Is Diesel worth it in a small car?

Kazbah

Hi All,

Thing of buying a 09 Fiesta (new model). I wanted to get the 1.6 TCDI EcoNetic but apparently that won't be in til later in '09. In Nov 08 they will be getting in a 1.25 petrol and a 1.4 diesel. Was talking to the salesman and he said there is not much demand for small diesel cars and I might find it harder to trade in/sell on later. Given that diesel in now more expensive that petrol I'm not sure if there is much of a saving to be made with the diesel.

1.25 petrol
http://www.whatgreencar.com/view-car/19229/ford-fiesta-1_25_Duratec_82PS_2009_onwards
133g/kg CO2 emissions Motor Tax €150 p.a
49.6 mpg 5.7 litre/100km

1.4 diesel
http://www.whatgreencar.com/view-car/19225/ford-fiesta-1_4_Duratorq_TDCi_68PS_2009_onwards
110g/kg CO2 emissions Motor Tax €100 p.a
67.3 mpg 4.2 litre/100km

minxie

still more miles to the gallon with the diesel and cheaper on motor tax
than the petrol, will save you more long term.........:rolleyes:

Anan1

A 1.4 diesel would have to be worth more than a 1.25 petrol at resale - it's more economical and cheaper to tax. On the other hand, 68bhp from a 1.4 diesel strikes me as very little. I'd wait until you can drive both and know how much each car will cost. As a general principle, though, if you don't drive hard then you'll probably prefer the diesel. And if the purchase prices are in any way similar, the diesel will be a cheaper ownership proposition.

Kazbah

minxie1 wrote: »

still more miles to the gallon with the diesel and cheaper on motor tax
than the petrol, will save you more long term.........:rolleyes:

No need to roll your eyes at me!!

I understand there is some saving to be made in running it but I wanted to weigh this up with how popular it would be - i.e. how easy to get a good return in 2011 (ish).

I have a one hour each way commute to work and do approx. 500 miles per week. Half and half motorway/urban driving.

AFAIK the 1.25P is about 15,000 and the 1.4D is about 17,500 but these all ballpark no list prices yet.

Anan1

That's pretty high mileage - at 40,000kms PA you'd almost certainly be better off financially with the diesel. Apart from the lower running costs, a two-year-old diesel with 80,000kms will be much more saleable than a petrol with the same mileage - diesel buyers are much more accepting of higher mileages than the average petrol buyer.

Gypo

My vote goes to the diesel anyway OP, reasons being...

At 500 miles a week the ~35% better fuel economy will be worthwhile over 3 years.

A 3 year old diesel Fiesta with highish miles will be more palatable than a petrol.

I'd be surprised if the price difference between the 1.25 petrol and 1.4 diesel will be €2500. The current difference is around €1200 and both are in the same VRT / Tax bands as the new model will be.

HashSlinging

70 bhp for a diesel would be fine in a Fiesta, if you needed some more you can remap the 1.4 TDCI to more or less 88bhp only a bit less than the 1.6 TDCI (90bhp)..if you want.. Would be a very nice drive.

E92

Anan1 wrote: »

On the other hand, 68bhp from a 1.4 diesel strikes me as very little.

The base 1.25 has just 59 bhp. There is also an 81 bhp version of the 1.25. Prices start at €15,500, and you get alloys amongst other things as standard.

Dunno if they're offering the 59 bhp model here or not, but I'm assuming that they are since this is the entry level petrol in the UK.

The diesel will be more desirable come resale time - no doubt about it, and the low road tax advantage is an advantage that's only set to increase as the Greens get more of a stranglehold on this environmental nonsense.

Rather oddly(and annoyingly) considering that we now have a tax system that favours diesels, Ford are only bringing in the 1.4 TDCi for Ireland, there will not be a 1.6 TDCi like there is elsewhere, the official line is that there won't be enough demand for diesel in this sector even after the July VRT changes which quite frankly I don't believe or accept.

The petrol would be smoother, quieter, and generally nicer to drive, however if the base petrol has just 59 bhp then I'd run a mile. The 81 bhp 1.25 should be usefully quicker than the 1.4 TDCi(although the diesel would feel considerably quicker off the mark and at low revs, this does not last for too long because diesels run out of steam much earlier than petrols do, if you work the petrol engine hard and are prepared to give it high revs then the petrol will run rings around the diesel for performance), the 59 bhp should be noticeably slower(than the 1.4 TDCi). In fact I'd say forget the low power models and go for either the 1.4 petrol(which is still in the same VRT band) or hold off and get the 1.6 ECOnetic and then you can boast that you have the lowest CO2 emitting car you can buy in Europe, better than the Toyota Smug aka Prius.

Kazbah

I think the 1.6 TDCI will be here in late 2009 but I want to change before then.

Thanks for the advice peeps.

Was trying to figure out exactly fuel costs/savings - taking this week average fuel prices 121.9P and 129.9D. According to the specs both have a fuel capacity of 45L

Petrol:
1.219 X 45 = €54.855 45/5.7LX100km 789km --> 490miles
Diesel:
1.299 X 45 = €58.455 45/4.2LX100km 1071km --> 665miles

I already have a 1.25P Fiesta and it does nowhere near 490 miles on a full tank more like 300 miles. Have I gone wrong somewhere, are the "specs" seriously optimistic or can there be than much of an improvement.

minxie

Kazbah wrote: »

No need to roll your eyes at me!!

I understand there is some saving to be made in running it but I wanted to weigh this up with how popular it would be - i.e. how easy to get a good return in 2011 (ish).

I have a one hour each way commute to work and do approx. 500 miles per week. Half and half motorway/urban driving.

AFAIK the 1.25P is about 15,000 and the 1.4D is about 17,500 but these all ballpark no list prices yet.

hey didnt mean that in a sarcastic way, more economy i meant ...:o

E92

Kazbah wrote: »

I already have a 1.25P Fiesta and it does nowhere near 490 miles on a full tank more like 300 miles. Have I gone wrong somewhere, are the "specs" seriously optimistic or can there be than much of an improvement.

Cars rarely achieve their stated claims. As cars like the Fiesta generally tend to be used in town you should look at the "urban" fuel consumption figure and work from there.

However, some brands and even engine types fare worse than others.

Hybrids can achieve their stated mpg by driving like a nun, but if you drive one like a normal person, then despite what the EU tests may show, a diesel will generally better one for mpg. Indeed the Sunday Times tested the Prius against the BMW 520d and even though in theory the 520d is 10.3 mpg less economical, in practice it was around 2 mpg more economical. Then again some tests will show diesels doing little better than the petrol equivalent.

Underpowered petrols with engines far too small for the size and weight of the car i.e. most cars in this country like 1.4 Focuses and 1.6 Mondeos etc are also hopeless at achieving stated mpg.

Kazbah

E92 wrote: »

Underpowered petrols with engines far too small for the size and weight of the car i.e. most cars in this country like 1.4 Focuses and 1.6 Mondeos etc are also hopeless at achieving stated mpg.

I borrowed my friends Golf 1.4 and thought it moved like a hearse. Needed a lot more go.

Minxie I'll forgive you - was feeling a bit patronized maybe it's my paranoia as a token female

I suppose I will have to drive them both to see if the Diesel has enough power. I need to be able to overtake on my way to work - I'm travelling via tractor and trailor land and a lot of it is gradually uphill.

minxie

Kazbah wrote: »

I borrowed my friends Golf 1.4 and thought it moved like a hearse. Needed a lot more go.

Minxie I'll forgive you - was feeling a bit patronized maybe it's my paranoia as a token female

I suppose I will have to drive them both to see if the Diesel has enough power. I need to be able to overtake on my way to work - I'm travelling via tractor and trailor land and a lot of it is gradually uphill.

no worries.... i know the feeling unfortunately....:(
been petrol all my life but am staying diesel....

bazz26

Did you test drive the new Mazda 2 diesel? It is basically the new Fiesta underneath and the 1.4 diesel is the same HDi unit found in the Fiesta and many Peugeot and Citroen models. It will at least give you an idea how the Fiesta drives.

I would also consider the Opel Corsa 1.3 CDTi, it uses the excellent Fiat Multi-jet diesel engine and comes in 75bhp and 90bhp versions afaik.

Kazbah

bazz26 wrote: »

Did you test drive the new Mazda 2 diesel? It is basically the new Fiesta underneath and the 1.4 diesel is the same HDi unit found in the Fiesta

Good call cheers. If I was buying '09 it would be a Ford let's say I know a man! LOL if thinking of other makes then prob 05/06 models.

professore

Kazbah wrote: »

I borrowed my friends Golf 1.4 and thought it moved like a hearse. Needed a lot more go.

Minxie I'll forgive you - was feeling a bit patronized maybe it's my paranoia as a token female

I suppose I will have to drive them both to see if the Diesel has enough power. I need to be able to overtake on my way to work - I'm travelling via tractor and trailor land and a lot of it is gradually uphill.

I have a 68 bhp 1.4 Peugeot 206 HDi diesel .... AFAIK the same engine as the 1.4 Fiesta. It won't break any land speed records but is not bad, very economical and flies up hills.

Kazbah

professore wrote: »

I have a 68 bhp 1.4 Peugeot 206 HDi diesel .... AFAIK the same engine as the 1.4 Fiesta. It won't break any land speed records but is not bad, very economical and flies up hills.

Cheers good to know.

BostonB

Someone in the family has a 1.3 CDTi Astra (90bhp I think), needs revs, and the turbo cuts in a little late for moving off the line, but when it kicks in, it feels nippy enough. Gets good mileage.

E92

We're in serious luck with the new Fiesta, because Ford is only bringing in the more powerful 81 bhp version of the 1.25 petrol for Ireland:eek: i.e. unlike most other European countries we're not getting the 1.25 with just 59 bhp as the basic engine:)!

A 1.4 TDCi Titanium 5 door is going to be around €18,500, a 1.25 Style 3 door is €15,500, but the diesel mentioned is the top spec Titanium model as opposed to the basic Style for the petrol.

pburns

Kazbah wrote: »

Hi All,
Thing of buying a 09 Fiesta (new model). I wanted to get the 1.6 TCDI EcoNetic but apparently that won't be in til later in '09. In Nov 08 they will be getting in a 1.25 petrol and a 1.4 diesel. Was talking to the salesman and he said there is not much demand for small diesel cars and I might find it harder to trade in/sell on later.

Not much demand for small diesel cars:eek::cool:??

I think it's more a case that they have imediate delivery/better access to the petrol engine ones and a potential scarcity of diesels.

Salemen have tried to tell me black was white on many occasions...

E92

pburns wrote: »

Not much demand for small diesel cars:eek::cool:??

I think it's more a case that they have imediate delivery/better access to the petrol engine ones and a potential scarcity of diesels.

+1. What car makers keep in stock and what consumers want can often be 2 completely different things. Just take these examples: no Bluemotion VWs for Ireland even though most of them would get into a lower VRT/road tax band than the non Bluemotion equivalents, Ford with no 1.6 TDCi Focus, and no Mondeo ECOnetic saloon(though this will be shortly rectified as it will be available for delivery next year), Mazda doesn't sell the diesel 6 in anything other than the 2 most basic trim levels(even though in the UK the diesel is available in all trim levels) etc etc.

I'd bet if there was a good supply of small diesel cars like Fiestas, Yarises etc that they'd sell like hot cakes.

Why the manufacturers don't want to bring them in here is beyond me really.

bazz26

E92 wrote: »

Why the manufacturers don't want to bring them in here is beyond me really.

Because they would be left with large numbers of entry level petrol models that nobody would buy. The Focus and Corolla being perfect examples of this. There are kart loads of 1.4 litre petrol versions of these models that are offered here but not in other markets that manufacturers need to sell.
So stem supply of the diesel models and force alot of people to buy up the petrol models that they have ample supply of.

Hopefully this may change though over the next few years with the introduction of new models as manufacturers come into line with the new VRT/motor tax system here.

Do-more

I enquired about a new Yaris Diesel for the wife about two months back and the salesman said, "no problem but I'm warning you now, don't expect to get a good price for it when you come back to trade it in" went on to say that all anyone ever looks for in a Yaris is the 1.0 petrol. Backed this up by showing me a 2nd hand Yaris diesel on another dealers stock list which he claimed had been there for almost a year.

Personally I think this will change under the new tax rules, but in the face of such propaganda there was no way I was going to buy a Yaris Diesel!

dulchie75

I have a 1.4tdi sport cordoba, it's brill, a tank of diesel gets me over 1000km, can't beat it. I would love a Ford focus but think I'll stick with what I have can't complain at all....:)

E92

Do-more wrote: »

I enquired about a new Yaris Diesel for the wife about two months back and the salesman said, "no problem but I'm warning you now, don't expect to get a good price for it when you come back to trade it in" went on to say that all anyone ever looks for in a Yaris is the 1.0 petrol. Backed this up by showing me a 2nd hand Yaris diesel on another dealers stock list which he claimed had been there for almost a year.

Personally I think this will change under the new tax rules, but in the face of such propaganda there was no way I was going to buy a Yaris Diesel!

Don't believe everything you're told - the Yaris diesel is very expensive compared to the competition(and the usual favourite - the 1.0) (though it is a *lot* more powerful than most of its rivals including the 1.0 petrol, which makes a bit of a difference) and is only available in bog spec Terra(ble) trim, not a good combination really lets be honest.

The changes in VRT were substantial, most people still have the old engine size mentality, it'll take time to bed in, but as more and more cars come available under the new CO2 system into the used car market, ever increasing pressures on CO2, the recent 8 cent a litre hike in petrol blah blah blah, the current scenario will change, no doubt about it and I genuinely believe that the combination of diesel, Toyota and Yaris would mean that it would get a great trade in value come resale time, maybe not now, but give it time and it certainly will.

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

Don't believe everything you're told - the Yaris diesel is very expensive compared to the competition(and the usual favourite - the 1.0) (though it is a *lot* more powerful than most of its rivals including the 1.0 petrol, which makes a bit of a difference) and is only available in bog spec Terra(ble) trim, not a good combination really lets be honest.

The changes in VRT were substantial, most people still have the old engine size mentality, it'll take time to bed in, but as more and more cars come available under the new CO2 system into the used car market, ever increasing pressures on CO2, the recent 8 cent a litre hike in petrol blah blah blah, the current scenario will change, no doubt about it and I genuinely believe that the combination of diesel, Toyota and Yaris would mean that it would get a great trade in value come resale time, maybe not now, but give it time and it certainly will.

That's why the trade in would be dire....the Terra isn't a great seller from what I see on the roads, and them that are out there are mainly rentals.

E92

ninty9er wrote: »

That's why the trade in would be dire....the Terra isn't a great seller from what I see on the roads, and them that are out there are mainly rentals.

That's all true as well, and with the secondhand market the way it is, buyers can well afford to be choosy, and at last higher spec(though not higher engine:() models are becoming more desirable to the point that the bottom of the range model is now considered difficult to sell. Focus Zetecs are worth more than LX/Styles, Citroen expects the best selling C5 to be the one with climate control, alloys, rain sensors etc, now that *never* happened before when the lowest spec model was almost universally considered the most desirable version here, so this is obviously a change that is most welcome.

E92

More details on Fiesta pricing:

Entry level 1.25 Style 3 door starts at €15,395.

5 doors go for €600 more.

1.4 TDCi is €1,000 more than the 1.25.

The 1.25 has 81 bhp to the 1.4 TDCi's 67 bhp. We are *not* getting the 1.25 with just 59 bhp found elsewhere in Europe, including even the UK:eek::)!

Titanium is €1,000 more than Style models, and is 5 door only.

The 1.4 petrol is auto only and costs €2,605 over the 1.25 81 bhp(or €1,605 over the 1.4 TDCi 67 bhp).

Automatics are only available on Style models.

The 1.6 Zetec S with 118 bhp costs a very reasonable €17,295.

You can configure your new Fiesta on Ford's revamped website.

maidhc

E92 wrote: »

That's all true as well, and with the secondhand market the way it is, buyers can well afford to be choosy, and at last higher spec(though not higher engine:() models are becoming more desirable to the point that the bottom of the range model is now considered difficult to sell. Focus Zetecs are worth more than LX/Styles, Citroen expects the best selling C5 to be the one with climate control, alloys, rain sensors etc, now that *never* happened before when the lowest spec model was almost universally considered the most desirable version here, so this is obviously a change that is most welcome.

Maybe, but if you are buying a car to sell it on (which I would never condone), you will still never get your money back on a higher specced car. It might take longer to shift, but I can't see a Terra spec being a deal breaker for too many Yaris drivers.*

*it is a fecking yaris, what did ya expect...

Lumen

Bit late to this thread but...

I have a petrol Suzuki Swift and a diesel Honda FRV.

They are very different cars, but although the Honda is a good car, I'd always drive the Swift given the choice.

The great thing about small cars is their sense of chuckability and responsiveness. It's not that I drive recklessly, but at safe speeds the Swift is just more fun. I think this sense of fun would be lost with a diesel. You never get the same throttle response as you do on a normally aspirated petrol (due to the turbocharging).

Of course, the diesel/petrol choice works out differently for different models. I test drove the 1.7 petrol version of my Honda, and it was utterly gutless and undergeared. At that time it was the only model on offer in ROI, so I imported the 2.2 diesel from the UK.

The way I'd view the choice is that by buying a small car, you're enabling yourself to "pick petrol" without a massive financial hit.

If economy is your biggest priority, you shouldn't really be buying new anyway.

Kazbah

I think the Fiestas should be in the showrooms on 1 Nov. I am still annoyed I cannot get an Econetic. I am reconsidering a 09 as there is great value in used cars at the moment. I would have bought the Econetic but I could get a 1.4 TDCI in maybe 06/07 for a good price.