Question about long-term career in programming

Delirium

Hi everyone.
Am just looking from some input from people about my qualifications and experience with regards to having a long-term career in programming.

Never went to college to study programming, did a 9 month City and Guilds Software development course. Have been working in the same company for about 6-7 years. The job entails programming in either a VB6 or Access frontend with a SQL 2000 backend. So, I code in VB or VBA, and do some scripting in SQL.

Basically, want to know what this will do for me if I decide to move on. Nearly every vacancy ad leads with 3rd level requirements. Also, what would I need to be doing to make myself more likely to get a job if I did apply, i.e learn new programming languages, do a course etc.

Appreciate any feedback.

Evil Phil

I would put 6-7 years experience above a 3rd level qualification. Just go ahead and apply for jobs. If you want to move on you could consider moving into the .Net world.

Khannie

Only corporates actually require a degree / diploma. You'll find that small / medium sized companies value experience and your ability to get the job done more than the piece of paper.

However....(there's always a "but")....my understanding is that the piece of paper is a very obvious way of a potential employer determining that you're able to commit to something medium term and pull it off.

Do you want to move on now?

Delirium

Khannie wrote: »

Only corporates actually require a degree / diploma. You'll find that small / medium sized companies value experience and your ability to get the job done more than the piece of paper.

However....(there's always a "but")....my understanding is that the piece of paper is a very obvious way of a potential employer determining that you're able to commit to something medium term and pull it off.

Do you want to move on now?

Not at the minute, just trying to figure out what I need to do for when I do decide to move.

Delirium

Evil Phil wrote: »

I would put 6-7 years experience above a 3rd level qualification. Just go ahead and apply for jobs. If you want to move on you could consider moving into the .Net world.

Thats good to know. Have actually picked up a book on vb.net, so its good to know I'm at least thinking in the right direction.

DublinDilbert

Are you using any Object Oriented Principals in VB? Or just mainly doing linear programming?

If your happy with OOP basics, as the poster above says start looking at .Net programming (or maybe Java).

It might be worth looking at getting some of the Microsoft .Net training/exams or the sun Java training/exams. If your interested in & like programming you'd be surprised how painless it can be to change between languages.

Delirium

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Are you using any Object Oriented Principals in VB? Or just mainly doing linear programming?

If your happy with OOP basics, as the poster above says start looking at .Net programming (or maybe Java).

It might be worth looking at getting some of the Microsoft .Net training/exams or the sun Java training/exams. If your interested in & like programming you'd be surprised how painless it can be to change between languages.

Well, generally its left up to myself. One problem I wrote had to manage up to 16 RF devices so I wrote a class object to manage all the variables. I'd say said I could do a lot better with the OOP. The boss isn't a programmer so its a case of get it done fast.

Am definitely interested in the programming, really enjoy my work that I'm doing in my current job.

nice1franko

I was in a similar situation as yourself. Did National Vocational Cert in programming, started a job for straight from the course stayed and stayed there 7 years. I also had the same concerns as yourself.

I left last October and, thankfully, had no trouble whatsoever getting interviews/job. I'm mainly a Java/Javascript/SQL developer. I got interviews for the 3 jobs I was interested in despite the fact they all listed 3rd level qualification as a requirement. So, that's that - CV did it's job and lack of degree wasn't (enough of) a deterrent.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to work in a company that regarded a degree as necessary for a programmer.

That said, I was asked why I didn't get a degree and would I consider getting one part time by all of them (i.e. the agency I went with and in each of the interviews).

I told them the truth: I'd always wanted to be a programmer and signed up for the PLC course I did because it was intensive, had a practical curriculum, and it had an excellent record for getting students who did well in it into good programming jobs. Also said I talked to some past students who were doing very well for themselves etc. So it seemed like the ideal way for me to get into programming professionally, counted my lucky stars etc.

Eoin

I've no degree either, and I don't think it's been a big problem. If you only had a couple years experience, it may be a little more of an issue, but with 6 years+ you should be fine.

I'd say it's just standard to put it on job vacancies rather than an actual requirement.

Delirium

Thanks for all the replies guys. Gives me some piece of mind that what I've done so far will be off use to me. Will check out the Microsoft courses.

richardw001

My suggestion is that you should see if your current job will give you time/money towards going back at night or something
You could do it in steps - cert, diploma etc.
I would tend to concur that a degree is not necessary to be a good developer - that said you might find that its still a stumbling block.

If two candidates were going for a job each with 7 years exp. - one has a degree the other hasn't only one is going to be interviewed - who will an employer choose ?
The fact is that most developers out there now in the industry have degree level qualifications.
It might well work in your favour if you decide to go back and do something - aside from bringing your skill set uptodate -it will also more than level the playing field - someone who has 7 years exp and is prepared to go back to college looks better on paper than someone - who has 7 years exp.

Eoin

richardw001 wrote: »

If two candidates were going for a job each with 7 years exp. - one has a degree the other hasn't only one is going to be interviewed - who will an employer choose ?

Yes, but had that person without a degree done one in the first place they would only have 4 years experience.

