SIMI stepping out of line?

smash

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/1015/1223988031202.html

I think they're stepping out of line - they're there to help dealers and they should really stand for quality, assurance etc. But taking the law into their own hands and asking dealers to do the same is a very vigilante attitude to say the least!

Any opinions?

Cookie_Monster

Thats totally uncalled for and none of their business.

If they spent more time concentrating on giving best possible value to customers there wouldn't be as many people going abroad to buy cars in the first place.

You don't see them outing dealers for clocking, over charging, poor service etc etc

R.O.R

Hmmmm, I wonder if that's what this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055396643 was about.

Kingmaker

I'm with cookie monster- SIMI is all about shafting Irish motorists

Zonda999

Dont particularly like this move either but i still dont think people should be able to get away without vrt'ing their cars.Theres something good about this sort of thing on RTE-1 this sunday night at 7:30.From the preview there on the last episode, there goin after some f**ker in an unregistered 7 series beemer.The shows called "Customs" by the way

handbraker

in fairness customs have raised there game a lot recently & are much more visible than they were 12 months ago.if you drive with un-registered plates for more than 2 months now u will be caught

Cookie_Monster

Kingmaker wrote: »

I'm with cookie monster- SIMI is all about shafting Irish motorists

the clue is in the name;)
Shafting Irish Motorists Intently

L-M

R.O.R wrote: »

Hmmmm, I wonder if that's what this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055396643 was about.

:pac:

unkel

To be honest, if someone's illegal actions were threatening my job, I'd do anything in my power (legally) to stop it

lafors

handbraker wrote: »

in fairness customs have raised there game a lot recently & are much more visible than they were 12 months ago.if you drive with un-registered plates for more than 2 months now u will be caught

Customs have had to raise their game to get the missed VRT for the govt.
Really shows how many people are buying abroad, that its now worth their while doing more work to get the tax they're losing from the home car market.

Bunch of idiots (the Govt) if you ask me, they'd make much more in VRT on new cars sold here if they helped stop the rip off.

smash

unkel wrote: »

To be honest, if someone's illegal actions were threatening my job, I'd do anything in my power (legally) to stop it

car dealers are some of the worse offenders, I know they've got a TAN - but they're still making money bringing them in abroad!

Has everyone forgotten the Veyron that was brought in - kept here for a few months without VRT being paid before it was sent off to Spain....

There's 800k VRT lost because they have a TAN number! and they're complaining about someone driving around in a car with VRT worth only 5k

Tipsy Mac

There's a well known car dealer in Dublin driving around in a €100k plus car with a personalised (to his own name) UK plate which he has on his forecourt "for sale" for the past 18 months, handy way of having a flash plate and avoiding VRT. He is not a SIMI garage.

Leprechaun77

Whilst I dont have specific opinions in relation to SIMI, why should people be allowed to drive their cars without paying the necessary VRT? It is the normal Joe who pays his taxes thats made look like a mug otherwise. btw, the legitimacy of these taxes is another days discussion......IMPOUND away lads..the more the merrier!

Darragh29

Leprechaun77 wrote: »

Whilst I dont have specific opinions in relation to SIMI, why should people be allowed to drive their cars without paying the necessary VRT? It is the normal Joe who pays his taxes thats made look like a mug otherwise. btw, the legitimacy of these taxes is another days discussion......IMPOUND away lads..the more the merrier!

Yeah but what any of this has got to do with the SIMI is beyond me.

They should get their own house in order before pointing fingers at other people...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/car-dealer-faces-pricefix-charge-1269267.html

10-10-20

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

There's a well known car dealer in Dublin driving around in a €100k plus car with a personalised (to his own name) UK plate which he has on his forecourt "for sale" for the past 18 months, handy way of having a flash plate and avoiding VRT. He is not a SIMI garage.

Are you referring to an N11 dealership which is up for sale at present?
Did he also previously not have a "250GTO" for sale for €22k back about 5 years ago?

