Court for no insurance..

Karl_2008

A friend of mine is due in court any time now. He was stopped at a check point last year for insurance he had just bought the car 2 days prior to being stoped and was waiting on his insurance to change over he got a summons for no insurance/Failure to produce. Just wondering has anybody being up in court for this kind of thing if so what happened will he be banned etc. The reason i ask is i work for him (as he has his own small bussiness) we are painters if he looses his linsce that means im out of a job as he needs the car for work.. if anybody has any info please reply nicley and DONT SHOOT THE MESSANGER IM ONLY ASKING...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Alanstrainor

Moved from Learning to Drive;)

Karl_2008

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Moved from Learning to Drive;)

sorry am new to this dont really know where to post.
sorry again

Anan1

Karl_2008 wrote: »

he had just bought the car 2 days prior to being stoped and was waiting on his insurance to change over

Was he actually uninsured, or had the cert & disc just not arrived yet? Insurance can be changed over instantly by phone, but the paperwork takes a couple of days to arrive.

Also, was the van already registered to him? And did his insurance cover him for driving other vehicles?

Alanstrainor

Karl_2008 wrote: »

sorry am new to this dont really know where to post.
sorry again

No worries:)

eth0_

If he had changed the insurance over via a phone call to his insurer, this will be throw out of court once he shows the insurance disc and the date he bought the car.

If he hadn't changed the insurance over, I hope they throw the book at him.

Karl_2008

Anan1 wrote: »

Was he actually uninsured, or had the cert & disc just not arrived yet? Insurance can be changed over instantly by phone, but the paperwork takes a couple of days to arrive.

Also, was the van already registered to him? And did his insurance cover him for driving other vehicles?

yes it was registered to him it was a car bran new he just got it form the garage where he traded in a old van im not sure i think the van was only 3rd party insurance but he rang up to change it over the phone it took almost a week for new policy to come out in the post and he forgot to produce it, he has since then changed the insurance again to a cheaper rate and fully comp as it was over a year ago when he was stoped.

Anan1

Karl_2008 wrote: »

yes it was registered to him it was a car bran new he just got it form the garage where he traded in a old van im not sure i think the van was only 3rd party insurance but he rang up to change it over the phone it took almost a week for new policy to come out in the post and he forgot to produce it, he has since then changed the insurance again to a cheaper rate and fully comp as it was over a year ago when he was stoped.

If he changed it over the phone when he collected the new van then the worst they can charge him with is failure to display a valid ins disc and failure to produce proof of ins. Neither of these is anywhere near as serious as driving without insurance, and they may even be struck out when he provides proof that he was insured.

Karl_2008

Anan1 wrote: »

If he changed it over the phone when he collected the new van then the worst they can charge him with is failure to display a valid ins disc and failure to produce proof of ins. Neither of these is anywhere near as serious as driving without insurance, and they may even be struck out when he provides proof that he was insured.

Thanks alot i will pass this on.. I hope i have a job to go back to next week would hate to be laid off so near to christmas
Thanks again.

craichoe

Karl_2008 wrote: »

Thanks alot i will pass this on.. I hope i have a job to go back to next week would hate to be laid off so near to christmas
Thanks again.

So he had insurance .. but he just didnt have the certificate. So its not so bad.

Anan1

No probs, hope it all works out for him.

TheNog

Tell your friend he must produce his insurance certificate in court not the disc. The disc will only indicate the car is insured, not who is insured on it.

eth0_

Anan1 wrote: »

If he changed it over the phone when he collected the new van then the worst they can charge him with is failure to display a valid ins disc and failure to produce proof of ins. Neither of these is anywhere near as serious as driving without insurance, and they may even be struck out when he provides proof that he was insured.

But how can they charge you with this? You can't insure the car until you buy it, are you supposed to leave it in the dealers forecourt until you receive your disc, which can take a week or more?

When I got my current car, Zurich gave me my policy number over the phone and said "If you happen to be stopped by the guards you can quote them this numer". Quinn gave me the same spiel on my previous car.