Karl_2008

you will never get a job in programming you cant even spell..
Good luck in the cup...:D:D:D:D:D

Delirium

Karl_2008 wrote: »

you will never get a job in programming you cant even spell..
Good luck in the cup...:D:D:D:D:D

Karl_2008

Here is a tip... Get a Job..:D:D

Delirium

Karl_2008 wrote: »

Here is a tip... Get a Job..:D:D

Have one, thats the whole point of the thread.

richardw001

eoin_s wrote: »

Yes, but had that person without a degree done one in the first place they would only have 4 years experience.

Depends on whether or not they did the degree at night/part time while working

Evil Phil

Karl_2008 is now banned from the forum.

richardw001

Anyways - all I'm saying is that if you really want to make a career of programming - then I would suggest going back to college at night or part-time.
Someone with all that experience and was in the process/or had gone back to college would be top of likely candidates for any technical position

You'll always be able to get work without a degree if your good enough - that said if you want to maximise your choices/options a degree (even though it is only a piece of paper in the end of the day) will ensure this.
Say for example you want to work abroad ? or you do want to work for a bigger business

Delirium

richardw001 wrote: »

Anyways - all I'm saying is that if you really want to make a career of programming - then I would suggest going back to college at night or part-time.
Someone with all that experience and was in the process/or had gone back to college would be top of likely candidates for any technical position

You'll always be able to get work without a degree if your good enough - that said if you want to maximise your choices/options a degree (even though it is only a piece of paper in the end of the day) will ensure this.
Say for example you want to work abroad ? or you do want to work for a bigger business

Thanks for that richard, get where you're coming from. Definitely something to consider, as you mention it'll probably give me more options.

richardw001

No problems - Be sure to get something out of your company ! - Just because you love coding - does'nt mean that you should do it for free -
If your skills are valuable enough to them - then they should pay for you to go back - even if it just means you are reading .net book on their time rather than your own - in the end of the day they benefit.

In terms of skills - I would be advising Java, JavaScript(Mocha) and maybe a bit of Perl - seems to be the way the whole industry is going.

DublinDilbert

What you could also do would be to get a good .Net/java book, and re-write one of your typical work applications, in .Net/java, on your own time.

You might find a much better / neater way of doing things. You might be able to go back into your Boss and say we can do this job 10 x better in .Net.

DublinDilbert

This might be of interested for you:-

http://www.dcu.ie/prospective/deginfo.php?classname=GDF&originating_school=40

NOT A GRADUATE BUT THINK THIS COURSE IS FOR YOU?
APPLY UNDER THE PROFESSIONAL ENTRY OPTION...


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055367172

dazberry

koth wrote: »

Never went to college to study programming, did a 9 month City and Guilds Software development course. Have been working in the same company for about 6-7 years. The job entails programming in either a VB6 or Access frontend with a SQL 2000 backend. So, I code in VB or VBA, and do some scripting in SQL.

Koth have you been actually developing for all those 6 - 7 years, because if you have you shouldn't have much trouble moving on within your areas of expertise. A degree which would always be of benefit won't be the main driver (at this point in your career).

The issues I see are two fold. Firstly, VB6/SQL2000 are not in the mainstream - but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some demand - its worth looking at the job sites to get a feel for what you have and haven't. Really you need to be looking at how your current skills can move you into more in demand areas - and in that sense I think you should be looking at C#/VB.NET direction.

Secondly, your 6 or 7 years could still be bad experience. To give you an idea, I interviewed a guy a couple of years ago that had spent 8 years in a particular IT company. Although he was full of his own confidence - it was like interviewing a guy with 8 times 1 years experence instead of 1 times 8 years experience - he'd never left his comfort zone and had never been pushed to do so.

There's no reason to need a degree to for instance display an interest and knowledge in software engineering. There are enough newsgroups and internet resources these days without having to trawl thru' Hodges Figges trying to get a glipse of whats going on - so really its in your hands if you want it

D.

Delirium

dazberry wrote: »

Koth have you been actually developing for all those 6 - 7 years, because if you have you shouldn't have much trouble moving on within your areas of expertise. A degree which would always be of benefit won't be the main driver (at this point in your career).

Have been developing the 6-7 years, but I had a very basic VB6 level when I started and zero SQL2000 knowledge. So, its developing and learning as I go.

The issues I see are two fold. Firstly, VB6/SQL2000 are not in the mainstream - but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some demand - its worth looking at the job sites to get a feel for what you have and haven't. Really you need to be looking at how your current skills can move you into more in demand areas - and in that sense I think you should be looking at C#/VB.NET direction.

Kinda figured that about VB6. Thats why I'm really interested at the minute in getting to grips with VB.net.

Secondly, your 6 or 7 years could still be bad experience. To give you an idea, I interviewed a guy a couple of years ago that had spent 8 years in a particular IT company. Although he was full of his own confidence - it was like interviewing a guy with 8 times 1 years experence instead of 1 times 8 years experience - he'd never left his comfort zone and had never been pushed to do so.

This is actually a big concern for me, as I've only worked for this company. For about 80-90% of my time there I've been the only programmer so I can't gauge my ability against anyone in the company.

There's no reason to need a degree to for instance display an interest and knowledge in software engineering. There are enough newsgroups and internet resources these days without having to trawl thru' Hodges Figges trying to get a glipse of whats going on - so really its in your hands if you want it

D.

Thanks for that dazberry. Yeah, I do want to do programming, at times I couldn't imagine doing any other job.

dazberry

koth wrote: »

Kinda figured that about VB6. Thats why I'm really interested at the minute in getting to grips with VB.net.

Well get thyself onto the interweb and/or down to hodges figgis (or similar) and get a start!!! I've interviewed a lot of people in the past. I'm the sort of person that if I'm interviewing someone - in the good cop vain I really root for the person and want them to do well. The problem I've found is that a lot of people have the experience on their CV, but not in their head and its really disappointing. Its really great to have someone in front of you that has a genuine interest in what they do. So yeah, get out there!!!

koth wrote: »

This is actually a big concern for me, as I've only worked for this company. For about 80-90% of my time there I've been the only programmer so I can't gauge my ability against anyone in the company.

Its not necessarily a big issue, at the same time I've interviewed contractors with 10+ years experience from multiple jobs and you realise very quickly that all they've left is a trail of destruction and misery - so there's no hard and fast rule. One thing to definitely consider is your ability to teamwork - I never fully appreciated it until I found myself on a team that splintered due soley to the actions of one developer and the refusal of management to address it. It was depressing.

D.

serfboard

Here's an anecdote that may interest you in relation to the degree situation.

Colleague of mine had a job, no degree and went looking for other jobs. No luck, each person mentioned lack of degree. He then signed up for an evening degree course and tried again.

Employers were very impressed with this and he landed a job which he wanted. He then gave up the course! (And still kept the job ... "it didn't work out")

J-blk

I'd definitely say that experience will help you move up - I don't have a degree either (though I am now working towards a BsC in Computer Science at DIT because ultimately I think there's value in it) but taught myself scripting languages like Perl, Ruby and Python (because I'm not in development but QA and these languages are great for automating just about any test you can think of). After spending a couple of years in my previous job learning more and more (my boss was happy with the results so gave me a lot of leeway to research/learn/experiment with stuff), I decided to move on. I went for a position that required a 3rd level degree according to the posting, a pretty advanced understanding of Ruby and payed about 2x my previous salary... and I got it, based on experience above all else. I've been there a year since and been getting on great. I'd love to have 6-7 years experience, I'm sure it'll be very helpful for you and can't see you having too many problems. If you can pursue a degree though, they why not, to kind of have the "complete package" on your CV?

Edit: just read Serboard's comment there and wanted to add that I had listed the DIT course on my CV when I went for this position, even though I was not starting the course for another two months until after the interview. I might have helped come to think of it .

eth0_

Karl_2008 wrote: »

Here is a tip... Get a Job..:D:D

And you can't even string a sentence together, what hope for you?

chavezychavez

I did my 4 year degree in Comp Sys, finished in 2000 and have been working in the industry since.

My honest opinion would be: - loved college and learned all the fundamentals , programming etc, but its turned out to be the worst case study ever.

The minute you enter a company as an employee, you can forget the majority of what you know. They will train you and expect you to do things their way, regarless of what you think you know or learned in college.

You've a great amount of experince covered now and college shouldn't even be covered in an interview at this stage for you.

Collumbo

koth, with VB, sql server and access, you are where I was about 5 years ago. Nothing wrong with this... but eventually new skills are the most important thing you'll need. I've been lucky in that I moved into .Net about 4 years ago... VB.NET initially, and C# for the last two. Databases were always part of the package.. so know your t-sql...

You say you've bought a book on VB.net... good start, but my advice is if you want to stick with the Microsoft platform, learn C#. While one is no more difficult than the other, C# is really becoming the more industry standard syntax for the .net platform. No harm in knowing what vb.net looks like though. You need to move away from VB6 thinking when writing .Net apps anyway..., so for learning the .Net framework, VB.net is fine (and free to download). Some nice info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Basic_.NET

Collumbo

also... it'd do no harm to know a bit of PHP, MySQL and getting them up and running with APache... all learnable very quickly and used in many places.

none

Just a few pence. If you do stick with MS technologies, go with C#. VB is no longer in favour with MS. Moving to Java could be an even better choice, that's what I myself did. Bruce Eckel also believes VB is close to Java and I thoroughly recommend his Thinking in Java (http://www.mindviewinc.com/Books/). C# is also OK as it's built after Java. I did some work with C# and many things are quite neat but I still love Java more than any other language, maybe, only except VB. VB was the king of RAD and the only language that came close to its height, in my opinion, is Java (despite all their differences). C# won't ever be a cult technology as VB or Java, but it's the best RAD language on Windows now, I agree. With regard to studies, I do think formal education is important. I actually just finished my second degree with DIT but I wouldn't recommend this institution, to be honest. If you have spare time and money, do some evening courses, it disciplines quite well.