Tipsy Mac

10-10-20 wrote: »

Are you referring to an N11 dealership which is up for sale at present?
Did he also previously not have a "250GTO" for sale for €22k back about 5 years ago?

Yes, that's the chap.

smash

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Yes, that's the chap.

he's got a few cars with uk reg plates and they've probably never left Ireland!

bustershark

Does anyone know if the law regarding the registering of imported cars within a week differs for dealers?
Just did a quick search on carzone for ads that had the words "VRT" for SIMI dealers and came up with this lot -

I am sure that they have all complied with the VRT regulations and registered the cars within the legal limit and just happened to take the photos as soon as the cars landed!

smash

Dealers don't have to register cars on arrival, they can register on the sale of the car.

TheWaterboy

AFIK the customs and guards are keeping an eye on dealers too. I know a particular dealer that has had two cars impounded because their sales reps were caught driving them outside company hours on garage plates.

I think its a fairly low blow on SIMI behalf if they have to resort to these tactics of reporting motorists!

Hellrazer

Dont know how I missed this thread but every Simi garage received a letter and a form last week asking for all employees to look out for unregged/Vrt`d Uk imports.And if they see one then fill out the form and email/fax it to a specific address / fax number.

Dont know whether its safe to post the letter up here though

smash

post it!

jimmycrackcorm

steve06 wrote: »

post it!

And then we can fax in details of cars we see on tv.

Cookie_Monster

steve06 wrote: »

post it!

+1 and then send it to the Indo, I'm sure they'll come up with a very thorough and well balanced article on the issue

Robbo

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And then we can fax in details of cars we see on tv.

A person with a keen eye for chaos might be persuaded to use said form to inundate the ratline with spurious claims...

E92

With attitudes like these, it makes me more and more glad that I never take my cars within an asses roar of an SIMI garage, and furthermore I never will either.

The SIMI doesn't give a flying funk about enforcement about the law - rather it wants to try and force us into buying the overpriced sh!te they're selling that nobody wants.

Kashkai

SIMI are running scared cause they have thousands of unsold 2nd hand cars that are losing hundreds in their individual values by the day and once they round the 31st December date, thousands will have been knocked off their prices. Taking into account the way the VRT changes in July brought down the price of new cars with the knock on effects on 2nd hand stock on the forecourts, its been a very bad year for SIMI and Co after years of raking in the cash.

Personally I hate to see any person having a hard time of it financially but motor dealers are not people to me as for the past 10 years, when I went into garages (all makes of dealer) to buy cars, they treated me with utter contempt, gave very little info on the cars (if any), turned their noses up at any attempts to haggle and snorted that the price they offered was the price I paid or else I could fcuk off. I'm only sorry that I'm not in a position to buy a car at the moment as I'd make the ba$tards squirm for the sale and just when they almost have me signing, I'd look for a few more quid off to hammer the final nail in. Yes I'm bitter but they got away with selling cars at big margins, charging a fortune for servicing and providing damn all after sales service for over 10 years.

Hope the arrogant sh!tes like the feel of hairshirts.

Stevie Dakota

I'm liking militant stance, lets ship in some French truckers to kick things off (i.e, start burning stuff).

melbourne

Is it just me or does it feel like these guys have been fleecing the average Irish car driver for years, now people are starting to do something about it and their crying calling for people to report vrt bandits.

If I remember correctly they tried another scam not to long ago trying to get people done for advertising cars at the road side, granted if the car is causing a hazard it should be removed but SIMI are only involved as their gravy train has slowed down.

L-M

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And then we can fax in details of cars we see on tv.

Lol, quote from the letter went something like this.

Please try to avoid tourists etc which would waste alot of time etc. etc. etc.

Basically don't go out taking down every f3cking reg you see lol:P

bustershark

steve06 wrote: »

Dealers don't have to register cars on arrival, they can register on the sale of the car.

