Violence at Tara Street from Train Guards

BenjAii

I saw something at Tara Street this evening that shocked me and made me wonder about the powers of the black uniformed train security on DART trains and what they can and cannot get away with.

I was getting off a northbound train at around 8.30 this evening. As I was exiting, a man in his 50's, seemingly drunk was standing beside two of the guards. As the doors started to close he made a lunge to try and get on the train. He made it on but the two guards pulled him off.

I turned at this point to exit, but a few seconds later their was a loud crack and many people around cried out. I turned around to see the man (unconscious I think, I stayed for a few moments and he never moved) lying on the ground with his head beside a metal rubbish bin.

It was obvious the loud crack was his head making contact with it. Mnay people seemed shocked and milled around for a few moments and rightly so. If something like tis had happened as an accident everyone would want to call an ambulance. The upside was that people dispersed and the train guards were calling the Gardai.

The noise was so loud, I would say the man had possibly fractured his skull; I would say the impact might be similar to a collision at 15-20 mph with the possibility of serious injury.

I realise this may have been accidental on the part of the train guards, but if so they were dangerously negligent; possibly a lot worse if it was deliberate.

I have a feeling they won't have to face any wrong doing here - does that make you uncomfortable ? It does me.

Guy:Incognito

BenjAii wrote: »

I realise this may have been accidental on the part of the train guards, but if so they were dangerously negligent;.

How?, they pulled a drunk guy off a train who then fell and hit his head.

BenjAii wrote: »

I have a feeling they won't have to face any wrong doing here - does that make you uncomfortable ? It does me.

No, but then I've no plans to get locked and go stumbling around a train station then attempt to make a break for a train when told to sling my hook.


From the way your going on I kept expecting as I read through it for the gards to throw him on the ground and start stamping on him.

BenjAii

Stekelly, I didn't see enough to tell if this was accidental or deliberate. I could tell enough that the man had potentially been seriously injured.

Are you really happy at the thought that anyone in uniform should have the power to inflict that sort of injury on someone and have to face no consequences ?

If it had been your father or brother and they had been seriously injured in a similar situation would you be fine about it ?

CDfm

i saw a similar event years back in the same location i didnt get invoved.

a friend did report the incident at a garda station -store st i think

if you feel strongly you should report it as anything more the reasonable force is a crime

if you feel unable to do that go to your local td and ask them to find out for you

Guy:Incognito

BenjAii wrote: »

Stekelly, I didn't see enough to tell if this was accidental or deliberate. I could tell enough that the man had potentially been seriously injured.

You decided youd seen enough to say they were dangerously negligent.

BenjAii wrote: »

Are you really happy at the thought that anyone in uniform should have the power to inflict that sort of injury on someone and have to face no consequences ?

Theres nothing worse in a job than having to deal with drunk arseholes causing trouble. If he falls when they are dragging him away from somewhere or something he shouldnt be doing then it's his own fault.

If he had walked away and not been trying to run onto trains when they obviously told him he's not getting on then nothign would have happened. If they had let him do what he wanted and he fell under the train people would be whinging that no one took charge and stopped drunk people running about where hundreds of tons of train is going by.

BenjAii wrote: »

If it had been your father or brother and they had been seriously injured in a similar situation would you be fine about it ?

I'll go one more and say if it was me it'd be my own stupid fault.

BenjAii

Stekelly, I'm very surprised you mean that.

Are you really saying in a situation where someone was being drunk and obnoxious they deserved a potentially life threatening injury ?

Just to reiterate I didn't see if the guards did this accidentally (it was negligent use of force) or they did it deliberately.

What I'm sure of is he was/could have been given a serious head injury. Given the sound of human skull smashing against metal if that sort of impact had happened to a friend/family in an accident and they appeared unconscious I would be terrified they had received a serious injury and would absolutely think they needed immediate medical attention and head x-rays.

Are you sure you have no qualms about security guards on the DART meting out that sort of violence as they see fit ?

