for the revokation of the firearms? It's going to cost the government.

I remember in the UK having to surrender my three Sec 1's after Dunblane. A lot of money was paid out to licensed holders by the government, because not only was the firearm confiscated but the peripherals that go with it i.e speed loaders, spare mags, reloaders, scopes etc and we claimed for these as extras.

I dont think they paid out the last time (1972??)

Sparks

'72 wasn't confiscation, legally (just in practise).

Gerri

John Griffin wrote: »

Yes i have a S&W .357mag for that very purpose and this was the stated use on application. It took well over a year and alot of talking to the Super but i eventually got it. I usually use magtech soft .38 specials, but also keep a couple of mags in it also incase and animal gets up. I have shot alot of animals with it, including a horse that was injured in a road accident for the Gardai. Vet turned up with a .32 single shot as i arrived and reckoned i was better armed and insisted i do the job.

John
If I may ask a question, does it state on your firearms licence that you have it for humane despatch or are you taking it that because it was on your application it was issued for humane despatch? Reason for the question is I have had two opposing responses from NPWS when I queried the use of a pistol for humane despatch; one reply was negative as it would not meet the legal requirements regarding muzzle energy, the other was that any humane means , emphasis on humane, was allowable. Neither person I spoke to was willing to put their response in writing. Coillte do not allow any handguns on any of their property, regardless of whether the person holds a deer letting or not. It would seem that if a person is out deer stalking that they already have the best tool for humane despatch, a rifle, so realistically there is no need to carry a pistol for humane despatch. If they can safely get close enough to us a pistol they are also close enough to put a second rifle bullet in the animal.

Mellor

Two comments on your post,
one alot of pistols wouldn't have the legal required (muzzle) energy. John G uses a 38 special, so its quite a large caliber.

Secondly, at rifle at close range is not the best tool for the job. Nobody wants to use a pistol for the sake of it, its because at higher velocities, rifle rounds are more likely to ricochet

any way my 2c

Grizzly 45

Well contray to NPWS thought we HAVE moved on in firearms since the 1960s.Belive it or not there ARE actually handguns that surpass rifles in muzzle velocity and bullet weight.Nor does NPWS have a monoply on deer in Ireland either.The whole idea of having a handgun is for operative word"humane" dispatch that does not cause undue further suffering to the stricken animal or put the dispatcher in danger.

Tearing thru thick brush with a long barreld firearm after a large injured animal with large pointy things on its head MIGHT fit in the latter category of dangerous pastimes.:rolleyes:
Nor suggesting like some Supers did in the UK[where this is about the only reason for a section 5 firearm possesion by a professional stalker].That using a mallet or ball pien hammer to bash in the skull would suffice!:eek:
Can see what the antis would say about that one!

IRLConor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nor suggesting like some Supers did in the UK[where this is about the only reason for a section 5 firearm possesion by a professional stalker].That using a mallet or ball pien hammer to bash in the skull would suffice!:eek:

A deer-sized priest? :eek:

Whatever about the danger from ricochet from a rifle, going after a big, wounded animal with pointy bits sticking out of it carrying only a blunt object sounds like a Darwin Award waiting to happen.




Perhaps some of the concern from Gardai/NPWS/Coillte about handguns for humane dispatch is that:

1. Handguns, being a more "pointable" than rifles need a little more discipline in terms of keeping them pointed in a safe direction. It's not rocket science and with good training and ROs it's not much of a problem on a range, but out after deer it's down to the discipline of the hunter. They probably don't want the hassle of having to vet who is and isn't safe.
2. Fearing that allowing handguns for humane dispatch is a "slippery slope" towards people arguing for them being licensed for hunting. They probably don't want that, it's bad enough that there are eejits out there who'll take a pop at a deer with a shotgun or a .22lr, adding handguns to the mix isn't going to help.

I'm not saying that those reasons are sufficient to warrant not issuing FACs for handguns for humane dispatch, but it's certainly possible that they are contributory factors.

meathstevie

I take your point Conor but I also think nobody is looking for very high end stuff either. I think most people would be quite happy with a single action with sufficient power to put the lights out on a deer sized animal from very close length, let's say two arm lenghts away.

