Are you gonna march on wednesday 22nd October?

Epic Tissue

yes/no

SU Email wrote:

A week from wednesday, there is a march organised for all Dublin colleges to protest against the proposed
reintroduction of third-level fees. In the past two months the government have mentioned fees, a loans system
and seriously incresing the registration fee-all of which are fees under different names. This is unacceptable
and will undermine peoples right to education as well as cutting off access to higher education to those that
can't afford the ridiculous proposed 'fees'.
We will meet in front square at 1.40pm on wednesday 22nd October, join with the other colleges outside front
gate and march to the Dáil. PLEASE come along and show your support. In 2002 we defeated fees and we CAN
do it again if we have the numbers. Above all else, it'll be great fun to have thousands of students out marching!

When/what/where/which/who?

Epic Tissue

Edited first post now

Fad

depends how the budget turns out, if fees are reintroduced i will march, if they arent i frankly couldnt give a fook

PurpleFistMixer

Fad wrote: »

depends how the budget turns out, if fees are reintroduced i will march, if they arent i frankly couldnt give a fook

It's probably not going to be decided in this budget, so if they're not brought in immediately it's possible they'll still be on the cards.

Fad

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

It's probably not going to be decided in this budget, so if they're not brought in immediately it's possible they'll still be on the cards.

Yeah, i probably should be more clear about my views on it, i clearly dont think fees are in anyway a valid solution to the financial crisis, and i am wholeheartedly against the reintroduction, also i misread the post, i thought the march would be the day after tomorrow not Wednesday week, anyway, depends really, if im free, the homework situation, i have more imeediate concerns as selfish as it may sound (and it is sort of a concern cos my sister still has to get in after me)

leninbenjamin

f*ck no.

probably because I agree with the reintroduction of fees anyway

Mark200

No


One thing I wouldn't understand if fees were introduced,they'll apparently base it on the amount of income the student's family/parents earn.

But how can they do they when the majority of incoming students will be 18 or over, the government can't expect all those parents to pay for their children's education.

Peslo

Is it true that all Class Reps must attend??

Mark200

Peslo wrote: »

Is it true that all Class Reps must attend??

Not sure

Peslo

Mark200 wrote: »

Not sure

Can somebody clarify this? ?sounds like a loada BA but I heard if the majority of the class wants to, then ya have to go as CR.

Stargal

Apparently the budget is going to increase the registration fee to at least €1500 per year, rather than directly bringing back fees.

If this happens then the march would have an added impetus for going ahead; it would mean that all students not receiving a grant will have to pay €6000 over the course of their undergrad education, which is very different from the spectre of fees reintroduction where it was only going to be students of families earning over €100k/€150k.

Ron DMC

Stargal wrote: »

Apparently the budget is going to increase the registration fee to at least €1500 per year, rather than directly bringing back fees.

If this happens then the march would have an added impetus for going ahead; it would mean that all students not receiving a grant will have to pay €6000 over the course of their undergrad education, which is very different from the spectre of fees reintroduction where it was only going to be students of families earning over €100k/€150k.

We'll see in twenty minutes.

Stargal

Ronny Mitchell wrote: »

We'll see in twenty minutes.

Yep, should be interesting.

Économiste Monétaire

Stargal wrote: »

Apparently the budget is going to increase the registration fee to at least €1500 per year, rather than directly bringing back fees.

It has been raised to €1500.

Stargal

The actual wording says:

"Third level funding allocations allow for increases in the student services charge in 2009/10 to up to €1,500 in individual institutions".

I'd imagine that all the third level institutions will take full advantage of that and increase it to €1500.

gaybitch

Aw that sucks. I won't be going down on Wednesday, I have a stupid lecture that I have to go to. Missed it last week so I sort of have to stick my head in.

Crash

At least simultaneously to the reg fee cap being moved up, there is a raise in capital spending in third level.

EGaffney

Good. At least universities will not see swinging cuts.

manicmonoliths

Peslo wrote: »

Can somebody clarify this? ?sounds like a loada BA but I heard if the majority of the class wants to, then ya have to go as CR.

