Christians insisting that I'm a Satanist

Weidii

Before you read further; this thread is purely to complain, I'm not trying to cause any arguments and I'm not stereotyping. Just b*tching

I was talking to a group of friends today (note: we had just come out of a science lecture) and the subject of religion came -casually- up.

Basically one of my friends said to me (and believes) that if you don't believe in God you're a satanist. I asked him what made him think I'd believe that there was such a thing as an "evil" God since I don't follow the good one, to which he stated again, "If you don't believe in God you're definately a satanist... or a pagan"

It was one of those times when I had to laugh and walk away or end up in a state of sheer frustration and probably an argument.

Thinking back, I recall my Granny calling me a pagan when I was a teen because I didn't want to go to mass.


My first problem: What the heck is with the association that christians seem to make between satanism and paganism?

My second problem: What the heck is with the association that he made between atheism and satanism?

Are they taught this in mass or something? Does it say somewhere in the bible that athiests actually secretly worship their Gods arch nemesis?

Jumpy

Back in the wee days of history, the christians made out the pagans to be followers of Satan. That is how the pentagram was made out to be his symbol even though it actually belonged to the pagans.
Cant source this at the moment, but thats what I remember.

Dades

Just because you don't believe in Satan doesn't mean he doesn't believe in you.

(BTW, If this becomes a "Christians are stupid" thread it will be quietly closed).

Fanny Cradock

I can't condone what the person said, but do Christians (plural) insist that you are a Satanist, or was it simply a Christian (singular)? If it's the latter then your title is misleading.

I would assume the Satanic association with paganism arises because paganism and the occult are often though of as hand in glove. As for the atheism being association with Satanism, I've never heard of such a thing until this post. At a guess, I would think that they are taking a broad view that rejection of God ultimately comes from Satan... or some such.

Tim Robbins

Sounds headrecking. Very headrecking. Politely point out his mistakes or else do not enage in such conversations ever again.

ChocolateSauce

I have to say that thankfully most Christians don't assume atheists are satanists. The only one that ever accused me of it is CDfm :pac: But I think that can be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm sure that some fundies do of course think this, but coming from people who don't think, what do you expect?

Fanny Cradock

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

but coming from people who don't think, what do you expect?

*Yawn*

Rev Hellfire

If you keep insisting on playing led zeppelin songs backwards people will keep making this mistake...

Dades

Just read this post over next door!

ChocolateSauce

Dades wrote: »

Just read this post over next door!

Haha...fit for His seed.

Mena

I had this for the last 4 years of my school career. Even had teachers calling me a satanist. Was a blast once I got over it and started toying with them

Zillah

Basicallly people are inherently wicked due to original sin, and Satan is always looking for a way to control you. Worshipping God is the only way to ensure you remain free of his influence.

Basically they're saying that you're travelling to Africa without getting your shots.

Christians are stupid...

Galvasean

I wouldnt mind it OP, if some people want to be completely ignorant of teh world around them, thats up to them.

Dades

Don't make me send you to the naughty step, Zillah.

Hivemind187

Why are they always picking on the satanists huh?

... I dont see any references to cities put to the sword, daughters raped by bellowing crowds, women turned into table condiments or directives to ignore the basic instincts in life from the humble Satanist.

*my house parties don't count

all the stars

Weidii wrote: »

Before you read further; this thread is purely to complain, I'm not trying to cause any arguments and I'm not stereotyping. Just b*tching

well, what would the call a muslim? jew? buddist? or is it just specicifally atheists & pagans who are classed as satanists ?

if they say "if you dont believe in God you a satanist" then that person is kinda silly. . they must live in a small world with not much happening ...

studiorat

Satanists believe in god.

Hivemind187

studiorat wrote: »

Satanists believe in god.

No. They don't.

You mean a Satan "worpshiper" or "devil worshiper".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

There are theistic Satanists but it's a little more complex than that.

studiorat

I think in the context of the OP, it's correct.

I doubt if the OP's friends are au fait with the philosophies and customs of the modern pagan.

robindch

Weidii wrote: »

Basically one of my friends said to me (and believes) that if you don't believe in God you're a satanist.

I'd fire back that he's the one believing in an evil god -- the Old Testament raping and pillaging and all of that. Since you don't believe that this god exists, you can conclude to your friend that he's the satanist and you're not.

Then retire to a safe distance.