IRLConor

meathstevie wrote: »

I take your point Conor but I also think nobody is looking for very high end stuff either. I think most people would be quite happy with a single action with sufficient power to put the lights out on a deer sized animal from very close length, let's say two arm lenghts away.

Oh yeah, but I think if you do the analysis from the point of view of the politicians who ultimately would decide on this, it doesn't make sense to allow even those. And that's assuming that they take a 100% rational, logical approach to it! :rolleyes:

Out of curiosity, for those of you who know the situation in other countries, if someone accidentally discharged a pistol in a forest while out hunting deer and they injured a hunting partner where would the public lay the blame?

1. With the hunter for unsafely handling the firearm.
2. With the police for issuing the permit for the handgun.
3. With the government for allowing those permits to be issued.

My guess is that in Ireland the general public would blame c, then b, then a and it would be the reverse order elsewhere.

Grizzly 45

Whatever about the danger from ricochet from a rifle, going after a big, wounded animal with pointy bits sticking out of it carrying only a blunt object sounds like a Darwin Award waiting to happen.

This was a genuine suggestion by two cheif Supers in the UK when a pro stalker applied for a handgun!Just goes to show what sort of "logic" is applied over there!

Perhaps some of the concern from Gardai/NPWS/Coillte about handguns for humane dispatch is that:

1. Handguns, being a more "pointable" than rifles need a little more discipline in terms of keeping them pointed in a safe direction. It's not rocket science and with good training and ROs it's not much of a problem on a range, but out after deer it's down to the discipline of the hunter. They probably don't want the hassle of having to vet who is and isn't safe.

Well,considering they have just liscensed the hunter for a firearm that is 100% more deadlier than a handgun in how far it can reach out and touch .And a handgun is the most difficult to learn how to use properly in aiming and hitting,it is a pretty weak arguement logically.

2. Fearing that allowing handguns for humane dispatch is a "slippery slope" towards people arguing for them being licensed for hunting. They probably don't want that, it's bad enough that there are eejits out there who'll take a pop at a deer with a shotgun or a .22lr, adding handguns to the mix isn't going to help.

And what exactly would be wrong with handgun hunting with a proper big calibre handgun??If you think it is difficult on a range with static targets.Try lugging thru heavy brush/forest and then stay steady enough to try a double hand hold shot.Plus if you are issued/aquire a handgun of a specific type for close range dispatch,you are unlikely to try hunting with it.You get idiots in allwalks of life,no reason for good ideas or others to suffer.

Grizzly 45

Out of curiosity, for those of you who know the situation in other countries, if someone accidentally discharged a pistol in a forest while out hunting deer and they injured a hunting partner where would the public lay the blame?

1. With the hunter for unsafely handling the firearm.
2. With the police for issuing the permit for the handgun.
3. With the government for allowing those permits to be issued.

My guess is that in Ireland the general public would blame c, then b, then a and it would be the reverse order elsewhere.

[/QUOTE]


Well for Germany,YOU would be the one in trouble.Not the Police or Govt.Irrespective of accidental or deliberate discharge.
There is like Ireland more than enough controls to make sure you are competant to handle firearms.That doesnt apply that human error is ruled out.So C and B made and enforce the rules[well actually the county council for want of a better term].So it falls back to A.

Gerri

Mellor wrote: »

Two comments on your post,
one alot of pistols wouldn't have the legal required (muzzle) energy. John G uses a 38 special, so its quite a large caliber.

Secondly, at rifle at close range is not the best tool for the job. Nobody wants to use a pistol for the sake of it, its because at higher velocities, rifle rounds are more likely to ricochet

any way my 2c

If you run ballistics software on currently available pistols in Ireland, none come close to 1650 muzzle energy and the danger from rifle rounds ricochet if using proper expanding rounds is minimal, even at close range. The danger from a miss or poor hit at close range with a pistol is possible and if using fmj bullets, possibility of ricochet is increased. Besides, do you really want to have to deal with antlers and hooves at close range just so you can use a pistol? Far safer to stay back a bit and use the rifle. Isn't it funny that prior to 2004, deer were being shot and humanely despatched by hunters who had not got pistols? I wonder how they managed without them? Maybe they used their rifles? John, Perhaps you could reply to my original questions and throw some light on the subject?

Mellor

Gerri wrote: »

Besides, do you really want to have to deal with antlers and hooves at close range just so you can use a pistol?

I think you comment above is pretty disrespectful and out of line. While some people may wish to do this "just to use a pistol". Sugesting that this is John motive is terrible, even worse considering his profession.
They very few people around here who advocate the "just so" approach option. The .22lr on fox debate, crossbow hunting etc.

thelurcher

I hunt the odd time with a fella that got a 9mm purely for humane dispatch - the gun shop didn't want to release the gun to him because he didn't join their club!
I was looking at one of the revolvers that the hunts use at the weekend - there's a place for only one round in it. 22lr would be enough for a fox point blank though I'd think.

I've been asked to PTS a lot of animals of all kinds over the years from cats to cows. What are your views on the 12ga on the larger animals - again point blank.

CJhaughey

Gerri wrote: »

If you run ballistics software on currently available pistols in Ireland, none come close to 1650 muzzle energy and the danger from rifle rounds ricochet if using proper expanding rounds is minimal, even at close range. The danger from a miss or poor hit at close range with a pistol is possible and if using fmj bullets, possibility of ricochet is increased.

I think your reasoning is flawed, I would much rather use a pistol at close range for dispatching an animal, thats what they are designed to do!
Nobody recommended the use of FMJ ammo for animals where did you get that idea?
as for the 1650 M.E., that is mainly because the distance to an animal could be 200m + and there needs to be sufficient energy delivered to the target at that distance.
A pistol cartridge develops much lower energy with good reason, seeing as the usable range will probably be under <25m.
I would be slow to use a centrefire rifle at close range at an animal on the ground, muzzle velocity on rifles is just too high to be taking a chance that there isn't a rock just under the animal.

Grizzly 45

Gerri wrote: »

If you run ballistics software on currently available pistols in Ireland, none come close to 1650 muzzle energy and the danger from rifle rounds ricochet if using proper expanding rounds is minimal

Errr No there is plenty out there from 45 Win Mag up wards that cover this.

. The danger from a miss or poor hit at close range with a pistol is possible and if using fmj bullets, possibility of ricochet is increased

Wht would you use a military round?
.

Besides, do you really want to have to deal with antlers and hooves at close range just so you can use a pistol?

Well, your terrain might make swinging a rifle around in dense brush with your scent dog on a lead[which you should have as a stalker!] an intresting event!Deer etc,dont hang around if injured in the open they get into deep cover to recuperate or die.Of course if you are So anti handgun,your other option in the EU is allowing liscensed hunters access to ultra short shotguns or semi auto carbines Called Nachsuche gewhere[Trans search follow up guns].So either options are good by me.

.

Isn't it funny that prior to 2004, deer were being shot and humanely despatched by hunters who had not got pistols? I wonder how they managed without them? Maybe they used their rifles?

Well,that is true but I wonder how many other botched jobs were done by doing this,or hunters put themselves at great risk from richochets or being gored by doing the knife stabbing trick,or that injured deer were not followed up on either???

Gerri

Mellor wrote: »

I think you comment above is pretty disrespectful and out of line. While some people may wish to do this "just to use a pistol". Sugesting that this is John motive is terrible, even worse considering his profession.
They very few people around here who advocate the "just so" approach option. The .22lr on fox debate, crossbow hunting etc.

Misquoted, I was not referring to JG. Perhaps I should have said "One" rather than "you" (plural). Can't think of a valid reason to use a pistol when carrying a rifle which is more suitable for the job because of the higher velocity/energy. With regard to JG's profession, I am not aware that a pistol is a requirement and because he chooses to carry one for HD of wounded animals it does not invalidate any of my questions, which are genuine as I am puzzled by the opposing comments from NPWS.

Gerri

CJhaughey wrote: »

I think your reasoning is flawed, I would much rather use a pistol at close range for dispatching an animal, thats what they are designed to do!
Nobody recommended the use of FMJ ammo for animals where did you get that idea?
as for the 1650 M.E., that is mainly because the distance to an animal could be 200m + and there needs to be sufficient energy delivered to the target at that distance.
A pistol cartridge develops much lower energy with good reason, seeing as the usable range will probably be under <25m.
I would be slow to use a centrefire rifle at close range at an animal on the ground, muzzle velocity on rifles is just too high to be taking a chance that there isn't a rock just under the animal.

Expanding ammunition hitting a hard surface at close range generally fragments or disintegrates on impact. Not always but it is what usually happens. Never discussed FMJ for hunting, these would be very likely to ricochet on striking a hard surface, I was referring to the risk from FMJ pistol ammo, which is readily available and commonly used in 9mm. .38 and .357 will most likely have lead bullets which will be very effective on wounded animals but I think the majority of large calibre pistols here are 9mm, followed by .22 and then 38/357.

Gerri

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Errr No there is plenty out there from 45 Win Mag up wards that cover this.


Wht would you use a military round?
.

Well, your terrain might make swinging a rifle around in dense brush with your scent dog on a lead[which you should have as a stalker!] an intresting event!Deer etc,dont hang around if injured in the open they get into deep cover to recuperate or die.Of course if you are So anti handgun,your other option in the EU is allowing liscensed hunters access to ultra short shotguns or semi auto carbines Called Nachsuche gewhere[Trans search follow up guns].So either options are good by me.

.

Isn't it funny that prior to 2004, deer were being shot and humanely despatched by hunters who had not got pistols? I wonder how they managed without them? Maybe they used their rifles?

Well,that is true but I wonder how many other botched jobs were done by doing this,or hunters put themselves at great risk from richochets or being gored by doing the knife stabbing trick,or that injured deer were not followed up on either???

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Errr No there is plenty out there from 45 Win Mag up wards that cover this.


Wht would you use a military round?
.

Well, your terrain might make swinging a rifle around in dense brush with your scent dog on a lead[which you should have as a stalker!] an intresting event!Deer etc,dont hang around if injured in the open they get into deep cover to recuperate or die.Of course if you are So anti handgun,your other option in the EU is allowing liscensed hunters access to ultra short shotguns or semi auto carbines Called Nachsuche gewhere[Trans search follow up guns].So either options are good by me.

.

Isn't it funny that prior to 2004, deer were being shot and humanely despatched by hunters who had not got pistols? I wonder how they managed without them? Maybe they used their rifles?

Well,that is true but I wonder how many other botched jobs were done by doing this,or hunters put themselves at great risk from richochets or being gored by doing the knife stabbing trick,or that injured deer were not followed up on either???

45Win Mag 830ft.lbs ME, slightly less than required 1650?


FMJ is more commonly available for large calibre pistols , except for 38/357.

Unfortunately, we still operate under Irish Law, not yet completely EU law.


I'm not anti handgun, just haven't heard a valid reason for carrying one for HD, and still have to see a pistol licence with Humane Despatch on it.

Where I am coming from; I have DSC Level 1,HCAP, I hunt deer, I shoot pistol regularly,I am authorised to have a Humane Despatch pistol (cost approx 1000 euro plus VAT, ammo 50 euro per box,.32 cal ACP, 77gn lead I think. McDonnells of Queen St sell them, but you must have your authorisation first). Based on the information from my last contact with NPWS I am legally entitled to use my pistol (any calibre) for humanely despatching animals including deer provided I do it humanely. I am also entitled to use my rifle, or a knife or any other implement so long as it does not cause unecessary suffering to the animal. Why bother carrying a firearm which is extra weight when it might never be needed , is less efficient unless used really close (endangering the user from antlers,hooves etc.), can't be used legally on Coillte lettings and is no substitute for a carefully placed rifle shot.

meathstevie

thelurcher wrote: »

I hunt the odd time with a fella that got a 9mm purely for humane dispatch - the gun shop didn't want to release the gun to him because he didn't join their club!
I was looking at one of the revolvers that the hunts use at the weekend - there's a place for only one round in it. 22lr would be enough for a fox point blank though I'd think.