I've heard that this is the case, but I couldn't find anything on the vrt site to back this up and couldn't find anything in the legislation either.
Do you reckon that this is just an informal arrangement that dealers have with Revenue or is there something more concrete?

-Chris-

It would have to be concrete.

What about all the new cars that enter the country unregistered and are held in stock and sometimes testdriven before they're registered?

They'd all come under the same umbrella as the UK imports.

Fey!

Don't dealers have to have the value of the VRT of the unregistered cars on their forecourts in an account, or is that an urban myth?

I always thought that it was illegal, for both trade and private people, to sell cars in this country that are unregistered here. Again, is this an urban myth?

NoSummer

Is SIMI just out to help garages or the public?

-Chris-

Fey! wrote: »

I always thought that it was illegal, for both trade and private people, to sell cars in this country that are unregistered here.

Every new car in Ireland is unregistered until someone buys it. It's illegal to drive a car on public roads without a registration number, it's certainly not illegal to own or sell one (what about racetrack-only cars etc.?).

-Chris-

NoSummer wrote: »

Is SIMI just out to help garages or the public?

That depends on your perspective really. They would say they help the public by helping maintain standards in garages etc.
Many here wouldn't agree with that view and feel the SIMI is just a lobbying body representing the vested interests of the Irish dealer network.

Riskymove

while I think people should be paying the VRT legally due i don't think its a wise move for SIMI dealers to be going around shopping people to Revenue.

Its unlikely to do them any favours with goodwill in the community especially in smaller towns and rural areas.

In the end people will just pay the VRT and/or penalties, it wont do the dealer any good but will cause hassle.

can only imagine the reaction if people started sending details of cars they bought to the Revenue so that they could check tax affairs of dealers!!

sk8board

Heres the letter, was in this weeks Irish Times motoring supplement, front page:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/1015/1223988031202.html


THE SOCIETY of the Irish Motor Industry (SIMI) has called on car dealers to gather details of locals driving UK-registered vehicles, so they can be given to the Garda and Revenue officials.

In an e-mail sent last week, dealers were asked to direct staff to take note of vehicles with UK plates, driven by Irish residents.

Vehicles imported to the Republic should be registered and vehicle registration tax (VRT) paid by the end of the next working day. However, Revenue allows people up to a week to register. Driving an imported vehicle outside those terms can lead to the impounding of the vehicle, with fines and penalties for the driver.

Revenue rejects the suggestion it is not enforcing regulations. However, SIMI estimates the Government is losing out on between €50 million and €100 million annually due to people failing to pay VRT and road tax. The e-mail began: "We are sick and tired of seeing Irish residents driving UK cars on which VRT, road tax, etc, has not been paid." It went on to decry what it called a "continued lack of enforcement".

"We want to collect information . . . to illustrate the level of the problem. We will forward this information to the appointed official . . . with a demand for action and feedback . . ." The e-mail was signed, simply, "Tom, Director SIMI".

SIMI chief executive Alan Nolan confirmed the e-mail was genuine and said "Tom" was Tom Cullen, director of corporate affairs. Asked if SIMI was asking car dealers and their staff to spy on the public, Mr Nolan said the body would make "no apology" for the e-mail.

But Revenue has rejected what it said was "the suggestion that we haven't enforced the VRT regulations . . . Up to the end of August . . . we had challenged over 12,000 cars. In 72 per cent of these cases the registration was satisfactory. For the balance we issued 2,748 written warnings, imposed 673 compromise penalties totalling €716,090 and obtained 18 convictions with court fines amounting to €18,295.

"Monitoring VRT compliance is part of our day-to-day compliance activity. It is supplemented from time to time by major targeted compliance operations," the body said in a statement.

Darragh29

sk8board wrote: »

Heres the letter, was in this weeks Irish Times motoring supplement, front page:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/1015/1223988031202.html


THE SOCIETY of the Irish Motor Industry (SIMI) has called on car dealers to gather details of locals driving UK-registered vehicles, so they can be given to the Garda and Revenue officials.

In an e-mail sent last week, dealers were asked to direct staff to take note of vehicles with UK plates, driven by Irish residents.

Vehicles imported to the Republic should be registered and vehicle registration tax (VRT) paid by the end of the next working day. However, Revenue allows people up to a week to register. Driving an imported vehicle outside those terms can lead to the impounding of the vehicle, with fines and penalties for the driver.

Revenue rejects the suggestion it is not enforcing regulations. However, SIMI estimates the Government is losing out on between €50 million and €100 million annually due to people failing to pay VRT and road tax. The e-mail began: "We are sick and tired of seeing Irish residents driving UK cars on which VRT, road tax, etc, has not been paid." It went on to decry what it called a "continued lack of enforcement".

"We want to collect information . . . to illustrate the level of the problem. We will forward this information to the appointed official . . . with a demand for action and feedback . . ." The e-mail was signed, simply, "Tom, Director SIMI".

SIMI chief executive Alan Nolan confirmed the e-mail was genuine and said "Tom" was Tom Cullen, director of corporate affairs. Asked if SIMI was asking car dealers and their staff to spy on the public, Mr Nolan said the body would make "no apology" for the e-mail.

But Revenue has rejected what it said was "the suggestion that we haven't enforced the VRT regulations . . . Up to the end of August . . . we had challenged over 12,000 cars. In 72 per cent of these cases the registration was satisfactory. For the balance we issued 2,748 written warnings, imposed 673 compromise penalties totalling €716,090 and obtained 18 convictions with court fines amounting to €18,295.

"Monitoring VRT compliance is part of our day-to-day compliance activity. It is supplemented from time to time by major targeted compliance operations," the body said in a statement.

This is absolutely typical of the SIMI. Instead of looking inwards for problems that are obstructing vehicle sales, the first thing they do is look outwards.

Also, I don't you would find it within the job description of any SIMI member employee, to take instructions with regard to this specific request to rat on their neighbours.

This whole request is very obviously being driven by an SIMI member who is really feeling the effects of the recession and could be experiencing trading difficulties, which is grand, but don't take it out on the public...

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

Also, I don't you would find it within the job description of any SIMI member employee, to take instructions with regard to this specific request to rat on their neighbours.

I haven't spoken to a single ground-level employee who either thought this was a good idea or who contributed to it voluntarily.

It didn't go down very well among my contacts anyway...

Johnny Utah

The action advocated by SIMI is illegal under the Data Protection Act. And, how will they be able to tell if it's an English person driving their car over here on holidays?

I can see it now:
Dealer: Sir, are you on holidays?
Guy in a Honda Accord with caravan in tow: Yeah why?
Dealer: No reason, carry on...:pac:

Hotwheels

SIMI chief executive Alan Nolan confirmed the e-mail was genuine and said "Tom" was Tom Cullen, director of corporate affairs. Asked if SIMI was asking car dealers and their staff to spy on the public, Mr Nolan said the body would make "no apology" for the e-mail.

Hmmm reminds me of a Fascist regime that made a similar request 70 odd years ago...Nobody like's VRT! but statements like this IMO have Fascist overtones...

Jonny303

AudiChris wrote: »

That depends on your perspective really. They would say they help the public by helping maintain standards in garages etc.
Many here wouldn't agree with that view and feel the SIMI is just a lobbying body representing the vested interests of the Irish dealer network.

well it is mainly the main dealer network who pay the majority of its income...

parsi

Johnny Utah wrote: »

The action advocated by SIMI is illegal under the Data Protection Act.

In what way ?

Any individual can copy down a bunch of regs and send them to the Guards, Revenue, Cartell or a little black book.

sk8board

nothing illegal about this at all. Its not nice, but its not illegal. Any BMW dealer watching 'Customs' on RTe this evening was a little happier to see one more guy stumping up the 25k VRT and fine.