CDfm

BenjAii wrote: »

Stekelly, I'm very surprised you mean that.

Are you really saying in a situation where someone was being drunk and obnoxious they deserved a potentially life threatening injury ?

Are you sure you have no qualms about security guards on the DART meting out that sort of violence as they see fit ?

have you reported it?

Guy:Incognito

BenjAii wrote: »

Stekelly, I'm very surprised you mean that.

Are you really saying in a situation where someone was being drunk and obnoxious they deserved a potentially life threatening injury ?

For a start, neither of us know if, at all , and to what extent, he was injured.

As for what happened, from what you say it seems like they dragged him off the train , he took a tumble and hit his head. They didnt hop on him at random and start savagely beating him.

If he wasnt drunk and causign a nuisence of some sort nobody would have even noticed him as he travelled through the station.

BenjAii wrote: »

.

Are you sure you have no qualms about security guards on the DART meting out that sort of violence as they see fit ?

See this is the thing, despite you admitting all you saw was them dragging him out of the train you seem to want to keep implying they gave him a hiding.

Mena

BenjAii wrote: »

I have a feeling they won't have to face any wrong doing here - does that make you uncomfortable ? It does me.

Why do you feel this?

BenjAii wrote: »

Are you really happy at the thought that anyone in uniform should have the power to inflict that sort of injury on someone and have to face no consequences ?

Where does it state that they have the "power" to do this?

BenjAii wrote: »

Are you sure you have no qualms about security guards on the DART meting out that sort of violence as they see fit ?

Once again, how do you know they are "meting out that sort of violence as they see fit" ?

You don't even know if the bloke tripped himself or was pushed. Far too much speculation and guilty before proven innocent going on here.

If you're concerned, report it, I'm sure they will have CCTV and more witnesses to figure out what happened.

If they were in the wrong, they need to be sorted out, harshly. If the guy was just pissed and tripped/fell then too bad, he should control himself more in public.

dowlingm

BenjAii's post sums up today's society. I see injustice and my answer is to spread awareness. Is the facebook group up for this incident yet?

BenjAii

Replying to the last few posts.

I couldn't tell if this was deliberate, if not, it was accidental.

I am sure it was a potentially very serious injury. As i say, many people in the vicinity seemed shocked by the injury. I can't tell if indeed it was serious. All i know is that from the sound of his skull hitting the metal bin, in my opinion it was serious enough that he may have fractured his skull.

My point is the guards were a) negligent, in causing potential serious injury where they should have only restrained b) possibly deliberately violent.

I didn't report this and I doubt any of the other onlookers did.

What I'm getting at is do people think it's OK for security guards to cause potentially life threatening injury to someone when surely simple restraint was what was called for.

TheNog

OP you are making some major assumptions here. You didn't see everything that happened nor did you what this guy may have done before you saw him. You are guessing only

Guy:Incognito

BenjAii wrote: »

What I'm getting at is do people think it's OK for security guards to cause potentially life threatening injury to someone when surely simple restraint was what was called for.

and what IO'm getting at is you dont know (and admit as much but that doesnt stop you making alegations) what the security gards did or did not cause.

BenjAii

TheNog, i've tried to make it clear that i didn't see the whole picture but i've said what i did see.

From that I'm sure the actions of the guards pulling the man off the train (at this point i tuned away) either accidentally caused what happened, or possibly it was deliberate.

In either case it is disturbing.

For obvious reasons if it was deliberate.

Even if it was accidental, merely restraining him was what was called for. There were two of them against a much older man (late 50's I would say).

Even if they accidentally can cause this much (potential) damage to someone, is there not a question of accountability ?

CDfm

There is CCTV in Tara Street - am not sure if its on the trains.

So you should be able to do something if you really want to just by reporting it.

Posting it on a thread does not absolve you from your civic and moral duty.

the_syco

BenjAii wrote: »

I was getting off a northbound train at around 8.30 this evening. As I was exiting, a man in his 50's, seemingly drunk was standing beside two of the guards. As the doors started to close he made a lunge to try and get on the train. He made it on but the two guards pulled him off.

Lets see. Some drunk was next to two Gardai. Gardai aren't known to "just stand next to drunks", unless the drunk has caused trouble. When the train doors started to close, the drunk attempted to, what? Escape? And the Gardai hauled him off.

AND ZOMG! The drunk falls and hits his head off something. Yeah. Never heard of a drunk loosing balance. World first?:rolleyes:

I think the Gardai can only handcuff him if they're arresting him, and well, they're not going to exactly hold his hand, are they?

=-=

Now, as you have seen nothing, you cry police brutality?

CDfm

the_syco wrote: »

Lets see. Some drunk was next to two Gardai. Gardai aren't known to "just stand next to drunks", unless the drunk has caused trouble. When the train doors started to close, the drunk attempted to, what? Escape? And the Gardai hauled him off.

AND ZOMG! The drunk falls and hits his head off something. Yeah. Never heard of a drunk loosing balance. World first?:rolleyes:

I think the Gardai can only handcuff him if they're arresting him, and well, they're not going to exactly hold his hand, are they?

=-=

Now, as you have seen nothing, you cry police brutality?

syco- i think he says the were train guards and not actually gardai.

thinks he wants someone else to complain for him to the right authorities

AlekSmart

This is beginning to sound like one mans crusade against "The System" ?

From the original post I get the impression that BenjAii is predisposed towards supposition as to the actions of the Railway Security personnel.

It should be recognized that Irish Rail only provide this Security presence because they HAVE to,not because they WANT to.
One of the consistent and recurring complaints about DART operations in particular has been the prevalance of Anti-Social behaviour both on Trains and around the Stations.
Drunk,disorderly and incapable persons contribute to this irrespective of age or appearance and In my view Irish Rail have little alternative but to impliment stringent measures IF the Rail Service is to maintained for ALL to utilize.

If only Irish Rail could persuade Bus Atha Cliath to adopt the same attitude we might have a more attractive after dark Bus service,which in far too many areas is now the preserve of anti-social savages to the detriment of everybody else.

No matter what BenjAii infers,he/she did not actually witness the Security personnel cause or attempt to cause physical injury to the unfortunate drunk.
It sould be recognized that the process of "merely restraining" a drunken adult male can of itself be far more dangerous than many appreciate.

IF he/she feels sufficiently concerned about the incident it is open to him/her to make a complaint to both Irish Rail and the Gardai and to have the matter pursued officially.

TheNog

BenjAii wrote: »

TheNog, i've tried to make it clear that i didn't see the whole picture but i've said what i did see.

From that I'm sure the actions of the guards pulling the man off the train (at this point i tuned away) either accidentally caused what happened, or possibly it was deliberate.

In either case it is disturbing.

For obvious reasons if it was deliberate.

Even if it was accidental, merely restraining him was what was called for. There were two of them against a much older man (late 50's I would say).

Even if they accidentally can cause this much (potential) damage to someone, is there not a question of accountability ?

But you have to admit that what possibly didnt see was the security pulling the man off the train, stabilising him (standing upright) and letting him go. You did say he was drunk so he could have fell of his own accord.

I'm only surmising here cos I wasn;t there and neither did you see everything. I'm not for one second that security did not assault him or cause his head to bang off the bin but we and you don't know for sure. Thats what we are all saying.

BenjAii

Just to clear this up, as I've repeatedly said I couldn't tell if this was deliberate or accidental, my point is it was one or the other.

The core issue is, are you happy that that security staff can potentially cause life threatening injuries when dealing with these situations ?

And even if it was accidental, is it OK, they can potentially give people life threatening injuries, when they should just be restraining them and there are no consequences ?

I don't question the fact they come up with anti-social behavior all the time and are doing a public service dealing with it.

My point is, is it OK for them to mete out potentially life threatening injury and not face any consequences ?

orestes

Why do I get the feeling this is a very thinly veiled attempt to discuss another subject regarding violence and train stations that has been on Sky News all week?

DublinWriter

BenjAii wrote: »

I have a feeling they won't have to face any wrong doing here - does that make you uncomfortable ? It does me.

Yes it does. Idiots like that drunk guy clog up our A&E systems every day.

Enough bleeding hearts already.

r3nu4l

If I'm watching the first 5 minutes of a football match and Team A are outperforming Team B, I'm not going to tell people that Team A were the better team. How do I know that Team B did not rally and score 5 goals? Why would I assume on the basis of 5 minutes viewing that Team A won?

This is what you are doing original poster. How do you know these train guards won't lose their jobs or face jail? If CCTV shows them throwing this man to the ground, they deserve to lose their jobs and face charges, however if they pulled him off the train and then he turned quickly to punch them, staggered and fell, then the guy deserves what he got!

You are making a terrible assumption here and this is a part of the sickness of today's society. People making assumptions and getting all angry with then using language such as "shuld this be allowed?" and "should they have the power to do this?" talk. Typical tabloid reader style :rolleyes:

Should they be allowed to take a drunk off the train? Yes
Should they have the power to remove him from the station? Yes
Should they be allowed to punch and kick people? No
Did they throw him to the ground? You don't know so stop making assumptions.
Did he try to punch them and stagger and fall? You don't know yet you make the assumption that he didn;t and the train guards are wrong.
Did they call the gardai? Yes, they would also have alerted tham that an ambulance was needed.
Had they done something wrong they may not have but as it is they did their job.

IIMII

I thought the only power of arrest these guys have is citizens arrest? Don't have a clue about your man or his antics (if any). But my understanding was that these guys are plain old security guards that can they carry out and implement company business and proceedures, but that they can't manhandle patrons unless in self-defense or if they are making a citizens style arrest.

Is it possible that this guy wasn't annoying anyone but just had one too many after work and that the security contractors decided that they wouldn't let him board because he was drunk rather than a nuisance?

Just making the point that these guys are hired private security contractors, not state police. And not trained as such either.. Either way, if they intended to keep him off the train for his own safety as he was drunk, him cracking his head may not have been the best outcome.

Particularly if he was being restrained as he should have been restrained securely and escorted off the premises until the Gardaí were called..

Either way (whether the instigator or the victim) I'd say yer man will probably be off to a solicitor

r3nu4l

IIMII wrote: »

Is it possible that this guy wasn't annoying anyone but just had one too many after work and that the security contractors decided that they wouldn't let him board because he was drunk rather than a nuisance?

Is it also possible that he had been a nuisance, shouting and intimidating people on the platform and that the security guards had told him that he wasn't going to be allowed board a train and when he made a jump for it they pulled him off the train, but couldn't secure him before he tried swinging digs at people and he then fell and cracked his head?

Even the police get caught out by the sudden ferocity of some drunks...

The point I'm making is that none of us, not even the OP know what happened and yet he seems to automatically assume that the guards acted like fascist SS types. :rolleyes:

It's all assumption and a big hoo-haa over nothing until we all know the full story.

TheNog

BenjAii wrote: »

Just to clear this up, as I've repeatedly said I couldn't tell if this was deliberate or accidental, my point is it was one or the other.

The core issue is, are you happy that that security staff can potentially cause life threatening injuries when dealing with these situations ?

And even if it was accidental, is it OK, they can potentially give people life threatening injuries, when they should just be restraining them and there are no consequences ?

I don't question the fact they come up with anti-social behavior all the time and are doing a public service dealing with it.

My point is, is it OK for them to mete out potentially life threatening injury and not face any consequences ?

There you did it again. You are assuming that an injury was possibly suffered and was the fault of the security guards!!!!!!

Have you ever tried to restrain or even talk down a drunk when they are determined to carry out an action? Me thinks you have never. They can be absolutely messy, determined, falling all over the place, threatening, abusive and sometimes couldn't give a flying **** about their own safety or that of others. Drunk people sometimes do the craziest things that a person would not expect.

Attempting to blame security guards for what potentially could have been the drunks fault is not good nor is right.

What you should have asked "Is it right that a security guard beats a person and causing them to suffer an injury"? rather than pick this poor example.

MOH

Aside from the guy hitting his head, are they allowed to actually pull someone off a train? Bit surprised at that.

BenjAii

I'm surprised most peoples reaction on the thread seems to be concern about possible false allegations against the train guards and so little for the injured man.

Can I just reiterate again, if i haven't made it clear enough already, that while i had turned the corner in the few seconds between the two of them pulling at him and the fall, it's quite clear they caused it.

I accept they may have done it accidentally, but there was very little question given the violence of the noise of his skull hitting metal that it hit with some momentum (i.e pulled/pushed towards it) and it was very unlikely to be an unaided fall, indeed I hadn't looked away long enough for that to happen - the train guards actions had to have contributed, I saw the beginning of them pulling him.

This isn't a case of me making wild assumptions; the guards did this, either accidentally or deliberately.

CDfm

So why didnt you intervene or find an inspector or call the Gardai on your mobile.

These were all options open to you.

Whats more you can still make a complaint or a statement now.

You dont have the full facts and maybe they exceeded their powers of using reaonable force.

Are you a concerned member of the public or really an Irish Rail employee who witnessed something terrible.

What would happen next time -will they throw someone under a train for kicks?

r3nu4l

BenjAii wrote: »

I'm surprised most peoples reaction on the thread seems to be concern about possible false allegations against the train guards and so little for the injured man.

Well, your post showed little concern for the man and instead focused on the train guards, what do you expect people to do but follow your lead? You are making some serious accusations for someone who admits they DID NOT SEE the ENTIRE incident!...

Can I just reiterate again, if i haven't made it clear enough already, that while i had turned the corner in the few seconds between the two of them pulling at him and the fall, it's quite clear they caused it.

So you are 100% sure that he didn't turn to punch them, trip and fall? 100%? I've seen fall from standing in a dead faint, the crack of their heads as they hit the ground is enormous and in one case, it reverberated around the room. Two minutes later, the guy was walking and talking, sent to hospital and there was no injury found. Now that was loud and I was sure his skull was fractured...but no. Maybe you are making another assumption?

Lets' say he did turn to lash out and he fell, how is that the train guards fault? I once saw a man pull himself away from someone who grabbed him and as he did he fell into the road and almost got run over by a car. Whose fault was that? Not the guy who grabbed him.

I accept they may have done it accidentally, but there was very little question given the violence of the noise of his skull hitting metal that it hit with some momentum (i.e pulled/pushed towards it) and it was very unlikely to be an unaided fall, indeed I hadn't looked away long enough for that to happen - the train guards actions had to have contributed, I saw the beginning of them pulling him.

But not the end of the incident, wild assumptions mate. Sorry.

This isn't a case of me making wild assumptions; the guards did this, either accidentally or deliberately.

So you were so concerned about this man that you waited for the gardaí to arrive and gave your name to them as a witness should it go to court? Or did you call them later to give your name as a witness?

amacachi

MOH wrote: »

Aside from the guy hitting his head, are they allowed to actually pull someone off a train? Bit surprised at that.

Yeah, they shouldn't be allowed to touch anybody. They shouldn't be allowed to stand in front of the doors to block someone with no ticket getting onto the train, the person might run into them and hurt himself.

i71jskz5xu42pb

CDfm wrote: »

So why didnt you intervene or find an inspector or call the Gardai on your mobile.

Too busy starting a thread on boards?

Celticfire

BenjAii wrote: »

I'm surprised most peoples reaction on the thread seems to be concern about possible false allegations against the train guards and so little for the injured man.

Can I just reiterate again, if i haven't made it clear enough already, that while i had turned the corner in the few seconds between the two of them pulling at him and the fall, it's quite clear they caused it.

I accept they may have done it accidentally, but there was very little question given the violence of the noise of his skull hitting metal that it hit with some momentum (i.e pulled/pushed towards it) and it was very unlikely to be an unaided fall, indeed I hadn't looked away long enough for that to happen - the train guards actions had to have contributed, I saw the beginning of them pulling him.

This isn't a case of me making wild assumptions; the guards did this, either accidentally or deliberately.

So going by your logic if I go to render assistance to a drunk and they stand up , tell me to F*uck off and leave them alone, push me away and then stumble and fall and bang their head it's My fault? If I'd just left them alone they wouldn't have fallen.......

Your post if so full of assumptions it's absurd. Assume the drunk got off at the next stop and fell in front of the train, would the security guards get the blame again for not removing him?

BenjAii

In reply to CD, no I haven't reported this to the Gardai.

In reply to R3, can I just reiterate again, I'm sure the train security caused this. The absolute maximum time I was looking away was 5 seconds. I had looked away as I turned the corner at the exit and had gone little more than a few feet.

There was no time for the man to have been let go of by the train guards and fall unaided.

Can we put to rest the issue of whether I didn't see what happened, I did, I was merely trying to be fair and balanced in saying I couldn't see if it was accidental or deliberate, there is no doubt in my mind from what I saw that the train guards caused this.

In which case the issue for debate is surely whether we are comfortable with security guards inflicting potentially life threatening injuries (whether accidental or not) in the course of their duties.

i71jskz5xu42pb

BenjAii wrote: »

Can we put to rest the issue of whether I didn't see what happened, I did

No you didn't. You say as much in your first post. You then go on to invent a load of drivel about how fast his head was going (15-20 mph) and how he possibly had a fractured skull.

BenjAii wrote: »

In which case the issue for debate is surely whether we are comfortable with security guards inflicting potentially life threatening injuries (whether accidental or not) in the course of their duties.

I'm sure I speak for everybody when I say that security guards should be given guns and allowed shoot anybody they don't like the look of. If they are having a bad day they should be allowed shoot you even if they like the look of you. Debate that.

Dinner

BenjAii wrote: »

In reply to CD, no I haven't reported this to the Gardai.

So positive are you that these vicious animals caused this injury that you just left the train station.

You were so concerned about the welfare of the man that you ran straight to your computer to let the internet know of the great injustice that occured.

But you didn't contact the guards? You moan that these men won't lose their jobs but your obviously not concerned enough to contact the guards.

If you are that convinced that it was done intentionally then step away from the computer and do something! Or are you not that convinced, after all, you didn't see the man hit the hollow metal bin but the sound was clearly enough for the average citizen to diagnose an imoact comparable to a 15-20mph crash that could possibly fracture a skull.

brian_ire

BenjAii wrote: »

In which case the issue for debate is surely whether we are comfortable with security guards inflicting potentially life threatening injuries (whether accidental or not) in the course of their duties.

Been a while since i read a non "after-hours" thread and scratched my head so much with confusion!

If your initial intention was to create a debate about whether security guards should be allowed to "inflict potentially life threatening injuries"... then obviously the answer is no.

Secondly, are you aware how absurd the sentence "whether we are comfortable with security guards inflicting potentially life threatening injuries (whether accidental or not)"

There is an ocean of difference between an accident "or not". If its an accident then its comparable to saying "are you comfortable with people causing life threatening injuries by using their cars". If its an accident i'm really puzzled as to where your "debate" is.

Oh and also in future, and this is purely in my opinion, if you are going to use an example to drive the debate, try pick one that is not littered with assumptions.

Brian

r3nu4l

BenjAii wrote: »

In reply to R3, can I just reiterate again, I'm sure the train security caused this. The absolute maximum time I was looking away was 5 seconds. I had looked away as I turned the corner at the exit and had gone little more than a few feet.

There was no time for the man to have been let go of by the train guards and fall unaided.

Man honestly, I'm not having a go at you but 5 seconds??? Even a split second is enough time for something to go wrong. Honestly, you can pull away from someone and fall flat on your back within one second, I've done it myself (sober). Luckily I had the presence of mind to tuck my chin towards my chest so it wouldn't bang off the ground.


Ever turned away from a kid you were supposed to be watching? Within two seconds the damn things disappear!:D Then you find them trying to play in the pond in the garden!! :rolleyes:

With that in mind, I have to say, you did not see the entire incident. You saw something, looked away and then heard a bang. You returned to the scene to see the drunk panned out on the ground and then assume the guards did it simply because they were the last people you saw him in contact with.

How do you know he didn't pull away, push someone else entirely, who pushed him back and caused him to fall? I'd hate to have you on a jury if I was innocent of a crime and had been charged

Celticfire

BenjAii wrote: »

There was no time for the man to have been let go of by the train guards and fall unaided.

Can we put to rest the issue of whether I didn't see what happened, I did, I was merely trying to be fair and balanced in saying I couldn't see if it was accidental or deliberate, there is no doubt in my mind from what I saw that the train guards caused this.

In which case the issue for debate is surely whether we are comfortable with security guards inflicting potentially life threatening injuries (whether accidental or not) in the course of their duties.

You saw nothing! You said so yourself. The problem here is you absolve the drunk of any responsibility for his actions and any injury he may have caused to himself. Your tread title is misleading .

BenjAii

I posted this up here to see how people felt about the issue of security guards causing potentially serious injury to people in the course of their duties.

It seems to have turned into a debate about whether I am a reliable witness or not. If I haven't made this 100% clear, I'll repeat myself one more time.

There is no doubt in mind that the train security caused this to happen. From me looking away at the 2 men pulling him away from the train to his head hitting the bin, was a few seconds, 5 at maximum.

There is also no doubt in my mind how serious and disturbing the impact was with a view to potential serious head injury.

Can that put to rest the issue of whether I am making assumptions or not, I am 100% sure of the above facts based on my observations.

The issue here is whether people are comfortable with security guards inflicting this level of injury on the public (accepting they may have had a previous history with this man I didn't see).

Dinner

BenjAii wrote: »

Can that put to rest the issue of whether I am making assumptions or not, I am 100% sure of the above facts based on my observations.

But you ARE making an assumption! You did not see the fall or see the man banging his head. So you are just filling in the blanks in your head and taking it as fact. For all you know the bin could have jumped up, belted the man sat back in its place.

In answer to your original point. No, train guards should not be allowed to inflict damage upon a person. And so far, no one knows whether they did or not.

Have you contacted the guards yet or are you not finished arguing with the internet?

Rawr

My, this debate is heating up

Just to throw in my own few cents here, I can see what BenjAii's point is. Should Security Guards be able to injure people, thus making trains / train stations, apparently less safe of the sake of security?

Fair enough, I'd say, worth some debate. But, at the same time, it's a very general argument. It would extend into the realm of private securty as a whole and even into public security, Gardai etc..

AlexSmart made a very good point earlier. IE probably don't want those guards there at all, they are after all, a cost to them. But alas, anti-social behaviour has created a need for them. And so, now we have Train Security at stations and on board from time-to-time.

Putting their manners to one side, the guards are there to secure the rail network for IE and it's customers. Be it from trespassers, drunken folk or other anti-social elements (nearly a thread topic in itself, that one).

A security guard can be in one part a deterrant to the above (by being visable) and on the other part a safe-guard against it. And yes...that can involve physically ejecting people. That also includes a risk of injury for all involved. The same is true for the Gardai and their duties.

For me, as long as these guards are correctly trained, and regulated against the abuse of their duties, then I'm fine with them being around. I'd actually prefer Transport Gardai, but this is ok.

Celticfire

Please explain how a drunk falling over is an infliction of violence ?

BenjAii

Celticfire wrote: »

Please explain how a drunk falling over is an infliction of violence ?

Sorry Celtic, I thought I had made this 100% clear by now.

The man didn't fall over. I saw the 2 security guards pulling him away from the train, looked away for an absolute maximum of 5 seconds, in which time his skull made a high velocity impact with a metal rubbish bin and he appeared to be unconscious.

There was absolutely no time for the guards to have let go of him and him to have fallen unaided, in addition such was the strentgh of the impact, based on the sound, it was in line with someone having gained momentum from having their head pushed/pulled toward the bin.

My only doubt is whether it happened accidentally or was deliberate.

I hope this has cleared this up once and for all.

Stark

BenjAii wrote: »

The man didn't fall over. I saw the 2 security guards pulling him away from the train, looked away for an absolute maximum of 5 seconds, in which time his skull made a high velocity impact with a metal rubbish bin and he appeared to be unconscious.

In other words, you didn't actually see what happened.

BenjAii wrote:

There was absolutely no time for the guards to have let go of him and him to have fallen unaided, in addition such was the strentgh of the impact, based on the sound, it was in line with someone having gained momentum from having their head pushed/pulled toward the bin.

5 seconds isn't enough time for someone to fall over!?

r3nu4l

So, imagine you are watching a football match and watch Wayne Rooney running towards a goal with the ball at his feet. You turn away for 5 seconds, hear the crowd go wild, turn back to see the ball in the back of the net, do you assume Rooney scored because "5 seconds isn't enough time for him to have passed the ball to someone else"?

Or do you wait to hear the commentator who actually SAW THE ENTIRE INCIDENT, not just a portion of it, say "Rooney cheekily passed the ball to his team mate who pounded it into the back of the net".

I'm at a loss to understand you OP. You seem to think that time stood still during those 5 seconds or that if you didn't see something, it's okay to fill in the blanks with what you think happened. Bizarre.

There's obviously no talking to you so I'm out of this thread. I hope you're never in a similar situation as those guards yourself where some toerag* accuses you of something based on what they saw 5 seconds earlier.

*I'm not calling you a toerag but if someone did to me what you appear to be doing to these guards (tarnishing their reputations based on what you think happened), that's what I would think of them.

Dinner

BenjAii wrote: »

There was absolutely no time for the guards to have let go of him and him to have fallen unaided, in addition such was the strentgh of the impact, based on the sound, it was in line with someone having gained momentum from having their head pushed/pulled toward the bin.

Have you done extensive studies into the noise made by hollow metal bins and the force required to make them?

daveharnett

BenjAii wrote: »

There is no doubt in mind that the train security caused this to happen.

And yet based on your account, everyone else is doubting it.

Given that the guy in question 'lunged' for the departing dart while the two guards were addressing him, is it not possible that he may have begun to struggle/swung an elbow/whatever while you were looking elsewhere?

paulm17781

There is also a chance he's a good actor. He may have "collapsed" after being pulled back by them so he had legal precedent. I know a chap who does this if anyone so much as touches him (in an aggressive manner) that way, he's "defending" himself.

There are two things the OP does not know:

1) if the security guards actually caused it
2) if the guy was even remotely hurt

CDfm

daveharnett wrote: »

And yet based on your account, everyone else is doubting it.

Given that the guy in question 'lunged' for the departing dart while the two guards were addressing him, is it not possible that he may have begun to struggle/swung an elbow/whatever while you were looking elsewhere?

im not doubting it.

i witnessed a similar incident at the same station years back and a friend actually reported it.

Im surprised that BenjAii has not done so

Deadeyes

This bring to mind an incident that happened to me in a place I used to work. A customer had tried to attract my attention, but I wasn't feeling too good and ignored him. He then came after me, at this point I fainted, he tried to catch me but wasn't close enough. I smacked my head off a tiled floor loud enough for a lot of people to hear, including one the bouncers. The bouncer heard the noise and saw me lying apparently uncouncious on the ground with the customer standing over me. Luckily for the customer the bouncer had some ground to cover before he got over to us and the customer had time to shout out "he fainted, he fainted." I can only imagine what would have happened to that guy if the bouncer had made the kind of assumptions BenjAii is making.