Michael Viney article in Saturdays Irish Times 4/10/2008 Why we chose a wind farm

Oldtree

from what I can gather the Pumped Hydro Energy Storage PHES does not appear to be a very good idea. Tom Raftery has this to say:

http://www.tomrafteryit.net/using-energy-demand-management-to-increase-wind-energy-in-ireland/

1. Cost - Turlough Hill cost £20m to build in 1968. An equivalent new pumped hydro storage site would cost billions to build. And Turlough Hill can only store a few hours worth of electricity. This is of no use when you have more than a few hours of calm and
2. Environmental - pumped hydro storage is, at best, 75% efficient. The environmental cost (carbon footprint) of building a pumped hydro site, with enough storage capacity to meet our needs, would far outweigh the benefit.

http://lowerfootprint.com/you-cant-store-wind-energy-easily/

Turlough Hill took six years to build between 1968 and 1974. Today that cost would be closer to €20bn and it would take considerably longer than six years to build due to the forests of planning legislation which has been passed in the meantime. Turlough Hill stores enough energy to power the country for approximately seven minutes so we’d need to build a little over 200 more Turlough hills to store enough power to run the country for one day. Even if money were no object, where are we going to find 200 hills with lakes atop?

Tom's stats are interesting but he is not aware of Organic Power's inspired :eek: notion of digging out mountains to act as PHESs!!!!!!!! Turlough Hill has four of six generators fitted and can generate 292 megawatts, within one minute of startup. Ariel and other pictures here to get an idea:

http://www-cenerg.cma.fr/more-care/activities/turlough_hill/turlough_hill.html

The "Pumped Hydro Energy Storage to Support Wind Energy Penetration in Ireland" April 2006 publication by The Sustainable Energy Research Group, University College Cork

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:priYqXWpKTwJ:www.ucc.ie/serg/pub/PS-R2.pdf+wind+energy+storage+hydro&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=ie

finishes by saying:

Further work is to be carried out on the economic impacts of pumped hydro energy storage. As the liberalised market operation and parameters are as yet uncertain, it is difficult to quantify definitively the benefits of installing such a system.

This does not inspire me with confidence. Why are we pushing forward with turbines, hell for leather, without proper research or information into the full system necessary to backup a wind generated power industry? Seems a bit like "for the sake of it".

muggyog

I feel I should interrupt this mutual backslapping regarding the inappropriate use of wind power to produce electricity in Ireland to bring some balance to the discussion. I agree totally that wind is not the "magic bullet" to the energy solution but it surely is has a major role in contributing to replacement to fossil fuel as a source of energy.

On the specific question of storing wind generated electricity there seems to be a biased interpretation of the facts. There is mention of the fact that at current prices 20 billion Euros would be necessary to build another Turlough Hill ( unsure where this figure is arrived at ) but no mention of advances in generator technology / techniques over the intervening 40 years. Whatever the cost surely building a storage facility would be better than building an equivalent fossil fuel plant. Maybe a more cost effective solution would be a nuclear power plant? I also notice Tom Raftery did not respond to the alternative compressed air storage option which he initially discarded as unusable but was corrected by an American contributor. The "scathing" conclusion of the Sustainable Energy Research Group

Further work is to be carried out on the economic impacts of pumped hydro energy storage. As the liberalised market operation and parameters are as yet uncertain, it is difficult to quantify definitively the benefits of installing such a system.

is hardly a damming indictment of the technology.

Wind power has a long way to go in the area of renewable energy and would need contributions from other renewables. The siting of masts is a different issue and only clouds the usefulness of the technology ( should RTE transmitters be removed from their mountain locations?).

Oldtree

My origional rant was about the siting of the turbines, and also storage lakes on mountains, on or near SACs and NHAs and is somthing i feel very strongly about. The usefulness of industrial scale of wind generated power is as you say, another issue, however i do see the benefits versus current power stations. From a small amount of research, there are a lot of questions that i would like answered, but i have not closed my mind off to wind generated power.

I did not see the conclusion of the Sustainable Energy Research Group as scathing only questioning. Their report does indicate that "The round-trip efficiency of such a system is generally in the order of 70-80%". so there will still be huge losses of energy. I do not understand, or not know enough about, the other methods of storage to adequately discuss them, but would welcome any simple descriptions of ones that you feel are worthwhile. I don't know where tom rafferty got his figures, but I can imagine that the cost of such a modern storage project would be large by any standards.

Maby a more cost effective option would be a nuclear power station, but again back to my original point of the hidden costs, such as landscape value, environmental heritage and security, peace of mind, etc, all of which do not form part of any financial budget. And not to mention that it will always be the lowest quote that gets the job of doing the construction, not very comforting.

I feel I should say that I would be very happy to install a small wind turbine outside my house, provided it was quiet and my neighbours did not mind. I would be happy to export the extra power to the grid provided it was offset directly by my ESB meter. The only thing stoping me at the moment is that I do not like batteries. A while back I came across a direct method of converting the wind energy to hot water, without batteries, which I realy like the idea of, but cannot find the information again, and the question of the excess power still would exist.

RTE transmitters should be removed from their mountain locations if they are in a SAC or NHA, that is unlikly to happen, but further masts should be prevented at such locations and other options sought.

Wind power has a long way to go, and there are many questions that need to be asked and answered. We need to avoid another electronic voting fiasco.

badolepuddytat

Old Tree.

May i start by commending your research, diligence, facts and backing up your arguments with facts! refreshing!

I have a couple of points.
1. siting of windfarms should be done carefully and considerately as they do have an environmental impact. It is possible to build one in an SPA / SAC, but only if it does not affect the purpose of the protection.

2. Noise. There are alot of myths going around about noise from wind turbines. Visit the dundalk IT campus and you have to be within 80m of the turbine to hear it over the background urban noise. I have reviewed noise studies, that were completed using microphones etc. there is very little increase in noise from WTs at 100m never mind 300+. modern WT have noise abatement features that can decrease noise production in the event of conditions requiring it. Planing permission is usually subject to noise monitoring anyway.

3. Small scale Vs Large scale. Take a 2.3MW turbine (like the enercon-70 in enniscrone - 35% capacity factor). It produces 7 GWh per annum or so. that is 7,000,000 kWh or the equivalent in energy production of 1700 irish homes. Would you rather 1700 domestic wind turbines than one large scale? or in the event of larger domestic scale like a 5kw (20% capacity factor being very optimistic) - about one for every 2 houses or 850 of these.

4. storage research is ongoing and is not yet at sufficiently high round trip efficiency to be useful..... yet, it won't be too long though. An interconnector with the uk (500MW) in the pipeline will for all intents and purpose be the same for us in ireland, allowing a much higher wind penitration.

5. The irish Carbon intensity for electricity has fallen from 643 in 2005 to 602 in 2006 to 534 in 2007.... that is fairly significant and due to the increase in high efficiency gas plants and the growth of the wind sector. If we shut down moneypoint and used a high efficiency gas plant like huntstown it would fall by at least 20% by my estimation!

6. Urban wind generation would in my opinion be a great idea... all industrial estates >300m from houses would be a great idea. High efficiency large scale. Go visit dundalk IT. it is a real eye opener!

7. about myself. my job is to save energy & CO2 emmissons. I do some work for a windfarm project that will save 8400 tons of CO2 being emmitted or the equivalent of taking 2500 cars off the roads. I personally believe wind power is a good idea.... in the right place.

8. Your alternative for Ireland. A Nuclear plant in Bellacorrig, higher prices for putin's gas, lights out.... they are the only other alternatives as i see them.

Pgibson

slagger wrote: »

IYou have mentioned the old wind masts..

Every ACRE of rural Mayo is marred by electricity poles and telegraph poles.

They are as ugly as sin but the locals are so used to seeing them they don't even notice them.

On the other hand wind farms can look quite beautiful on hillsides.

Just as a lighthouse can look beautiful on a bay.

Lots of Nimbys in Mayo.

.

Pgibson

Oldtree wrote: »

RTE transmitters should be removed from their mountain locations if they are in a SAC or NHA, that is unlikly to happen, but further masts should be prevented at such locations and other options sought..

Such nonsense.

Examine this photograph:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/539120

The left-most mountain in that picture is "Cregg" in Connemara.

When RTE built a large mast on top of it in the 1970s everyone was delighted because RTE built a small access road up to the top.

And now everyone can go there on a fine day to see both Donegal and Kerry with one sweep of the head

The mast is still there. (Trust me..or go walk up!).

And transmitting.

Utterly unobtrusive.

Nobody has ever complained about it.

The NIMBYs and pseudo-environmentalists would never permit that mast to be built today.

.

Oldtree

Pgibson, it is good to know that you spoke to everybody and got everybodys opinions to base your sweeping statement on. I can only encourage you with the idea of correcting yesterdays errors and promote the idea of protecting our tomorrow. However you are right in that I no longer notice to poles everywhere here.

You badolepuddytat!! :D:p, Thank you for commenting, I am learning more every day.

1. Certainly possible, but has every other possible option been explored? and should we open this door? Mayo County Council Planning think not.
2. I know the noise is decreasing with advances within the industry but my experiences of noise monitoring, noise guidelines and planning permissions (quarrys) leaves a lot to be desired.
3. I think it would be important to see both small scale and large scale, getting everybody involved.
4. UK interconnector means we will be getting nuclear generated power too.
5. I didn't know that.
6. Yep
7. Agreed, in the right place.
8. Agreed, the alternatives are not great.

Pgibson

I notice that the Green pseuds never objected to the turning on of Christmas lights a month early in towns all over the country.

Never object to every church and chapel in the country being floodlight all night long.

Never object to every government buildings being floodlit all night long...and often the lights inside left on as well.

(The department of the Environment's headquarters is the second most over-floodlit building in the country..only Bunratty Castle is more grotesque.)

Never objected to Duchas floodlighting every single ancient monument in the country all night long.

I bet my bottom dollar the Green Party's headquarters is expensively floodlit all night long! (I concede I may be wrong on the last point.)

.

Oldtree

While I would not defend the lack of action by our political leaders, I would say that it is a difficult thing to be "all things to all men" and as with the telephone poles in mayo, many thing slip from our streams of awareness.

I would point you to my jellyfish story further up this thread. Now that you have become aware of something wasteful, why not do something about it. Start writing to TD's and councillors and the like, believe me it will make you feel a lot better that you are doing something, and you might achieve a positive outcome to your bugbear.

Oldtree

I came across the following in my search for enlightenment:

This site offers an argument against Prof David Bellamy's stance on windfarms, but appears to be from 2004: see:

http://www.futureenergy.org/infowindblmy.html

And this link is to the Moorsyde Wind Farm Action group and is their links page. Lots of both older and recent reference material to wade through: see:

http://www.moorsydeactiongroup.org.uk/links.html

From that page I am currently reading 'Tilting at Windmills: The economics of wind Power' by Professor David Simpson, The David Hume Institute (Occasional Papers, 65). (April, 2004) - "This paper asks whether the economic analysis of this source of energy really justifies such a major role and whether alternative policy options should be considered."

Oldtree

See here:

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=12947

about SWS Energy of Bandon, another lover of the bog/environment/landscape :mad::(:eek:

Anyone who wishes to object to the Loughan North proposal can do so, have a look here

http://www.noeastclarewindfarm.net/

Deadline for submissions is 30 January '09. Forward them to

Clare County Council, Aras Contae an Chlair, New Road, Ennis, Co. Clare.

Remember to include the planning application number 08-1950,
site address Loughaun North, Tulla, Co. Clare
and your full name and address
and the fee of 20 euro,
and your genuine planning concerns/reasons for refusal regarding this proposed development.

nuff said

slagger

Oldtree wrote: »

See here:

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=12947

about SWS Energy of Bandon, another lover of the bog/environment/landscape :mad::(:eek:

Anyone who wishes to object to the Loughan North proposal can do so, have a look here

http://www.noeastclarewindfarm.net/

Deadline for submissions is 30 January '09. Forward them to

Clare County Council, Aras Contae an Chlair, New Road, Ennis, Co. Clare.

Remember to include the planning application number 08-1950,
site address Loughaun North, Tulla, Co. Clare
and your full name and address
and the fee of 20 euro,
and your genuine planning concerns/reasons for refusal regarding this proposed development.

nuff said

I read that article on sunday. Its refreshing that the media are now reporting the ills of badly sited windfarms, which it should be said are the majority, as they are sited in upland areas to maximise outputs and profits for the developers at the expense of the environment.

Good to see notoeastwindfarm making reference to the General Adequacy Report 2009 - 2015 from eirgrid. It provides the evidence against windfarms on co2 mitigation and self sufficency!

Oldtree

the pdf for the Eirgrid GAR 2009-2015 can be viewed here:

http://www.eirgrid.com/EirgridPortal/uploads/Publications/GAR%202009-2015.pdf

Oldtree

An article in todays Irish Times entitled: Green energy sector feels chill wind of credit crunch. Here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0220/1224241479525.html

Says that: wind farm developers were having difficulty raising the cash they needed from banks to pursue their plans. Most of the applications for planning and licensing of wind farms come from small operators. These are ultimately hoping to add value by getting these projects through the initial stages before selling them on to bigger players. The bigger players have the resources to deliver the goods, but may not be necessarily interested in the initial development stages, which involve applying for planning, licensing and grid connection.

I do hope that this will lead to planning applications which would not be a waste of the company's money and be more likely to succeed, i.e. applications that are not in or near SAC's or NHA's or areas of a high landscape value, etc!

johnathan woss

slagger wrote: »

Is it true that as you increase windfarm penetration the amount of co2 emissions mitigated reaches saturation and any further wind generation has no effect in reducing conventional plant co2 emissions?

No that is not true.

As you increase windfarm penetration the capacity credit of wind power reaches a plateau and so you have to have a minimum level of conventional generation on the grid to ensure that there are no blackouts. This is because on a day where there is a very low level of wind then ALL the wind generators will have low output.

However, over the course of say a year, the more MW of wind generation you have installed the less actual MWh of electricity will be produced by conventional thermal plant, and the less your CO2 emissions will be.

Oldtree

Mayo County Council granted permission for a wind farm

http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mcc4/PlanningViewer/displayafile.asp?filenum=08617&la=1

An Bord Pleanala Refuses permission

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/231189.htm

reasoning

REASONS AND CONSIDERATIONS

The proposed development immediately adjoins Lough Hoe Bog candidate Special Area of Conservation and is located up gradient of the River Moy candidate Special Area of Conservation. It is policy of the planning authority as set out in Policy EHNH1 of the Mayo County Council Development Plan 2008 – 2014 to protect, enhance and conserve areas designated as candidate Special Areas of Conservation, Special Protection Areas and proposed Natural Heritage Areas listed in Appendix V of the plan. It is also a policy of the planning authority to implement Article 6 (3) of the EU Habitats Directive and to subject developments likely to impact on Natura 2000 or European Sites (Special Areas of Conservation and Special Protection Areas) to appropriate assessment. The Board is not satisfied on the basis of the information contained in the planning application, Environmental Impact Statement and appeal response that an appropriate or adequate assessment of the effects of the development on the environment has been carried out in accordance with Article 6 (3) of the EU Habitats Directive or that the integrity of Special Areas of Conservation and Special Protection Areas would not be adversely affected by the proposed development, in particular, the hydrological impacts of the construction of the proposed development on blanket bog. In these circumstances, the proposed development would contravene Policy EH-NH1 and Policy EH-NH4 of the development plan and would, therefore, be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

Pesky Mayo Development Plan, habitats and SACs. will the developers/council ever learn?

Oldtree

For those who may be interested, Mayo County Council have refused permission to Organic Power for a mast at Dadreen in Louisburgh, Westport, for the following reasons:

FIRST SCHEDULE

Having regard to the scenic nature of the site and the policies and provisions of the Mayo County Development Plan 2008 - 2014, the proposed development would not be in keeping with the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

SECOND SCHEDULE - SCHEDULE OF REASON FOR REFUSAL - P08/1500

1. The proposed development at this location would contravene materially development policy P/EH-LC 1 of the Mayo County Development Plan 2008 — 2014 in relation to ensuring that development will not have a disproportionate effect on the existing or future character of a landscape in terms of location, design and visual prominence, that development will have regard to the effects of developments from the public realm towards sensitive or vulnerable features and areas. It is considered that the proposed development would interfere with the character of the landscape at this location, which it is necessary to preserve. The proposed development therefore would be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

2. It is considered that the development would establish an undesirable precedent for similar development in the area. Therefore the proposed would be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

END OF SCHEDULE

:rolleyes::D

I await to see if the decision is appealed.....................

blue5000

Ireland has to import about 90% of it's energy. Wind is a resource that we can use, why are you so against windfarms, have you got a better suggestion apart from turning all the lights off?

galwaytt

......all the reason's with regard to the formation and establishment of SAC's etc, were based at a time in society based on certain information, in a certain context. At a time we could afford them, both monetarily and socially.

That has now changed: since their inception, the price of oil has been seen to double, CO2 has become an issue (which I don't 100% accept, btw...), a huge global financial and commercial crisis has visited upon us. Now, therefore, the context of any decision we make is utterly different, and right now we need to make decisions on energy. To conserve it, and use efficiently, certainly, but that notwithstanding, that would only serve to at best, cap our usage at existing production levels - which we simply must address monetarily - but, the likelihood is that nett consumption will continue far into the future. Don't believe me ? Ask Minister Ryan what we're going to use to re-charge all those electric cars he has deemed 1000's of us will drive......

So, what to do ? I'm not saying 'undo' SAC's, or anything else, but if we have to modify them, then, I'm afraid, so be it.

From my rear windows I can see..........oh, 20+ Wind Turbines (Derrybrien and Sonnagh Old)...and tbh, they are, frankly, things of beauty. On a sunny eve, sun low in the sky from the West, the turbines glint majestically in the sun. Let us not forget the SAC that is the ingenuity of man.

Man has always harnessed his environment for his own aims, and for his general betterment. All the differs now is that we seem to have adopted a psuedo-rosy view of That That Must Be Protected - at all costs. Well, I'm afraid, I can't say I subscribe to that. Think if it were ever so: The monks of Glendalough wouldn't have built that which we accept today as beautiful - including theirs, and others, Round Towers. Uncannily like wind turbine masts one would say.......

Ditto St Feichin of the Benedictine Order when building his Abbey north of Lough Len, at Fore, in the year 630. Why, this was built on no less than a..........bog ! :eek: Surely not, an SAC or NHA ? Which is missing the point. His, or their, ingenuity which allowed them the foresight to see a way to build a permanent masonry building on a floating foundation, on bog, was nothing short of ingenious. Something the likes of the DuPont corporation of today, with their GeoTextile amoury would surely admire, given their resources today, to allow 'ordinary' people to do the same thing with more modest structures..........and far less effort. To me, that is the great feature that bog.....

Do I need to mention Skellig Micheal, (man-) built 1400 years ago...- no less than a UNESCO World Heritage site ?

More recently, we've had the Norman's and their Keeps, and more recent still, from Victoriana and the Industrial Revolution, Flour Mills, Mill Wheels and all manner of wonder. I don't hear anyone saying they should be torn down.......