Galvasean

Poor aul Satan gets a bad rep. How many people did he kill in the Bible? One? Even that one is dubious. How many did God...?

jim o doom

I would definitely agree with one previous posters assertation, I don't believe Christians are stupid myself, I have the opinion that all organised religion is a load of my bum!
that part I agree with, is that whilst being non-religious, if someone of any religion, be they christian or otherwise, decides to call you a satanist or evil or whatever, this person is so into their own headfook way of thinking that you might as well just play along for a little fun and profess to be an actual "honest to god" satanist and see how they react to that - that sort of thing can be quite fun; professing unrealistic and outlandish views which will probably be taken at face value by whomever you are taunting
it helps remove any anger you have towards someone for thinking/behaving towards you in what I regard as a bizarre fashion, and is also fun to boot

ChocolateSauce

He does indeed get a bad rep. Like when he tempted Eve? He was just trying to get her to think logically.

Actually, when I first read that passage of the bible, I thought "Hey, this is metaphor for an atheist telling someone to use reason."

Maybe there is some truth to the assertation that atheists have something to do with Satan? Maybe he's modelled on us?

aidan24326

Weidii wrote: »

Before you read further; this thread is purely to complain, I'm not trying to cause any arguments and I'm not stereotyping. Just b*tching

I was talking to a group of friends today (note: we had just come out of a science lecture) and the subject of religion came -casually- up.

Basically one of my friends said to me (and believes) that if you don't believe in God you're a satanist. I asked him what made him think I'd believe that there was such a thing as an "evil" God since I don't follow the good one, to which he stated again, "If you don't believe in God you're definately a satanist... or a pagan"

It was one of those times when I had to laugh and walk away or end up in a state of sheer frustration and probably an argument.

Thinking back, I recall my Granny calling me a pagan when I was a teen because I didn't want to go to mass.


My first problem: What the heck is with the association that christians seem to make between satanism and paganism?

My second problem: What the heck is with the association that he made between atheism and satanism?

Are they taught this in mass or something? Does it say somewhere in the bible that athiests actually secretly worship their Gods arch nemesis?

To be fair this is just one christian, and he sounds like a bit of an idiot in all honesty, so I wouldn't pay too much heed. And paganism is widely misunderstood anyway.

Galvasean wrote: »

Poor aul Satan gets a bad rep. How many people did he kill in the Bible? One? Even that one is dubious. How many did God...?

I would definitely point that out alright. Satan for all his alleged evilness didn't actually do a whole lot wrong, whereas if the god of the bible were around today he'd be dragged before the international criminal court on charges of mass murder and crimes against humanity, amongst other things!

eoin5

Galvasean wrote: »

Poor aul Satan gets a bad rep. How many people did he kill in the Bible? One? Even that one is dubious. How many did God...?

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/funny-graphs-god-v-satan.jpg

Hivemind187

studiorat wrote: »

I think in the context of the OP, it's correct.

I doubt if the OP's friends are au fait with the philosophies and customs of the modern pagan.

Satanists are not pagans. They are, by definition, atheists.

In that sense, the vast majority of people would actually fall foul of the charge "atheists are satanists" (going on the kind of twisted logic behind most religious thought anyway).

aidan24326

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Satanists are not pagans. They are, by definition, atheists.

Are they? But what about if they believe satan to be the real god?

I'm not sure exactly what satanists do believe to be honest, or what's the point of it.

PDN

I have never met anyone who was a Christian by conviction (as opposed to a cultural Catholic who knows little or nothing about religion or atheism) who would equate atheists with Satanists.

I would question whether the OP really heard or understood what this 'Christian' was saying. Did they actually call the OP a 'Satanist'? Or did they say he/she was a child of Satan, or controlled by Satan, or some other similar phrase?

The reason I ask this is that most Christians believe that in the ordinary course of events Satan has a controlling influence over all human beings. Indeed, according to the Christian Gospel, the only way to be free from such control is to become a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I realise this will probably be more offensive to some of you to be called a puppet of Satan than to be called a worshipper of Satan - but then again, why get overly worried about what stupid Christians believe?

Dades

I for one would prefer to be a "Puppet of Satan" rather than a Satanist.

There's an air of blissful ignorance about the former.

Hivemind187

aidan24326 wrote: »

Are they? But what about if they believe satan to be the real god?

I'm not sure exactly what satanists do believe to be honest, or what's the point of it.

Again, fairly large difference between a "satanist" and a "Satan Worshipper".

Satanist - follower of a particular philosophy espousing atheism, self indulgence and a revolt against most superstitions.

Satan Worshipper - Someone who actively believes in a demonic or celestial embodiment of evil.

