Zeitgeist addendum Released

Private Joker

Brilliant film, very topical in todays economic climate.

Has anyone seen it yet? Not too sure about the venus project, would be great but its a little too Gene Roddenberry like.

Link
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

GhostInTheRuins

I watched it last night. The mere suggestion that it could be possible to leave the monetary system is laughable.

C\m\C

i agree with GhostInTheRuins, although the film has credit, you have to seriously consider the alternative, which is potential chaos..

What we have now is a peaceful society which may not be the best, but better than some tyranical regimes in far east.

You can have your head cut off just for having an affair, where is the sanity in that?..these people are animals, don't forget that!

Nick_oliveri

Does that make the system better? Theres morality and theres common sense. Both will tell you that the system does not work. The production is great, it has me convinced that the banking system is set in a certain way so that greed prevails. I could be wrong.

Evolution at this time and in the 21st century will be mainly technological and political. At this stage i would call it pre-historic. See my thread on Food and Water and the replies. In a nutshell there are millions dying because no-one benefits by feeding and housing them, which was agreed on in the thread.

Thats a sad and disturbing state of affairs right there. Wheres the democracy evolution? There isnt one because there was no next step, a political evolution....maybe we could call it "moralitics" or something gay like that. Some folks are happy with it, delighted with their illusion that the live in a moral free society worrying about britneys new hairdo.

But if we had a system, a different system, we all have our opinions, be it on abortion or gay marriage, some of us still think Saddam was at least partially responsible for 9/11 etc.. It doesn't matter what we call the new politics, it'll be a rehash of the same ****. And before you say "if we all thought about stuff in a collective, it would be a pretty boring world", I agree.

But hey, at least we have guns that can shoot around corners and see through walls.

And to anyone who can say that this is bull**** and conspiritorial (word?) before they watch this film i say...wtf, it cant hurt, disregard those ten seconds of 9/11 and move on. This could have been a similar hit like Al gores presentation film, if they removed the 9/11 crap and their solution to the problem which im sure you'll agree is pretty wacky after visiting that Venus website.

Now im going to try and be all artzy and poetic and leave these lyrics right here. Too much? You decide... :pac:

Now they saw the Celtic Tiger in my home town
Brings jewels and crowns, picks you up off the ground
But the Celtic Tiger does two things
It brings you good luck or it eats you up for its supper
It’s the tale of the two cities on the shamrock shore
Please Sir can I have some more
Cos if you are poor you’ll be eaten for sure
And that’s how I know the poor have more taste than the rich

Edit: ^^Thats Damien Dempsey btw.

Mahatma coat

I dont think we can LEAVE the monetary system, but we do have to re evaluate our priorities and the way that we structure our societies

Kama

You don't have to 'leave' the monetary system to reduce your exposure to it; you could look at this as a hedge, especially given the evident instability that our current monetary system is going through.

Its also quite plausible to look at alternate monetary systems that are closer to the ground; things like LETS and the Totness Pound are moves in this direction, and become more competitive versus conventional money in harsher economic times; scrip in Germany during the Depression is an example.

Not a fan of Zeitgeist as anything other than a good example of how to make a propaganda film though...Tries to hard to make too many disparate themes into a grand narrative imo.

jclaw

You dumb apes, yes thats you. The money system is dying thats one point this movie does not clarify.

I would not expect people who trust this system to have anything but faith in it, but the chances are excellent you are the very same people that will **** your pants when the bottom falls out of this and probibly murder me and my family so you can eat.

So a year ago if i would have told 90% of the general population whats happened so far was going to happen they would have had me committed.

So imagine a year from now is it possible you will have no job, no house and social disorder harping back to the extremes of the 14th century and people running around this place killing for and stealing food so they can survive.

Who the hell knows but one things for sure the irish government does not give a **** about you or me.

They sold us down the river a long time ago...

We let these yes men make this happen so point the finger at yourselves.

but that also means we can do something about it.. And "THATS THE POINT OF THE FILM"

cheerie bannana

bonkey

jclaw wrote: »

So imagine a year from now is it possible you will have no job, no house and social disorder harping back to the extremes of the 14th century and people running around this place killing for and stealing food so they can survive.