It's completely unreasonable to expect people to have their insurance disc displayed only 2 days after purchasing a new car.

Yakult

^Well they mightent even charge him on that. The guards cant take any risk with a case like this, but Im pretty sure once he can prove he only had the car two days and that he was insured he wont be fined anything. Fingers crossed anyway.

Anan1

eth0_ wrote: »

But how can they charge you with this? You can't insure the car until you buy it, are you supposed to leave it in the dealers forecourt until you receive your disc, which can take a week or more?

Either that or collect the disc in person.

eth0_ wrote: »

When I got my current car, Zurich gave me my policy number over the phone and said "If you happen to be stopped by the guards you can quote them this numer". Quinn gave me the same spiel on my previous car.

Most Gardai will accept that.

eth0_ wrote: »

It's completely unreasonable to expect people to have their insurance disc displayed only 2 days after purchasing a new car.

It can be difficult, which is why the Gardai are generally accommodating. At the end of the day, though, it's the law.

eth0_

Anan1 wrote: »

Either that or collect the disc in person.

Considering the discs are made in a central/head office, that would be impossible for most people.

TheNog

eth0_ wrote: »

But how can they charge you with this? You can't insure the car until you buy it, are you supposed to leave it in the dealers forecourt until you receive your disc, which can take a week or more?

When I got my current car, Zurich gave me my policy number over the phone and said "If you happen to be stopped by the guards you can quote them this numer". Quinn gave me the same spiel on my previous car.

It's completely unreasonable to expect people to have their insurance disc displayed only 2 days after purchasing a new car.

The failure to display insurance or tax discs I am sure was only brought into law to ensure people actually display them. Tbh I have never seen a person being summonsed to court for either of these offences. It would be harsh to do so.

The OPs friend was probably only the standard summons for failing to produce insurance and having no insurance. There is a definite offence for failing to produce so it is reasonable to assume the person may not have insurance. It is up to the person to prove in court they did have insurance by producing the certificate to the garda either before the court starts or when their case is called. If everything is ok then the no insurance is struck out but the failing to produce still stands.

R_H_C_P wrote: »

^Well they mightent even charge him on that. The guards cant take any risk with a case like this, but Im pretty sure once he can prove he only had the car two days and that he was insured he wont be fined anything. Fingers crossed anyway.

correct he would not be fined anything if he has insurance on the no insurance summons but he can be fined for failing to produce. usually the fine can be between €50 to €200

TheNog

eth0_ wrote: »

Considering the discs are made in a central/head office, that would be impossible for most people.

correct it would be impossible to collect sometimes which is why people are given the chance to produce within the 10 days.

Anan1

eth0_ wrote: »

Considering the discs are made in a central/head office, that would be impossible for most people.

I can't say for every insurance company in Ireland, but AXA and Hibernian will print them out for you on the spot in a local office.

Robbo

Anan1 wrote: »

I can't say for every insurance company in Ireland, but AXA and Hibernian will print them out for you on the spot in a local office.

The broker I deal with has printed them up on the spot for a couple of times before.

Vegeta

My brother was covered with Hibernian under my dad. On the policy it specifically said that named drivers were covered to drive other cars.

Insurance was renewed at the end of August. 2 weeks later my brother is stopped at a checkpoint driving my dad's car and asked to produce his insurance. No problem he thinks

Goes home, digs out new policy and cover has changed. He was no longer covered to drive other peoples cars.

Luckily we had the 2 policies but had to show the judge how the cover on the policy had changed and we were all unaware.

Very lucky not to be banned from driving for a year. Also lucky he didn't have an accident in those 2 weeks.

Got 5 penalty points though

Fey!

Vegeta wrote: »

in post above

I thought that unless you specifically cancel or change your policy, the insurance company can't make any changes, even at renewal time.

Could be well worth checking out and fighting to get the points taken off.

Eoin

eth0_ wrote: »

Considering the discs are made in a central/head office, that would be impossible for most people.

You can always start your policy a few days early and have the disc in hand when you go to collect the car.

Anan1

eoin_s wrote: »

You can always start your policy a few days early and have the disc in hand when you go to collect the car.

You wouldn't have to start the policy early, just informing the ins co would be enough. Assuming (and this is a big assumption) that you had the reg of the car a few days in advance.

Karl_2008

Vegeta wrote: »

My brother was covered with Hibernian under my dad. On the policy it specifically said that named drivers were covered to drive other cars.

Insurance was renewed at the end of August. 2 weeks later my brother is stopped at a checkpoint driving my dad's car and asked to produce his insurance. No problem he thinks

Goes home, digs out new policy and cover has changed. He was no longer covered to drive other peoples cars.

Luckily we had the 2 policies but had to show the judge how the cover on the policy had changed and we were all unaware.

Very lucky not to be banned from driving for a year. Also lucky he didn't have an accident in those 2 weeks.

Got 5 penalty points though

The reason why i had asked this question from the start was because i knew a woman that was nearley in the same boat as my friend the only difference was when she changed her insurance over to a different car the girl on the phone said everything would be ok and her new policy and details would be in the post. heres were it changes, she was paying her insurance in monthly instalments ie : deposit up front and what ever she was paying a month was done trough her direct debits. So she was stoped again at a police check she told this to the gaurds like my firend did that she had just changed over ect ect they gave her 10 days to produce as usual so she got a letter in the post from the insurance ( she was thinking it was her new policy and disc) the letter said we regret to inform you that when we to your bank it came came back as not paid ( Her wages wernt put in on time due to sick leave from work) so we have cancelled your policy. So basicly when she was stoped by the gards on that date her insurance had already being cancelled with out her even knowing.. Anyway when it was brought to court she explained all this to the gaurd that she was totally un aware of the circumstances ect. anyway she got a 1 year ban and a fine of €1500. she has since lost her job because she was a home nurse.

Fey!

eoin_s wrote: »

You can always start your policy a few days early and have the disc in hand when you go to collect the car.

So you drive to the garage in your old car which, being registered to you, your policy won't cover you on...

Karl_2008

Fey! wrote: »

So you drive to the garage in your old car which, being registered to you, your policy won't cover you on...

i know what a load of ****e its all just money money money she should have brought the insurance company to court

ART6

Karl_2008 wrote: »

So basicly when she was stoped by the gards on that date her insurance had already being cancelled with out her even knowing.. Anyway when it was brought to court she explained all this to the gaurd that she was totally un aware of the circumstances ect. anyway she got a 1 year ban and a fine of €1500. she has since lost her job because she was a home nurse.

This is evidence if we needed it that the law is blind -- blind stupid. OK, she was uninsured, and if she'd had a blameworthy accident she'd be in big trouble. But she had done everything right and had no way of knowing that she wasn't covered. Is the law so rigid that the judge couldn't exercise discretion, and give a good kick to the insurers for not warning her by telephone? After all, if she did have a blameworth accident and was uninsured, there is a fund to compensate the victim.

Anan1

ART6 wrote: »

But she had done everything right and had no way of knowing that she wasn't covered.

?? What about paying for her insurance?

Eoin

Anan1 wrote: »

You wouldn't have to start the policy early, just informing the ins co would be enough. Assuming (and this is a big assumption) that you had the reg of the car a few days in advance.

Fey! wrote: »

So you drive to the garage in your old car which, being registered to you, your policy won't cover you on...

Sorry - I was just talking about new policies.

I guess it depends on the exact wording of the legislation if you are carrying an invalid insurance disc until you get your updated one. While it may not be something you are done for, it's still a kind of catch 22 situation.

ART6

Anan1 wrote: »

?? What about paying for her insurance?

Unless I misread the post, she didn't know she hadn't.

Karl_2008

ART6 wrote: »

Unless I misread the post, she didn't know she hadn't.

Any more updates has anybody on here being in this situation there self or know somebody that has.. The post was not about her it was about my friend if you read the start of what i worte in the first page you will see the situation.

Jo King

ART6 wrote: »

Unless I misread the post, she didn't know she hadn't.

There is a lot of nonsense being posted in this thread.
1. An insurance disc does not have to be displayed for 10 days after the insurance cover has been arranged. This is provided in the statutory instrument which creates the offence of non display.

2. If there was cover in place at the time a vehicle is stopped the best thing to do is get written confirmation from the insurance company and go to the prosecuting guard. If he is satisfied he will agree to strike out the case when it is called in court. It is as well to be in court in any case.

3. When an insurance company cancels cover it is required to give 7 days notice in writing to the insured. Cases are dismissed in court regularly when it is shown that this has not been done.

4. There is a barrister in Dublin getting cases dismissed against people driving cars on which they are not named as drivers on the policy. This is done using European legislation.

Many if not all of the people described as being convicted in this thread would not have been convicted if they had proper legal representation in court.
It may cost money but it is better than being convicted of driving without insurance. In addition to a possible ban and fine there is a criminal record and if there are any future motoring offences the fact of having a conviction will make it worse.

Anan1

ART6 wrote: »

Unless I misread the post, she didn't know she hadn't.

So how did she do everything right?;)

TheNog

Karl_2008 wrote: »

The reason why i had asked this question from the start was because i knew a woman that was nearley in the same boat as my friend the only difference was when she changed her insurance over to a different car the girl on the phone said everything would be ok and her new policy and details would be in the post. heres were it changes, she was paying her insurance in monthly instalments ie : deposit up front and what ever she was paying a month was done trough her direct debits. So she was stoped again at a police check she told this to the gaurds like my firend did that she had just changed over ect ect they gave her 10 days to produce as usual so she got a letter in the post from the insurance ( she was thinking it was her new policy and disc) the letter said we regret to inform you that when we to your bank it came came back as not paid ( Her wages wernt put in on time due to sick leave from work) so we have cancelled your policy. So basicly when she was stoped by the gards on that date her insurance had already being cancelled with out her even knowing.. Anyway when it was brought to court she explained all this to the gaurd that she was totally un aware of the circumstances ect. anyway she got a 1 year ban and a fine of €1500. she has since lost her job because she was a home nurse.

If your friend did not receive notification her policy was about to be cancelled then she should get onto the Insurance Federation (I think) and complain. This is a very serious breach of what should be in the customer charter and causing your friend to unwittingly break the law.

Explaining it to the guard at the court is not good enough. She should have had proof that this happened and she would have allowed the judge discretion. Her course of action now should be to gather the necessary information such as when the policy was cancelled, notice sent to her in the post and how many days notice she was given to the cancellation date. She should then go to a solicitor and lodge an appeal to the Circuit Court. Once the appeal is heard she should be allowed back driver and the fine returned to her.

ART6 wrote: »

This is evidence if we needed it that the law is blind -- blind stupid. OK, she was uninsured, and if she'd had a blameworthy accident she'd be in big trouble. But she had done everything right and had no way of knowing that she wasn't covered. Is the law so rigid that the judge couldn't exercise discretion, and give a good kick to the insurers for not warning her by telephone? After all, if she did have a blameworth accident and was uninsured, there is a fund to compensate the victim.

In fairness I am presuming the woman went to court without any evidence or having spoken to the garda a few days before the court appearance so there was no way to prove her story. People come up with some of the craziest stories to get off so it is hard to differeniate. Also Gardai can not just call the insurance company and access details of a person's policy due to the Data Protection Act.

eth0_

Karl_2008 wrote: »

the letter said we regret to inform you that when we to your bank it came came back as not paid ( Her wages wernt put in on time due to sick leave from work) so we have cancelled your policy. So basicly when she was stoped by the gards on that date her insurance had already being cancelled with out her even knowing.