This is a massive over-simplification but I feel that a line between these two should be drawn.

aidan24326

PDN wrote: »

I realise this will probably be more offensive to some of you to be called a puppet of Satan than to be called a worshipper of Satan - but then again, why get overly worried about what stupid Christians believe?

Offensive? Nah not really. Personally I'd find it hard to be offended by something I consider to be a load of made-up nonsense.

Soul Winner

In a sense the Christian in the OP is correct but wrong for expressing it. Jesus said don’t judge others because you yourself will be judged as you have judged, so if you want to be a Christian, which is someone who follows Jesus, then you must do what He says and this is one of those things.

He also said that those who do not gather with Him, scatter. That means that with God there is no neutral gear. If God and Satan exist, then it follows that if you are not under God's control then you are under Satan's control. Why? Because Jesus calls Him the ruler of the kingdoms of this world, the Apostle Paul calls him “The Prince of the power of the air” and as such he is pretty much in control of things down here. Although invisible to human sensory apparatus Satan can still be discerned in this world. You need only to try and do something for God to find how much in the grip of Satan the world really is. I am not saying try and do something good as you would define it, I’m saying try doing something that you believe God would have you do (even if you don’t believe in him) and see how far you get. Take praying for instance. Even those who are frequent prayers will admit that it is not something that one does by instinct. It is wrestled with and fought over every time you decide to do it. That is the kind of power we are talking about here. Not a fiery red, cloven hoofed, pitch fork holding hybrid of nature. I’m talking about a power that “GRIPS” the world. Now atheists don’t believe in either God or Satan but this does nothing to alter whether or not they truly exist. If they do exist then their existence is not predicated on whether people believe in them or not. It’s either true or it isn’t. Atheists will point to the natural world and make the case that these things do not exist in nature. And yes that is true they don’t exist in nature, if they are real at all then they are both outside of what we call nature, but being outside of nature does not mean that they cannot influence nature.

So he is right that that the OP is a Satanists because if Satan exists then everyone is a Satanist if we define the term ‘Satanist’ as someone who is simply in the grip of a force that they cannot comprehend called Satan.


Now on the issue of God being more of a murderer than Satan. Like above, if we conclude or assume that God does truly exist and that He is the Giver of all life then it follows that as the Giver of all life, that He has the right to take it away again. And if that is the case then it can also be deduced that it is He who has killed everybody that has ever died. That does not make Him more of a murderer than Satan though. In fact if the life giving attribute can be attributed to God then He cannot murder by definition. He can only take what is rightfully His to begin with back to Himself. Satan however (if it assumed exists) is a created being. He has no right to take life unless He is commanded by God to do so. Satan assuming he exists was the first rebel. He rebelled against God in heaven. He decided that it will be he who will be top dog there and for which he was cast out. Now it is his business to thwart God’s purposes here on earth. If God exists then He has a plan for His creation that Satan wants to destroy. He (Satan) has no other goals. Just make sure God’s purposes are not done. And you need only look at the news today to see this destruction in many of its forms. Now you might argue that it is humans who are doing all this and in a sense you are right but if Satan exists and I believe He does then it becomes apparent that the darkness in this world is caused by him and yes he uses and has used religion many times to achieve this. He always comes as an angel of light. He will never come and say ‘follow me’ he’ll simply suggest to your heart that following God is bad, or non beneficial and will lead to eternal slavery and so on. He will tell you to do your own thing. Look after yourself, you don’t need God. Well that is only true if God doesn’t exist, but if He does exist then what lies these are for the destruction of the soul. All life needs the giver of life to sustain it, even if you don’t believe it exists. I breathed oxygen for years before I understood what oxygen was and why and how much I need it to survive. My previous ignorance of my needing of oxygen did not negate my need of it nor did it stop my intake of it. Same with God, if He truly does exist then our ignorance of Him does not negate this fact and we need Him for everything.

Galvasean

Satan compels me to tell all the Christians to take a hike and get out of the A&A forum, GGGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:pac:

Dades

Good job Satan's not in charge around these parts.

Soul Winner

Galvasean wrote: »

Satan compels me to tell all the Christians to take a hike and get out of the A&A forum, GGGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:pac:

It's way too interesting in here. I'm staying

marco_polo

Dades wrote: »

Good job Satan's not in charge around these parts.

He is a CMOD. He like to leave the day to day drudgery of forum modding to his minions.

studiorat

Galvasean wrote: »

Satan compels me to tell all the Christians to take a hike and get out of the A&A forum, GGGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:pac:

devil worshipper

Overheal

Dades wrote: »

(BTW, If this becomes a "Christians are stupid" thread it will be quietly closed).

Theres nothing stupid about Christianity but there are a select few followers of any religion that seem to just get it wrong. I mean look at Bin Laden - he was a ripe old apple of islamic faith.

Mena

Overheal wrote: »

Theres nothing stupid about Christianity

At least that gave me my first Friday laugh.

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

Like above, if we conclude or assume that God does truly exist and that He is the Giver of all life then it follows that as the Giver of all life, that He has the right to take it away again.

No. This is a despicable sycophantic notion.

Satan assuming he exists was the first rebel. He rebelled against God in heaven. He decided that it will be he who will be top dog there and for which he was cast out.

Not really actually, everyone is very vague on why Satan rebelled. In some cases it was pride; he no longer wished to serve. In other cases it had to do with humanity and freewill. Mormons believe Satan rebelled because God chose Jesus to be the saviour of humanity over him.

I've always found the devil to be quite a wonderful character really. Rebelling against an all powerful entity, that takes moxy. Although in Paradise Lost Milton finds a clever way around this: Satan didn't know God was all powerful until after the war. Very clever that.

pH

Does anyone (who believes in God) believe that Satanists actually exist. Does Satan actually have followers on earth?

Is he a kind of mini bad-God, can he listen to their 'prayers', can he reward his followers on earth? Has he provided any literature through prophets to tell his followers how to behave and how to worship him?

It's also interesting that this seemingly quite powerful being is never blamed for natural disasters. Even Anglican bishops believe that God sends floods not the devil. He seemingly has superpowers to manipulate human minds into doing evil, yet can't interact with the rest of the physical universe.

Shapes

I wonder how many Christians would subscribe to The Conversations With God point of view that there is no Satan save for an imaginary character in mythology?

As a free thinking Christian (one who believes that the teachings of Jesus made perfect sense yet they need to be seen as teachings for a time OF the time of Jesus) I believe in the teaching of the Torah, which states that Jews should not make light of anothers religious or spiritual beliefs, as no-one can be so sure of there own beliefs in the face of no concrete proof to prove those beliefs true or false.

It has to be said that I see no reason for anyone to call you a satanist just because you don't believe in God. Total nonsense. Quantam mechanics is leading us more down the road of philosophy these days and you will find astrologists who believe there is a point where astrology and pure mathematics meet. If we were to add the mechanics and physics of astronomy to that mix and we seem to be getting somewhere closer to the truth.

Conversations With God also states that we are getting close to technology that could leads us into a wonderland of discovery about ourselves, the universe and all life but conversley warns that the same technology could be used to send us back to the heavens by blowing ourselves apart.

Revelations points to massive earthquakes, tsunamis and financial chaos before 'the end'. Prophesy of the obvious or a statement of intent? Christians would have you believe there will be a great war to end all wars but who's to say that the end doesn't come with knowledge and awareness leading to a dissipation of 'evil' (bad feeling towards each other)?

No one can say with any certainty that they are right beyond all doubt and anyone who says they can, is a liar. (So far !!:O))

studiorat

Satanist Forum needed!

Hivemind187

Zillah wrote: »

Not really actually, everyone is very vague on why Satan rebelled. In some cases it was pride; he no longer wished to serve. In other cases it had to do with humanity and freewill. Mormons believe Satan rebelled because God chose Jesus to be the saviour of humanity over him.

I've always found the devil to be quite a wonderful character really. Rebelling against an all powerful entity, that takes moxy. Although in Paradise Lost Milton finds a clever way around this: Satan didn't know God was all powerful until after the war. Very clever that.

I always thought the image of Satan as "the rebel" who got himself kicked out of heaven for the sin of pride was a poetic construct from the Milton poem Paradise lost and not actually part of the Bible.

Maybe I need to read the Bible closer (ha!).

Hivemind187

pH wrote: »

Does anyone (who believes in God) believe that Satanists actually exist. Does Satan actually have followers on earth?

Is he a kind of mini bad-God, can he listen to their 'prayers', can he reward his followers on earth? Has he provided any literature through prophets to tell his followers how to behave and how to worship him?

It's also interesting that this seemingly quite powerful being is never blamed for natural disasters. Even Anglican bishops believe that God sends floods not the devil. He seemingly has superpowers to manipulate human minds into doing evil, yet can't interact with the rest of the physical universe.

Actualyl thats an interesting question.

Most of the so-called "worshippers of Satan" are in actuallity involved in one kind of demonology (or deomanalatry) or another. From what I can find out there are very few (if any) sects which actively worship Lucifer (since he wasnt a demon to begin with but a greek muse or embodiment of light) prefering to worship one of the major Goetian demons (commonly) Belial, Leviathan, Baal or Beelzebub. Most of these names were hijacked from older deities or spirits by early monotheists and corrupted into the so-called demon archtypes we see being worshipped today.

It also appears that the majority of so-called worshippers have some very convoluted ideas of what these demons are supposed to be about and a peculiar penchant for judeo christian trappings and ritual systems. In other words, they seem to have even less idea of their own history etc than the average christian.

Hivemind187

studiorat wrote: »

Satanist Forum needed!

Requested.

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

No. This is a despicable sycophantic notion.

Well if it’s true then it doesn't really make any difference does it? In any case God is not a Sycophant. That defines somebody who attempts to win favor through flattery. God never does that, it's either live or die with God, you choose. To live you must put your faith in Him, to die you just put your faith in anything else. If He exists then this is the way He is and as an immutable being he changes not.

Zillah wrote: »

Not really actually, everyone is very vague on why Satan rebelled. In some cases it was pride; he no longer wished to serve. In other cases it had to do with humanity and freewill. Mormons believe Satan rebelled because God chose Jesus to be the saviour of humanity over him.

I doubt very much that Satan would be fighting with Jesus in the “who gets to go to Calvary” competition. As to why Satan was cast out? Here's how Isaiah puts it:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." Isaiah 14:12-15

Zillah wrote: »

I've always found the devil to be quite a wonderful character really. Rebelling against an all powerful entity, that takes moxy. Although in Paradise Lost Milton finds a clever way around this: Satan didn't know God was all powerful until after the war. Very clever that.

Well if Isaiah is correct then Satan did know that God was almighty because he calls Him the "Most High", so your first statement is right, that does take moxy all be it a tad foolish.

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well if it’s true then it doesn't really make any difference does it? In any case God is not a Sycophant. That defines somebody who attempts to win favor through flattery. God never does that, it's either live or die with God, you choose. To live you must put your faith in Him, to die you just put your faith in anything else. If He exists then this is the way He is and as an immutable being he changes not.

I was referring to you and your God-boot-licking associates.

I doubt very much that Satan would be fighting with Jesus in the “who gets to go to Calvary” competition.

So do I! There's all sorts of silly things I have doubts about. Doesn't change the fact that the Mormons still believe it.

Well if Isaiah is correct then Satan did know that God was almighty because he calls Him the "Most High", so your first statement is right, that does take moxy all be it a tad foolish.

Most High does not equal "Infinitely High". I can be the tallest person in my class without being infinitely tall.

Yeah Satan is awesome.

Zillah

Shapes wrote: »

Quantam mechanics is leading us more down the road of philosophy these days

No it isn't.

and you will find astrologists who believe there is a point where astrology and pure mathematics meet.

Why would anyone care what Astrologists think? They're experts in charlatanry, nothing more.

If we were to add the mechanics and physics of astronomy to that mix and we seem to be getting somewhere closer to the truth.

What mix? Add how? What truth? Is there anything to this other than wishy washy pseudo science?

No one can say with any certainty that they are right beyond all doubt and anyone who says they can, is a liar. (So far !!:O))

Since when do we require "beyond all doubt"? That's impossible and pointless. I'm going to be intellectually sloppy and say that I'll accept a 99.99% accuracy and say that every religious person on this planet is talking nonesense.

JimiTime

Zillah wrote: »

Yeah Satan is awesome.

So he's real then?

Shapes

Zillah wrote: »

No it isn't....

Try watching Elegant Universe



Why would anyone care what Astrologists think? They're experts in charlatanry, nothing more.

Prove it



What mix? Add how? What truth? Is there anything to this other than wishy washy pseudo science?

Mix of astrology, quantum mechanics and mathematics, read the post.



Since when do we require "beyond all doubt"? That's impossible and pointless. I'm going to be intellectually sloppy and say that I'll accept a 99.99% accuracy and say that every religious person on this planet is talking nonesense.

I never said it was required and the point I was making is that all religion is nonsense if it affirms itself to be right and everyone else wrong. It was also impossible to travel around the world in the past due to the 'reality' of falling off the edge of the world, impossible is only a matter of current understanding. If God or Satan were to appear, would it still be impossible?

I appreciate your