It is, indeed, possible.

That would be the collapse of the monetary system that some here have been hoping for...saying that this would be their preferred outcome.

Who the hell knows but one things for sure the irish government does not give a **** about you or me.

There's a difference between not caring, and actually wishing us harm. Even if they're only looking out for the fat-cats, they have to stave off the nightmare scenario that you outline. End result is that we gain....unless you're one of the ones who subscribes to the notion that the 14th Century extremes are the desired outcome here.

nyarlothothep

No nation will regress to barbarism unless everyone becomes a total idiot through mega panic. South Park actually continually illustrates this point.

I am the anti capitalist by nature and am unable to think along commercial/money orientated lines plus money/economics is not a main interest of mine, but I have a question, the economy is pretty much something of our own creation, an abstract marking system for labour hours worked, which is rewarded through a bartering system of other forms of labour, right? So my question here is, if things get really serious (regression to a modern dark ages), why doesn't everyone in the west just agree to reset the global economy back to zero? Its not like the economy is some god that has to be appeased, we are the economy. The idea is simplistic but as a starting fundament it could unravel to accommodate the complexity of international markets. Yeah some people will lose out but if collective action were taken, mutual goodwill, in effect the end result would be better no?

rexusdiablos

Has anybody visited the Zeitgeist Movement site? Mass international conferences are to be held this March. Anyone interested?

DubTony

Interesting stuff. It gives a great insight into how the monetary system works, and shows up a huge problem that we are facing, or indeed we already have. The U.S. national debt seemingly hit $10 trillion last month for the first time ever. So one must wonder how long the system, as it operates today, can prevail.

As for Fresco's "solution". Well, it's all very utopian and beautiful, but he doesn't offer any opinion as to how we could get there. I can't see, if this was at all possible, how anyone could say it wouldn't be the ideal system, but it would take a paradigm shift of immense proportions in our thinking to achieve this ideal. Greed, or even the basic desire to own more or better things would have to be eradicated from the psyche to begin with and replaced with some sort of altruistic nature. This alone would take many, many generations to achieve. It couldn't be a barter system as that would effectively put values on everything and as Oscar_Bravo asked in another thread "what would you barter for a house?"

It would need every person on the planet to live for the betterment of all society. That's not something I can see ever happening , unless their is a massive event that causes every living person to take stock and actually believe that there is a "better" way. I do believe that we'd need a nuclear holocaust or alien invasion (:o) to bring all the peoples of the world together to achieve anything like Fresco's dream. It would need to get a lot worse before we could ever hope to see this utopia.

Drumpot

I agree in principle with what is being said here but theres a few fundamental flaws that would prevent anything this radical happening WITHOUT a revolution.

If Im rich, I dont really care whats happening in the world, it wont really effect me to the point that I want a complete overhaul of the capitalist system.

This more then likely means Im in some position of power to dictate or "massage" policy into suiting myself.

Western powers are built by the rich, for the rich and are all about controlling anybody thats not rich. They reward backstabbing, undercutting, competition to a fault (cartels flourish and price fixes rampant).

Our society is built around arguably the most corrupt companies of them all, the ones that make profits on the publics own money, charge the public for this privelage and then metaphorically speaking, goto las vegas and blow it all in their own self interests, while paying themselves handsomely for the "risks" they had to endure getting there.

And whats the worst that can happen to these people? Forced retirement as millionaires, wow I would really hate that . .

nyarlothothep

Would the revolutions in Venezeula, Equador, Cuba and so forth not testify to the fact that most people want a better world, without needless suffering and pain generated from blind greed...Bernard Lietaer, an economist states that "Greed and Competition are not the result of immutable human temperament... greed and fear of scarcity are in fact being created and amplified... the direct consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive." Chomsky talks along similar lines.

The fact is if, in our evolutionary history, we behaved like corporations do, none of us would be posting here today. Tribes would self destruct. Self interest exists, the desire for individual comfort and happiness is understandable, but greed is largely that interest run riot and a culture of greed, of the rat race and status quo is largely indoctrination perpetuated by elites.

My theory is that its partly an historical loop, originally we had empires and so forth, where in a climate of technological primitivism and cultural ignorance those with less of a conscience and who were ruthless found it easier to rise to the top. Combine that with notions of divine right and omnipotence and these thought patterns were iterated with each successive generation until we're left with what we have now, clandestine rule. Its time for a revolution in consciousness. En mass revolt against corporations and governments. It might sound crazy and certainly the notion of it happening is but looking at what the main players get up to abroad, its plain to see its not justified and that the only way to change things is through collective action and widespread dissemination against those in power.

Drumpot

Interesting way of putting it nyarlothothep .

I suppose its true to say that the only thing stopping a revolt is the fact that we have all been conditioned to accept the world we have today. In all fairness this is true in any civilisation because we are all born into the world at some stage & automatically learn to adapt into whatever the rules say we should do.

How can anybody else explain the fact that we see the most blatantly corrupt things happen in everyday life, with leaders in every country protecting the rich at all costs. Im not saying that those in power are evil, they are just slaves to the system or born into a position of power that facilitates them living in a completely differant world to the rest of us.

Would I lose all credibility if I compared the mentality of people in the world to the film the Matrix. Were once I was blind, now I can see . . .

nyarlothothep

Is there any significance to linking to my profile? :pac:

I agree, I don't think its necessarily ruthlessness that explains the whole situation, though I do believe it play its part. Institutions can attract different types of people. So there may be a link between power institutions attracting power mongers.

I'm not sure about your matrix analogy. Are saying that conspiracy theories against the system entail a kind of fervent religiosity? If thats what you're saying, I think so but I don't think this is the case with organized open dissent.

That said the activities of the CIA for example would throw up a lot of legitimate conspiracy theorizing.

Drumpot

That was an accident (linking your name like that), no harm in over emphasing your importance in this discussion!!

My reference to the matrix was meant to be a metaphorical example of how we are all prisoners to how we percieve the world to be and how we accept whats put on front of us.

Suppose thats what seperates revolutionists from the average Joe's that are happy enough to plod along in their lives.

Theres also the issue that would still arise out of revolution. Some people wouldnt be happy with change, even hostages supposedly get sympathy for the people that holds them captive ! !

nyarlothothep

How do you know you weren't meant to think that?

koHd

All I'll say about the movie is; they ruined it with the 9/11 stuff. That's been done to death.

I liked the religious segment at the start. Never heard of or noticed so many of what they go into detail about.

And a lot of the stuff they uncover is stuff I always thought about religion myself. So it was nice to see there is some facts that I can now quote to my friends that think I'm crazy! heh

Nick_oliveri

Wrong film koHd. You were watching the first one. Which has supposedly been "debunked" already. The second part "Attendum" is really well done.

Flamed Diving

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I dont think we can LEAVE the monetary system, but we do have to re evaluate our priorities and the way that we structure our societies

For once, I agree. Although I bet we don't agree on the means of achieving this. But I can hope...

Flamed Diving

nyarlothothep wrote: »

why doesn't everyone in the west just agree to reset the global economy back to zero?

Mahatma coat

why not, its basicly going to go that way, why not just say, enough of you traders trying to make a few extra sheckles of the backs of the people who produce. nothing wrong with makin a few quid for movin comodoties around the place but the whole finance sector became a joke.

so yeah why not just say 'Its Reset' start again and less of the crazyness this time.

its gonna get wiped out anyway, theres no point in trying to protect an inflated market

Kama

its gonna get wiped out anyway, theres no point in trying to protect an inflated market

That's my feelings too tbh. The state can't keep it inflated, its going to deleverage anyways, but 'in for a penny, in for a pound' means we are guaranteeing it.

The thing about teh bailouts gets me is:

A: the opportunity cost of backing up a failing system rather than putting something else on the map, tailor something else per your requirements...

and B: the bailout as a demonstration of our social priorities: 'sure we can't pay for health care/education/feed the world/insert priority here, but we can sign blank cheques for Teh Banksters, ofc ofc!'.

Y'know, a reset of all debts isn't *that* bad an idea...used be called a Jubilee hehe, back when we didn't indulge in the ungodly and Masonic usury practice...

Mahatma coat

anyone else hearabout the Australian 'Rescue' plan for the economy, aparently our wise and benevolent leader has decided to Piss away half of the current budget SURPLUS thats about 11 Billion Au Dollars in an atempt to kickstart the economy, people are supposed to take the cash they're given and spend it, so I've ben wonderin how much ofi will end up being spent on imported products or products made by Multinationals where the money still ends up leavin the country.

there was a bit at the end of that Docco called the money masters, which was scoffed at by some of the 'economists' here, it suggested that money shouldbe invested into public works etc that will benefit the entire community. sort of like another Snowy River project

Mahatma coat

the other thing I kep thinkin about is that maybe seein as this country is goin through a resoursce boom, maybe it mightnt be bad idea to nationalise the mines

DubTony

Mahatma coat wrote: »

anyone else hearabout the Australian 'Rescue' plan for the economy, aparently our wise and benevolent leader has decided to Piss away half of the current budget SURPLUS thats about 11 Billion Au Dollars in an atempt to kickstart the economy, people are supposed to take the cash they're given and spend it, so I've ben wonderin how much ofi will end up being spent on imported products or products made by Multinationals where the money still ends up leavin the country.

My brother lived in Brisbane from 1989 to 1996 and told me that during that time Australia basically bought it's way out of recession on 2 occasions (if I remember correctly). The people just kept on doing what they'd been doing and very little changed economically.

DubTony

I have to wonder how committed Fresco is to his ideal when, unlike many others who put their videos online to be viewed without charge, and sold at very low cost, he doesn't. His DVDs are available to buy on www.thevenusproject.com/shop from $20 each. He's also selling signed copies of his designs for 4 for $100.

While he obviously needs to make a living and fund his organisation, surely the best way to achieve his goal is to put the idea into as many heads as possible, involve the masses and begin a movement promoting and moving toward a truly resource-based economy.

Kama

Nationalization isn't quite such a dirty word anymore; old-stylee public works isn't that bad an idea either. Conventional economics has been pushing a pro-cyclical bubble for a looong time tho (cheers Greenspan), which makes it tougher. But yeh, can't keep it inflated, seems nuts to be to go balls-to-the-wall with the State.

As the saying goes, we need an exit strategy!
It's trivially true that we can't 'exit', but equally we can attempt to hedge our losses, not sink in further. This was the argument of the Peak Oilers like Transition Towns; build up more resilience to shocks, whether resource-based or financial. Less run-to-the-hills, more make sure we have a backup generator, whether thats in food, energy, or finance.

Dubtony, 911 Truth and CT aren't a little marginal fringe thing anymore; its a *big* business. And as all good CT'ers say 3 times before trying to sleep, follow the money! Tbh thats kinda my zeitgeist; weakly link every CT'ish topic you can, throw in some scary sounds, sell lots of videos...

DubTony

Kama wrote: »

Dubtony, 911 Truth and CT aren't a little marginal fringe thing anymore; its a *big* business. And as all good CT'ers say 3 times before trying to sleep, follow the money! Tbh thats kinda my zeitgeist; weakly link every CT'ish topic you can, throw in some scary sounds, sell lots of videos...

I can't disagree with that at all.

Mahatma coat

so the main question we sould be askin a the moment is what do we want to keep and what can we discard from the current system?

I think we need to return to a more self sustaining system at a local level, ie every village contains the nescessary resources to feed its population, and an ability to maintain a balance of trade with all the other village.

course someones village needs to be knockin out Ipods and someone elses needsto be makin V8's

Kama

Mahatma, that's real close to the TTowns agenda, which I'm a bit of a fanboi for...work out how, on an actionable basis, you can get started on getting some local V8s (though it's usually a good idea to get more 'base' stuff first. The wet-dream is that we get fabbers rolling (prices are dropping all the time) then its np to crank out IPods on a open-source basis. It's all about internalising value hehe...

Also a big fan of John Robb; in between the military theory (which is bang on the money imo) there's some very good commentary on economics and rebuilding local economic structures. His next book is all on building resilient communities, he's pleasantly optimistic coming from a pessimistic assumption on the current regime; it's broke, don't try and prop it up, the state can't do it and will screw itself on the way down....

Mahatma coat

Thanks for that Kama. I've been tryin for ages to write up how I would go about changin things, but thats much better rhan anything I've managed to put down on paper.

kinda leaves that Venus project in the shade

Mahatma coat

I would consider V8's asa base nescessity too :D:D

tho I will settle for turbocharged Sixes

Kama

Glad to pass on the meme tbh...TT is interesting stuff, its kinda what you make of it, and only seems more relevant now than when came across it. Practical localism, it's not just eco-weenie stuff, and its mainstreaming atm. Local currencies also something am interested in; if liquidity dries up, makes a lot of sense for communities to write our own IOU's rather than pay interest to someone else for the privilege.

Transition Towns Handbook, if you can get a copy, is the blueprint. Interesting to look at for anyone who thinks the current system is going down the sink, its hellah optimistic about what that would mean, rather than 'omg we r screwed'.

Robb is a bit of a guru for me, book is worth a look but if you go through the site most of it is there in some form. He's pretty hardcore imo, and ahead of the curve as to what needs to be done, whether the problem is terrorism or brownouts. Enjoy!

Flamed Diving

A load of rubbish. Quote-mining and misinterpretation (intentional of otherwise) at its worst.

Flamed Diving

Just watched some more, what a pile of ****. I must ask a question or two and I hope people can come up with a logic, truthful answer.

1) Inflation hurts people, can you think of anyone else that it hurts?

2) (wrt IMF accusations -currency devaluation-, which are completely wrong see this, but lets assume these allegations are true) Currency devaluation of poor countries, this leads to cheap raw materials for the 'corptocracy', can you think of anyone else (besides the people) this hurts?

Think hard.

Nick_oliveri

The entire film was a misinterpretation and "quote mining" of the monetary system? Even those first 30 minutes at the start about the Banking and Loans? I really cannot see what you are getting at with these questions in your above post. I am of the opinion that you didnt like what you saw and disregarded the whole thing about 10 minutes in.

Mahatma coat

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Just watched some more, what a pile of ****. I must ask a question or two and I hope people can come up with a logic, truthful answer.

'Some More' So you havent actually watched it in full then?

1) Inflation hurts people, can you think of anyone else that it hurts?

other than people I dunno maybe the Lizzzzards :rolleyes:

2) (wrt IMF accusations -currency devaluation-, which are completely wrong see this, but lets assume these allegations are true) Currency devaluation of poor countries, this leads to cheap raw materials for the 'corptocracy', can you think of anyone else (besides the people) this hurts?

I'll assume you typed this on a friday night and were Drunk, could you please retype that last bit in english for us?

Think hard.

DubTony

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Just watched some more, what a pile of ****. I must ask a question or two and I hope people can come up with a logic, truthful answer.

1) Inflation hurts people, can you think of anyone else that it hurts?

2) (wrt IMF accusations -currency devaluation-, which are completely wrong see this, but lets assume these allegations are true) Currency devaluation of poor countries, this leads to cheap raw materials for the 'corptocracy', can you think of anyone else (besides the people) this hurts?

Think hard.

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but I think you're being silly.

Flamed Diving

Can anyone in this silly little forum think of another victim of inflation, besides the 'people'?

Mahatma coat

You still Drunk?

this is endemic of the 'economist' outlook, cryptic questions to make yerself feel smarter.

if you want to share some of your deep understanding then feel free to, but if you want to ask riddles be prepared for the same short shrift the rest of us recieve from you.

Flamed Diving

Anyone? Are you so wilfully ignorant that you can't see the answer? You dont need any knowledge of economics to get this. I mean, you seem to understand how inflation hurts people, therefore you can surely get my question. Just have a guess!

Mahatma coat

maybe a Youtubelink would help

seriously tho,thats one serious drinkinbinge lad, did they break the news that your Economic 'advice' was no longer needed due to the recession that y didnt see coming?

Flamed Diving

We did. Unfortunately no one (politicians) was listening. I take it you never heard of David McWilliams, and he wasn't the only one. Get any closer to the answer? I will give you some help:

If I lent you €100 at 3% for one year and inflation for that year turned out to be 4%, who would be the winner/loser in that outcome?

