Carzone.ie: breaching Irish law?

Rebelheart

Hi.

I purchased an ad for my car on carzone about a year ago. The advert made it clear that for the €30 I could keep my ad on carzone until the car was sold. The car is not sold yet, but carzone this week will not allow me to renew the advert as I have been doing on a monthly basis since I first purchased it. Carzone.ie is now demanding a fee for a renewal despite the condition under which I first purchased the ad specified that I would not have to pay an additional renewal fee for that ad.

Is anybody else now experiencing this, and is there anything that can be done?


PS: I rang and emailed Carzone.ie for the past week but they have still refused to return the call/email. (not sure where to put this but I posted it under Consumer Issues and then noticed this 'Motors' section. Delete as appropriate)

Seth Brundle

Can you please post the terms and conditions that you agreed to?
I'd be surprised if there wasn't a get out clause or two in there to protect them!

TommyT

You`ve had your car for sale for a year? Maybe carzone have done you a favour. You could think about adjusting the price.

Car-dealer

Hi

You purchased a service - ie free car add for as long as it needs to sell! You paid your money, you should get the service advertised!

No matter what the carzone people, or people on here, say.

My advice - write a letter to the Financial Ombudsman making a complaint.

There are laws that protect consumers from changes in terms - even if the small print says "terms can change at any time"

Take it further with the Financial Ombudsman and others.

Good luck - I think I might do the same, as they have done the same to me with prices.

smash

Car-dealer wrote: »

There are laws that protect consumers from changes in terms - even if the small print says "terms can change at any time"

Take it further with the Financial Ombudsman and others.

Good luck - I think I might do the same, as they have done the same to me with prices.

I've just had a look there and I don't think you'd have a case really... you can't complain when the bus/dart/luas fares go up, it's a service you pay for and costs rise every year for any services or businesses wouldn't survive!

"6. Advertising charges
6.1 The Publisher shall have the right to change its scale of charges at any time"

Anan1

kbannon wrote: »

Can you please post the terms and conditions that you agreed to?
I'd be surprised if there wasn't a get out clause or two in there to protect them!

I'm in the same situation myself. I paid for the car to be advertised until sold. They've been renewing it FOC for the past six months, now they've removed the 'renew for free' button from the website and they're neither taking nor replying to my calls.

-Chris-

I'm with TommyT. If you get them to quash the new fees and continue to give you your ad for free, the saving that you make each month will be far outweighed by the depreciation your car is suffering every month.

If you haven't sold your car in a year, your price is too high or your ad is terrible.
If you're serious about selling your car, you need to drop your price rather than going to Ombudsmen etc.
If you're not serious about selling your car and you just have it up for a price you like and you're hoping someone eventually thinks it's a good idea to buy it, please take it down.
Carzone is full of so much overpriced rubbish nowadays that it's becoming less and less useful as a selling tool.

Just because it's free doesn't mean you should do it.

Anan1

AudiChris wrote: »

I'm with TommyT. If you get them to quash the new fees and continue to give you your ad for free, the saving that you make each month will be far outweighed by the depreciation your car is suffering every month.

If you haven't sold your car in a year, your price is too high or your ad is terrible.
If you're serious about selling your car, you need to drop your price rather than going to Ombudsmen etc.
If you're not serious about selling your car and you just have it up for a price you like and you're hoping someone eventually thinks it's a good idea to buy it, please take it down.
Carzone is full of so much overpriced rubbish nowadays that it's becoming less and less useful as a selling tool.

Just because it's free doesn't mean you should do it.

These are all fair points, AudiChris. None of them, however, change the fact that I paid for my car to be advertised until sold.:)

-Chris-

And I feel for you and I hope Carzone plan to give improvements in service that result in better prices and faster sales for all their customers in return for the higher price they're charging.

Steve06's link shows they've covered their arses.

All that being said (and we've discussed this before), if it takes you more than a month or two to sell your car, then there's a bigger problem than the monthly renewal fee...

copacetic

steve06 wrote: »

I've just had a look there and I don't think you'd have a case really... you can't complain when the bus/dart/luas fares go up, it's a service you pay for and costs rise every year for any services or businesses wouldn't survive!

"6. Advertising charges
6.1 The Publisher shall have the right to change its scale of charges at any time"

yep, but I think you would have a good case if you bought a luas ticket from Sandyford to Stephens green for €2 and at dundrum they stopped and asked you for another €2 to complete your journey. That is the equivalent to the OPs situation.

Raising prices is fine for a new ad, not for renewal of a current ad that was advertised taken out under certain conditions.


This is all being driven by a big drop off in second hand sales. Cars are spending 6 or 7 months on carzone and never selling, they
are trying to make money off the back of that. Imo it is car dealers who are the leaders in this, people price often based on what
dealers have up and they are still trying to catch the odd sucker.

After todays budget there will be an even greater fall in sales. Personally I've been looking for over 6 months and cars had almost
reached a reasonable price imo, but I'll probably be 200 a month after today.

Anan1

AudiChris wrote: »

Steve06's link shows they've covered their arses.

I'm no lawyer, but I don't think it does. I paid my money on the basis that they would advertise the car until sold. No amount of small print can change this simple fact.

@steve06 - Out of interest, are you quoting carzone's current T&Cs, or those in force in April, ie the ones Rebelheart and myself signed up to?

I.S.T.

steve06 wrote: »

I've just had a look there and I don't think you'd have a case really... you can't complain when the bus/dart/luas fares go up, it's a service you pay for and costs rise every year for any services or businesses wouldn't survive!

"6. Advertising charges
6.1 The Publisher shall have the right to change its scale of charges at any time"

That does not apply. You've quoted the current terms. The terms the OP signed up to stated that his car would remain on the site until sold. OP, try writing a letter to carzone. If you get no satisfaction contact small claims court.

I.S.T.

copacetic wrote: »

yep, but I think you would have a good case if you bought a luas ticket from Sandyford to Stephens green for €2 and at dundrum they stopped and asked you for another €2 to complete your journey. That is the equivalent to the OPs situation.

Raising prices is fine for a new ad, not for renewal of a current ad that was advertised taken out under certain conditions.

Exactly

Steve

I think the cause of all this is the dealers that are advertising there. Instead of taking out new ads when they sell, they edit the details and put another car up - thereby effectively getting free advertising.
I'd say carzone is trying to put a stop to this and if complaints from a few users is the only side effect then it's worth it from their point of view.

fm

i had a van for sale on it since march and was renewing it for free every month until recently when they told me there werent doing van sales anymore

Darragh29

Car-dealer wrote: »

No matter what the carzone people, or people on here, say.

We'll make our own decision on that when we have a chance to see the contract information/terms & conditions, if the OP can share this with us, thank's very much! :rolleyes:

copacetic

copacetic wrote: »

yep, but I think you would have a good case if you bought a luas ticket from Sandyford to Stephens green for €2 and at dundrum they stopped and asked you for another €2 to complete your journey. That is the equivalent to the OPs situation.

Raising prices is fine for a new ad, not for renewal of a current ad that was advertised taken out under certain conditions.

+1

or another way to look at it if you paid your insurance for the year and then for no reason a couple of months into the policy the insurance company rings you up and demands more money or your policy will be canceled.

smash

Has the op actually spoken to anyone in Carzone or has he just sent emails and left voice mails?

Darragh29

Anan1 wrote: »

I'm no lawyer, but I don't think it does. I paid my money on the basis that they would advertise the car until sold. No amount of small print can change this simple fact.

@steve06 - Out of interest, are you quoting carzone's current T&Cs, or those in force in April, ie the ones Rebelheart and myself signed up to?

I agree with Anan. Under this clause, if you accept that it is enforcible, then Carzone could come back at you, (even if they allowed you to renew your ad for free until the car was sold), and say, "No, subject to our term that we can change our price at any time, it's no longer 30 Euro, it's now 300 Euro, so we want another 270 Euro or we'll take you to court for it".

Clearly the terms & conditions at some point become binding and fixed in terms of what is undertaken for the price quoted. I think this happens when payment is made.

If you paid now, and the terms and conditions now are that you cannot renew for free until your car is sold, fine. But if they have previously taken money off you on the basis of a different undertaking, then in my mind it is that undertaking that you have paid them for and that remains the case until they have discharged that undertaking, which in your case is allowing you to advertise your car until it is sold...

bustershark

It appears that CBG are not charging for private sales.
Reckon it' a response to the carzone change?

-Chris-

Yes, but isn't what's happening that:

OP signed up for the service that included free renewals.
Carzone changed their pricing structure and advised that, in order to renew the ad for next month there'll be a pricing change.
Carzone haven't said that they're owed anything for previous months - the increase isn't retrospective.
Anyone who's posted on here that they've queried the pricing change with Carzone has said that Carzone capitulated and let them continue with the ad for free.

So:
a) if the OP talks to Carzone then the situation will probably fix itself
b) because the ads are renewed on a monthly basis, are we sure that you're not entering into a new agreement every month rather than extending the agreement you previously had in place?

Biro

AudiChris wrote: »

Yes, but isn't what's happening that:

OP signed up for the service that included free renewals.

No, he signed up for a service to advertise his car "Until it is sold". That used be what was on Carzone, therefore that's what he paid his money for. Changing conditions is only from now on. Using the luas price increase as an example, you buy your yearly travel card in January, so now you can travel as much as you like for the year. However, in February they say "price increase, your travel card is now useless till you give us more". That can't be done.

AudiChris wrote: »

Carzone changed their pricing structure and advised that, in order to renew the ad for next month there'll be a pricing change.

That would be fine if they said "Advertise your car for €30 and get free renewals!"
They didn't, they said "until the car is sold". The car is not sold. Renewals or no renewals, that was the agreement.

AudiChris wrote: »

Carzone haven't said that they're owed anything for previous months - the increase isn't retrospective.
Anyone who's posted on here that they've queried the pricing change with Carzone has said that Carzone capitulated and let them continue with the ad for free.

So:
a) if the OP talks to Carzone then the situation will probably fix itself
b) because the ads are renewed on a monthly basis, are we sure that you're not entering into a new agreement every month rather than extending the agreement you previously had in place?

smash

Either way... he's been selling his car for a year so there's something not right there!

De Hipster

The link to the Terms & Conditions provided relate to Dealerships, as per the heading: "Car Dealership Terms & Conditions".

Also, the terms and conditions on Carzone are not dated & were updated in April of this year, therefore may have changed since you bought your ad. This would suggest that you should be entitled to maintain the T&Cs of your original contract with them, assuming the ad has not been allowed to lapse?

If you have the original T&Cs you, may have a case for both Ombudsman & on Trade discriptions...good luck proving it through

Darragh29

bustershark wrote: »

It appears that CBG are not charging for private sales.
Reckon it' a response to the carzone change?

CBG only have a small segment of the market, they haven't anywhere near the number of cars that Carzone & Autotrader have...

Climate Expert

Terms and conditions aside the sale was based on a rolling free renewal. If you can't get that then you are due your money back. You will probably have to hit small claims for this which will set you back €15.

If they don't reply I would go down this route out of principle.

cbyrne

I got an interesting call from carzone yesterday, cold call looking for me to take out a new ad with them (I have an existing ad there for a few months) but they were cross selling carzone and autotrader. Now, one thing i also preferred about carzone was they never cold called, unlike CBG who basically put me off every advertising on their site/mag, they rang everyone on carzone and buyandsell touting their site and I got so sick of telling them not to ring me. Now I'm really p**sed off that carzone are doing the same thing. Honestly, its almost like they are trying to loose business. First price increases, then no ad renewals, now cold calling.. what next?

I also find it interesting that we all go on about carzone having all the market and sure they're the one to use given the high volume etc. and all the dealers are locked into them - but if the ordinary person like us stopped using them i'm pretty sure the dealers would too once the traffic started descreasing. We all need to vote with our feet and start using the other just as good if not better sites out there. Carzone have it too easy in my opinion, in fact they don't ever seem to even bother advertising as we are all 'drawn to it' like moths to a lightbulb!!

I say break the carzone cartell

-Chris-

OP, how hard did you really try to investigate this query before you posted here??


I just contacted Carzone via telephone (during lunchtime, no less). It was answered by a chap called David in 3 or 4 rings, he was able to confirm over the phone that anyone with an ad that was put up before the pricing change will remain under their original agreement. All they need to do is contact Carzone and they'll have their account/ad amended to the original terms and conditions.

Please phone them at 01 449 0650 and put this thread out of its misery...

galwaytt

OP is right - I too have a car on Carzone for a very long time.

When they made the first set of changes earlier in the year, we understood renewals were no longer free of charge.

However, and I'm going to look at home this eve, my old ad, being placed before the new rules, continued to be listed and renewed, f.o.c. I paid for an ad 'until sold'. That is the T & C I bought the ad under.

However, this latest change attempts to stop that practice, and I've emailed them twice inside the last 3 weeks about it - to no avail.

And this is all down to the new owners, Autotrader. 'sfunny how autotrader's site also started acting funny at the same time. I've just retested it now - if you type autotrader.co.uk, you get redirected to niautotrader.co.uk - they are obviously using IP's to determine, and so control traffic from Ireland. At the very least, it's cynical, stupid, even commercially asanine............at the most, I wonder if ComReg have anything to say on the issue if IP manipulation.........??

And AudiChris, anyone can sell something in a month if you give it away. That's not selling, that's liquidation. Length of time an ad is there is entirely dependant upon, in my case, the vehicle. I know that it was advertised for a full year by the dealer before I bought it, so I'm not buy a simplistic 'you're price is wrong' from anyone....

Oh, and I've rang that no - it rang 15 times, and went to VM, so we'll see....btw, vm announces that it's home to trader, carzone and webzone.

Yep, new blood needed to liven things up, methinks.

smash

galwaytt wrote: »

I wonder if ComReg have anything to say on the issue if IP manipulation.........??

Thousands of sites redirect based on IP, including google! It's not "IP manipulation", it's a redirect and it's up to the site to decide where it wants to send it's surfers.
:rolleyes:

-Chris-

Jaysus, seems like there's a lot of tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theorists out there today...

smash

tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theorists that can't read... as you already pointed out the solution.

Anan1

AudiChris wrote: »

OP, how hard did you really try to investigate this query before you posted here??


I just contacted Carzone via telephone (during lunchtime, no less). It was answered by a chap called David in 3 or 4 rings, he was able to confirm over the phone that anyone with an ad that was put up before the pricing change will remain under their original agreement. All they need to do is contact Carzone and they'll have their account/ad amended to the original terms and conditions.

Please phone them at 01 449 0650 and put this thread out of its misery...

I called and was told the same thing last week, posted as much here. I've tried to call them on five separate occasions today, and left three messages. Yesterday I called three times, left two messages- still no response. Given that they've removed the free renewal button from their website, the only way to renew FOC now is to phone them. And they're not proving easy to get on the phone. You've always seemed like a very reasonable guy to me, AudiChris, I don't know why you're finding it so difficult to get your head around this?:)

Run_to_da_hills

I can under stand Carzones concern over repeated adds, You could get some smart dealer using the one add incert to flog off a fleet of the same model of car.

-Chris-

I have my head around it, as far as I can tell anyway.

I'm more concerned with the "Carzone is ripping us off with this revision of terms and I'm calling the ombudsman about it" sentiment.
We thought that Carzone were unfairly increasing their charges to existing customers without any negotiation.
But then again you, among others, have already said in other threads that Carzone haven't revised the terms for ads created under the old terms. I've confirmed this by phone today and also mentioned it in post 21 of this thread, prior to phone confirmation.

Seems like they've been pretty fair in the way they've implemented these increased charges and as I said above, I hope the end user gets an improved service in return for the increased rates (i.e. it shouldn't be a mere revenue generation measure).

I have issue with:
a) someone trying to sell their car for over a year insisting that their car should be listed for free into infinity. Yes it's possible, but is there any point?
b) the assertion that Carzone have changed the t&c's on the pre-April ads when they clearly haven't.
c) the assertion that Autotrader is using some mind control techniques to divert unsuspecting shoppers to their local Autotrader website and maybe it should be reported to ComReg.

Phew... good to get that off my chest

Anan1

AudiChris wrote: »

I have my head around it, as far as I can tell anyway.

I'm more concerned with the "Carzone is ripping us off with this revision of terms and I'm calling the ombudsman about it" sentiment.
We thought that Carzone were unfairly increasing their charges to existing customers without any negotiation.
But then again you, among others, have already said in other threads that Carzone haven't revised the terms for ads created under the old terms. I've confirmed this by phone today and also mentioned it in post 21 of this thread, prior to phone confirmation.

In principle, they're not. What they have done, though, is remove the facility for online FOC renewals. This, coupled with a recent reluctance to either answer the phone or return calls means that they are, in fact, 'unfairly increasing their charges to existing customers without any negotiation.'

AudiChris wrote: »

I have issue with:
a) someone trying to sell their car for over a year insisting that their car should be listed for free into infinity. Yes it's possible, but is there any point?

surely that's for the paying customer to decide?

AudiChris wrote: »

b) the assertion that Carzone have changed the t&c's on the pre-April ads when they clearly haven't.

The T&Cs stated that I could renew FOC until the car sold. How can I do this when they've removed the facility to do it online and they won't answer the phone?

AudiChris wrote: »

c) the assertion that Autotrader is using some mind control techniques to divert unsuspecting shoppers to their local Autotrader website and maybe it should be reported to ComReg.

I'm happy to concede this one.:)

-Chris-

Anan1 wrote: »

In principle, they're not. What they have done, though, is remove the facility for online FOC renewals. This, coupled with a recent reluctance to either answer the phone or return calls means that they are, in fact, 'unfairly increasing their charges to existing customers without any negotiation.'

Anan1 wrote: »

The T&Cs stated that I could renew FOC until the car sold. How can I do this when they've removed the facility to do it online and they won't answer the phone?

Poor customer service is a different issue. They should be answering their phones...

Is it possible that their software won't run two pricing plans for private customers simultaneously? Maybe their "renew online FOC" button caused problems with their "renew for a fee" button and so they manually have to amend the accounts of the advertisers who put up ads before April?

This would certainly explain the difficulty in getting through to them, there must be a MASSIVE amount of ads that need manual changing.

Someone should get on and get an answer to this, sort the issue out once-and-for-all.

Anan1 wrote: »

surely that's for the paying customer to decide?

Yes, but I'm still allowed to think it's pointless. Everyone's a winner!

Anan1 wrote: »

I'm happy to concede this one.:)

:D:D

Rebelheart

TommyT: 'You`ve had your car for sale for a year? Maybe carzone have done you a favour. You could think about adjusting the price.' and AudiChris: '... if it takes you more than a month or two to sell your car, then there's a bigger problem than the monthly renewal fee...'

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact- as many people have pointed out- that I purchased a service on the condition that the car could be renewed every month until it was sold. The withdrawal of that facility after I had paid my money was, clearly, the issue.


Thank you to Copacetic, Car-dealer, Anan1, Nox001 and Biro for grasping this.


Steve06:

'Has the op actually spoken to anyone in Carzone or has he just sent emails and left voice mails?'

Why should the onus be suddenly placed on me, when they have changed the agreement by removing my ability to renew my ad? In fact, they sent me an email informing me that my advert will expire. They then added:"'If you have not sold your vehicle yet, you can extend your advertisements run by logging into your ‘My Adverts’ section and clicking ‘Rebook this Advert’".

I went there and they told me I was being charged if I pressed 'Rebook this Advert'. The only choice was to press that or to not have my advert renewed. There was no alternative to renew for free as had been the case. Free phone renewals were not mentioned, or anything like it on the link. My attempts to contact by email and phone for well over a week were not responded to/answered, and my advert was running out. I then posted here.

Rebelheart

Finally, this morning I got through to somebody, who happens to have been called David (how many people work in customer service, and is it a deliberate attempt to make one give up and pay online for a renewal?), and he renewed it for me.
Had they informed me near the 'Rebook this Advert' link that I could maintain my free renewals by ringing them, there would be no problem. They did not, and my many attempts to contact the company were not answered and therefore there was a problem. Anyway, they probably did get a good few more sales out of this shyster move.

unkel

Rebelheart wrote: »

Had they informed me near the 'Rebook this Advert' link that I could maintain my free renewals by ringing them, there would be no problem. They did not, and my many attempts to contact the company were not answered and therefore there was a problem.

Exactly. They directed people by email to renew online (which was not possible) while in fact it was only possible by phone (but the lines were busy and nobody rang back)

Serious mistake by carzone.ie imho.

Anan1

I got David too. He was most apologetic, said that henceforth I could only renew FOC by phone and that they had been inundated with calls since the new website was introduced. Shortly afterwards, I got an email from carzone confirming what David had told me.

davecomedy

Hi,

Just saw your posts about carzone's site, i had a similar-ish problem with them, except i bought a car from a second hand dealer, ended up almost dien from the car been dodgy, contacted carzone to take the dealer off,as the were similar reports about the guys, and they never got back to me.

Madness!

Barr

I've left 8 messages this week and no one has ever contacted me back - their service is gone to crap.

Does anyone know if you can renew on the old pricing system by email or does it have to be on the phone ?

Anan1

Barr wrote: »

I've left 8 messages this week and no one has ever contacted me back - their service is gone to crap.

Does anyone know if you can renew on the old pricing system by email or does it have to be on the phone ?

Maybe read the thread?;)

Chonker

Barr wrote: »

I've left 8 messages this week and no one has ever contacted me back - their service is gone to crap.

Does anyone know if you can renew on the old pricing system by email or does it have to be on the phone ?

This guy was very helpfull the last time they did it to me.

--edit: personal details removed--

Hope that helps

smash

davecomedy wrote: »

Hi,

Just saw your posts about carzone's site, i had a similar-ish problem with them, except i bought a car from a second hand dealer, ended up almost dien from the car been dodgy, contacted carzone to take the dealer off,as the were similar reports about the guys, and they never got back to me.

Madness!

What's that got to do with renewing private ads... oh and when you buy something.... "buyer be ware!"

Seth Brundle

Chonker wrote: »

This guy was very helpfull the last time they did it to me.

--edit: personal details removed--

Hope that helps

I removed the details of your contact as I'm not convinced that they are currently publicly available!

galwaytt

AudiChris wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the "Carzone is ripping us off with this revision of terms and I'm calling the ombudsman about it" sentiment.

Glad to hear you're sorted, anyway. Meanwhile those of us with - binding - legal agreements to list our car until sold are still swinging in the wind. I've now rung that phone you've listed several times, email twice more, and they're dodging. That is sharp practice.

I have issue with:
a) someone trying to sell their car for over a year insisting that their car should be listed for free into infinity. Yes it's possible, but is there any point?

Irrelevant. They entered into a legal contract.

b) the assertion that Carzone have changed the t&c's on the pre-April ads when they clearly haven't.

Well actually, that is not yet proven. They are not returning calls, not answering emails, so constructively, they have changed the T & C's by removing the ads in question and conveniently not making themselves available to 'relist' the old ads.......this, again, is sharp practice.

c) the assertion that Autotrader is using some mind control techniques to divert unsuspecting shoppers to their local Autotrader website and maybe it should be reported to ComReg.
Phew... good to get that off my chest

It must be great to be perfect. In your (as previously stated by you) busy job of never taking more than a month to sell a car, some of your deposit cheques get redirected in the mail, I'm quite sure you'll still have to change your opinion. Or maybe if your i.d. and account details get stolen on some 'banking' website, will you still be as smart, then ?

Seth Brundle

Just out of curiosity, do you have a copy of the contract that you entered into?

galwaytt

kbannon wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, do you have a copy of the contract that you entered into?

Text from an email , when it came to the end of the first period:

xxx xxx,

Your advertisement for a xxxxx (ref. xxxx) is due to
expire in 7 days. If you would like to extend your
advertisement's run, please log in to My Carzone and click 'Renew this ad.'
There is no charge for renewals.

Esel

steve06 wrote: »

tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theorists that can't read... as you already pointed out the solution.

Can't read black-on-black, maybe! AudiChris: what were you thinking? :eek: