Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland?

Bog Butter

Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland? I fear not! Does anybody have some insight into this issue?

tolosenc

I think you'll find that, like most people on the island, the majority just don't give a ****.

luckyfrank

obl wrote: »

I think you'll find that, like most people on the island, the majority just don't give a ****.

Not all catholics want a united ireland but the majority do same as not all prodestants want to remain in the union but the majority do

Irlbo

Shame on ANY that doesnt,Catholic,Protestants,baptists,pagans etc etc,we should be ashamed of oursleves that we dont pursue our countries freedom

pablomakaveli

this is probably the 100th thread relating to a united ireland to appear in one month and each one seems to degenerate into debates about the IRA etc. i can honestly see it happening with this one as well.

mike65

FFS! Its not about CATHOLICS its about NATIONALISTS!

or in before lock.

Mike

stovelid

I lived in Belfast for a few years and if the Catholics (and Protestants) I knew there are representative of the population, I'd say no. It's foolish to assume that everyone sings of the same sheet because of their religion.

mike65 wrote: »

FFS! Its not about CATHOLICS its about NATIONALISTS!

It's about human reets!!!

dlofnep

Catholic/Loyalist was a creationary attempt to divide the people of the North. The war is not about Catholics & Protestants, but rather Nationalists & Loyalists. Some notable Irish nationalists in the past were Protestant.

Some catholics are status quo as are some protestants. Each county has it's own demographics.

turgon

dlofnep wrote: »

Some notable Irish nationalists in the past were Protestant.

Example Wolfe Tone; Robert Emmet. However they are old examples any were possibly a different "stock" of Irish Nationalist to those nowadays.

TheBigLebowski

mike65 wrote: »

FFS! Its not about CATHOLICS its about NATIONALISTS!

or in before lock.

Mike

What are you talking about?!? What's not about catholics? The original question was whether all catholics in the north want a united Ireland and it is a vaild question.

It's just as valid as asking do muslims living the north want a united Ireland...

'Do all nationalists want a united Ireland' is a different question.

As has been stated above, nationalist does not equal catholic.

leninbenjamin

no

McArmalite

obl wrote: »

I think you'll find that, like most people on the island, the majority just don't give a ****.

Well I'm sure Paisley would agree with you. So what does it feel like to be a Paisleyite ??

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

What are you talking about?!? What's not about catholics? The original question was whether all catholics in the north want a united Ireland and it is a vaild question.

It's just as valid as asking do muslims living the north want a united Ireland...

'Do all nationalists want a united Ireland' is a different question.

As has been stated above, nationalist does not equal catholic.

" nationalist does not equal catholic " Totally agree there, this thread has only one outcome but to incite secterianism. And BTW - and this will very surprise most of you - I'm not a Catholic, honestly.

McArmalite

turgon wrote: »

Example Wolfe Tone; Robert Emmet. However they are old examples any were possibly a different "stock" of Irish Nationalist to those nowadays.

I suppose it's not " today " but two Irish presidents have been Protestants, Douglas Hyde and Erskine Childers

Time Magazine

AFAIK it's illegal to be a nationalist and not Catholic up North, but you're allowed be a catholic and not a nationalist.

turgon

McArmalite wrote: »

Well I'm sure Paisley would agree with you. So what does it feel like to be a Paisleyite ??

Ah yes, the classic "if your not with us your against us" argument.

If you, as a country, are not supportive of the war on Terror, your anti-America.
If your not 100% constantly critical of Hitler, your a Fascist.
If you dont wholly agree with the Allies in WWII, your a Nazi sympathizer.
If your not supportive of Israel, your anti-Semite.
If you mainly see the modern IRA as a negative organization, your a West Brit Unionist.

Keep talking McArmalite, the world is listening to your infinite wisdom.

dlofnep

He didn't say anything about the IRA turgon. You did. He was responding to the statement that the majority of people don't care.

There are many people within society who are comfortable with the status quo. But there are many who are not, and will continue to fight for Irish independence. Many are angered by the passive nature of the status quo on the issue and feel they have turned their back on their fellow countrymen. Hence the feedback. I'm sure you in your infinite wisdom can appreciate this.

I personally don't care. I care about my own objectives and what I have to offer to the Republican cause. I devote my spare time during the week (to which I do not have much of) - And if someone wants to be passive about it, let them - I will just work twice as hard in their absence.

I can see why you have come to the conclusion that you have come to.

madden1

malman wrote: »

Do all Catholics in the six counties want a united Ireland? I fear not! Does anybody have some insight into this issue

I would say about 95% of catholic/nationalist who take the time to vote want a united Ireland,
and as you all know approx 70-80% of people vote at any election in the north

As do 95% of protestants probably still want the british link

the rest are from the don't give a dam school of thought

So if you check your election results over the decades "all will be revealed"

JWAD

dlofnep wrote: »

There are many people within society who are comfortable with the status quo. But there are many who are not, and will continue to fight for Irish independence

So long as its democratically done, they can do what they want. The people of this island already spoke in a referendum about how they feel on the subject.

djpbarry

madden1 wrote: »

I would say about 95% of catholic/nationalist who take the time to vote want a united Ireland...

Only about 47% according to this.

madden1 wrote: »

As do 95% of protestants probably still want the british link

As do about 39% of Catholics, apparently.

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

Only about 47% according to this.
As do about 39% of Catholics, apparently.

I wouldn't rely very much on the accuracy of that ARK survey. Surveying from one area to the next could be entirely different. For example, surveying catholics in South Belfast would not give the same result as West Belfast.

I read the technical notes on their survey. There was no statistics on the area in which it was surveyed. I highly doubt that if it was processed in Derry it would give the same result.

Secondly, 23% of those selected were 65+ while 8.3% were in the 18-24 category. But yet, when you look at the age brackets - the highest support for Irish Unity in their poll is in that very bracket - 18-24 (ie: those who have been brought up through the good friday agreement). It should also be noted that males were more inclined to opt for Irish Unity, but yet there were 5.6% more females polled.

All these small things add up. I think if you speak to members of the community yourself, you'll get a better picture.

Kev_ps3

Patriots do, traitors dont.

McArmalite

turgon wrote: »

Keep talking McArmalite, the world is listening to your infinite wisdom.

Thank you turgon, I know I had a big fan club out there.

stovelid

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Patriots do, traitors dont.

And dissent is not possible?

CSC

turgon wrote: »

Example Wolfe Tone; Robert Emmet. However they are old examples any were possibly a different "stock" of Irish Nationalist to those nowadays.

There has been examples in the recent past. Ronnie Bunting, is probably one of the most well known.

podge79

I dont think the vast majority North or south want it. I think it would cause more problems then it would solve... for example would Unionists start bombing Dublin etc demanding autonomy?

It is time to focus on more important issues facing the world - personally the fact that thousands are dying each day from starvation around the world worries me more than having a unified Ireland

TOMASJ

podge79 wrote: »

I dont think the vast majority North or south want it. I think it would cause more problems then it would solve... for example would Unionists start bombing Dublin etc demanding autonomy?

Podge
The Unionists were never capable of bombing Dublin or any where else without being taking by the hand by the SAS and the fuse lit for them,
If the british government pull the plug the Unionists will conform.

podge79

TOMASJ wrote: »

podge79 wrote: »

Podge
The Unionists were never capable of bombing Dublin or any where else without being taking by the hand by the SAS and the fuse lit for them,
If the british government pull the plug the Unionists will conform.

and whats to stop them or anyone else on the loyalist side becoming capable of bombing Dublin or anywhere else? its not as if its that hard to locate people around the globe willing to sell the technology and with the experience to do so

dlofnep

I don't think we could rule out loyalist attacks - Which is why a practical plan would need to be put in place which gives a little leeway.

It's alright though when the attacks are up in the North though, right? That's the mentality of modern day Ireland.

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

Podge
The Unionists were never capable of bombing Dublin or any where else without being taking by the hand by the SAS and the fuse lit for them,
If the british government pull the plug the Unionists will conform.

And you, of course, can back this up, or are we relying on the old "If we say it enough times it must be true" logic again.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And you, of course, can back this up, or are we relying on the old "If we say it enough times it must be true" logic again.

No Fred
I can back it up, Im sure heard about a band called the miami who were stopped by a joint SAS UDR UVF group of murderers , who put a large bomb in there van and it went off prematurely killing band members and brits alike,
the brits then tried to shoot the rest of he band members and failed,
This is the most infamous incidents

2-D Man

No all Catholics do not.

Do all Protestants want to retain the union? Of course not.

The overwhelming majority of Catholics want a united Ireland and the overwhelming majority of Protestants want partition. Unfortunatley it is this fact that has led to the warped media reports claiming it was a religious war etc...

My girlfriend is from Derry. Her father is Catholic and her mother Protestant, however both are nationalists

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

It's alright though when the attacks are up in the North though, right?

Oh, I see; anyone who doesn't support a united Ireland obviously doesn't give a toss about terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland?

podge79

TOMASJ wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No Fred
I can back it up, Im sure heard about a band called the miami who were stopped by a joint SAS UDR UVF group of murderers , who put a large bomb in there van and it went off prematurely killing band members and brits alike,
the brits then tried to shoot the rest of he band members and failed,
This is the most infamous incidents

and the agents of the irish state while never physically killing anyone in the north never 'assisted' the IRA by turning a blind eye to their activities? Authorities on both sides have blood on their hands by their actions or inactions. Neither side can take a "holier than thou" attitude

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

No Fred
I can back it up, Im sure heard about a band called the miami who were stopped by a joint SAS UDR UVF group of murderers , who put a large bomb in there van and it went off prematurely killing band members and brits alike,
the brits then tried to shoot the rest of he band members and failed,
This is the most infamous incidents

and the proof is where? word of advice, Mcarmalite's posts are not proof.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and the proof is where? word of advice, Mcarmalite's posts are not proof

Fred if you can bring yourself to it
Have a read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Showband_killings

Or just keep your head buried in the sand and ignore all wrong doings by the SAS and hope that it goes away

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

Fred if you can bring yourself to it
Have a read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Showband_killings

Or just keep your head buried in the sand and ignore all wrong doings by the SAS and hope that it goes away

good one. Although I'm not sure a wiki article that can be edited by anyone who can be bothered would stand up in a court of law.

So far the only credible account is that one of the men had an English accent, **** it, it could be me.:eek:

care to share your other enlightened examples?

thehighground

Fratton Fred wrote: »

good one. Although I'm not sure a wiki article that can be edited by anyone who can be bothered would stand up in a court of law.

So far the only credible account is that one of the men had an English accent, **** it, it could be me.:eek:

care to share your other enlightened examples?

Well Fred, can you explain why the British & Irish Govs. will not set up an investigation into the Dublin & Monaghan Bombings, particularly in light of the Barron Report. You would think they would want to remove all suspicion that they were involved, wouldn't you?

As for the Miami Showband murders - Sunday Business Post article (in italics here) which is hardly a provo propaganda sheet and can't be altered by anyone like wiki.

The continued refusal of the British authorities to assist the Barron Report into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings with any intelligence investigation has deepened the suspicion that unravelling the mystery would inevitably lead to links with a series of killings across the ‘murder triangle', including that of the Miami Showband.

Indeed, forensic and weapon linkages from the Miami killings - and through a long list of convicted loyalist paramilitaries - creates an inter-linking series of ‘murder triangle' killings, many of which involved former members of the mid-Ulster UDR regiment, the RUC and members of the UVF.

Whether these activities were unilateral or a wider part of British intelligence undercover activity remains the most significant question.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2005/07/31/story6772.asp

Fratton Fred

stop the press. the UDR was full of UVF members.

I actually missed the bit about the SAS, could you point it out to me?

thehighground

Fratton Fred wrote: »

stop the press. the UDR was full of UVF members.

I actually missed the bit about the SAS, could you point it out to me?

Do you not think there is something wrong with a British Army regiment being full of loyalist terrorists? I honestly don't think many people would be too happy down here if a regiment of the Irish Defence Forces had republican paramilitaries serving anyway. But hey, thats just me!

And you will keep missing the bit about the SAS until there is an enquiry into the Dublin Monaghan bombings. Perhaps you might contact some of your MPs and encourage them to allow it

and Fred, would you mind answering this please:

Well Fred, can you explain why the British & Irish Govs. will not set up an investigation into the Dublin & Monaghan Bombings, particularly in light of the Barron Report. You would think they would want to remove all suspicion that they were involved, wouldn't you?

Fratton Fred

There is something very wrong with having a terrorist organisation rife within one of your regiments, without a doubt. its a huge ****ing national embarrassment as far as i am concerned.

As far as Dublin and Monaghan are concerned, yes it would be good for the government to open up classified files.

For the British government, i think it is because the UDR were involved at a time when their numbers were being increased and reports of their involvement would have meant a complete rethink of policy.

For the Irish government, I think they just ****ed the whole thing up, big time, and are too embarressed to admit it.

suppose for a minute the British government had information the attacks were to take place, but didn't react because they were protecting informers, but they told the Irish government, who did nothing about it. How much singing and dancing do you think either government is going to do about the whole sorry episode.

I'm just about to start reading a book on the subject btw.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

good one. Although I'm not sure a wiki article that can be edited by anyone who can be bothered would stand up in a court of law.

So far the only credible account is that one of the men had an English accent, **** it, it could be me.:eek:

care to share your other enlightened examples?

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/docs/kaystavern0706.pdf

Knock yourself out. Not to mention, Fred Holroyd, a captain in the British army backs up these claims.

thehighground

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is something very wrong with having a terrorist organisation rife within one of your regiments, without a doubt. its a huge ****ing national embarrassment as far as i am concerned.

Its more than an embarrassment, its shocking. I was stopped once by the UDR on a road checkpoint in the early '90s (ROI registered car). I thought it was the end of me. And some people wonder why the Sinn Fein/Provisional IRA got so much support in NI? :rolleyes:

As far as Dublin and Monaghan are concerned, yes it would be good for the government to open up classified files.

TBH, it would not be good for British/Irish relations if it came out that British intellience/SAS had a hand in those bombings (and I saying that as someone who has a friend whose mother was killed in Talbot St).

For the British government, i think it is because the UDR were involved at a time when their numbers were being increased and reports of their involvement would have meant a complete rethink of policy.

Not good enough for what is meant to be the best army in the world.

For the Irish government, I think they just ****ed the whole thing up, big time, and are too embarressed to admit it.

suppose for a minute the British government had information the attacks were to take place, but didn't react because they were protecting informers, but they told the Irish government, who did nothing about it. How much singing and dancing do you think either government is going to do about the whole sorry episode.

I'm just about to start reading a book on the subject btw.

Irish Gov. had no other option - Britain had invaded a very small, fairly helpless state and killed some of its citizens. Britain could have wiped us out in a second.

Fratton Fred

thehighground wrote: »

TBH, it would not be good for British/Irish relations if it came out that British intellience/SAS had a hand in those bombings (and I saying that as someone who has a friend whose mother was killed in Talbot St).

the trouble is, people have already made up their minds as to what has happened. People are chipping in with gems like "I saw a British soldier on the Dublin - Holyhead ferry" as if that is some sort of proof.

thehighground wrote: »

Not good enough for what is meant to be the best army in the world.

Which is the probable reason why no one was that keen to shout about it.

getz

wasent there some irish senior republic politician [now dead]who made money by selling arms to the IRA?

thehighground

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the trouble is, people have already made up their minds as to what has happened. People are chipping in with gems like "I saw a British soldier on the Dublin - Holyhead ferry" as if that is some sort of proof.

Well you can knock the ferry notion on the head for sure - I thought everyone knew they got a Garda escort to the Border.

Which is the probable reason why no one was that keen to shout about it.

Fred, with that comment, you leave me speechless! Are you trying to be funny again?

thehighground

getz wrote: »

wasent there some irish senior republic politician [now dead]who made money by selling arms to the IRA?

Don't think any Irish politician made money selling arms to the IRA or in fact sold arms! Gadafi used to sell arms to the IRA as far as I know.

Who made money/supplied arms to the UDR / UVF?

jaqian

Irlbo wrote: »

Shame on ANY that doesnt,Catholic,Protestants,baptists,pagans etc etc,we should be ashamed of oursleves that we dont pursue our countries freedom

What difference would it make? We all speak the same language, there are no border check-points anymore. All we need it for them to start using the Euro and we're as good as united!

dlofnep

jaqian wrote: »

What difference would it make? We all speak the same language, there are no border check-points anymore. All we need it for them to start using the Euro and we're as good as united!

About as united as Canada & The United States then? Two seperate Governments - One with terrible foreign relations, and a haven for Islamic terrorist attacks. The other run by a man with extremely large lips and is in recession.

Just because there are no border check-points (and I was stopped by the PSNI on my way back from Belfast near the "border" btw), does not mean Ireland is united. Unity implies one goverment, common trade and economic policies, one foreign policy, one currency and so forth.

getz

you dont want that at this moment food is far cheeper in northern ireland

Fratton Fred

thehighground wrote: »

Well you can knock the ferry notion on the head for sure - I thought everyone knew they got a Garda escort to the Border.

Fred, with that comment, you leave me speechless! Are you trying to be funny again?

Why? what are your conclusions?

thehighground

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why? what are your conclusions?

That more than likely there were a fair few people on the ferry out of Dublin with English accents who had nothing to do with the bombings

My conclusion is that it is a bit more than just "a huge ****ing national embarrassment as far as i am concerned." Personally, I find it hugely annoying when people like yourself try and defend the indefensible. I can only imagine how people feel who were at the receiving end of this 'embarrasement' for 30+ years and why they might not want to be citizens of the State that allowed this to happen.