I've been asked to PTS a lot of animals of all kinds over the years from cats to cows. What are your views on the 12ga on the larger animals - again point blank.

Sufficient power but would you want to carry one and a rifle when after deer ? As a humane killer for wounded animals it sure is powerfull enough.

John Griffin

Gerri wrote: »

John
If I may ask a question, does it state on your firearms licence that you have it for humane despatch or are you taking it that because it was on your application it was issued for humane despatch? Reason for the question is I have had two opposing responses from NPWS when I queried the use of a pistol for humane despatch; one reply was negative as it would not meet the legal requirements regarding muzzle energy, the other was that any humane means , emphasis on humane, was allowable. Neither person I spoke to was willing to put their response in writing. Coillte do not allow any handguns on any of their property, regardless of whether the person holds a deer letting or not. It would seem that if a person is out deer stalking that they already have the best tool for humane despatch, a rifle, so realistically there is no need to carry a pistol for humane despatch. If they can safely get close enough to us a pistol they are also close enough to put a second rifle bullet in the animal.

My license does not state what my revolver is licensed for. Much the same way as a firearms cert will not specify target shooting only. But it was a reason i gave on my application.
You can use any method you see fit to dispatch a wounded animal to prevent further suffering, hammer, knife, pistol, shotgun, etc,etc, according to the wildlife act, I'm too lazy to quote the section but it's there in black and white.

Grizzly 45

.

45Win Mag 830ft.lbs ME, slightly less than required 1650?

Well, it is good enough to drop wild boar,so it will drop deer!Remember you are shooting at 12ft or less not out at 20 meters.This is the whole point.

FMJ is more commonly available for large calibre pistols , except for 38/357.

JHP is available here,and is common enough in all calibres.

Unfortunately, we still operate under Irish Law, not yet completely EU law.

True,but we are ala carte Europeans.We take what suits[usually money and crap law] and disregard what doesnt suit.[Usually benefical and tough law,until thew EU rams it down our throats.:(] So why cant we for once adapt somthing that is benefical???

I'm not anti handgun, just haven't heard a valid reason for carrying one for HD, and still have to see a pistol licence with Humane Despatch on it.

Err your cert doesnt have a purpose category on it.

Where I am coming from; I have DSC Level 1,HCAP, I hunt deer, I shoot pistol regularly,I am authorised to have a Humane Despatch pistol (cost approx 1000 euro plus VAT, ammo 50 euro per box,.32 cal ACP, 77gn lead I think. McDonnells of Queen St sell them, but you must have your authorisation first). Based on the information from my last contact with NPWS I am legally entitled to use my pistol (any calibre) for humanely despatching animals including deer provided I do it humanely. I am also entitled to use my rifle, or a knife or any other implement so long as it does not cause unecessary suffering to the anima

Fine,so you then understand the idea of using a handgun at point blank range.
Can a humane dispatch pistol ve used with stand off safley in that calibre??

HAVE you actually dispatched a deer with a knife????As there is a certain point in it's anatomy to use a knife that will cause instantenously.Where is it???
Where would you hit a deer with a hammer for an istantanous kill??
If your deer was injured at the side of the road,how would you shoot it without causing a danger to the general public with a rifle???Not to mind a negative image?

l. Why bother carrying a firearm which is extra weight when it might never be needed , is less efficient unless used really close (endangering the user from antlers,hooves etc.), can't be used legally on Coillte lettings and is no substitute for a carefully placed rifle shot.

[/QUOTE]
By the same arguement..why have house fire insurance???Doesnt happen every day,but is fierce handy when it does.
Point blank vs standoff.See above points And a it isnt used like a captive bolt killer,on the same point isnt it as dangerous as putting down a injured domestic animal??
coilte,well,unless you hunt on their land...and they dont have the rule over all Ireland[thank God!]on deer.
Even the best placed shot can go arwy.Personally,I want the best tool for the job to sort out my mistake.Not some halfwitted dangerous technique.

alan123

You mean you would bring this guy with you to dispatch your wounded animals?....

John Griffin

Gerri wrote: »

Misquoted, I was not referring to JG. Perhaps I should have said "One" rather than "you" (plural). Can't think of a valid reason to use a pistol when carrying a rifle which is more suitable for the job because of the higher velocity/energy. With regard to JG's profession, I am not aware that a pistol is a requirement and because he chooses to carry one for HD of wounded animals it does not invalidate any of my questions, which are genuine as I am puzzled by the opposing comments from NPWS.

In certain circumstances a rifle is fine for humane dispatch. When you can stand well back from the animal and get a good sight picture with a safe backdrop then thats fine. When a deer drops in deep vegetation such as bracken or heather or in a forestry drain, you would need to be standing beside them to see them. It is not safe to discharge a high powered rifle at such ranges due to ricochet. It is very difficult to be accurate at such ranges also and you risk inflicting further suffering to the animal. I use soft lead pistol ammo in these circumstances whenever possible to reduce the risk to myself and to be more humane to the animal i am dispatching. I would actually prefer to use a shotgun to be honest but it is not practical to carry both.

I have used a knife on many occasions and it is very swift for the animal when done properly, but I have taken many kicks and been bruised and sore. I know of hunters that have been split open and stabbed by deer from this practice. Certainly should never be attempted with antlered deer of any size. I bet Steve Irwin never expected a fish with a spine to kill him so quickly.

Muzzle velocity, caliber, grain weights are not requirements when dispatching an injured animal and it seems your question was interpreted wrongly as to the legal requirement for hunting deer as opposed to legally dispatching an injured deer.

BOBTHESHOOTER

John Griffin wrote: »

My license does not state what my revolver is licensed for. Much the same way as a firearms cert will not specify target shooting only. But it was a reason i gave on my application.
You can use any method you see fit to dispatch a wounded animal to prevent further suffering, hammer, knife, pistol, shotgun, etc,etc, according to the wildlife act, I'm too lazy to quote the section but it's there in black and white.

Hi John
Whatever about humane despatch you take no prisoners with your photography, I took a minute to review your website and you have a real talent for photography. Fantastic wildlife photos.

John Griffin

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Hi John
Whatever about humane despatch you take no prisoners with your photography, I took a minute to review your website and you have a real talent for photography. Fantastic wildlife photos.

Thanks Bob:)

gun papa

Just discovered your great site! Hello from the USA.

Our officers commonly dispatch injured deer here with a .22cal Ruger 10/22 rifle. Shots are generally very close range to the head. We use standard ammunition but may change to CCI Stingers for greater terminal ballistics.

We have 12 guage shotguns with slugs exclusively for large animals. 9mm handguns are within our departments inventory but see little use.

I am the division Law Enforcement firearm instructor here.

While I am employed in California, I live in Nevada. In Nevada there are few firearm restrictions. Within our 2nd Amendment I personally enjoy ownership of handguns, rifles, and various semi-auto handguns, shotguns, and rifles.

In Nevada, with government approval, you can carry a handguns concealed, own suppressors, night-vision scopes, and if you have enough money, machine guns.

Unlike what is portrayed in the media, we do not all shoot one another here. We have very little violent crime in our city. Criminals here do not know who is carrying a gun.

After 7 years in this state I just completed the Concealed Weapons training certification yesterday and hope to have approval within the month.
papa

Grizzly 45

Welcome aboard Gun Papa.:D
Word to the wise talk as much as you like about shooting,but keep the RTKBA and 2nd amendment stuff low key,lest you attract the ire of the Mods.:eek::)
Unfortuneatly or fortuneatly [depending on ones outlook] we dont enjoy such freedoms as you do over in the US in gun ownership.It is considerd a privilidge here not a right.
But do stick around,at least you will be able to tell others how tough the this part of the of the world has it in gun ownership compared to the US.:( Congrats on getting your CCW instructor rating as well.:D

tiny-nioclas

Fáílte GunPapa, welcome to the forum, feel free to post up some pictures of your hardware,

I personally enjoy ownership of handguns, rifles, and various semi-auto handguns, shotguns, and rifles.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Welcome aboard Gun Papa.:D
Word to the wise talk as much as you like about shooting,but keep the RTKBA and 2nd amendment stuff low key,lest you attract the ire of the Mods.:eek::)

I'll second the welcome, but as a mod, don't keep the RKBA stuff low-key, keep it off the board completely. Discussion of RKBA stuff is - check the forum charter - against one of the main rules of the forum.

noel farrell

what are we talking about stalking or finding a deer after an accident if you finde a deer or any large animal in the field or on the road its unlikely you are going to have a firearm of any calibre with you or a knife you will have to improvise if we are discussing stalking the whole point of the sport is to get as close to the deer as we can for a safe shot i have been shooting over 45 years from .22 at vermin to .303 iron sights on deer with the sporting rifles we have now in calibers we could only dream up to a few years ago and common and some training there is no excuse for wounding deer if you are not sure dont take the shot dont read all the crap in the shooting mags mostly from across the pond i use a 25.06 saco s b german 8x50 scope 117 soft good brand ammo the are rarely wounded happy hunting

gun papa

Sparks wrote: »

I'll second the welcome, but as a mod, don't keep the RKBA stuff low-key, keep it off the board completely. Discussion of RKBA stuff is - check the forum charter - against one of the main rules of the forum.

I mean no disrespect in saying this- I am taken a bit by surprise with the response. I do not know to what country this forum originates of its laws at all.
I am not making the thread a RTKBA issue. I do not understand the furver of the issue. What I mean is- guns, as far as I am concerned have been a lifetime constant since I could remember- Like the sky being blue. To me it has not been an issue and I was unaware.

Also, not that it means anything, but I am a SWAT trained LEO firearms instructor.

I found this site by searching for humane ways to dispatch wildlife.

I respect the laws of whatever country. Your laws are your laws.
Should I refrain from discussing firearms or just RTKBA?

One member asked me to post a pic. Is that okay?
If so, here are some of my long guns. 3 down is auto shotgun.


regards papa

spynappels

Hey Papa,

What's the bottom one in the photo? Have airsoft versions of most of the others but cannot identify the bottom one.

Thanks.
Stefan.

gun papa

The Bottom gun is a Plainfield M1 Carbine paratrooper or super enforcer. It is a commercial made, mil spec 1970's production. papa

Sparks

gun papa wrote: »

I mean no disrespect in saying this- I am taken a bit by surprise with the response. I do not know to what country this forum originates of its laws at all.

No insult meant or taken GP, the issue is just that the forum is meant to be for shooting sports and hunting; the RKBA stuff hasn't anything to do with either, and there are literally hundreds of places to discuss the RKBA topic, but precious few for discussion of sport, so we try to keep the focus on sport and hunting in here.

Should I refrain from discussing firearms or just RTKBA?

Just RKBA. I didn't meant to imply you were posting about it, by the way, just that if you'd not seen the forum charter, you might not get the joke that Grizzly was making.

One member asked me to post a pic. Is that okay?

Of course.

Grizzly 45

And a very fine collection it is too GP:D. Are they select fire or semis??
3rd up from the bottom is that a US made SIG 550?How does it compare to the AR15 below it??
Regds
Grizzly

ianoo

well papa welcome on board...

thats a fine colection you have there,
must be hard to decide which one to use (would love to have that problem ha ha )

ian

gun papa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And a very fine collection it is too GP:D. Are they select fire or semis??
3rd up from the bottom is that a US made SIG 550?How does it compare to the AR15 below it??
Regds
Grizzly

All semi. Though FA is available they are cost prohibitive. I would rather have a suppressor. The Sig is very nice. As it compares to the AR below it I could not tell you. I got the AR as a gift over a year ago and have yet to shoot it. Shame isn't it.

The Sig while piston driven suffers from the same pet peeve of mine that I feel for the AR's. You have to clean through a captive receiver tube which makes cleaning tedious, unlike the L1A1 and the Ak's which allow you top access to clean.

The short A3 Ar has served me very well. The two Romanian AKM's, rifle and pistol config. (both with red furnature) get the most use as I spend alot of time in the high desert with them as companions. I can shoot without restriction 1 mile or so from my home.

I shoot alot of .22lr both rifle and pistol to keep the skills sharp.

By the way. What counrty are you fellows in?

Glad you like. papa