Of course - what about Holland, and it's polders, dykes and - gasp - Windmills ? Even Norfolk, if the truth be known.......

Would that they too, were subject to Planning etc ? Certainly not........we'd have been as left behind as far as the citizens' of the remotest reasons, and our society wouldn't be but a shadow of what it is now. Indeed, if our forefathers had adopted our thinking, we wouldn't have towns, let alone cities, to live in, in the first place.

A relatively recent embodiment of this nonsense thinking is the refusal not-so long ago by Galway Corporation, for planning permission, for a crane. In the Docks. To unload ships. !! Now, pray tell, can anyone remember that which stood there before (certainly I remember it, in the 1970's...).......well, paint me pink and tie me the side of a pig if it wasn't.........a crane. I won't bore you with the details. Or the fact that is was dismantled and shipped to Japan for re-use...... Ironic too, when you consider Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey published a Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008 to permit the 10 State port companies to pursue a “robust commercial agenda” ........mmmm.....

My point of all the above is, we are in danger of attaching values which on one level can be described as over-zealous in the application of importance, and at the same time 'protecting us from ourselves', which is going to be counter productive. Expecting people to sacrifice either their quality of life, or to temper their expectations of same - in extremis - is simply unreasonable. Ask those not in broadband-land would they like it, at the expense of an aeriel ? Better still, ask those who have it would they give it up, to sacrifice an aeriel.............I'd wager you'd be in danger of being impaled on said item by the interviewee.......;) To ask people to forego more basic service -electricity - is nonsensical. Because we have few energy-potent resources, and woe-betide us ignoring them. Windmills are just such an item. In 100 years our children's children will hopefully look at them and say......."weren't they clever, harnessing the wind like that.........?? "

All, as they say.........my 0.02......

....

galwaytt

....which reminds me, Skellig is a UNESCO World Heritage Site BECAUSE we built on it.........otherwise, it's just a big rock..........

Oldtree

blue5000 wrote: »

Ireland has to import about 90% of it's energy. Wind is a resource that we can use, why are you so against windfarms, have you got a better suggestion apart from turning all the lights off?

Apologies for dragging this one up again but I was in hospital at the time and did not reply to the above question.

I don't think I suggested that we turn off all the lights, but having had to leave the country in the 80's I firmly believe that tourism always has been and always will be a cornerstone of the Irish economy and our landscape should not be sacraficed lightly. We need whatever jobs are linked to the tourist industry which I see as a sustainable one. Imo tourists do not want to see windymills all over supposidly protected habitats in this green and pleasant land.

We also import 95% of our food so importing is part of what we are.

There are economies of scale involved, and there are just not enough people here to justify certain endevours.

One example is recycling. I do it, many people do too, but most of it is shipped off overseas to let others deal with our waste, sometimes other peoples children deal with our hazardous recycleable waste.

Another "economy of scale issue" would appear to be wind farms see this posts contents for for and against:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055783766

I wouldn't be adverse to small scale (on site) domestic or commercial premises having turbines, but I don't want to see yet another oversubscribed white elephant in our landscape driven by idealistic intent, the aftermath of which is left to the ordinary citizen to deal with.

Pineapple Dan

Oldtree wrote: »

Turbines to the right and turbines to the left:

Article from the Irish Times 10/10/08 on the IFA proposing 6,000 windmills (on the FOIE site):

http://friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=12554

Article from the Irish Times on the quantity of offshore production wanted by the industry - 7,200 megawatts (not sure how many turbines that is). Projects for up to 3,000 megawatts to be given the go ahead.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/0912/1221138437043.html

about 6,000

great plan though. will go a long way to reduce Ireland's dependence on fossil fuel. 7.2GW is enough to supply most of the country as long as the wind keeps blowing. all they need now is some pumped storage and a few more hydro stations

Oldtree

6,000 windymills, splutter, splutter.......... still out of sight out of mind
Pumped storage to cater for when 6,000 turbines not working sounds like a very large volume of water.

Only worry I have about offshore is that Ireland has coral reefs and a rich sea landscape too which imo is due the same protections as land landscapes, another sustainable tourist angle there too.

Right turbine in the right place. I've read that there are all sorts of commercial ideas which could be combined with offshore turbines such as underwater turbines, boosting the output using the same cables. There is even a bright spark working on superconducting cables to cut losses from the grid.

anymore

Most of the wind farms in the west of Ireland will be used to generate electricity to be exported to the east of Ireland, so the people getting the benefits of this kind of 'industrialisation of the west' will not have to suffer the environmental effects or visual pollution from the windmill farms.
many will point out the jobs created during the construction phases which is fair enough.
However contrast the attitude of well off Dubliners to the various development projects in and around the wealthier parts of Dublin - Shrewsbury road etc - and i am referring to modest size developments as well as the larger ones. Objections simply pour in and these are usually supported by Tds such as John Gormley on the Government and from TDs such as Lucinda Creighton on the opposition benches. Gormley has stridently opposed the building of an incinerator in Ringsend despite the fact that Continental Greens approve of them and despite the fact that he uses the ' Polluter must pay principle ' to bring in various environmental taxes. However it is OK to jeopardise tourism jobs in the West because it seems these are not important or relevant - despite the fact that tourism is our third biggest industry.
Curiousily enough the Healy Rae politicial family has very little to say on this subject - if it was something concerning publicians, you couldnt shut them up.

Oldtree

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2011/0628/1224299677588.html

Great to see that Mr Viney has reservations about this issue and that he is now pushing for offshore wind generated power and that Organic Power are going to leave an SAC alone.

Mayo Co co are also to be complimented on dezoning this beauitiful area for windy mills. :D:D

Needler

The eirgrid.com site is very interesting and shows a lot of interesting statistics but is there any measure of how much fuel is actually wasted due to our usage of wind turbines?

Like for example if during a quiet time in the summer only 1.3GW is used and 1.3GW is generated at the same time by wind turbines there are still oldschool thermal powerstations ticking over and running them at less than peak efficiency wastes fuel.

The anti-wind turbine crowd will probably tell me the situation is terrible while the proponents will say its not so bad. but are there any solid figures for fuel saved/wasted due to wind turbines?

How well can our grid respond to increased wind generation and has it been built using inefficient gas turbines specifically to accomodate wind generation?

Macha

Threads merged

Oldtree

See here for a brilliant new idea that puts ships to sea to generate power and is costed at less than conventional onshore and offshore wind and wave power and solar and does not have to damage the environment:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128205.600-wavepower-ships-could-bring-cheaper-clean-electricity.html

Amateurish

Oldtree wrote: »

See here for a brilliant new idea that puts ships to sea to generate power and is costed at less than conventional onshore and offshore wind and wave power and solar and does not have to damage the environment:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128205.600-wavepower-ships-could-bring-cheaper-clean-electricity.html

Excellent idea and not far off the wavebob or 'duck' type of generation, fortunately we have a new underground vein of iron/copper/zinc in ireland located on the west coast running right through Connemara for easy mining ensuring jobs stay local etc, see here
www.nimbyofmayo.com

Of course if you dont like mining you're in trouble again, lucky it takes place in someplace you dont value.

Oldtree

"Brett Martin, has completed the installation of its first wind turbine at the company’s headquarters in Mallusk. Representing an investment of over £2million and standing at a fully extended height of almost 100 metres, the wind turbine is the largest of its kind on an industrial site in Northern Ireland."

Have a look at the video here of the construction of said windymill. It is huge and a wonder to behold. It appears to be in the right place ie on an industrial site and dosn't appear to be all encompassing in the view, but the panorama leaves me a bit worried if they put up loads of them.

http://www.brettmartin.com/news-events/all-news-events/brett-martin-installs-wind-turbine.aspx

I cannot imagine how that kind of construction, or multiples thereof, would fit into the landscape on the coast of western Mayo.