Class reps don't have to attend strictly speaking. Surely if people in your class are opposed to fees they can march themselves?? You're not their mammy

PurpleFistMixer

It'd presumably be out of solidarity with the SU to march, etc., if you're a class rep., not necessarily to represent your class.

PurpleFistMixer

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

It'd presumably be out of solidarity with the SU to march, etc., if you're a class rep., not necessarily to represent your class.

While class reps will be heavily encouraged to go out and march, and to get their class to come out, in reality some class reps would be in favour of fees coming back in so there isn't an automatic solidarity there with reps.

Ron DMC

Unless they are mandated to, class reps don't have to do anything.

Even then... remember when Hugh managed to get all members of council mandated to give blood?

Peslo

Slightly O/T, but when you're a class rep, you're part of the SU right?

manicmonoliths

Peslo wrote: »

Slightly O/T, but when you're a class rep, you're part of the SU right?

All student's are members of the SU. But when you're a reps are typically more involved than most

starn

No. Bring fees back I say

Peslo

No I mean like the part of the council (I think). Like have to attend the meetings and stuff

Ron DMC

Peslo wrote: »

No I mean like the part of the council (I think). Like have to attend the meetings and stuff

Yep.

Peslo

Ronny Mitchell wrote: »

Yep.

OK Thanks.

manicmonoliths

Peslo wrote: »

OK Thanks.

I can sense the enthusiasm :rolleyes:
Seriously though, council can be quite fun... though maybe that's only true for hacks like me

ilovemybrick

starn wrote: »

No. Bring fees back I say

I agree. Bring them back. but with them bring in a gradiated grants system. Bring in scholarships and bring in tax breaks for those paying fees.

As for voting lots of people forget this simple point. The SU is your representative. If you agree with the re-introduction of fees get involved and then get the SU and USI to the table with college and the government as a properly representative body.

I agree with fees in principle. I however will march because i think the SU should at all stages fight tooth and nail to stop the current thinking of fees.

This is not hypocrisy. The media and the government can ignore SUs the country over and USI if 200 people show up. If 5000 show up and make a bloody loud noise then we can become a properly structured and properly representative body of students and citizens who demand to be heard.

ilovemybrick

manicmonoliths wrote: »

though maybe that's only true for hacks like me

Ah your still only a baby hack though.

manicmonoliths

ilovemybrick wrote: »

Ah your still only a baby hack though.

I can't think of a comment witty enough to counter your comedy soc hackness, apologies.

Boston

Mark200 wrote: »

But how can they do they when the majority of incoming students will be 18 or over, the government can't expect all those parents to pay for their children's education.

I don't think full parental emancipation happens at 18 in Ireland, its either 21 or 23 I forget which and the leprechaun who told me was pretty drunk at the time so it was hard to make out.

Crash

actually - heres a funny idea. which do you prefer, an SU and USI which have a strong mandate opposing fees, or one that doesn't.

Cus the funny part is, one of those can sit down and attempt to raise items concerning how they feel fees should be best introduced (graduated grants, tax breaks etc.) and the other can't technically, at all. Funny that isn't it?

ilovemybrick

manicmonoliths wrote: »

I can't think of a comment witty enough to counter your comedy soc hackness, apologies.

I never claimed to be funny. Just organised.

starn

The SU and USI would be a lot better going out and protesting about the 1% tax incrse and its implimentation on lower paid worker (Basically people who earn less then 23k and thus fall out of the tax bracket) I would imagine very few SU and USI members earn over 20k a year let alone fall into any of the tax brackets. Come on Cathal get off your arse and do something

tolosenc

The very idea of people protesting this pisses me off.

Before I start, I'm in no way an FF looney, or even supporter.

The Irish Government bucks the international trend by covering our education costs, and a by-product of this is ridiculously under funded universities. Students who protest against the reindtroduction of fees are doing so out of greed, demanding that a privelege afforded to them in more affluent times, which can no longer be supported, not be taken away. It is in the benefit of both the University and the state to re-introduce fees.

In the interests of keeping college accesible to all, which is undoubtedly a good thing, a more effective grant system is needed for the less well off, but those who can afford the fees should be paying 6 odd grand a year for the privelege of attending college.

Surpluses that were wasted by FF, the PDs and the Greens in past years is not an argument against the reintroduction. What's done is done, and they should never be allowed back into government for it, but at the end of the day, this rather common rebuttal is akin to crying over spilt milk.

