Educate Together, opinions?

bombjack2

I have a two year old, and am considering pre-enrolment in an Educate Together primary school.

I like the idea a multi-denominational and inclusive ethos, but I have reservations about sending my child to a school different than that of other kids that live on the same street.

Interested to hear peoples opinions on this, anyone have children of their own in Educate Together schools?

Thanks

andrewh5

bombjack2 wrote: »

I have a two year old, and am considering pre-enrolment in an Educate Together primary school.

I like the idea a multi-denominational and inclusive ethos, but I have reservations about sending my child to a school different than that of other kids that live on the same street.

Interested to hear peoples opinions on this, anyone have children of their own in Educate Together schools?

Thanks

Educate together is IMHO the best way to educate children. Religiously segregated schools merely create in groups and out groups and foster divisions within society.

Ludo

andrewh5 wrote: »

Educate together is IMHO the best way to educate children. Religiously segregated schools merely create in groups and out groups and foster divisions within society.

While I have nothing against Educate Together schools, I think the above statement is a complete generalisation. Traditional schools certainly do not foster divisions within society. Each has it's own advantages and to say a school type in this day and age does harm is just wrong.

This probably isn't the best place to ask this kind of question in fairness. By the very nature of boards.ie, you are going to get a lot of anti-religion people on here and therefore you will get a skewed response. Do your own research. Yes, take on board any responses here but under no circumstances base your decision on it alone.

deisemum

I think all types of schools have their good and bad points. It would be naive to think otherwise. Also think a school irrespective of it's ethos is generally only as good as the Principal and BOM running it, along with the support of teachers and parents.

A school can have all the policies in the world and claim to have an inclusive ethos but in reality it's not always followed through in individual schools.

If you like the ethos of an Educate Together school and it ticks all the boxes for you then don't let the fact that the neighbouring children attend a different school put you off.

bombjack2

Thanks for the replies

Ludo wrote: »

This probably isn't the best place to ask this kind of question in fairness. By the very nature of boards.ie, you are going to get a lot of anti-religion people on here and therefore you will get a skewed response. Do your own research. Yes, take on board any responses here but under no circumstances base your decision on it alone.

I am not very religious myself, but I don't want that fact to cloud my judgement, the local catholic school is actually very highly thought of in the area.

Because of this, I would need to have good reasons to go for the Educate Together option, which is why I would love to hear from people that have experience of their own children, nieces, nephews etc that go to these schools.

lostinnappies

I have nothing against any type of school ... it all depends on the teacher. But i do think that 2/3 even 4 is too young to be confusing different religions. They are just starting out in life learning to deal with other children, different set of rules, learning and (its just my opnion) I believe that adding another topic might confuse them. I would think it would be a great idea for older children to specifically talk about and meet other children from different religions and countries.

Nevyn

Ludo wrote: »

This probably isn't the best place to ask this kind of question in fairness. By the very nature of boards.ie, you are going to get a lot of anti-religion people on here and therefore you will get a skewed response. Do your own research. Yes, take on board any responses here but under no circumstances base your decision on it alone.

I do think that the demographic of most boards users would be anti Church rather then anti religion.

I am not anti religion at all and think that religion classes have a place in school but not religious indoctrination. Children should learn a little about all religions but that their personal spiritual growth and religious indoctrination should be done at home and in church and not in schools.

That being said due to the fact there is not a E.T. school close enough my two non christian kids are in a catholic school, which has had it's own trails and issues over the years and I really think that we should as per the constitution cherish all our children equally and no parent should have to wipe away tears and have to comfort and console their child after they have
nightmares due to being told in class and being teased in the yard that they are going to hell and so is thier Mammy and Daddy cos they didn't get them baptised.

So should you send you child to an E.T school, well what is your stance on
religion classes and religious instruction/indoctrination in class ?
How far away is the school ?
What are the school's enrolment policy and rules and discipline structures ? Do you agree with them ?
Have you gotten feedback about the school from anyone ?