Mahatma coat

if YOU lent me money then you would lose cos it'd be your actual money, Banks dont lend out 'their' money they just make it up on the promise of Debt,driving inflation by adding money to the system, so the people still lose, is that what your ramblin on about

Flamed Diving

Mahatma coat wrote: »

if YOU lent me money then you would lose cos it'd be your actual money, Banks dont lend out 'their' money they just make it up on the promise of Debt,driving inflation by adding money to the system, so the people still lose, is that what your ramblin on about

Right, but if it works exactly as you describe then the banks are only hurting themselves, for if they drive inflation ever-upwards then they would have to raise interest rates to ridiculous levels to make sure they earn any return on the money they handed out. According to the idiot who made the movie, this is whats happening and yet we don't see it, interest rates are not at crazy levels, and inflation is not rampant. He says that $10bn becomes $90bn (or whatever) because of the way the system works. What he refers to is actually called the money multiplier, which is a simple mathematical model which houses a number of abstract assumptions which don't hold in reality (it is a useful description, nonetheless). So the money never reaches the levels that he describes (although it does expand), but this is yet another inconvenient fact that idiot-boy excludes. If the US does work as he describes, why aren't we seeing >100% inflation/interest rates there? Surely this would be the outcome of such a never-ending spiral?

In addition, it is funny that he cites Abe Lincolns move to produce greenbacks as legal tender being produced by Treasury, which is something you CT'ers advocate. Does anyone know what the outcome of this move was? Because he excludes that little piece of info...

Moreover, does anyone wanna know why devaluing a countries currency to 'get their resources on the cheap' is bad for banks?

DubTony

Flamed Diving wrote: »

We did. Unfortunately no one (politicians) was listening. I take it you never heard of David McWilliams, and he wasn't the only one. Get any closer to the answer? I will give you some help:

If I lent you €100 at 3% for one year and inflation for that year turned out to be 4%, who would be the winner/loser in that outcome?

ah sure it doesn't matter. Trichet and his mates are doing their best to make sure that doesn't happen. :pac:

DubTony

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Right, but if it works exactly as you describe then the banks are only hurting themselves, yada yada yada

But that IS how it works. Fractional-Reserve Banking. It's the in-thing.

I think somebody provided a link.

Flamed Diving

DubTony wrote: »

But that IS how it works. Fractional-Reserve Banking. It's the in-thing.

I think somebody provided a link.

That is how the model works, and according to the model $10bn turns into $90bn. But the model is an approximation based on strict assumptions. When these assumptions are removed then the model doesn't hold. Of course, Fractional Reserve banking increases the MS, but nowhere near as much as the model would suggest as time approaches infinity.

Flamed Diving

DubTony wrote: »

ah sure it doesn't matter. Trichet and his mates are doing their best to make sure that doesn't happen. :pac:

You are right. The ECB's charter is strictly based on keeping inflation below 2%. Good for banks, good for business and good for people (although not so good for growth...). For the record, I am completely against the way The Fed works, as I have stated many times on the economics forum. What bothers me is that people watch this movie without checking up the assertions he makes. The guy who made this movie is either an idiot or a liar who correctly assumes that he can manipulate uncritical audiences into believing whatever lies he concocts, and I am betting on the latter. You dont need a degree in economics to tear this guys arguments to shreds, you just need an open, critical mind and the patience to read a book or two. If you want a well-informed, honest criticism of the way the global monetary system works, I recommend Joseph Stiglitz's 'Globalization and its Discontents' and not this google video ****.

Mahatma coat

multiplier???

is that the aul Keynsian Multiplier yer talkin about??

as I remember from economics class that'd be where I spend $100 in your shop,then you spend $80 of that with your suppliers, and they spend $50 of that on wages, and then that Employee spends $40 in another shop, and the process is repeated so that in a perfect competition model the same dollar gets spent 7 times in circulation.


now you claim to know more than me about these things but as I see it thats the complete opposite of fractional reserve bankin.

in a fractional reserve system if I BANK my $100 the bank can create over $800 in credit.


I think that one of the main factors in this crisis was the common man playin the fractional reserve game, that is to say they earned a set wage, had a credit card and discovered that they could keep uppin their credit limit so long as they could make the interest repayments. Now the banks are calling in the loans and Joe public is beginnin to realise that it dont work