I don't believe this story. No insurance company would cancel your cover because you missed ONE direct debit payment.

Karl_2008

eth0_ wrote: »

I don't believe this story. No insurance company would cancel your cover because you missed ONE direct debit payment.

A friend of mine is due in court any time now. He was stopped at a check point last year for insurance he had just bought the car 2 days prior to being stoped and was waiting on his insurance to change over he got a summons for no insurance/Failure to produce. Just wondering has anybody being up in court for this kind of thing if so what happened will he be banned etc. The reason i ask is i work for him (as he has his own small bussiness) we are painters if he looses his linsce that means im out of a job as he needs the car for work.. if anybody has any info please reply nicley and DONT SHOOT THE MESSANGER IM ONLY ASKING...

THIS IS MY ORIGNAL QUESTION I WAS JUST POINTING OUT THAT OTHER STORY TO A ANSWER I GOT AND YES OF COURSE AN INSURANCE COMPANY CAN CANCEL YOU POLICY IF U MISS ONE DIRECT DEBIT PAYMENT AS I HAVE HEARD OF THIS HAPPENING IN MORE THAT ONE occasion

Karl_2008

eth0_ wrote: »

I don't believe this story. No insurance company would cancel your cover because you missed ONE direct debit payment.

yes they did and i heard it happen more than once of course they will cancel if you miss your direct debit payment..

Jo King

Karl_2008 wrote: »

yes they did and i heard it happen more than once of course they will cancel if you miss your direct debit payment..

There is one insurance company which is notorious for doing it. The cancellation is only effective if there has been 7 days notice in writing. the same company often does not give 7 days notice. Considerable pressure (court proceedings) has to be put on this company to make it admit that they were on risk at the time the driver was stopped.
Most people charged with driving without insurance do not get proper legal representation. The burden of proving insurance in on the motorist. Telling the judge a story about transfer of cover - missed direct debits etc. is no use unless the fact of cover is established. A lot of people (even some solicitors) make a total mess of it.

eth0_

Karl_2008 wrote: »

yes they did and i heard it happen more than once of course they will cancel if you miss your direct debit payment..

NO, THEY DON'T.
Legally they must inform you in writing and give you 7 days grace to pay the arrears, after that your policy will be cancelled.

Karl_2008

eth0_ wrote: »

NO, THEY DON'T.
Legally they must inform you in writing and give you 7 days grace to pay the arrears, after that your policy will be cancelled.

well thats not what i have heard..

craichoe

Karl_2008 wrote: »

well thats not what i have heard..

Well you heard wrong then.

Karl_2008

craichoe wrote: »

Well you heard wrong then.

Some how i dont think i have

eth0_

Karl_2008 wrote: »

Some how i dont think i have

Sorry, you're either a complete idiot or a troll.
I'm reporting your post.

Karl_2008

eth0_ wrote: »

Sorry, you're either a complete idiot or a troll.
I'm reporting your post.

Reporting my post for what. All i did was ask a few simple questions and gave my views i tought thats what this site was all about and i am Neither a IDIOT or a TROLL thanks.

Dave147

As long as he can prove he was insured then there's no problem..

peasant

eth0_ wrote: »

Sorry, you're either a complete idiot or a troll.
I'm reporting your post.

...and you get a warning for your effort ...don't call other people idiots !

Karl_2008

peasant wrote: »

...and you get a warning for your effort ...don't call other people idiots !

i didnt call anyone anything

peasant

Karl_2008 wrote: »

i didnt call anyone anything

and I wasn't talking to you either

Jo King

Dave147 wrote: »

As long as he can prove he was insured then there's no problem..

That often is the problem. How does he prove that he was insured?

Heroditas

Karl_2008 wrote: »

i know what a load of ****e its all just money money money she should have brought the insurance company to court

Ring the company and say you want the insurance policy to change over at a certain time. Pick the new car up at that allocated time and you will be insured to drive it at that point. :cool: