Amateur or Professional

ibuprofen

I know this will be a very controversial topic and one people will feel strongly about but I think one well worth talking about so no spoilers please.

With Australian scouts coming over from the AFL I believe we need to react. These players are a cheap alternative for the afl teams so i'd say that more and more scouts will be coming over from various AFL clubs. The young irish players are going over for 20000 on a trial contract which is only a few grand above min wage.

Something similar happened between rugby and rugby league (Australian rugby). With the help of sky sports rugby league became professional . At the time rugby union was still amateur and alot of it's best players changed codes and made what seemed a superior brand of rugby (rugby league). Long story short, rugby union was forced into professionalism and is now the preeminent rugby code.

I believe we should pay our players at county level. They could be payed a set wage that is the same in every county. I would suggest around 80000 for a first team player with fringe players on 30000 and then payed extra per match they play in. This would be enough for players to train full time. This could be given in the form of a car for example which the GAA could buy in bulk directly from car manafacturers at a good price.

I would say this would cost around 2,000,000 € all in ,per county ,per code. Not every county plays both hurling and football , There will be coaches and physios etc that need to be payed too. The bigger counties will definitely be subsidising the less populated counties. But considering gate receipts alone Dublin would more than cover a counties costs in one game similar to Cork in Pairc Ui Caoimh. Even Donegal with two games in Ballybuffet would have made around a million in gate receipts.

The GAA already pay officials and administrators so why not reward the people we go to watch. They give up alot for the love of the game.

smashey

This should be interesting.

I'm all for paying the players even though it goes against the ethos of the GAA. When you see the effort they put in throughout the year and the sacrifices they make, why shouldn't they get a fiscal reward rather than just the honour of playing for their county and a few medals (in some cases ).

As for what would be an affordable and fair rate, there would need to be a compromise.

mikemac

Your post mentions AFL recruiting GAA football players.

Will hurlers be getting the same benefits also in your plan also?
I don't see it mentioned. I'm leaving aside dual players in this.

Will a player with top football skills get paid but a top hurler who could never hope to be recruited by AFL not get paid?
Not realy clear in your post

ibuprofen

micmclo wrote: »

Your post mentions AFL recruiting GAA football players.

Will hurlers be getting the same benefits also in your plan also?
I don't see it mentioned. I'm leaving aside dual players in this.

Will a player with top football skills get paid but a top hurler who could never hope to be recruited by AFL not get paid?
Not realy clear in your post

Yes definitely both hurling and football players should get paid.

ArmaniJeanss

The sums you mention are much too big.
The GAA structure, in its current format, is much too large to support professionalism.

Looking at football, 31 counties with a squad of 30 players = 900+ players being paid.

Compare this to soccer in UK. On a population basis it would be the equivalant of having 12000+ professional soccer players. Going on roughly 400 players per division it would be the top 30 divisions of soccer being paid, whereas in actual fact soccer stops paying people this sort of money somewhere around Division 9 (just below Conference North/South level).

Not having a go at ya - I'm actually a fan of professionalism (its a tragedy that top sportspeople in this country don't get paid) - I just don't think that there are 900 players in the country who deserve to be paid.

By the way, once you start paying people then EU employment laws come into play. If for example I'm Antrim born and bred and in no way qualify for Dublin, but I'm the best player in the country and Dublin are willing to pay me more than Antrim are willing to pay me, then how do you legally stop me playing for Dublin?

An Citeog

ibuprofen wrote: »

Yes definitely both hurling and football players should get paid.

What about players from the likes of Leitrim, London, Waterford and Kilkenny (football)? Should their first team players earn the same amount as the top players in Tyrone or Kerry? What'll be left over for grass-roots and the other 90% of the GAA playing population? Should Dublin players be paid more because your whole system depends on their gate receipts?

I'm all for giving intercounty players some form of monetary compensation but what you're suggesting is ridiculous!

ibuprofen

An Citeog wrote: »

What about players from the likes of Leitrim, London, Waterford and Kilkenny (football)? Should their first team players earn the same amount as the top players in Tyrone or Kerry? What'll be left over for grass-roots and the other 90% of the GAA playing population? Should Dublin players be paid more because your whole system depends on their gate receipts?

I'm all for giving intercounty players some form of monetary compensation but what you're suggesting is ridiculous!

In my post I say that all players should be paid equally thus keeping the ethos .

Some counties don't have a hurling and football team ie kilkenny

So you agree with professionalism!! That's my topic question
I don't expect everyone to agree with every point I'm making . I have suggested about 100 million of wages yearly. Dublin for example would make about 3,000,000 on average a game on gate receipts, 5 games this year . That's approx a sixth/senenth of the cost of all counties wages and doesn't include tv revenue, sponsorship or retail revenue at the game. it's definitely plausible.
As I stated in my 1st post Donegal had two matches in which they made approx 1,000,000 euros 20,000 people at 25€ a ticket two games again not including any other revenue. So they probably wouldn't need any subsidising.

How much remuneration would you suggest is appropriate.

ibuprofen

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The sums you mention are much too big.
The GAA structure, in its current format, is much too large to support professionalism.

Looking at football, 31 counties with a squad of 30 players = 900+ players being paid.

Compare this to soccer in UK. On a population basis it would be the equivalant of having 12000+ professional soccer players. Going on roughly 400 players per division it would be the top 30 divisions of soccer being paid, whereas in actual fact soccer stops paying people this sort of money somewhere around Division 9 (just below Conference North/South level).

Not having a go at ya - I'm actually a fan of professionalism (its a tragedy that top sportspeople in this country don't get paid) - I just don't think that there are 900 players in the country who deserve to be paid.

By the way, once you start paying people then EU employment laws come into play. If for example I'm Antrim born and bred and in no way qualify for Dublin, but I'm the best player in the country and Dublin are willing to pay me more than Antrim are willing to pay me, then how do you legally stop me playing for Dublin?

I've answered your questions in the above thread with regard to wages revenue etc
I take it you agree with professionalisation but don''t think it's feasable. What do you think is manageable or appropriate as remuneration for the players.

Grudaire

Hmmm I'd propose a blanket system involving generous expenses to the tune of 30,000 for ALL players on senior inter county teams the problem arises when we consider the other GAA sports- Camogie, Ladies Football, and Handball (I've never heard of a serious rounders competition) It's a fact that players in these other codes of GAA sports put in as much effort, should they too not be remunerated?

ibuprofen

Cliste wrote: »

Hmmm I'd propose a blanket system involving generous expenses to the tune of 30,000 for ALL players on senior inter county teams the problem arises when we consider the other GAA sports- Camogie, Ladies Football, and Handball (I've never heard of a serious rounders competition) It's a fact that players in these other codes of GAA sports put in as much effort, should they too not be remunerated?

. I see the potential for both hurling and football to fund themselves. So perhaps a similar idea for all the other sports could be adopted .
I would love to see a professional womans field sport but the figures may or may not add up . I think it's a discussion for another day

You're suggesting about 600,000 wages for each county per code. I'd say they could afford more . That's 5 counties covered in gate receipts for each dublin match for example. That's only 6 matches app. from gate receipts to fund the bill.
As I said before a crowd of 20,000 gets a half million @ €25 from gate receipts alone so most counties will probably be able to afford their own wage bill.

evil-monkey

ya but what a lot of people forget when they raise this point is; pay players, fine - but what about managers?? coaches?? physios?? etc etc etc

why should Henry Shefflin or whoever get paid 80k a year, when Joe Bloggs who trained him when he was 15 and made him the player he is today gets sweet f**k all?? it's not just inter-county players who put in this amount of time...the men on the ground are too, from board delegates to the lads who cut the grass. fellas coaching Bord na nOg teams are out there 4 days a week too - and like inter-county stars, they've their full time jobs as well, and not half the glory.

and if the sports go professional, it will murder the club game even more than it has today. players will be contractually bound to their counties. when you're paying a guy 80k a year for his services, you're not going to want him breaking his leg playing for his club are you?? so a club builds up a player over the years, he gets his 80k contract, and never plays for the club again.

and let's not forget. if Dublin can afford to pay you 100k a year, and Wicklow can't - you'd be moving to Dublin wouldn't you?? so you cap wages?? that'll never last. guys will start cribbing that the guy next to him is on the same even though he's not half as good a player etc etc...

also, you'd have to reformat the competition so guys weren't getting paid 80,000 for a season that included all of what, 10 games?? you'd need them to be playing inter-county week in week out for that kind of money, which would basically add to the aforementioned problem - the death of the club game.

it just wouldn't work. good thread though.

homerjay2005

would be ideal, but cant happen, wont happen. we dont have the same attendances week in week out that we need.

ireland cannot sustain professional in any sport because we dont have the population. rugby is doing it, but they dont have that many players to worry about.


anyway, i think alot of the players are doing well financially from it. i know some players, who are thick as boards, on great jobs cos of who they are. playing for your county has alot of perks and they also have their holidays/milage/meals etc.

evil-monkey

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i know some players, who are thick as boards, on great jobs cos of who they are.

lol - i could name a few myself!!

keithm1

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would be ideal, but cant happen, wont happen. we dont have the same attendances week in week out that we need.

ireland cannot sustain professional in any sport because we dont have the population. rugby is doing it, but they dont have that many players to worry about.


anyway, i think alot of the players are doing well financially from it. i know some players, who are thick as boards, on great jobs cos of who they are. playing for your county has alot of perks and they also have their holidays/milage/meals etc.

i agree 100%
but i would like to see them pros
i jump on the band wagon every summer and go to croker to see the dubs i havent missed 1 in years but very rarely do i go else where to see them
i would go week in week out if there were some decent venues and a croker like buzz on match days

ArmaniJeanss

keithm1 wrote: »

i would go week in week out if there were some decent venues and a croker like buzz on match days

But if Dublin had 30 Championship games a year (as someone pointed out they would need to play a lot more games than currently to justify €80K+ salaries) would the attendances, and consequent buzz, stay as high as they are now?

evilmonkey wrote:

if Dublin can afford to pay you 100k a year, and Wicklow can't - you'd be moving to Dublin wouldn't you??

You wouldn't have to move, once it goes professional they can't legally stop you 'working' for anyone you want.

*****
I don't think it can work in football with the 32 county structure, max 10 teams I would have thought. I'm sure the people of Wexford,Carlow and Kilkenny would get behind the newly created South East SeaHawks :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It might actually work better in hurling coz there is already only a dozen (max) serious counties.

It'll never happen, but I still think its a shame that the Gaelic sports never took off in Europe. The GAA would have had to develop totally different structures if Munich, Milan, and Manchester teams were paying 6 figure salaries, and generations of Irishmen would have been able to make a living from sport like their counterparts elsewhere.

evil-monkey

another thing is the fact that, when a player reaches the age of retirement, what's he gona do then?? start off in a new career?? not likely...

keithm1

evil-monkey wrote: »

another thing is the fact that, when a player reaches the age of retirement, what's he gona do then?? start off in a new career?? not likely...

good point

eroo

I think making the GAA a preofessional sport would be a disaster.

As someone already said, it isn't just hurling and football. There is handball, camogie, ladies football and rounders. How can you pay a senior hurling/football team and not pay a camogie/rounders team who are just as good in their chosen field?

Saying that some counties don't have both hurling and football teams is wrong. Here in Clare we have both. Yes we are a hurling county, but I wouldn't be in favour of the hurling team getting paid and the footballers not. They put in as much hours, so not paying them because they aren't the best is ridiculously unfair.

However, some form of gratuity payment to players would be great. A gratuity of 15,000-20,000euros a year. You would only get this if you attended every training night and every match. Players who make the starting team for at least 4 games be given an extra 2,000 as an incentive. Those who don't get an extra 500. If you are suspended for more than 2 games and/or recieve more than 3 red cards in a season you lose entitlement to your gratuity, but can still get the 500/2,000.

I'm not saying that is how it should be done, I just think that something like that would be plausible.

sslazio11

The professionalism thing is extremely tricky. But how about this:

• Every player on an intercounty panel is paid a flat fee of €30k. You nominate 25 on each panel at the start of the season. Including the hurling and football that's €1.5m per county. Central Council provide €1m per county for this. If you choose to take more players on board, that's at your own discretion. Manager and backroom staff contracts are negotiated on an individual basis.

• Teams who progress further in the championship are rewarded financially, a la the Champions League. I realise this could lead to a limited number of teams being capable of winning the championship, but that's already the case in both codes.

• Players who get their own sponsorship via boot deals, advertising campaigns etc., are generally the better players, so they're rewarded that way.

• Fellas can choose themselves whether they want to work part-time at something else, but they must adhere to certain requirements specified in their contracts re training and GAA commitments such as Summer Camps.

I'm sure there are logisitical problems with those proposals, but it seems like it might have a chance of working. Or at least they might if the economy wasn't going in the toilet.

silliegillie

I Don't think it should go fully professional. Maybe a thaught would be rather than the full profesionalism of it, that the Players recieve a % of the gate recipiepts of any match the played. Or to that matter give the county board a % of the Gate receipt but for the sole purpose that it should go to the Squad.
From this point of View then each county and playes do not get the same. ie the team that goes on to play in the all ireland final will have had more pay days than a team knocked out earlier in the championship. This would answer the question of whether a guy playing for a team on the lower levels should earn the same as a guy on the top level teams. He wouldn't this way.
Its a start to it. Plus I think it would be a nice gesture even if each playe only recieved 70 euro each for the first round and maybe anything up to a grand fort playing in the all Ireland final. It could be more it could be less.
It may also draw alot more people into the grounds if you knew that 10% of what you where paying into see was actually going Directly to the guys Playing on the pitch. So lets an all ireland final game played in Croke park.
82300 people in attendance. I dont know for arguments sake its prob going to avergae 50 euro a ticket ?(very rough guess) Thats a total of $4.1M euro. 10 % to the County for the players E410 grand to be divided out amoung the Squad and backroom team. That would be a nice little earner.
Of Course this will be tax free. I think it would also keep the ethos of the amatuer game. So if you have a guy on the Donegal hurling team complainging well then He either has to get the Donegal team up to shape or move to Kilkenny, Play senior hurling with a club down there and then hope that he is good enough to play on the Kilkenny hurling team(With the rules of the GAA you can play for the County that your current club is in, your man from antrim ciaran barr did it a few years ago and played with Dublin)

Nalced_irl

This old chestnut always gets alot of different views. I think the players more than deserve some sort of payment for their efforts. I just dont think it could work with the current structure of the GAA. Firstly you have to remember that AFL/Rugby are not county based but club based. For this reason, each team are paying top players to play for them. In GAA, you could have a great player from Kilkenny for example that could walk into most county teams not getting paid while someone playing in the first 15 for (insert weak team of choice, not gonna insult anyone ) who wouldnt have a hope in hell of getting into most teams is getting a wage. There are too many things involved that would cause alot of hassle imho which is unfortunate as i do think they deserve it.

Flukey

First of all, let's nail the great myth: Most GAA players are already professional. They are professional farmers, professional shopkeepers, professional teachers, professional salesmen... etc. As to paying them to play, absolutely not because it would destroy the game. No amount of money can get from a player what playing for the shirt, the club or the county can. That in a nutshell is what the GAA is all about and what makes the games we have so great. Our players play with as much passion, if not more, than any professional sportsman does. They can reach that level of passion, without getting a cent for it. Everyone starts to play sport for the enjoyment and love of it. Once they start getting paid, they lose all that. The GAA can't afford to pay the players, in financial terms but more importantly in costing us all the games we love.

Stealdo

I'd suggest some of the people throwing around the idea that all intercounty players should be paid between 30k and 80k should pop over to www.gaa.ie and download the associations accounts for last year which are freely available and see just what those amounts of money mean to the association. The fact that it just isn't possible on any meaningful scale makes it a moot point anyway, but in principal it would be the death of the association as it exists today.

I would hate to see the day that 1c of the associations money is re-directed from the clubs into the pocket of any player. I hate to see players who chase the pay for play idea looking to rob the very clubs that provided them with an outlet for their sport mostly from the age of 5 or 6. They are willing to deny those facilities to the next generation of kids.

Tons of volunteers have given up an uncalculable amount of time to give these guys the opportunity to become the players they are. They were nurtured, thought the value of being part of a team, kept out of trouble etc etc etc, and they made choices at every stage where the rest of us fell away to take their training to the next level and push to be the best they can. All power to them, but they owe the GAA a debt, not the other way around. It's horrible to think that they would then rather get paid for what they do, than allow footballs, sliotars and hurls to be provided to a bunch of 6 year olds. Anyone who doesn't think that this is the choice that you're talking about is kidding themselves. Those 80,200 people at every Dublin game during the summer are the lifeblood of every club from Cork to Donegal.

People need to realise that the GAA works for its players by providing them with the opportunity to play the game at all levels from an U8b team to the All Ireland finals; the players do not work for the GAA.

ibuprofen

Don't know what happened above , here is the post with all the font text

Stealdo, it's good to hear such an emotive response. I completely agree the GAA have done incredible things for football and hurling all over the country. A great example of their achievements and the ethos is

http://cavan.gaa.ie/cavanfansplayersearn.html

Kingspan-Breffni ParkThe ground has an overall capacity of about 20,000 with a 10,000 seated capacity. http://cavan.gaa.ie/
This is from a county with a population of 56,000,incredible!! A clear indication of how sucessful the GAA has been.

I do believe though that we need to move with the times but also try to keep the incredible ethos that exists.I think everyone has to ask themselves a few questions.

Will the AFL keep stealing our good young players and will this phenomon grow. Bearing in mind that the AFL has talked about including a sydney celtic team and already shows their matches on terrestrial tv here. Like any commercial business they're trying to expand their viewership and income

Do players deserve something for devoting their life to the sport. Giving up their social life and putting their careers on hold.

I believe that it is financially viable to pay the players asi have laid out in previous posts and perhaps a tri nations tournament could be set up between Australia Ireland and the USA to generate further revenue.

I would only propose a yearly payment of between 60,000 and 80,000 yearly salary per player paid on a pay per play basis with fringe players getting less. This would allow the players to train full time . The players playing for ireland could also get paid on a pay per play basis therefore keeping our best players in Ireland. The amateur ethos would still exist in club football .

The Chessplayer

eroo wrote: »

As someone already said, it isn't just hurling and football. There is handball, camogie, ladies football and rounders. How can you pay a senior hurling/football team and not pay a camogie/rounders team who are just as good in their chosen field?

I hate this begging bowl attitude in the GAA that everyone is a part of the same family.

I'd like to see a 15 to 20 strong pro hurling club league developed, with the draft system that they have in AFL. I'd rather see it run by an alternative authority than the GAA, who I believe have a monopoly on hurling - a monopoly which is destroying its potential popularity. Hurling would be much stronger outside the GAA family which I believe is rotten to the very core.

premierstone

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I hate this begging bowl attitude in the GAA that everyone is a part of the same family.

I'd like to see a 15 to 20 strong pro hurling club league developed, with the draft system that they have in AFL. I'd rather see it run by an alternative authority than the GAA, who I believe have a monopoly on hurling - a monopoly which is destroying its potential popularity. Hurling would be much stronger outside the GAA family which I believe is rotten to the very core.

I'v just read this post over and over trying to figure out what your on about and tbh I dont know whether to laugh or cry, this is either a terrible attempt at trolling or else your basic understanding of the GAA as a whole leaves alot to be desired.

So what your trying to suggest is remove Hurling from the GAA, and run it as a commercial league with no allegiances or loyalties Who to fcuk is going to finance this, where are you going to play the games, where will you get new players from in ten years time........... ah here im goin to stop now or i'll end up getting banned :mad::mad:

Pride Fighter

premierstone wrote: »

I'v just read this post over and over trying to figure out what your on about and tbh I dont know whether to laugh or cry, this is either a terrible attempt at trolling or else your basic understanding of the GAA as a whole leaves alot to be desired.

So what your trying to suggest is remove Hurling from the GAA, and run it as a commercial league with no allegiances or loyalties Who to fcuk is going to finance this, where are you going to play the games, where will you get new players from in ten years time........... ah here im goin to stop now or i'll end up getting banned :mad::mad:

You are not the one who should be banned. This guy is just a troll.

cruiserweight

Pride Fighter wrote: »

You are not the one who should be banned. This guy is just a troll.

premierstone wrote: »

I'v just read this post over and over trying to figure out what your on about and tbh I dont know whether to laugh or cry, this is either a terrible attempt at trolling or else your basic understanding of the GAA as a whole leaves alot to be desired.

So what your trying to suggest is remove Hurling from the GAA, and run it as a commercial league with no allegiances or loyalties Who to fcuk is going to finance this, where are you going to play the games, where will you get new players from in ten years time........... ah here im goin to stop now or i'll end up getting banned :mad::mad:

He is entitled to an opinion, no matter how crazy. I have to agree with a lot of the points that premierstone makes though, seems like this crazy idea has little merit unless the poster wants to expand on his idea.

Stealdo

Ibuprofen - thanks for your PM

In response - It's not that I disagree that players deserve something for their efforts. I think the difference between your position on this and mine is where we would focus our thoughts when it comes to what the most important aspect of the GAA is. For me it's the clubs. From the nursuries all the way to Senior including the U16C teams and the Junior 8's. The clubs provide something to their local communities that you could search the world and fail to find anything that comes close to it. Just look at the relative importance of your local club to the GAA versus that of your local soccer or rugby club. Equally I don't believe that the amateur ethos of the GAA means playing for the jersey, or putting in a lot of effort for no reward. It means that the money generated throughout the association is re-distributed to where it belongs. With the grass roots clubs.

It's true that the IRFU has managed to succesfully create a professional arm in a country that can't support professional sport but talk to someone involved in any of the 'major' rugby clubs competing in the AIL and ask them what that 'success' has done for them. The IRFU has created 4 professional teams nationally, two of which are reasonably successful, but to the detrement of the club game. One of these lives on a shoestring budget and is constantly fighting the possibility of losing its funding. The last 3 winners of the league of Ireland have gone to the brink of non-existance within the last couple of years. But for a UEFA licensing issue forcing them to affiliate an underage club these clubs would have no presence or input in their local communities.
The lessons to be learned from the above is that professional sport on any large scale is unsustainable in Ireland.

Putting that to one side, maintaining the network of clubs and the ability of them to play a role in the development of our young people and our communities is far more important to me than the standard of intercounty football on offer in Croke Park in September. The players who play there have made choices all the way along their careers to push themselves to the level they got to and all the power in the world to them I am very grateful for the entertainment and the thrills they give us every year, but they made their choice to do it. They are very well looked after in places with jobs, endorsements, the government grant scheme etc. This obviously favours the higher profile players but then so would any feasible payment scheme, no one is ever going to get €60 - €80k a year to play football with Carlow. Equally something I hate to hear is comments from the same people in the upper echelons of the GAA who espouse this amateur ethos talking about ways to curb player defection to Australia. Again in my opinion if they are good enough, let them go, why begrudge them the chance to make a living out of being an athlete. If the GAA helped to make them the athlete that they are then that's something we should be proud of not appauled by. What I don't think we should accept is the idea that the very clubs that made them who they are should be the thing to suffer in order to pay them to do something no one ever asked them to do.

A quick calculation based on 33 Football teams and 12 Hurling teams competing at tier 1, only paying 20 players each would cost about 70 million euro per year. That money doesn't exist today, and I don't see how you can generate it. And even if you did, it wouldn't be dependant on paid players and therefore I'll argue that it would be better spent elsewhere.

I don't believe that the GAA needs to be saved from professional soccer, rugby or the AFL. The AFL are only interested in a small number of individual players, the GAA is much bigger than that. It needs to be in a position to compete with Soccer and Rugby at grass roots level in the schools and in the clubs. The only way to ensure that this happens is to ensure that as much funding as possible is available to those clubs and to those schools to attract the yound players.

The Chessplayer

premierstone wrote: »

I'v just read this post over and over trying to figure out what your on about and tbh I dont know whether to laugh or cry, this is either a terrible attempt at trolling or else your basic understanding of the GAA as a whole leaves alot to be desired.

So what your trying to suggest is remove Hurling from the GAA, and run it as a commercial league with no allegiances or loyalties Who to fcuk is going to finance this, where are you going to play the games, where will you get new players from in ten years time........... ah here im goin to stop now or i'll end up getting banned :mad::mad:

I think the decision makers in the GAA are total plonkers. People keep going on about competition from football and rugby, but the GAA is its own worst enemy. Mad as it might sound, but I'd say a rival hurling league would, given time, do really well.

"No allegiance or loyalties" is a completely redundant point. A commerical league would be better and stronger. Loyalties develop over time, as they did within the GAA when it started. Local clubs will always exist. At the end of the day hurling should be about hurling - it shouldn't be bogged down by all this homespun guff.

premierstone

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I think the decision makers in the GAA are total plonkers. People keep going on about competition from football and rugby, but the GAA is its own worst enemy. Mad as it might sound, but I'd say a rival hurling league would, given time, do really well.

"No allegiance or loyalties" is a completely redundant point. A commerical league would be better and stronger. Loyalties develop over time, as they did within the GAA when it started. Local clubs will always exist. At the end of the day hurling should be about hurling - it shouldn't be bogged down by all this homespun guff.

You havent answered any of my questions on the practicality of this -

1. You suggested a league of 20 teams, so based on 30 players per panel thats 600 players per year that will need paying, if the players are been paid managers, referees, physios etc will all have to be paid whos going to finance this??

2. Where would these games be played, they would need to purchase 20 sites and build 20 stadiums (you do realise that the GAA own the grounds where hurling is currently played)?

3. You refer to it as a ''rival hurling league'' - a rival to what, hurling???

4. What exactly is all this homespun guff that you talk of??

The Chessplayer

premierstone wrote: »

You havent answered any of my questions on the practicality of this -

1. You suggested a league of 20 teams, so based on 30 players per panel thats 600 players per year that will need paying, if the players are been paid managers, referees, physios etc will all have to be paid whos going to finance this??

2. Where would these games be played, they would need to purchase 20 sites and build 20 stadiums (you do realise that the GAA own the grounds where hurling is currently played)?

3. You refer to it as a ''rival hurling league'' - a rival to what, hurling???

4. What exactly is all this homespun guff that you talk of??

1. Paying customers like you.
2. I have no idea. Roman Abramovich, the Sultan of Brunei?
3. Rival to the old codgers like Nicky Brennan and the comedy act that is the central council.
4. Homespun guff: crap like "if you pay the best players in football or hurling then you have to pay the camogie players etc.", or the spurious, ever-present fallback that pay for play will detract from commitment and "what it means to put the shirt on". Straight out of an AIB Club championships TV ad...I'm reaching for a bucket.

The one thing we can all agree on is that the GAA have left Hurling in an awful state and needs heavy handed action. Get the chessplayer on Central Council and he will roll a few heads.

premierstone

The Chessplayer wrote: »

1. Paying customers like you.
2. I have no idea. Roman Abramovich, the Sultan of Brunei?
3. Rival to the old codgers like Nicky Brennan and the comedy act that is the central council.
4. Homespun guff: crap like "if you pay the best players in football or hurling then you have to pay the camogie players etc.", or the spurious, ever-present fallback that pay for play will detract from commitment and "what it means to put the shirt on". Straight out of an AIB Club championships TV ad...I'm reaching for a bucket.

The one thing we can all agree on is that the GAA have left Hurling in an awful state and needs heavy handed action. Get the chessplayer on Central Council and he will roll a few heads.

Nice post, I'v highlighted the one piece of sense I could find in it!

smashey

Right guys, deep breaths, count to ten and calm down.

neil_hosey

have to say i agree with everyone here in one way or another. I think a good way of approaching this would be paying by game. League games would be paid the same throughout, and as teams progressed further in their respective championships the amount received by players would increase.

the only problem being it allows the better teams to get paid more (more chance of reaching champ.ship finals etc) , which may or may not be fair or follow the ethos of what the GAA stands for.

Benedict XVI

ibuprofen wrote: »

I know this will be a very controversial topic and one people will feel strongly about but I think one well worth talking about so no spoilers please.

With Australian scouts coming over from the AFL I believe we need to react. These players are a cheap alternative for the afl teams so i'd say that more and more scouts will be coming over from various AFL clubs. The young irish players are going over for 20000 on a trial contract which is only a few grand above min wage.

Something similar happened between rugby and rugby league (Australian rugby). With the help of sky sports rugby league became professional . At the time rugby union was still amateur and alot of it's best players changed codes and made what seemed a superior brand of rugby (rugby league). Long story short, rugby union was forced into professionalism and is now the preeminent rugby code.

I believe we should pay our players at county level. They could be payed a set wage that is the same in every county. I would suggest around 80000 for a first team player with fringe players on 30000 and then payed extra per match they play in. This would be enough for players to train full time. This could be given in the form of a car for example which the GAA could buy in bulk directly from car manafacturers at a good price.

I would say this would cost around 2,000,000 € all in ,per county ,per code. Not every county plays both hurling and football , There will be coaches and physios etc that need to be payed too. The bigger counties will definitely be subsidising the less populated counties. But considering gate receipts alone Dublin would more than cover a counties costs in one game similar to Cork in Pairc Ui Caoimh. Even Donegal with two games in Ballybuffet would have made around a million in gate receipts.

The GAA already pay officials and administrators so why not reward the people we go to watch. They give up alot for the love of the game.

Firstly i think rugby union wehnt professional becasue the southern unions were pro in all but name by the mid 90s, and professional Rugby League has been around for much lonfer than sky sports.

As for the GAA going pro it would never work. There is not the critical mass of consumers in Ireland to generate enough revenue to keep more than a handful of teams goimg on a pro basis.

Again you can look at rugby, there are now only four clubs in Ireland that get any sort of national attention because of professionalism, all the others are way down the pecking order.

smashey

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Again you can look at rugby, there are now only four clubs in Ireland that get any sort of national attention because of professionalism, all the others are way down the pecking order.

They would be the four provinces rather than clubs and they get funding from the IRFU as well as their own commercial activities. The club scene is completely different.

Benedict XVI

smashey wrote: »

They would be the four provinces rather than clubs and they get funding from the IRFU as well as their own commercial activities. The club scene is completely different.

Clubs. teams, provinces what ever you want to call them, the essential fact is that there are only 4 rugby teams that are professional and they are the only ones that get any real exposure.

The same would happen in GAA, therr is not enough money to go around to support more than 5 or 6 teams.

In football you may have the follwing breakdown of teams.
2 X Munster
1 X Connaught
2 X Leinster
1 X Ulster

And what sort competition would they play ?, there is no way the non professional teams could compete with the 6 above, so they would have to play each other, that would become fairly stale fairly quick.

premierstone

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Clubs. teams, provinces what ever you want to call them, the essential fact is that there are only 4 rugby teams that are professional and they are the only ones that get any real exposure.

The same would happen in GAA, therr is not enough money to go around to support more than 5 or 6 teams.

In football you may have the follwing breakdown of teams.
2 X Munster
1 X Connaught
2 X Leinster
1 X Ulster

And what sort competition would they play ?, there is no way the non professional teams could compete with the 6 above, so they would have to play each other, that would become fairly stale fairly quick.

Spot on, and in fact in Rugby only two of these professional teams are in reality competitive and get the lions share of the funding

The Chessplayer

I'd say Hurling could support semi-pro teams from the following:

5/6 clubs in Munster
1 in Galway
2 in Dublin
1 in Belfast
3 or 4 Leinster clubs
Possibly 1 other club for Ulster-Connacht region

You always hear non-gaa people going on about how great hurling is etc., but they don't follow it because they are not in touch with the whole county scene or aren't affiliated to a club...or their county is crap at hurling (i.e. 20 counties are more or less crap at the game).

Even among gaa-people, alot of people are fair weather fans, that only really connect with what's going on for the last few rounds of the All-Ireland...and there's nothing wrong with that. There is huge potential that simply isn't being tapped into.

homerjay2005

lads and ladies, this country cannot and never will, sustain a professional sport. paying players will see the same thing happen to many counties, as is currently happening in soccer - clubs in massive debt.

i read before, that gaa counties are 20million in debt, enough said on the topic.

rugby is only paying a handfull of players, these are the top players in province and country.


the gaa is our nationa sport, as to how un educated and naive people are, especially on here at times, is baffling. i dare suggest that alot of people on here have never seen finances of a gaa club or a county board broken down. they only look at a national bank balance of a few million quid a year that comes from full attendances in croker. shock horror lads,theres more to the gaa than croke park.

evil-monkey

i've said it before, i'll say it again. it would kill the club game.

ibuprofen

Not to get off the point too much but union were getting their best players taken by league because they could pay higher wages. A situation that they have managed to reverse. The GAA are in a similar situation now and need to react .

Hurling and football can go professional!!
Dublin had five matches this year. With an average of about 3 million ticket revenue per game that makes 15 million . Cork who have a 60,000 capacity stadium and have a good hurling and football team ( more games and ticket revenue) and would have had at least a similar revenue from ticket sales alone.

With the revenue of 30,000,000 generated from the aforementioned teams ticket sales , 45 county teams (not all counties have both codes competing) would receive 666,666,666 giving approx €30,000 to 15 first team players and €15,000 to another 15 players per county. That is if no other county makes any revenue………

In fact every county would only have to have 26,667 paying spectators through the turnstyles in a season paying €25 to make €666,666 .Easily attainable by any county. Donegal for example had two matches in Ballyboffet this year that had a combined attendance of app. 36,000 therefore making ticket sales of €900,000.

This doesn’t even take into account tv revenues, sponsorship, jersey sales and commercial revenues at stadiums around the country and only accounts for two county teams tickets sales. So I would like to put to bed for once and for all the notion that the players can’t get paid ……

p.s. A 20 million debt is chump change to the GAA considering Croke Park alone earns a revenue of 34 million a year. Sponsorship is about 8-9 million for hurling and football and tv rights earn a revenue of 23 million app.

ibuprofen

Not to get off the point too much but union were getting their best players taken by league because they could pay higher wages. A situation that they have managed to reverse. The GAA are in a similar situation now and need to react .

Hurling and football can go professional!!
Dublin had five matches this year. With an average of about 3 million ticket revenue per game that makes 15 million . Cork who have a 60,000 capacity stadium and have a good hurling and football team ( more games and ticket revenue) and would have had at least a similar revenue from ticket sales alone.

With the revenue of 30,000,000 generated from the aforementioned teams ticket sales , 45 county teams (not all counties have both codes competing) would receive 666,666,666 giving approx €30,000 to 15 first team players and €15,000 to another 15 players per county. That is if no other county makes any revenue………

In fact every county would only have to have 26,667 paying spectators through the turnstyles in a season paying €25 to make €666,666 .Easily attainable by any county. Donegal for example had two matches in Ballyboffet this year that had a combined attendance of app. 36,000 therefore making ticket sales of €900,000.

This doesn’t even take into account tv revenues, sponsorship, jersey sales and commercial revenues at stadiums around the country and only accounts for two county teams tickets sales. So I would like to put to bed for once and for all the notion that the players can’t get paid …

p.s. A 20 million debt is chump change to the GAA considering Croke Park alone earns a revenue of 34 million a year. Sponsorship is about 8-9 million for hurling and football and tv rights earn a revenue of 23 million app.

The Chessplayer

One thing is for sure though, the 32 county set up has to go. Leitrim certainly won't be getting any crowds of 26k as mentioned above, seeing as not even that many people live in the whole county.

The Chessplayer

evil-monkey wrote: »

i've said it before, i'll say it again. it would kill the club game.

What are you basing this on? Do you think that regular people who play gaelic games would just disappear if the top tier went pro/semi-pro?

AFL is a good example of amateur clubs feeding a pro league.

homerjay2005

good lord ibuprofen, can you edit your posts please, i cant understand a word in them, especially the first one. i,if i was half arsed, could rip apart those figures in one go and add to that 20 million debt, not improve it. your putting nothing to bed im afraid.


anyway, yourself and the chessplayer are living in la la land if you think your arguments make sense. as i have already said already, the gaa is not about what you want, its about over 100 years of history. ireland cannot and will never, be able to properly sustain a proper professional organisation.

evil-monkey

The Chessplayer wrote: »

What are you basing this on? Do you think that regular people who play gaelic games would just disappear if the top tier went pro/semi-pro?

AFL is a good example of amateur clubs feeding a pro league.

why develop players to be the best they could be, only for them then to be taken off you. take Newtownshandrum in Cork. 3 or so years ago, half the team would have been gone, destroying a team that was in the making for years. if players are on 50k contracts with their counties, they're not going to be allowed play for the clubs.

and another point that i always harp back to, what are these guys supposed to do when they hit retirement age?? making 50 - 80k a year for 10 or so years is not enough to live off of with another 30-odd years left before retirement.

Agus

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Leitrim certainly won't be getting any crowds of 26k as mentioned above, seeing as not even that many people live in the whole county.

Actually, Leitrim's population in the 2006 census was 28,837 so there are that many in the county. But it's true they wouldn't be getting crowds of 26k.

JazzyJ

ibuprofen wrote: »

Not to get off the point too much but union were getting their best players taken by league because they could pay higher wages. A situation that they have managed to reverse. The GAA are in a similar situation now and need to react .

Hurling and football can go professional!!
Dublin had five matches this year. With an average of about 3 million ticket revenue per game that makes 15 million . Cork who have a 60,000 capacity stadium and have a good hurling and football team ( more games and ticket revenue) and would have had at least a similar revenue from ticket sales alone.

With the revenue of 30,000,000 generated from the aforementioned teams ticket sales , 45 county teams (not all counties have both codes competing) would receive 666,666,666 giving approx €30,000 to 15 first team players and €15,000 to another 15 players per county. That is if no other county makes any revenue………

In fact every county would only have to have 26,667 paying spectators through the turnstyles in a season paying €25 to make €666,666 .Easily attainable by any county. Donegal for example had two matches in Ballyboffet this year that had a combined attendance of app. 36,000 therefore making ticket sales of €900,000.

This doesn’t even take into account tv revenues, sponsorship, jersey sales and commercial revenues at stadiums around the country and only accounts for two county teams tickets sales. So I would like to put to bed for once and for all the notion that the players can’t get paid …

p.s. A 20 million debt is chump change to the GAA considering Croke Park alone earns a revenue of 34 million a year. Sponsorship is about 8-9 million for hurling and football and tv rights earn a revenue of 23 million app.

You're forgetting the expenses that the GAA has to incur. Just because there's €31m in gate receipts doesn't mean that its money freely available to spend. The central council ran an operating surplus of almost €20m last year in total, which includes €7.5m for the temporary rental of Croke Park to the IRFU/FAI.

Do you expect this €20m to be made solely for the payment of players, and screw the rest of the clubs/county boards? Almost all that surplus from last year has ploughed back into the grassroots of the game to help build infrastructure. Its this continued investment back into clubs that provides for the current level of facilities that we have today. Taking this investment away from the clubs would really begin the death of the local club.

If one were to forget about the clubs and county boards for a second, then for the 45 teams that compete in the All-Ireland series (hurling and football) and looking at 30 players per panel, there would be an average of around €15,000 per player being made available. Take away the €7.5m when Lansdowne Road is complete and you've a lot less.

I really can't see where the money is going to come from.

ibuprofen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

good lord ibuprofen, can you edit your posts please, i cant understand a word in them, especially the first one. i,if i was half arsed, could rip apart those figures in one go and add to that 20 million debt, not improve it. your putting nothing to bed im afraid.


anyway, yourself and the chessplayer are living in la la land if you think your arguments make sense. as i have already said already, the gaa is not about what you want, its about over 100 years of history. ireland cannot and will never, be able to properly sustain a proper professional organisation.

Yes the first post is in a mess. I'm hoping some good natured moderator will remove it for me...:)

As for you not understaning the second cleaned up post. Well mmmm..
By all means rip the figures apart ,they'll stand up. They're only for two counties gate receipts .... The fact is that counties like Leitrim that may or may not cover their required wages is inconsequential as other counties gate reciepts would more than cover it.

By the way the GAA owed 25 million as of March 2006 . They made 30.2 million from croke park in 2006.............. Enough said....

Professionalism is plausible and I have proposed a system that keeps the county team system in place and keeps the GAA ethos. The GAA is also about the present and I believe professionalism is necessary to bring it through the next 100 years..