My guess is that they are going to submit a list of reg's to the guards and then the guards can use them in the newly kitted out Traffic Corps cars with the car-reg recognition cameras which flag suspect reg's.

theres nothing else they can do, unles they also submit addresses where they see a for example 320d parked in the drive/office car-park for a few weeks, and see if the customs come knocking.

Slaacer

Personally I am against the VRT as i see it as a double tax. What other country still charges import duty on cars from another EU state ??? But it seems that this scheme is bringing millions of euros to the Gov so stopping it would be a huge loss to them - which I'm sure they get somewhere else otherwise. But the couple of times I bought my cars in the UK I paid the fees because it's the law - I really don't agree with it and it annoyes me each time I part with my hard earned money to pay the VRT but I do. So I don't see why many of us do while others get away with not paying.

I don't agree with the practice descrived in the article and would leave the garda and customs do their work but I'm sure they are other ways at their disposal to achieve the same without going to the extend listed in the article. Furthermore what about the genuine NI or UK driver who's only here for hols or a few days for business - how do you distinguish them ? the practice in the article - if followed by dealers - would increase admin time unnecessarily instead of time officers could spend on the road.

And to finish I just found out that if you import a car registered in another country pre July 1st 08 the VRT is based on the CO2 which is fine but the roadtax is based on the old CC scheme which is a lot more expensive if you buy a co2 friendly car - if the SIMI were truly serious about making steps to reduce our CO2 emission they would also based the roadtax on the CO2. So is that another money making scheme !!! did this go through the net or is it a mistake ???

Johnny Utah

parsi wrote: »

In what way ?

Any individual can copy down a bunch of regs and send them to the Guards, Revenue, Cartell or a little black book.

They are planning to collect information on private citizens (number plates, addresses, type of car etc), and then pass it onto government agencies. I assume they will be registering with the Data Protection Commissioner then as required by law....

Alun

Slaacer wrote: »

Personally I am against the VRT as i see it as a double tax. What other country still charges import duty on cars from another EU state ???

It's not an import duty, it's a registration tax (i.e. if you don't use the car on public roads, you don't pay it!), and by the way both Holland and Denmark do it as well, and at higher rates than Ireland (it's over 100% for luxury cars in Denmark IIRC). There may be others too, I seem to recall Malta had a pretty high one as well.

-Chris-

Johnny Utah wrote: »

They are planning to collect information on private citizens (number plates, addresses, type of car etc), and then pass it onto government agencies. I assume they will be registering with the Data Protection Commissioner then as required by law....

You don't need to register with the Data Protection Commissioner before calling the Garda confidential number to report a dangerous driver, how would this be any different?
They'll collect information in the public domain (e.g. the location and registration of a vehicle) and when they collate the information they'll pass it to the Revenue/Customs. They're not holding any sensitive or private information on any driver.
Legally I'd expect it's the motor equivalent of train-spotting...

crocro

Most european countries have VRT (16 out of 25). It is due to be abolished across the EU by 2016. Motor taxes will then probably go up a lot (usage based if possible).

Johnny Utah

AudiChris wrote: »

You don't need to register with the Data Protection Commissioner before calling the Garda confidential number to report a dangerous driver, how would this be any different?
They'll collect information in the public domain (e.g. the location and registration of a vehicle) and when they collate the information they'll pass it to the Revenue/Customs. They're not holding any sensitive or private information on any driver.
Legally I'd expect it's the motor equivalent of train-spotting...

Totally diffeerent scenario. One is a private citizen and the other is a corporate entity. That's the difference which means the latter is subject to the Data Protection Act. And, of course they are collecting private information.....

If such information is not so private, then why don't you ao anyone else post up details of their car/location here on boards....

And, that's leaving aside the fact that how would they know which cars are tourists, people kliving in the North etc. The SIMI should concentrate on getting their ow house in order and let the Guards/customs get on with their job.