With your child not being in the same school as most of the kids on the road it will afford them a chance to have two sets of friends which can be a good thing and it means what ever happens in school won't spill over on to the road and vice versa.

Give the choice between two equal schools I would personally prefer an E.T.
school as I prefer the ethos and how invovled the parents are and are encouraged to be.

You will also find info here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1022
in the primary and pre school forum.

Ludo

Thaedydal wrote: »

I do think that the demographic of most boards users would be anti Church rather then anti religion.

Fair point...I assume you mean anti-catholic church?

Thaedydal wrote: »

That being said due to the fact there is not a E.T. school close enough my two non christian kids are in a catholic school, which has had it's own trails and issues over the years and I really think that we should as per the constitution cherish all our children equally and no parent should have to wipe away tears and have to comfort and console their child after they have
nightmares due to being told in class and being teased in the yard that they are going to hell and so is thier Mammy and Daddy cos they didn't get them baptised.

That is disgraceful but as someone mentioned earlier comes more down to individuals rather that it being a "religous" school. I went to Presentation Brothers schools and never came across anything like you describe. I am by no means religous (cant remember when I went to mass last) but I still have the utmost respect for them and would not hesitate to sent my kids to a school run by them. Parents were also heavily involved in the running of the school (and this was 20 years ago).

Thaedydal wrote: »

So should you send you child to an E.T school, well what is your stance on
religion classes and religious instruction/indoctrination in class ?
How far away is the school ?
What are the school's enrolment policy and rules and discipline structures ? Do you agree with them ?
Have you gotten feedback about the school from anyone ?

Fully agree with all this bar the "indoctrination" comment. That straight away is implying there is something wrong with the methodology and that there is fomr form if brain-washing almost going on. Simply not the case unless you get a bad individual teacher which can happen in any school.

Mena

Op, our daughter is in an E.T. school and we think they're amazing for what it's worth.

Nevyn

I don't think it is to do with the teacher but rather that teacher is impressing on young and impressionable minds that 2+2=4 is a fact and then Jesus is the son on the only God as fact in the same day, which if all fair enough if every child in the class is catholic and thier parents agree with it but that tends not to be the case with how the schooling system is set up.

Schools can vary in how relgious and secular they are even with the same ethos or relgious order running them.

larbis

why don't you visit all the schools you're interested in and meet the teachers etc? Then you'll be able to make an informed decision about what is best for YOUR child:)

As for Educate Together, I think a lot of people make a mistake focusing on the religious (or lack of!) aspect and that really is the smallest part of the ethos of the schools. The main focus is in child-centered learning and inclusivity. I think they're great!

Hotblack Desiato

It's unfortunate imho that the only alternative to denominational is multi-denominational rather than non-denominational. We should have schools free of religion entirely and let parents/communities/churches make arrangements in their own time and with their own money for religious instruction if they wish.

As it is, in our area we only have only one or other christian school to choose from. It's like making a veggie choose between eating pork or beef (yes, you can take the child out of religion class, but - to continue the analogy - that's like handing the veggie a steak dinner and telling them to just leave that part if they don't want to eat it.)

lostexpectation

religious schools fester differences in any age ludo.

Nevyn

ninja900 wrote: »

It's unfortunate imho that the only alternative to denominational is multi-denominational rather than non-denominational. We should have schools free of religion entirely and let parents/communities/churches make arrangements in their own time and with their own money for religious instruction if they wish.

That is what happen with the multi-denominational schools, the RE program teaches the children a little bit about all religions but religious instruction is
done by parents and what ever religious community the child is part of.

barbiegirl

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't think it is to do with the teacher but rather that teacher is impressing on young and impressionable minds that 2+2=4 is a fact and then Jesus is the son on the only God as fact in the same day, which if all fair enough if every child in the class is catholic and thier parents agree with it but that tends not to be the case with how the schooling system is set up.

Schools can vary in how relgious and secular they are even with the same ethos or relgious order running them.

If you don't like the ethos of the school don't send your kids there. More and more non religious schools are springing up around the country you have a choice, even in small towns. However if like my sis-in-law you want your kids to go to a Catholic run school because she judges it the best in the area, but still insists on giving out about religion being taught in the school, it's like trying to have your cake and eat it.

Nevyn

barbiegirl wrote: »

If you don't like the ethos of the school don't send your kids there.

It's not that simple it was then there would not be as much trouble over primary school as there is in this country, the model being used is flawed and the government has not lived up to it's obligations and a charity has had to step in and do so.

If there was a multidenominational school with in a reasonable distance then my kids would be in it, but there is not. Yes thankfully there are more multidenominational schools there is no such things as a non religious school in this state, but there are not enough for them to be option for every parent.

barbiegirl wrote: »

However if like my sis-in-law you want your kids to go to a Catholic run school because she judges it the best in the area, but still insists on giving out about religion being taught in the school, it's like trying to have your cake and eat it.

If denominational schools will take in children who are not of that faith to claim the grant for that child from the dept of education then they have a responsiblity to educate that child in an inslusive manner and take into consideration that the child is not of that faith and make provisions.

Ludo

lostexpectation wrote: »

religious schools fester differences in any age ludo.

Care to expand on that? I am not sure what you mean by making such a statement as fact without explaining it more.

Sleepy

I'm firmly of the belief that the nation's schools should be completely free of religion so if there's an educate together, or preferably a fully secular, school available for my daughter in 4/5 years time she'll be going there.

It's an absolute disgrace that in a 'developed' country we still leave education so largely under the control of religious orders.

di11on

Agree completely.

We've had our chance - we've had 10 years of economic prosperity to get ourselves out of this embarassing dependence on a religious order to subsidise our educational system. Now it's gone and the wealth has been squandered.

In other countries symbols of religious affiliation are banned. In this country, the state tolerates priests in the classroom telling kids they're going to hell unless they are baptised.

Utter madness.

Nevyn

Sleepy wrote: »

preferably a fully secular, school available for my daughter in 4/5 years time she'll be going there.

I really think that is doubtful.
There was to be a once off V.E.C. primary school in D15 but then the dept of education caved and asked the Bishop to take it on as patron.

Sleepy wrote: »

It's an absolute disgrace that in a 'developed' country we still leave education so largely under the control of religious orders.

It's historic legacy and a government unwilling to make the changes and take the responsibility.

mountainyman

In Northern Ireland ET has a laudable goal; to break down divisions between communities.

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

It is about snobbery an elitism.

mountainyman

di11on wrote: »

Agree completely.

We've had our chance - we've had 10 years of economic prosperity to get ourselves out of this embarassing dependence on a religious order to subsidise our educational system. Now it's gone and the wealth has been squandered.

In other countries symbols of religious affiliation are banned. In this country, the state tolerates priests in the classroom telling kids they're going to hell unless they are baptised.

Utter madness.

Yeah getting the religious out of health care has worked a treat!!!
I am reporting this post as it is a lie. Priests do not tell children they will go to hell unless they are baptised.

Nevyn

mountainyman wrote: »

In Northern Ireland ET has a laudable goal; to break down divisions between communities.

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

It is about snobbery an elitism.

Nope.
It is about multi denominational ethos of the school.
If the local school was secular then you might have a point or if all the E.T. schools were in well heeled leafy surburbs but they are not.

lostinnappies

mountainyman wrote: »

Yeah getting the religious out of health care has worked a treat!!!
I am reporting this post as it is a lie. Priests do not tell children they will go to hell unless they are baptised.

Actually they do. I have numerous priests and nuns tell me and the whole class when i was at school that you can not enter heaven unless you get baptised and that the only other place for you was hell. Its not been long since the last time I heard a nun say that.

Talliesin

mountainyman wrote: »

In Northern Ireland ET has a laudable goal; to break down divisions between communities.

No it doesn't. It has a goal of educating children.

mountainyman wrote: »

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

What, the working class should just roll over and take it up the ass from the Churches some more?

Not everyone from a working class background is a scumbag. We don't all spend our days wondering where we can nick our next flagon of cider from. We have a right to a bloody education system in the Republic of Ireland that is run by the people of Ireland.

ET's crap in a lot of ways, but at least some people are trying to do something. And some of them are working class, despite how thinking they are all sheep might ease your bourgeois self-satisfaction.

Why not try letting someone mention Educate Together without engaging in yet another anti-Working Class rant.

larbis

Talliesin wrote: »

ET's crap in a lot of ways

In which ways? (Not trying to stir it up - genuinely curious!)

Talliesin

Actually, I will retract that. I've been less than impressed by a couple of things, but they're things that can happen in any school, rather than anything to do with ET, and I prefer not to get into them as they involved other people and I'd rather not.

deisemum

One of my friend's who helped set up their ET school has told me a number of things that goes on in their school that are anything but inclusive.

My friend is poor and the principal sent a letter home to her requesting an appointment so that she could tell my friend to tell her children that they were not to ever mention that they are poor as it unsettles the children of those with more money.

No such thing as telling those children to not mention where they go on their foreign holidays, their horse riding lessons, etc that it may unsettle those who are not well off.

Hotblack Desiato

deisemum wrote: »

My friend is poor and the principal sent a letter home to her requesting an appointment so that she could tell my friend to tell her children that they were not to ever mention that they are poor as it unsettles the children of those with more money.

That's a disgrace, even in a country where it is just accepted that education is riddled with snobbery and disadvantage.

Did your friend just accept this, or complain to board of management / ET themselves?

deisemum

ninja900 wrote: »

That's a disgrace, even in a country where it is just accepted that education is riddled with snobbery and disadvantage.

Did your friend just accept this, or complain to board of management / ET themselves?

She didn't accept it but pointed out to the principal that her children should not be made feel uncomfortable because they were poor, that she was trying to teach her children that they can't have everything they want just because most of the class have something and that she was not going to get into further debt trying to keep up with others.

In fairness to my friend's children they know their parents cannot afford things and they don't ask.

babyboom

My daughter goes to the local Catholic school and my son goes to an ET school. I can state categorically from my experience with both schools that there is definately an air of snobbery surrounding the ET school. I also feel that my daughter is receiving a much higher standard of education. Her school is much stricter on discipline and you can see it in the behaviour of the children compared to the behaviour of those in my son's school. I may have to take my son out for a few years as he is dyslexic and may have to go to a specialist school for help, and I'm tempted to send him to a different school afterwards, but I know it would greatly upset him so I'm loathe to do it.

I'd also like to dispell this myth of religious run schools shoving religion down kids necks. My daughter has one religion class a week for an hour. My son has one religion class a week after school for an hour.

Nevyn

So you daughters school doesn' do a pray to start and end the day, grace before and after lunch, or any religious art projects or religious themed homework ?

If you have issues with the disapline at your son's school have you brought it up at a board of management meeting ?

Can not enough supports for his dyslexia not be put in place in his current school ?

mountainyman

Talliesin wrote: »

ET's crap in a lot of ways, but at least some people are trying to do something. And some of them are working class, despite how thinking they are all sheep might ease your bourgeois self-satisfaction.

Why not try letting someone mention Educate Together without engaging in yet another anti-Working Class rant.

That's no what I meant but I congratulate you for making your point so forcefully.

babyboom

Dyslexia is not considered a learning disability by the Dept of Ed so he is only entitled to Learning Support, not resource teaching and he only gets learning support if he scores less than 13% at the end of year tests. He has a very severe form of dyslexia and the school are just getting nowhere with him, although they tell me they're making progress, I know from his work at home that he is lost. Sorry for going off topic, just answering your question.

In my daughter's school it really depends on the teacher whether they say a prayer in the morning or not but really religion is not "shoved down their throats" as seems to be the impression out there.

bombjack2

Thanks for all the replies,

Some very useful information

Will be paying the school a visit over the next couple of days, hopefully its not too late to register as there seems to be a big demand for ET at the moment.

Dades

bombjack2 wrote: »

Will be paying the school a visit over the next couple of days, hopefully its not too late to register as there seems to be a big demand for ET at the moment.

I called them a few weeks back to ask when should I be putting my 7 week old daughter's name down - and was told immediately!

That's not to say you'll definitely have trouble. Make sure you call in and good luck.

di11on

mountainyman wrote: »

Yeah getting the religious out of health care has worked a treat!!!

The state should not be dependent on religious orders to provide and/or subsidise essential public services. If this is not the case, something is terribly wrong. People should have the choice to have an education with a religious ethos, but it is not the job of the state to provide it. The state has a resposibility to provide public services. Dependence on religious orders for funding in key public services is a ridiculous scenario and no civilised country should be in this position.

mountainyman wrote: »

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

This is a lie. In fact, it is the exact opposite in my case. I am not catholic. I want my children to go to the local state run national school. If it happened that places were over subscribed, my children would be denied a place because of their religion. This is in the state run school. It's outright descrimination.

mountainyman wrote: »

I am reporting this post as it is a lie. Priests do not tell children they will go to hell unless they are baptised.

I was educated in our local national school. I was told this.

larbis

I have recently been involved in the set up of an ET school. The local primary schools in my area are over subscribed I couldn't even get my son into one as he is not christened. One of the local C of I schools wouldn't even let me register

I thought that an ET school would be great, provide diversity of education where I live and I love the ethos. I was gobsmacked when someone told me recently that ET schools are seen as snobby and exclusive as my experience has been the complete opposite.

As a non religious, lone parent family ET were the only ones who welcomed us with open arms and never made me feel judged..

I don't understand all this anti-ET stuff at all and it makes me wonder who the judgemental ones really are

Talliesin

mountainyman wrote: »

That's no what I meant but I congratulate you for making your point so forcefully.

Well, what do you mean. This is the third anti-Working Class rant of yours I've seen when ET has come up.

stovelid

mountainyman wrote: »

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

I'm from a so called working class background and I'm currently involved in an ET start-up group. As somebody else has pointed out, this is the kind of sh*te you get from people who expect people from particular backgrounds to roll over and desist with their airs and graces. The people involved in the start-up group are from a very mixed class background, if you feel the need to categorize people in that way.

We have the right to choose an education for our children that does not involve the church. Just as I respect the wishes of parents who want their children to have a catholic eduction. And as for priests, nuns and brothers imparting scare tales about hell, baptism, and what not: I went to school in the 80s and this was most definitely the case.

Son of Jack

Dear Larbis,

I have read your posts over the past year about the establishment of an ET school in Greystones. I am very glad to hear that you and your son are happy with the education received in the new ET. Congratulations and well done.

I have always supported both the establishment of the new ET and Gaelscoil in the area, as you said, the schools in the locality were over subscribed. Also I support diversity.

Up to this point your posts were always informative and fair. However I must take issue with what you have said on this thread as our experience has been very different.

- My children are not baptised. When we applied to enrol them in one of the Catholic primary schools we were asked to provide either a baptismal cert OR a birth cert. No hardship, they had certainly been born and registered!

- ET, as admirable as their ethos is, do not have the monopoly on being child centred or inclusive. Surely a school that was not child centred would be an anomaly.

In my children's time in school our decision not to have them baptised has never been an issue.

The school is inclusive. They are at school with children of different religions and none, children from different family backgrounds and ethic origins.

- It is only a small point but there is only one C of I school in Greystones. The other one is in Delgany. Both are small schools and are always over subscribed and difficult to get into. Both I know are very civilised, inclusive and child centered environments.

Other posters, who in support of ET schools throw mud at the 'religious' ones do no service to what they claim is the 'better way'!

To the OP good luck in your decision. An earlier poster put it well when they said it depends on the individual school. Schools can be good, bad or indifferent and this does not necessarily depend on their ethos or their patron. What would suit you might not suit another! Each to their own!

what2do

An interesting point I heard recently about ET schools is that most are so new that they are still finding their feet and are so busy being "inclusive" that sometimes the eduacation can suffer??

This is just an opinion I heard and was interested what people think?

Nevyn

Start up school alwasy have teething problems no matter who is thier patron.

Son of Jack

From what I hear of ET, Greystones ... it's all good!

stovelid

what2do wrote: »

An interesting point I heard recently about ET schools is that most are so new that they are still finding their feet and are so busy being "inclusive" that sometimes the eduacation can suffer??

So, every other primary school in the country is a shining centre of excellence purely by dint of not having to waste time on being inclusive?

ArthurDent

mountainyman wrote: »

In Northern Ireland ET has a laudable goal; to break down divisions between communities.

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

It is about snobbery an elitism.

And yet Educate Together has by percentage more schools with Disadvantaged status that any patron body

Also looking at where the new Educate Together schools opened last year -
Belmayne- Dublin 13 Educate Together National School
Carlow Educate Together National School
Carrigaline Educate Together National School
Aston Gate Educate Together National School (Drogheda North)
Greystones Educate Together National School
Lucan/ Clonburris Educate Together National School
Maynooth Educate Together National School
Midleton Educate Together National School
Skerries Educate Together National School
South Galway Educate Together National School (Kilcolgan- Clarinbridge)
Thornleigh Educate Together National School (Swords)
Wexford Educate Together National School

D'ya really reckon they're all bastions of middle class?

To the OP truthfully asking here for an opinion on ET schools won't tell you anything about the particular ET school you could send your child to - it'll attract the usual pro/anti arguments . Go and visit the school - talk to people in your area, see the principal. There are some great ET schools, there are some that are not so good - just like any type of school.

ArthurDent

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm firmly of the belief that the nation's schools should be completely free of religion so if there's an educate together, or preferably a fully secular, school available for my daughter in 4/5 years time she'll be going there.

It's an absolute disgrace that in a 'developed' country we still leave education so largely under the control of religious orders.

just wondering what would fully secular mean - no discussion of any religions, no mention of any of the cultural aspects of religion that are prevalent in most peoples lives (whether they are religious or not) = no celebration of christmas, easter, divali, eid or whatever your'e having yourself...:)

I totally support the removal of teaching ANY religious doctrine as truth but am very happy to have my kids told about different faiths and reaaly don't see how religion can be removed totally as it is culturally v improtant to most people

I went to the very first ET School, DSP, I have to say it was fantastic, we learned about, and celebrated, all kinds of religion, which broadened our minds, I went to after school classes for catholic studies.

I just think it's a great way to teach kids, it's very group orientated, no rows of tables, and they learn things that aren't on the curriculum which is great, it also allows children to learn to their own ability, so that if your child is more advanced, they're not held back, and if your child needs more help, they are not left behind.

I would be all for it!

Son of Jack

Whoopsadaisydoodles, great you had such a good experience at school. I did too and I went to a single sex school run by a religious order.

Group work, encouraging the bright children and supporting the less academic all appear to be part of the New Curriculum which operates in schools up and down the country, regardless of patron.

Cantab.

Educate together school = definite no-no in my opinion. My relationship with God is the most important relationship in my life. I want my children to experience the same.

AFAIC, educate together schools (well-meaning as they are), are breeding grounds for moral and religious relativism.

My experience with Catholic schooling has been wholly positive.

deisemum

Deleted User wrote: »

I just think it's a great way to teach kids, it's very group orientated, no rows of tables, and they learn things that aren't on the curriculum which is great, it also allows children to learn to their own ability, so that if your child is more advanced, they're not held back, and if your child needs more help, they are not left behind.

I would be all for it!

That's the same sort of experience my children have at their local catholic school. Most of the teachers do a lot of extra things that aren't on the curriculum and even though it's a catholic school they are taught a bit about other religions, possibly not quite as much as in a ET school.

It's great too that we don't have to fundraise apart for the christmas school raffle and the proceeds are used to pay for coaches to all the different sporting and outings they go on.

We only have to pay €7.50 contribution to cover arts and crafts and photocopying. The school has exceptional facilities and it's difficult to get a place.