What do you think of the transport budget?

BluntGuy

So, what do you think of the budget set out for transport:

This is what the budget website (http://www.budget.gov.ie) says:

Gross Expenditure for the Department of Transport in 2009 is €3,613 million, a decrease of €160 million (€6 million Current and €154 million Capital) relative to the 2008 forecast outturn. The key policy measures and adjustments associated with these resources in 2009 and later years are as follows:-

• capital expenditure of over €900 million is allocated to fund public transport infrastructure. This is about €70 million less than the amount made available in 2008, but it is sufficient for progress on a wide range of projects, including:
• Luas extensions to Cherrywood, Docklands and Citywest
• improved bus priority measures in Dublin and the regional cities
• the completion of the Midleton rail line and phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor from Ennis to Athenry
• the construction of the Kildare Route project and phase 1 of the Navan rail line
• the continuation of Iarnród Éireann’s railway safety programme
• the start of the Dublin city centre rail re-signalling programme
• continued roll-out of new railcars on the intercity routes
• planning and enabling works on Metro North, and
• planning works for the DART Interconnector;
• in addition, €338 million of current expenditure is provided for the operation of public transport services throughout the country. This is €6 million more than the 2008 provision.
• capital expenditure of over €1.4 billion is being made available to the National Roads Authority. This allocation is €157 million less than in 2008, and while progress on some projects will necessarily have to slow down, key national routes will be delivered as planned, specifically:
• the major inter urban roads connecting Dublin with the regional cities of Waterford, Galway, Limerick and Cork by end-2010;
• the M50 upgrade;

there will also be progress on other key national routes, including the Atlantic Road Corridor;

• over €600 million is being made available to local authorities throughout the country for the upgrade and maintenance of regional and local roads;
• capital expenditure of €10 million is provided for additional carbon reduction measures to target climate change initiatives in the transport sector;
• as a start to the Government’s commitment to part-fund a dual carriageway road within Northern Ireland transforming access to the North West of the island, a capital provision of €13.5 million is being made available in 2009 towards the planning works for this project;
• provision for Regional Airports is reduced by €13 million to €11 million in 2009. Annual provision for capital investment in the regional airports is decided according to estimates of likely drawdowns in the year for specific projects. This can vary from year to year;
• overall, the reduced capital allocation for transport will require some rescheduling of projects. Such decisions will be taken by the Department of Transport and its agencies on a project-by-project basis, taking account of their assessment of priorities within the revised expenditure envelope;
• the impact of the reduced current allocation is being spread across a number of areas and principally involves reduced expenditure on road maintenance.

I've posted an attachment with the breakdown of costs from their PDF file...

Chris_533976

Acceptable I think. It could have been a gutting, but I dont think it is. Although a lot of what they mention is stuff thats already under construction, they say there will be progress on the Atlantic Corridor, (ie N18 schemes and N17 to Tuam), which we knew about anyway.

So they dont seem to have been culled.

IMO it could have been a lot worse, so lets be thankful

lord lucan

i was expecting worse tbh. so it's acceptable in my book.

1huge1

I'm reasonably pleased, though curious about what there going to do with metro north, saying its still going to be planned etc just doesnt cut it for me.

ardmacha

There was also some mention of a levy on parking provided for employees in "urban areas", a rate of €200 was mentioned. This is a good idea in general, especially if it clearly applies to TDs etc it can garner support for other measures. However a flat rate is ridiculous, inside the canals in Dublin where all parking is expensive and public transport is effective should be different from the outskirts of towns where parking is not generally charged for and where there may be no sign of public transport.

dowlingm

pinch of salt obviously - it all depends on whether EU will allow a 6.5pc deficit to go forward or whether some cuts will fall post-budget. However, rail to Tuam is missing and so is Metrowest and LUAS Line F which is fine and might presage rethinks such as substitution of LUAS for metrowest since all it is is LRT anyway. The NRA cut is slightly deeper, at about 11-12%, than public transport which is 8-9%.

No mention of where the money to refurb the 48 Mk3s mentioned on etenders.ie comes from but perhaps that's a different envelope or expected from Translink as a quid pro quo for the dual carriageway money - ditto removing speed restrictions from the Nenagh line rather than have stock needed elsewhere beetling along at 25mph on a roundabout path into Limerick.

Hopefully we'll see stuff like Oranmore double track and Blarney in early 2010 with the aforementioned WRC projects etc. continuing to fall behind. My worry is that CIE property plays might not go ahead or realise the income they hoped, and that this will knock on to the share of project funds they were looked to for.

dowlingm

ardmacha wrote: »

However a flat rate is ridiculous, inside the canals in Dublin where all parking is expensive and public transport is effective should be different from the outskirts of towns where parking is not generally charged for and where there may be no sign of public transport.

Exactly - it should have been assessed as a BIK with rates assessed to local market rates for a car park parking space. This will create zonal effects where a business with 100 parking spaces pays 20,000 and a similar business down the street pays 0. Will this levy be payable for guest spaces, loading bays? They are doing what all central governments love to do - push an unpopular tax on local government rather than giving them access to progressive taxation.

spacetweek

Jesus man I thought it was going to be worse. Nothing is cancelled specifically. Metro North and IC are still being prepared, but they aren't supposed to start until early 2010 anyway, so no change there.

Loads of stuff listed which is already under construction - Luas, interurban motorways, etc. Basically they're saying they aren't going to cancel them,which they couldn't have done anyway. Yawn.

The only 2 things which will start that we weren't sure about is Navan Phase 1 (hadn't heard anything about that in ages, it's supposed to start by the end of the year) and city centre resignalling (thought that was already underway).

dowlingm wrote: »

Hopefully we'll see stuff like Oranmore double track and Blarney in early 2010

Isn't that all supposed to be ready by summer 2009?

Sorry; one more edit. I notice that Luas BX and D seem to be missing??

Amtmann

I'm quite happy. The Dept of Transport website maintains that most planned projects will go ahead; Transport got off lightly.

I feel bad because of more immediate concern is education etc., but long term, transport infrastructure is as essential, and good value is to be had now.

Spongebob: if you're there, what do you make of this? I think the Atlantic Corridor will go ahead.

But the absolute priority is rail and public transport in general. Metro, Interconnector, commuter rail projects, more busses and LUAS seem to be covered. Ergo, I'm happy.

gjim

This is not bad at all. I really feared the worst given that capital expenditure is the easiest politically to ax.

Sponge Bob

Lots of it has been cancelled.

This evenings radio news ( either Newstalk or RTE) confirmed that

1. N18 Gort-Athenry
2. N11 Arklow-Rathnew
3. N21 or N22 ( dunno) Castleisland Bypass
4. N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton

are all cancelled .

At least the Galway Bypass was not mentioned or the N18 Gort Crusheen stretch .

As for the N17 Tuam Road , that cannot possibly commence before 2015 at this rate , better hope that the Claregalway bypass is finished by 2011 then

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Lots of it has been cancelled.

This evenings radio news ( either Newstalk or RTE) confirmed that

1. N18 Gort-Athenry
2. N11 Arklow-Rathnew
3. N21 or N22 ( dunno) Castleisland Bypass
4. N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton

are all cancelled .

At least the Galway Bypass was not mentioned or the N18 Gort Crusheen stretch .

As for the N17 Tuam Road , that cannot possibly commence before 2015 at this rate , better hope that the Claregalway bypass is finished by 2011 then

Interesting. No mention of a DOOR either. Roads-wise, Galway to Cork is more important that a Castleisland Bypass.

BluntGuy

In the area of roads funding - virtually all of the national road Exchequer provision for 2009 is already contractually committed to the delivery of the projects on the Major Inter Urban routes. The NRA expects that six major projects, totalling 143 km of dual carriageway road, will open to traffic between now and the end of 2009. These are:

• The N4 Lucan By Pass Upgrade
• The N6 Athlone to Ballinasloe
• The N7 Nenagh to Limerick
• The N8 Cullahill to Cashel
• The N8 Fermoy to Mitchelstown, and
• The N9 Waterford to Knocktopher.

Well, here's what I think for 2009:

M8 - Cullahill - Cashel - 40 km - Q4 2008
M8 - Fermoy - Mitchelstown - 16 km - Q2 2009
M7 - Nenagh - Limerick - 38 km - Q2 2009
M9 - Waterford - Knocktopher - 24 km - Q3 2009
M6 - Athlone - Ballinasloe - 20 km Q4 2009
M3 - Clonee - Kells - 47 km - Q4 2009
M25 - Waterford City Bypass - 23 km - Q4 2009

I make that a good 208 km... (although I'm doubtful enough about the M25 - methinks I'm being a bit too hasty).

As well as M50 Phase 1 and N4 Lucan By-pass upgrade.

Sponge Bob

Yes Bluntguy . These are all projects under construction with signed contracts and due to complete in or before 2010

In 2009 only the N18 Gort-Crusheen will be started ( seemingly ) so what will the Motorway Construction budget be like in 2011 when the money is to be paid over , a pittance I should think ??

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well, here's what I think for 2009:

M8 - Cullahill - Cashel - 40 km - Q4 2008
M8 - Fermoy - Mitchelstown - 16 km - Q2 2009
M7 - Nenagh - Limerick - 38 km - Q2 2009
M9 - Waterford - Knocktopher - 24 km - Q3 2009
M6 - Athlone - Ballinasloe - 20 km Q4 2009
M3 - Clonee - Kells - 47 km - Q4 2009
M25 - Waterford City Bypass - 23 km - Q4 2009

I make that a good 208 km... (although I'm doubtful enough about the M25 - methinks I'm being a bit too hasty).

As well as M50 Phase 1 and N4 Lucan By-pass upgrade.

Question for those that know:

Say the Cashel to Cullahill scheme comes in 6 months early and in budget, and the Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme does likewise (plus a few other interurban projects); what becomes of the unspent money? Does it go back to Finance or does the NRA hold onto it?

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Yes Bluntguy . These are all projects under construction with signed contracts and due to complete in or before 2010

In 2009 only the N18 Gort-Crusheen will be started ( seemingly ) so what will the Motorway Construction budget be like in 2011 when the money is to be paid over , a pittance I should think ??

But the roads budget is only down 7% on last year's figure. Can you explain where the allocated sum for 2009 will go? Bear in mind that many of those started projects are coming in before time and under budget. Where does that money go? I'm just wondering because you said the NRA's budget would be "filleted" by Finance, but it's only down by 7%. That still leaves the NRA with a lot of dosh.

BluntGuy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Yes Bluntguy . These are all projects under construction with signed contracts and due to complete in or before 2010

In 2009 only the N18 Gort-Crusheen will be started ( seemingly ) so what will the Motorway Construction budget be like in 2011 when the money is to be paid over , a pittance I should think ??

Well, pretty bad I'd imagine...

2009 and 2010 are going to be great years for motorway openings, so the government can make it look as though we're making "progress".

Of course when the 405 km of motorway that is under construction at the moment is done, what will they use then to show they've made progress?

Metro North?

Interconnector?

Metro West?

All of those aren't due to be open until at LEAST 2014. So basically, after the inter-urbans are done, the government will have pretty much next to nothing to show for improvements in transport.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

But the roads budget is only down 7% on last year's figure. Can you explain where the allocated sum for 2009 will go? Bear in mind that many of those started projects are coming in before time and under budget. Where does that money go? I'm just wondering because you said the NRA's budget would be "filleted" by Finance, but it's only down by 7%. That still leaves the NRA with a lot of dosh.

I'm not sure about that. I don't think road projects are paid for in one go...

They have to be continually financed. I'd imagine a large chunk of money is going toward keeping the road projects moving forward.

But if that's the case, then surely there is room in the budget for at least two or three new schemes to start after some of the projects due to be completed next year have finished.

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

No mention of where the money to refurb the 48 Mk3s mentioned on etenders.ie comes from but perhaps that's a different envelope or expected from Translink as a quid pro quo for the dual carriageway money - ditto removing speed restrictions from the Nenagh line rather than have stock needed elsewhere beetling along at 25mph on a roundabout path into Limerick.

Hopefully we'll see stuff like Oranmore double track and Blarney in early 2010 with the aforementioned WRC projects etc. continuing to fall behind. My worry is that CIE property plays might not go ahead or realise the income they hoped, and that this will knock on to the share of project funds they were looked to for.

Presumably the costs of the refurbishment of the six sets will be met from the proceeds from the sale of the remainder of the Mark 3 fleet and the proceeds from the scrapping of other coaches/locomotives.

The Nenagh line is to be upgraded to 60mph, funded from the ongoing Railway Safety Programme as included in the budget, which is also funding the other lines.

There are no plans to double Athenry-Galway, albeit something that would greatly facilitate improvements on the Dublin-Galway route as well as WRC services, so I'm not sure where that's coming from? What has been mentioned is extending the existing loop out of Galway for a short distance.

dowlingm

KC61 wrote: »

There are no plans to double Athenry-Galway, albeit something that would greatly facilitate improvements on the Dublin-Galway route as well as WRC services, so I'm not sure where that's coming from? What has been mentioned is extending the existing loop out of Galway for a short distance.

Possibly a misunderstanding on my part - I guess Oranmore is as good as it gets then. It may be that they decide to shuttle the WRC service to Athenry and turn it back, relying on ramped up Athlone-Galway running to carry passengers the rest of the way?

marmurr1916

Not as bad as it could have been!

It seems likely that various planned major improvements by the NRA will be put on the long finger: dualling of the N4 from Mullingar to Longford; the northern part of the Atlantic Corridor (Galway to Letterkenny/Derry); Cork NRR; dualling of N28 (Cork - Ringaskiddy) and some N24 improvements.

At least the MIU routes will be fully completed and it looks likely that the Galway - Limerick dual-carriageway will be completed.

I'd also expect the M20 to continue since it'll be several years before construction can begin anyway.

Assuming similar cuts in 2010 and 2011, some projects will be delayed by several years but I'm still optimistic that the NRA's programme will be achieved by 2015.

At that stage, Ireland will have one of the best primary route networks in Europe.

If we can follow that up with a similar level of improvements to the national secondary and regional road networks then we'll have one of the best road networks in the world!

Chin up folks! It's nowhere near as bad as it could have been.

monument

spacetweek wrote: »

Luas BX and D seem to be missing??

The Minister said today at the transport briefing BX won't be build until after Metro North is finished (the RPA on the other hand have recently been quoted saying BX would be built at the same time as the Metro).

On Metro West and the Lucan Luas, to paraphrase, planning them keeps on going, the decision to go ahead or not doesn't have to be made yet.

Nostradamus

Acceptable. Was expecting much worse.

However, I would worry about the Interrconector and Metro if this engineered world banking false crisis digs in deeper which I expect it will.

Having Frank McDonald using the Irish Times to wage his personal crusade against standard gauge rail based public transport constantly could seriously damage the Metro North which would provide the perfect excuse to kill the Interconnector as well, as the excuse for the Interconnector not bring integrated would be made by the politicians.

Hence why I consider Frank McDonald beyond a doubt the most dangerous entity among the media chattering classes for rail transport now and into the future. Frankie is far too thick and ignorant to realise that he is drowing the Interconnector along with his propganda war against the RPA.

So the transport budget is acceptable to me, but far from optimistic. Too many outside influences which can destroy the metro and Interconnector projects.

BluntGuy

monument wrote: »

The Minister said today at the transport briefing BX won't be build until after Metro North is finished (the RPA on the other hand have recently been quoted saying BX would be built at the same time as the Metro).

On Metro West and the Lucan Luas, to paraphrase, planning them keeps on going, the decision to go ahead or not doesn't have to be made yet.

Metro West might as well be chucked in the bin until they decide whether it's a metro or a luas.

As for the Lucan Luas, the QBC will suffice for the moment.

MN and Interconnector must be built on target.

An approximate start-date for the M20 is needed by the end of next year.

Various other road schemes must complete their planning stages so that they are ready to build without delay when the cash is available.

Irish and Proud

Furet wrote: »

Question for those that know:

Say the Cashel to Cullahill scheme comes in 6 months early and in budget, and the Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme does likewise (plus a few other interurban projects); what becomes of the unspent money? Does it go back to Finance or does the NRA hold onto it?

In my estimation, the payments would have to be accelerated, so I don't think the amount of money involved for any one project would change much. If the state agrees a fixed price with a contractor, that's the price that's paid regardless of whether the road concerned is behind or ahead of schedule, or whether it's under or over budget.

Hope this helps!

jd

I presume earliest commencement date for rathnew-arklow is 2010

jlang

According to the radio news at 7pm, 6 road schemes are to be delayed including the Newlands Cross upgrade.

Sponge Bob

jlang wrote: »

According to the radio news at 7pm, 6 road schemes are to be delayed including the Newlands Cross upgrade.

I mentioned that news segment earlier here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57576635&postcount=11

Can you remember or confirm any of the other projects explicitly listed for the record ??

A ' delay' outlined in a 2009 budget briefing means 2010 earliest jd , yes !

Bluntguy , further up this page , lists the MIU projects that will likely be completed in 2009 . Many are completing earlier than their 2010 target and must therefore be paid for in 2009 .

Even if no projects start during 2008 or 2009 there still remains a contracted pipeline of about €1.5-€2bn of spending falling due in 2010 .

These include M50 north and south segments, M7/M8 west of Portlaoise, M6 Galway - Ballinasloe , Limerick Tunnel, M7 east of Nenagh , M9 north of Carlow .

No road projects are being constructed where monies will fall due in 2011 or therafter.

The pipeline has been emptied after 2010 in effect .

I very much doubt that any substantial money on the scale of recent years will be found for roads during the next 5 years unless someone can maybe point me to some pot of it I have somehow overlooked ???

BluntGuy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I mentioned that news segment earlier here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57576635&postcount=11

Can you remember or confirm any of the other projects explicitly listed for the record ??

A ' delay' outlined in a 2009 budget briefing means 2010 earliest jd , yes !

Bluntguy , further up this page , lists the MIU projects that will likely be completed in 2009 . Many are completing earlier than their 2010 target and must therefore be paid for in 2009 .

Even if no projects start during 2008 or 2009 there still remains a contracted pipeline of about €1.5-€2bn of spending falling due in 2010 .

These include M50 north and south segments, M7/M8 west of Portlaoise, M6 Galway - Ballinasloe , Limerick Tunnel, M7 east of Nenagh , M9 north of Carlow .

No road projects are being constructed where monies will fall due in 2011 or therafter.

The pipeline has been emptied after 2010 in effect .

I very much doubt that any substantial money on the scale of recent years will be found for roads during the next 5 years unless someone can maybe point me to some pot of it I have somehow overlooked ???

The money has already been set aside for the projects under construction.

It would be foolish and costly to abandon those projects in the middle of construction.

And also, if there is a decrease in expenditure of 7% in transport, I don't see how that is going to bring all the under-construction schemes to a screaming halt.

I do believe that all projects under construction will be completed.

But I don't think any significant new road projects will be starting before 2011.

jlang

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Can you remember or confirm any of the other projects explicitly listed for the record ??

I'm not sure I do remember correctly, but this is what I think I heard..

N11 Rathnew-Arklow
Castleisland Bypass
Longford Bypass (I didn't know there was another one on the cards)
Gort to somewhere (didn't catch which direction)
N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton
Newlands Cross

I've looked around, but can't find a primary reference for this list, only the radio report.

Typewriter

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Lots of it has been cancelled.

This evenings radio news ( either Newstalk or RTE) confirmed that

1. N18 Gort-Athenry
2. N11 Arklow-Rathnew
3. N21 or N22 ( dunno) Castleisland Bypass
4. N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton

are all cancelled .

At least the Galway Bypass was not mentioned or the N18 Gort Crusheen stretch .

As for the N17 Tuam Road , that cannot possibly commence before 2015 at this rate , better hope that the Claregalway bypass is finished by 2011 then

Ah feck.

Trampas

Been devils advocate here

Surely roads can be built cheaper now than they were a few years ago as thousands of construction people looking for jobs thus will take a job for less money than was on when working.

In turn should drive down the cost for building roads/train lines/luas/metro

I have no idea how much builders get/got paid. Sure it varied a lot

Zoney

Furet wrote: »

Interesting. No mention of a DOOR either. Roads-wise, Galway to Cork is more important that a Castleisland Bypass.

It's quite possible Castleisland has more traffic than the ~10K AADT traffic mid N20 or N18. It is a traffic disaster. Similarly, on the N21, the heritage town of Adare currently has dual-carriageway level volumes of traffic passing through (~20K AADT).

Much as being in Limerick I agree the N18 and N20 need upgrading.

markpb

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but the budget doesn't matter a damn to (public) transport in Ireland. What matters are ministers getting up of their collective behinds and making it happen. How long has Metro North or Dash 2 been delayed? Until public transport becomes a voting issue, they can 'allocate' all the money in the world to projects but they won't happen or will happen at dead-snails pace.

paulm17781

I thought we had it on good authority that MN was canceled. :rolleyes:

So far it seems pretty good, I was expecting the usual delays / cancellations. Nothing too bad.

serfboard

Wearing my parochial hat, I'm glad that Gort-Crusheen will start next year. Not too surprised that Gort-Athenry will not start as Gort-Oranmore is in a better condition. Would obviously love the M17/Tuam bypass to start, but have postponed my expectations till another 3 or 4 years.

Am disappointed that Galway-Athenry will not be double-tracked. I don't expect Athenry-Tuam WRC to ever happen, and am not convinced about its viability anyway, as it won't bring people to where they work (Ballybrit/Parkmore).

Taking off said parochial apparel, I'm also disappointed that Arklow-Rathnew will not be happening - on the grounds of joining up the dual-carriageways certainly, but mainly on the grounds of safety. Dick Roche obviously doesn't have much clout. Am also disappointed that the M20 between Mallow and Croom will be left as the same dirt-track that it is.

I'm obviously glad to see works continuing on the WRC/KRC and Luas extensions, but apart from that, there will be no major rail delivery for the next few years. We need more QBCs until then.

dublinhead

Trampas wrote: »

Been devils advocate here

Surely roads can be built cheaper now than they were a few years ago as thousands of construction people looking for jobs thus will take a job for less money than was on when working.

In turn should drive down the cost for building roads/train lines/luas/metro

I have no idea how much builders get/got paid. Sure it varied a lot

Yeah you would think so. And the price of buying the land to build the roads must have also have fallen alot.

dowlingm

Trampas wrote: »

Surely roads can be built cheaper now than they were a few years ago as thousands of construction people looking for jobs thus will take a job for less money than was on when working.

You'd think, wouldn't you? People have gotten used to a certain standard of living, a lot of it based on credit. They don't really have a plan B which involves a pay cut so the unions demand the line be held but in reality that means that any workers trying to get into the workforce will be shut out because fewer projects can be commenced.

BluntGuy

dowlingm wrote: »

They don't really have a plan B...

I think that sentiment accurately applies to the government when it comes to pretty much EVERYTHING...

The Lisbon treaty...

The economic downturn (whether or not based on external factors)...


The government's transport 21 plan was based on a projected growth of 4.2% for five years.

What a stupid thing to have done. How can you project economic growth based on an unsustainable property bubble?

They were basically expecting the money to keep rolling in, and they had no contigency measures in place to deal with a downtown...

They gave many people false projections for economic growth, and therefore many people are feeling very dissappointed that we can't fufill all the projects they promised us.

It's painful to say it: but MN, Interconnector and many of the road projects were planned under totally unrealistic economic expectations. I would not be surprised to see indefinate deferral on many of them (as sad as that makes me feel).

The first casualty will be the M17 scheme, followed by Metro West...

Sponge Bob

BluntGuy wrote: »

The first casualty will be the M17 scheme, followed by Metro West...

The government will not cancel them outright but I agree that there is now very very little chance that the M17 will be complete by 2020 and I would think that Lucan Luas and Metro West will be similarly kicked to touch in Dublin .

There will be no outright cancellations of any projects until after the local elections in May 2009.

The back of my envelope says that the only road projects for which funding will be found between now and 2015 are the N18 / N20 and N11 .

As for rail I would think one of MN or the "DUNG" Project as it is charmingly referred to within the department of Finance will be started .

dowlingm

Metro North is a stand alone project. An important stand alone project, but that's the reality at present. Killing interconnector forces total revision of the medium term plans for the Northern, Maynooth, Bray and Kildare lines. If there are cuts, Metro North should be the one to bear them, for now.

Mayo Exile

From yesterdays Irish Times (15 October):

THE MINISTER for Transport has listed six road projects that have been deferred for at least a year. He said it had been hoped that the Arklow to Rathnew road in Co Wicklow would start at the end of next year but it would now be 2010 - "and that is not absolute".

The other projects he said would be "rescheduled" were:

• the N5 bypass of Longford;

• the N21 road at Castleisland in Co Kerry;

• the N25 Carrigtwohill to Midleton road in Co Cork;

• the N18 Gort to Oranmore road;

• the reconstruction of Newlands Cross in south Dublin.

There is no provision for:

• significant numbers of new buses for Dublin Bus;

• the Leinster outer orbital motorway.

Link: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1015/1224020736479.html

Seems the Lisbrack Road will remain as the unofficial "N5 bypass" of Longford Town for the foreseeable future then............

Nostradamus

dowlingm wrote: »

Metro North is a stand alone project. An important stand alone project, but that's the reality at present. Killing interconnector forces total revision of the medium term plans for the Northern, Maynooth, Bray and Kildare lines. If there are cuts, Metro North should be the one to bear them, for now.

Nope. Lucan Luas, MetroWest and the WRC should be put on hold.

MN is a vital component of the Interconnector and vise-versa. Both projects have a symbiotic relationship to each other and need to go ahead at the same time.

L1011

jlang wrote: »

I'm not sure I do remember correctly, but this is what I think I heard..

N11 Rathnew-Arklow
Castleisland Bypass
Longford Bypass (I didn't know there was another one on the cards)
Gort to somewhere (didn't catch which direction)
N25 Carrigtwohill Midleton
Newlands Cross

I've looked around, but can't find a primary reference for this list, only the radio report.

Plan is to re-bypass with a dual carriageway and I believe link the N5 on to this to take it out of the town centre. Or "plan was" now.

Newlands being postponed = more years of hell, more years of mass traffic pollution from stationary cars...

scab-e

From today's Irish Times:

Dempsey defends practicality of Metro North
MICHAEL O'REGAN
MINISTER FOR Transport Noel Dempsey strongly defended the Government's proposed north Dublin metro line linking the airport and Swords to the city centre.

"The investment involved in Metro North should not be considered in the light of the 30-year period during which we will pay for it under the public-private partnership, but in the light of the fact that the system will serve the needs of the people for 50 or 100 years," he said.

Mr Dempsey said that he had heard much "ignorant comment" about Metro North and questions as to why buses should not be acquired.

"To do what we want with Metro North, that is, to move approximately 20,000 passengers in each direction during peak travel times, we would have to invest in approximately 400 to 500 buses," said Mr Dempsey.

"There would not be sufficient road space to do so." In opting for a Luas solution, as some people were advocating, the maximum number of passengers accommodated would be about 8,000 per hour at peak time.

"Given that the population is to grow by approximately 500,000 . . . by 2015-16, a Luas or totally bus-based system of public transport in the north county Dublin area is a nonsensical proposition," said Mr Dempsey.

The Minister said that the Railway Procurement Agency, which was responsible for the project, had applied last month to An Bord Pleanála for a railway order for Metro North.

The application clearly set out the route alignment, underground and surface sections and station locations, he said. The public-private partnership tenders were due to be submitted to the agency in early February.

Once the procurement and the statutory approval processes were completed, the Government would make a final decision.

"This is a long-standing requirement for all very large projects under Transport 21," he added.

Mr Dempsey said that next year's estimates included substantial funding provision for those works.

...
© 2008 The Irish Times

paulm17781

Noel Dempsey is my least favourite politician (after Enda Kenny). I quite like what he's said above. I'm impressed.

What I don't like is "Once the procurement and the statutory approval processes were completed, the Government would make a final decision."

serfboard

paulm17781 wrote: »

What I don't like is "Once the procurement and the statutory approval processes were completed, the Government would make a final decision."

Translation: "Fingers crossed it'll be alright on the night, and we'll have a bit of oul' cash by then. That, or I won't be Minster of Transport at that stage, so I won't care."

scab-e

paulm17781 wrote: »

What I don't like is "Once the procurement and the statutory approval processes were completed, the Government would make a final decision."

They can't commit to build it no matter what the cost. The cost will only be known once the tenders come in. It's expected to be about 170m/year for 30 years but who knows what the different groups will bid?

It's a fantastic project and a real long term investment of state money unlike most state spending that is flushed away and forgotten.

SeanW

Well, the Metro North and the Interconnector in particular are IMO Priority One projects - better rail transport infrastructure is needed to bring Dublin's transport network out of the dark ages. I was happy to see that some committment is left to it in the budget, though talk is cheap.

jlang wrote:

Longford Bypass (I didn't know there was another one on the cards)

Yes there was, the N5 wasn't covered in the original Longford Bypass and as a partial result the town now has an epileptic traffic problem.
The N5 bypass project called for a measly 2.6km of single carriageway from a point just beyond the town on the existing N4 to the existing N5.
I cannot believe this is to be delayed, and as for the Mullingar-Tomiskey dual carriageway, there was already significant talk of doing that on the cheap with a 2+2 at grade "dual carriageway" which as far as I know was only to advance through regulatory procedures next year.
Talk of delaying these projects is a slap in the face to this area which has recieved miniscule levels of road investment over the last 10-odd years. I know they had to do the major Interurban motorways first (Dublin to the Border, Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford) but I never understood that to mean "do the Interurbans and screw everyone else."

I had a feeling something like this would happen, though it can be accepted. But since Dublin is very much the economic engine of Ireland, I do think it's important that MN and the Interconnector go ahead to allow the city to have something resembling a 1st world infrastructure. Even then it would be somewhat off but still much better.

paulm17781

scab-e wrote: »

They can't commit to build it no matter what the cost. The cost will only be known once the tenders come in. It's expected to be about 170m/year for 30 years but who knows what the different groups will bid?

No doubt. As I keep bringing up here though, remember in 2002 how we had Prof. Mellis come over twice to tell us how to get it done quickly and cheaply (24 hour tunnelling etc., not just talking about building it for 7 years) perhaps if we'd actually do the things we asked him to tell us about, it'd be done.

BluntGuy

I read in either today's Times or Examiner (can't remember which) that both MN and Interconnector will see progress made this year.

Good...

As for the other projects, well:

Lucan Luas and MW should not even be considered as ingredients for this year's transport recipe.

Focus needs to be given to the projects that will the most advantageous to us...