That and I have a class then.

Crash

actually, forgot one other thing, along side grant reformation - similar loan system to many countries in that the loans only fall due once you begin to earn over a certain threshold, therefore you're not forced into repayments before you're financially capable thereof.

PurpleFistMixer

obl wrote: »

The Irish Government bucks the international trend by covering our education costs, and a by-product of this is ridiculously under funded universities. Students who protest against the reindtroduction of fees are doing so out of greed, demanding that a privelege afforded to them in more affluent times, which can no longer be supported, not be taken away. It is in the benefit of both the University and the state to re-introduce fees.

To demand that education be free for all is greedy?

EGaffney

Yeah, pretty much.

To demand a free €4,500 subsidy rather than a free €3,000 subsidy - for all, no matter what their income or anything like that - certainly is greedy.

Subsidies certainly haven't helped unis educate Irish students better. Medical education is the most glaring example but there are probably others.

Ron DMC

obl wrote: »

The very idea of people protesting this pisses me off.

I agree.

People who can afford college should pay for it, those who cannot afford it should be allowed go anyway. Obviously some can afford it more than others, so a graded or ranked system of different fee levels for different income families would be ideal.

obl wrote: »

Surpluses that were wasted by FF, the PDs and the Greens in past years is not an argument against the reintroduction. What's done is done, and they should never be allowed back into government for it, but at the end of the day, this rather common rebuttal is akin to crying over spilt milk.

Don't be silly, in that case no political party should ever be elected to Government. They've all made mistakes at one stage or another.

Boston

You either have an open education system or you don't. Fees would represent a barrier to entry to third level education, as such you can't both have fees and an education system which everyone can avail of regardless.

Obi, I'll have the privilege of handing over half my income ( or there about) to the state each month when I'm fully qualified. Why is it so hard to see free education as an financial investment? The benefits of a large highly qualified work force can he seen all around us. The government pays now, but down the road takes in many times that amount in tax revenue.

You're solution is a fairer grant system where by people pay in proportion to what they can afford, however the current grant system has many failings, why wouldn't a new one? And is it even fair to take parents income into account in the first place?

Another point which I think is often over looked is that we need people qualified in areas which won't result in high paying jobs. Is it fair to burden these people with 24k -30k of debt when they're likely to be only earning 25k - 28k a year once qualified, that would represent more of a hardship to them then it would to someone starting out at 40K a year.

Awayindahils

I very much dislike protests, and I don't think I should have come to college for free, so I'm still unsure whether or not I'll be there. I'm sick of being told that x/y/z doesn't exist becuase there isn't the money. I hate that in 4th year a load of my courses have new lecturers because my school can afford to offer people contracts for more than 3 years.

This said I don't think that the current proposals by the government are nuanced enough to deal with the situation effectively without damaging the knowledge economy. I also think there needs to be a system where by people can secure finance for 4th level. I'm not sure what kind of loan system there should be, but the complete lack of proper student loans at the moment is a huge flaw in our system.

My sister goes to college in Dundee and while it's free for her to attend for the next 5 years, she pays fees after she graduates. I think that has potential as a system for here. People only start paying when they start earning, and one doesn't leave college in a huge amount of debt.

It'll be interesting to see what the protest is like next week.

Boston

If
A) All student loans where interest free and backed by the government
Delayed repayment until income reached an acceptable level
C) The full cost of repayments could be applied against tax liability.
D) Progressive grants right up the pay scale and not in brands.

I could see it as potentially a good system. Should ensure that all those that want to go to college have the money available to do so and the opportunity to repay without being crippled.

However I predict the following

A) Student loans continue to be managed by banks often with extreme interest rates and short periods of repayment
Repay after fix time regardless of income
C) Loan repayment not applied against tax liability (why should the rich get tax breaks)
D) Same band system as we have now whereby you'd basically have to already qualify for social welfare in other to get fee remission.

This will keep alot of people out of third level education, and ultimately **** our country in years to come.

EGaffney

We already have one of the highest levels of participation in third level institutions in the OECD. Realistically, there are people in third level who would do just as well if they were working, or training while working, or on apprenticeships. However as long as we are in a situation in which everybody trains to get a diploma/degree because everybody else is too, nobody has an incentive to break out of this equilibrium.

And of course, we the taxpayers foot the bill.

The vast majority of economic benefits of third level education accrue to the educated people themselves.

Boston

You say "we the tax payer" as if students never become tax payers.

For what its worth I agree. More and more I encounter people working in Jobs that don't utilise the qualification they have and would never require a degree. College has become things people simply do before having to enter the real work. This has the knock on effect of raising the bar to a silly height. Why exactly is a degree needed to perform a function someone straight out of school or who has a diploma/cert from a PLC/IT could do just as well.

The current system is flawed. A fee system would fix a lot of the current problems but introduce a lot of new ones.

EGaffney

Well, most students aren't currently taxpayers! (Bar VAT and the like.) I am both - and I know that my own views on tax became a lot firmer when I started paying PAYE.

I think that TCD certainly does help the "knowledge economy" - probably not as much as UCD though. That's because many of my class has left to take our state-subsidised education abroad, and I intend to do the same. I don't feel any patriotic duty to hang around in the jobs market during a recession at home! I do think that most students would be prepared to pay fees, given an appropriate finance system, which in fairness is what Batt O'Keeffe has spoken about.

The question is not about TCD/UCD so much as the rural ITs. I can't be convinced that the State actually gains from paying for class after class of business graduates rather than people with experience in the sector.

Jegger

obl wrote: »

The very idea of people protesting this pisses me off.

Before I start, I'm in no way an FF looney, or even supporter.

The Irish Government bucks the international trend by covering our education costs, and a by-product of this is ridiculously under funded universities. Students who protest against the reindtroduction of fees are doing so out of greed, demanding that a privelege afforded to them in more affluent times, which can no longer be supported, not be taken away. It is in the benefit of both the University and the state to re-introduce fees.

In the interests of keeping college accesible to all, which is undoubtedly a good thing, a more effective grant system is needed for the less well off, but those who can afford the fees should be paying 6 odd grand a year for the privelege of attending college.

Surpluses that were wasted by FF, the PDs and the Greens in past years is not an argument against the reintroduction. What's done is done, and they should never be allowed back into government for it, but at the end of the day, this rather common rebuttal is akin to crying over spilt milk.

That and I have a class then.

You are unbelievable, i don't know if your saying make the rich pay and have it free for the less well off or if your saying make the less well off pay some but not all, either way I at laugh at your politics. You really think the government could draw a line down through the population and say of yous have to pay yous don't. The world doesn't work like that. Some families can't even afford to send there kids to free primary school, some can hardly afford to send them to college, cos college is far from free. As I'm sure you know (but it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't) that we college student have to pay for books and accommodation travel food etc. put fees on top of that and people simply will not be able to afford to go to college. If the "grant" system worked the way it should nobody would complain about the cost of education but unsurprisingly it doesn't. Say no to fees and try, for 2 minutes, thinking about those people who cant afford them!

JonGaffer

JonGaffer wrote: »

You are unbelievable, i don't know if your saying make the rich pay and have it free for the less well off or if your saying make the less well off pay some but not all, either way I at laugh at your politics. You really think the government could draw a line down through the population and say of yous have to pay yous don't. The world doesn't work like that. Some families can't even afford to send there kids to free primary school, some can hardly afford to send them to college, cos college is far from free. As I'm sure you know (but it wouldn't surprise me if you didn't) that we college student have to pay for books and accommodation travel food etc. put fees on top of that and people simply will not be able to afford to go to college. If the "grant" system worked the way it should nobody would complain about the cost of education but unsurprisingly it doesn't. Say no to fees and try, for 2 minutes, thinking about those people who cant afford them!

yes comrade!

EGaffney

JonGaffer wrote: »

Say no to fees and try, for 2 minutes, thinking about those people who cant afford them!

OK I thought about them. Perhaps those people would do just as well doing something else. There is nothing about ITs/university which makes one an inherently better human being.

That is especially the case if, as you suggest, they are struggling in education before coming to third level in the first place. If that is the case, then student subsidies are an even bigger wealth transfer to the middle classes than we may have thought...