Library Opening Hours

bruff

What's going on?

As I understand it Berkely Libary was only open for 4 hours this Saturday, and not opening at all on Sunday?

Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

The Sports center has longer hours!

Someone please tell me I'm misinformed.

Boston

The sports center has longer hours because its not been run somewhat like a business. You're not wrong about the Library hours, but they change throughout the year.

godtabh

bruff wrote: »

What's going on?

As I understand it Berkely Libary was only open for 4 hours this Saturday, and not opening at all on Sunday?

Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

The Sports center has longer hours!

Someone please tell me I'm misinformed.

Whats the point in having the library open on a Sunday at this time of the year when you would have at most a handful of people there?

Moorsy

How about because it's emm what that word again, oh yeh, a University.....There should be study space 24 hours so students can study whenever they feel like it. It doesn't matter if only a small number avail of it, it should be something that's automatically accepted and taken for granted in an educational institution.

duffman90210

Especially one thats in the top 50 worldwide. Disgraceful that this service isn't available to students.

Awayindahils

kearnsr wrote: »

Whats the point in having the library open on a Sunday at this time of the year when you would have at most a handful of people there?

I could certainly do with a library being open today. Great and all as studying in my room is, I find the library much better.

I think there is certainly a need for longer library hours all year long. Most college libraries have sunday opening hours and move closer to 24 hour opening towards exam time. Trinity library hours are a still a joke, despite a massive improvement last year with Sunday opening beginning in Hilary Term.

I thought that the Sunday opening hours were supposed to begin in Michaelmus term this year. Obviously not.

godtabh

So if they diverted the cost of opening the library on a sunday to cater for a handful of people from some department that would be cool?

The college isnt flush with money these days. Essential services should get priority. This isnt essential

Mark200

kearnsr wrote: »

So if they diverted the cost of opening the library on a sunday to cater for a handful of people from some department that would be cool?

The college isnt flush with money these days. Essential services should get priority. This isnt essential

I'm sure the cost of opening the library on a sunday isn't all that much that they can't afford to pay for it.

godtabh

Mark200 wrote: »

I'm sure the cost of opening the library on a sunday isn't all that much that they can't afford to pay for it.

If money wasnt an issue why isnt it open?

Even if they wanted to open they would have to divert money from some where else? Where would you divert it from?

Mark200

kearnsr wrote: »

If money wasnt an issue why isnt it open?

Even if they wanted to open they would have to divert money from some where else? Where would you divert it from?

So the TCD financial accounts are currently perfectly balanced and opening the library on a Sunday would destroy that?

Mark200

Mark200 wrote: »

So the TCD financial accounts are currently perfectly balanced and opening the library on a Sunday would destroy that?

Um, most colleges are either in a deficit or heading very sharply towards one. If you haven't heard the word 'cutback' in college yet, it's best to get used to it now.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/university-heads-warn-of-836444m-in-shortfalls-1494971.html

Personally I've always been in favour of some proper 24 hour study space.

godtabh

Isnt the Reading Room open 24 hours? But that could be possible for post grads only. I've never been there before

There's the 1937 reading room which used to be for both undergrads and postgrads, but it's for postgrads only now (changed before 2003 I believe). There is also the '24 hour reading room' which, if it's the same, is really just a computer room with bad lighting and around 2 or 3 desks. By proper reading room I'm talking about space for around 100 + students.

Of course in a place in the centre of a city space is going to be a problem.

godtabh

Myth wrote: »

Of course in a place in the centre of a city space is going to be a problem.

And hard to monitor for proper use

bruff

I think it depends on how you come to this issue.

As Adults, most students have other issues and obligations outside of college life. There are some that are pure students, and for them it's only a mild frustration, but for others it can be the difference between getting the work done or not.

If you're working part time in the evenings, the weekends might be the only time during the week when you can get solid work done. In my opinion the College should oblige the students by opening their Libary 24 hours, 7 days a week. Otherwise, it's basically discriminating against students who have other obligations.

Also, a 24 hour library sets the tone. It shows to the students that the college is there to help them achieve their academic goals, and will do nothing to hinder them.

Obviously funding has the last say, but as I said in my first post - there is no reason that the Sports center has longer hours. I use both the library and the Sports Center, but the difference is that I need the library, while the Sports Center is just a terrific conveniance.

Must Universities I've visited have 24 hour libraries, and treat that as a standard. What I don't understand is why Trinity doesn't hire some of the Students looking for evening jobs, and get them to work those wee midnight hours? If you don't have a lecture till 3pm, you can probably stay awake till pretty late, especially those who live on Campus.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue.

leninbenjamin

pffft... libraries are oldschool. there's this thing called the internet now. I haven't had to actually go get a hardcopy of a book in about a year.

bruff

bruff wrote: »

I think it depends on how you come to this issue.

As Adults, most students have other issues and obligations outside of college life. There are some that are pure students, and for them it's only a mild frustration, but for others it can be the difference between getting the work done or not.

If you're working part time in the evenings, the weekends might be the only time during the week when you can get solid work done. In my opinion the College should oblige the students by opening their Libary 24 hours, 7 days a week. Otherwise, it's basically discriminating against students who have other obligations.

Also, a 24 hour library sets the tone. It shows to the students that the college is there to help them achieve their academic goals, and will do nothing to hinder them.

Obviously funding has the last say, but as I said in my first post - there is no reason that the Sports center has longer hours. I use both the library and the Sports Center, but the difference is that I need the library, while the Sports Center is just a terrific conveniance.

Must Universities I've visited have 24 hour libraries, and treat that as a standard. What I don't understand is why Trinity doesn't hire some of the Students looking for evening jobs, and get them to work those wee midnight hours? If you don't have a lecture till 3pm, you can probably stay awake till pretty late, especially those who live on Campus.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue.

Back to the sports centre, going on memory it gets its funding from rather different places than the library. Remember that you are paying over and above what the college takes in normally to use the sports centre.

Time Magazine

If you want the library to stay open for longer, that's grand. Pay for it using fees.

Boston

The Economist wrote: »

If you want the library to stay open for longer, that's grand. Pay for it using fees.

Thats assumes any fees would be in addition to government funding rather then simply becomes an alternative source for what is current being paid for by the state. As it stands the registration fee is being used to make up for the shortfall and year on year the short fall is getting larger and larger.

Boston

bruff wrote: »

Obviously funding has the last say, but as I said in my first post - there is no reason that the Sports center has longer hours. I use both the library and the Sports Center, but the difference is that I need the library, while the Sports Center is just a terrific conveniance.

It isn't a case of one versus the other. Also, the marginal cost of keep the sport center open for 6 hours on a Sunday would be tiny compared to the marginal cost of keep the libraries open for the equivalent period. The response to this is often "well only open one library", problem is, everyone wants it to be their one, and everyone has a good reason why it should be "The Ham" or "The lecky", or "The usher" or whatever.

Mark200

leninbenjamin wrote: »

pffft... libraries are oldschool. there's this thing called the internet now. I haven't had to actually go get a hardcopy of a book in about a year.

So where can I find a quiet place for reading and studying on the internet?



Also, I found it interesting in today's Metro a little piece about salaries for top University staff going up by about 120% in the last few years

godtabh

Mark200 wrote: »

Also, I found it interesting in today's Metro a little piece about salaries for top University staff going up by about 120% in the last few years

Did that include Trinity?

So you would sacrifice teaching quality for a Sunday afternoon in the Library (reading between the lines)?

Tricity Bendix

leninbenjamin wrote: »

pffft... libraries are oldschool. there's this thing called the internet now. I haven't had to actually go get a hardcopy of a book in about a year.

Just on a technical note, it is the library that pays for and provides access to electronic material.

bruff wrote:

Must Universities I've visited have 24 hour libraries, and treat that as a standard.

Which libraries have you visited?

Boston wrote:

Also, the marginal cost of keep the sport center open for 6 hours on a Sunday would be tiny compared to the marginal cost of keep the libraries open for the equivalent period.

Why so?


Tho only library I know of in Ireland that provides anything close to 24 hour service is UCD, and I expect that service could be cut back over the course of the next year.

Boston

b.ie curious wrote: »

Why so?

Staff costs. 3 staff on duty in the sports center on a Sunday under new, modern wage agreements. You need many times that number to open the libraries, including people to the shelving and security.

Peslo

Boston wrote: »

Staff costs. 3 staff on duty in the sports center on a Sunday under new, modern wage agreements. You need many times that number to open the libraries, including people to the shelving and security.

Costs of keeping a swimming pool running plus steam room, sauna, hot water for showers....?

Boston

Is what exactly Peslo?

Peslo

Boston wrote: »

Is what exactly Peslo?

Is more or less than the cost of having....

that number [of staff] to open the libraries, including people to the shelving and security

???

Boston

So a useless comment, I see.

Peslo

Boston wrote: »

So a useless comment, I see.

Excuse you, don't be so obnoxious!!

You said that "the cost of keep the sport center open for 6 hours on a Sunday would be tiny compared to the marginal cost of keep the libraries open for the equivalent period" merely based on staff costs! I'm inclined, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, to disagree, because you did not take into account the other operating costs that the sports center has.

The point being, It cant be SO expensive to run the library that they can't open it on a Sunday like the Sports Center.

So please, less of the condisendingism and douchebagness.

tnxbye.

Mark200

Boston wrote: »

So a useless comment, I see.

I work in a sportscentre and I can guarantee that the cost of just simply heating a swimming pool is far more than you have made out in your posts.

kearnsr wrote: »

Did that include Trinity?

So you would sacrifice teaching quality for a Sunday afternoon in the Library (reading between the lines)?

It didn't give names, it just said Ireland's top universities.

But presuming tcd is part of that, and presuming these guys are on fairly high wages, I think if they can afford to increase these wages by 120% over a few years then they can afford to open up a library a maximum of an extra 52 days a year

Tricity Bendix

Boston wrote: »

Staff costs. 3 staff on duty in the sports center on a Sunday under new, modern wage agreements. You need many times that number to open the libraries, including people to the shelving and security.

Actually, the only staff costs involved in opening the library on a sunday are shelving and security. The issue desk and the information desk aren't manned. It just acts as a study space.

Boston

Peslo wrote: »

The point being, It cant be SO expensive to run the library that they can't open it on a Sunday like the Sports Center.

You've nothing to support that claim.

You assume the cost of

A) Heating the sport center is greater then the cost of heating all the libraries. Given that the fact that the sports center is a new building and therefore likely to have a more efficient heating system and also has less floor space, this assumption is highly likely to be incorrect.

That the cost of a swimming pool depends on whether or not it is in use. Afaik they don't switch off those filters and pumps. So whether of not its in use for 6 hours on a Sunday is irrelevant to the cost.

C) Cost of sauna and steam room. Are these facilities even available on a Sunday? If so does their operation constitute and significant cost?

See Peslo, I may be wrong, but I'm able to present the reasoning behind my argument. You, on the other hand, can't provide any foundation for why you hold any opinion. If you are correct in something it is only through pure dumb luck.

Crash

iirc there were ongoing negotiations with the union concerning weekend opening hours etc. - which obviously is never going to help/

Boston

Mark200: How does that compare with the cost of heating say 20,000 square meters of library space? Do you think its more or less?

b.ie curious wrote: »

Actually, the only staff costs involved in opening the library on a sunday are shelving and security. The issue desk and the information desk aren't manned. It just acts as a study space.

Ok, so we're talking about a reduced service. Staffing costs would be less again if you assume only one library is opened.

IvyTheTerrible

Peslo wrote: »

Excuse you, don't be so obnoxious!!

You said that "the cost of keep the sport center open for 6 hours on a Sunday would be tiny compared to the marginal cost of keep the libraries open for the equivalent period" merely based on staff costs! I'm inclined, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, to disagree, because you did not take into account the other operating costs that the sports center has.

The point being, It cant be SO expensive to run the library that they can't open it on a Sunday like the Sports Center.

So please, less of the condisendingism and douchebagness.

tnxbye.

I don't know about costs for the sports centre (which I presume to be pretty high), but libraries are surprisingly costly to run. Apart from staff costs, you can pay 10000+ for a subscription to ONE major journal.

Mark200

Boston wrote: »

That the cost of a swimming pool depends on whether or not it is in use. Afaik they don't switch off those filters and pumps. So whether of not its in use for 6 hours on a Sunday is irrelevant to the cost.

What do you mean they don't turn them off. Are they left on all night?

Boston wrote: »

See Peslo, I may be wrong

At least you're aware

Boston wrote: »

Mark200: How does that compare with the cost of heating say 20,000 square meters of library space? Do you think its more or less?

A lot more.....

Boston

I'm very aware. The buildings office would be the only ones who could make a meaningful statement as to the cost of operating different buildings.

My basic knowledge of environmental engineering tells me they wouldn't allow the water in the pool to stop moving around. So maybe they operate at lower revolutions during the night. I doubt it costs more to heat a pool the size of the one in trinity then it does to heat all the library space in trinity but maybe.

Mark200

Boston wrote: »

I'm very aware. The buildings office would be the only ones who could make a meaningful statement as to the cost of operating different buildings.

My basic knowledge of environmental engineering tells me they wouldn't allow the water in the pool to stop moving around. So maybe they operate at lower revolutions during the night. I doubt it costs more to heat a pool the size of the one in trinity then it does to heat all the library space in trinity but maybe.

Well the fact that they have to ensure that the water is within a certain temperature at all times....whereas in the library the temperature doesn't really matter as long as you can live

Boston

At all times? So even when not in use at the weekend? If that's the case then there is no additional marginal cost from operating the pool at the weekend.

So assuming they do maintain an average of 18C, over the area in question, that isn't cheep.

All that said, given I'm often around campus at the weekend, its pretty standard not to turn off the heating at the weekends. Dunlop house and the llyod for instance.

Mark200

Boston wrote: »

At all times? So even when not in use at the weekend? If that's the case then there is no additional marginal cost from operating the pool at the weekend.

So assuming they do maintain an average of 18C, over the area in question, that isn't cheep.

No, when in use they maintain a constant temperature. The process of actually heating up the pool in the mornings is the most expensive part, something which they'd save on if they didn't open on Sundays

Unshelved

To get back to the Library, the minimal costs are light, heat, insurance and security - and that's with unstaffed counters. Last year, when the BLU opened on Sundays during Hilary Term, there was an average of about 200 readers per day - and some days it was as low as 90. Really, that's a tiny proportion of student numbers, so if it was decided that cutbacks need to be made, it's not really surprising that that's where they're going to hit.

Most students agree that they would like the Libraries open 24/7. However in reality the actual demand for services outside core hours and days is very low. UCD opened their Library last St. Patrick's Day and they had a total number of 17 students using the building over the day - so they'll probably re-think that one.

It's up to the Library to offer the best service to the most students. While we would like in principle to open on Sundays and around the clock, in practice it's not good use of the Library budget if the take-up is low.

Crash

actually, unshelved, seeing as you'd have a reasonable idea on numbers etc. - which would you see being of more use to a larger number of students

1)opening on sundays.
2)Opening til midnight.

Something i've always wondered - I know the second would have benefited me significantly more throughout college than the first.

Boston

Mark200 wrote: »

No, when in use they maintain a constant temperature. The process of actually heating up the pool in the mornings is the most expensive part, something which they'd save on if they didn't open on Sundays

true

Unshelved

actually, unshelved, seeing as you'd have a reasonable idea on numbers etc. - which would you see being of more use to a larger number of students

1)opening on sundays.
2)Opening til midnight.

Something i've always wondered - I know the second would have benefited me significantly more throughout college than the first.

Possibly opening until midnight, but personally, I'm not convinced of the value of either, judging by past numbers who have used the Libraries on Sundays and by the small amount of people who use the Libraries after 8pm on weekdays. Just my opinion.

4Xcut

Would it not be better to leave the openoing hours as they are now and then use the extra money(if there is any) to give opening to midnight and 9-6 on saturday and sunday opening around exam time?

Posting from the library now and there are very few people in at this hour indeed.

Mark200

What kind of opening times are there usually around exam times?

There are extended hours nearer exams anyway - both saturday & sunday opening. If not all day at least 9 hours each day iirc.

Crash

Unshelved wrote:

Possibly opening until midnight, but personally, I'm not convinced of the value of either, judging by past numbers who have used the Libraries on Sundays and by the small amount of people who use the Libraries after 8pm on weekdays. Just my opinion.

Don't worry not expecting you to answer for the administration I know quite well where my preference would lie but as to whether either is actually cost effective is a very different issue.

I think myself and Myth have always agreed that rather than giving students access to books, the real need is for study space that is open 24 hours on campus. When in final year, I had the computer science labs which made a HUGE difference to how much I got done and my level of study. I don't even want to think of what my results would have been like if I didn't have somewhere 1)that was 24 hours and 2) that didnt offer a space for group study.

In fact, the DCU library has great facilities for the second, having built group rooms into the centre of their library for use for projects just like that. I think those two are the major ones that are severely lacking within Trinity. 24/7 library opening should only be considered after those have been sorted.

Unshelved

There's a Group Study Room in the Hamilton Library - you can book it at the Issue Desk. There are none in the BLU Complex - something of an oversight.

Degsy

The library is open from 9.30amd to 9.45 pm..nearly 12 hours a day.
We STILL get people who've been in the pub all evening coming in at 10pm looking to borrow books.
We open on sundays during exam times and almost nobody bothers to come in.
If we had 24/7 access it would be a complete waste of money.

Peslo

Just sent an email to Mr. Robin Adams to see what are the Library's opening hours for tomorrow.