Abortion Thread crunchdown

Phototoxin

I would like to say that I think the Humaties mods were wrong to close the abortion thread. It was going well (for both sides) until one person decided not to say a lot and got the thread closed. I have pmed the moderator concerned and have recieved no reply. Similary an enquiry as to why it was closed was also just shut down. It seems that if the mods are 'pro-choice' then they dont like anyone disagreeing with them. Letting personal opinions and beliefs get in the way of moderating is highly unprofessional. The thread was civil until a mod caused an issue.

It actually seems like a conspiracy to close it. I would like it re-opend and if anyone causes problems that that persnon be dealt with rather than the discussion axed.

dr.bollocko

It's not worth it man. That thread was more circular than Pies are Squared

Dudess

Phototoxin wrote: »

I would like to say that I think the Humaties mods were wrong to close the abortion thread. It was going well (for both sides)

Are you for real? Rarely have I seen such OTT, emotive, extremist, agenda-pushing crap in my life...

until one person decided not to say a lot and got the thread closed.

Oh yes, someone else decided (via the avenue of personal abuse) to pin the blame on me for the thread being closed - my one post in a 30+ page thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055386343
If you and others think the locking of that thread was the result of one measly post (and the only post on the entire thread by its poster) then really... I don't know what to say to you.
One of the nuttier responses was reported which drew attention to the thread, I'm wagering that was the catalyst that led to its closure. I seriously doubt it was my comment and nothing else... but it's handy to have someone to blame it on.
I stay well away from the regular abortion threads, but one comment in particular on this occasion was so mindblowing I just had to respond to it. I admit one of my comments within the post in question was very "After Hours" in nature, but it's something I genuinely believe - I wasn't simply trying to be controversial.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57375649&postcount=462

Similary an enquiry as to why it was closed was also just shut down.

Of course it was closed down - it was in the wrong forum! I don't see how Humanities should serve the same purpose as Feedback or Helpdesk.

It seems that if the mods are 'pro-choice' then they dont like anyone disagreeing with them. Letting personal opinions and beliefs get in the way of moderating is highly unprofessional.

No, moderators don't make decisions based on beliefs that conflict with their own - that would indeed be very bad form. Moderators do however make decisions based on irrational, hysterical comments - comments of the "you will agree with me or I'll keep posting up horrible pictures/my point in scary red letters" variety, rather than mature, rational debate.

I know of a tiny few pro-lifers who are capable of holding reasonable, well-informed discussions on the issue, but unfortunately most pro-lifers seem to live up to the cliché.

You're gonna have to accept that there are some people who, while they don't think abortion is the ideal, they can see how it's necessary under certain circumstances. If you accept that and make your arguments accordingly, I'm very confident there will be far less abortion thread crunchdowns...

stovelid

There is another abortion thread open in humanities. Why not just join that one? Then:

(1) That thread will reach 50 pages and get shut down because of circularity issues.

(2) Ultravid will start another thread to pimp a pro-life site discuss abortion.

(3) See (1) and (2) ad infinitum.

Nevyn

Phototoxin wrote: »

I would like to say that I think the Humaties mods were wrong to close the abortion thread. It was going well (for both sides) until one person decided not to say a lot and got the thread closed.

Fair enough, but the mod did issue a warning to keep the thread civil which is in their remit to do so.

Phototoxin wrote: »

I have pmed the moderator concerned and have recieved no reply.

Mods have lives and are not online 24/7 it may take them a while to get back to you.

Phototoxin wrote: »

Similary an enquiry as to why it was closed was also just shut down.

That thread was in the wrong place and the first post contained personal abuse the poster was lucky not to be banned imho.

Phototoxin wrote: »

It seems that if the mods are 'pro-choice' then they dont like anyone disagreeing with them.

PLease link to where any of the humanities mods have said they are prolife,
please link to where they have abused thier mod powers on this topic.

Phototoxin wrote: »

Letting personal opinions and beliefs get in the way of moderating is highly unprofessional.

Mods are volenterrs and are not paid.

Phototoxin wrote: »

The thread was civil until a mod caused an issue.

That person does not mod humanities and so is to be treated as a poster in the forums they do not mod, if you had am issue with thier post did you report it ?

Phototoxin wrote: »

It actually seems like a conspiracy to close it.

I think that is bit far fetched and you will find that there are always debates on abortion going on in humanities it crops up there regularly, so much so I am surprised the mods from that forum haven't created a huge mega merge thread of them from the last 10 years.

Phototoxin wrote: »

I would like it re-opend and if anyone causes problems that that persnon be dealt with rather than the discussion axed.

You know you just made that a lot harder to do and have happen with all your stuff about abuse of mod powers, bias and talk of conspiracy.

I am boggled why you had to include that stuff with your request.

Maximilian

Considering the emotive topic and the fact that the OP clearly has an agenda, it is completely inevitable that the thread would be closed. The only question was when.

Anyway, I guess humanities is the place to go for a good argument these days.

Hagar

Dudess wrote: »

You're gonna have to accept that there are some people who, while they don't think abortion is the ideal, they can see how it's necessary under certain circumstances. If you accept that and make your arguments accordingly, I'm very confident there will be far less abortion thread crunchdowns...

So the pro-life posters must accept in advance that abortion is ok in certain circumstances before they can debate abortion as a broad topic?

They must accept that their views are subject to limitations imposed by the opposing debaters before they even start?

If that's the way the moderation of abortion debates is going to go we should just ban all debate now as pointless.

Dudess

Hagar wrote: »

So the pro-life posters must accept in advance that abortion is ok in certain circumstances before they can debate abortion as a broad topic?

They must accept that their views are subject to limitations imposed by the opposing debaters before they even start?

If that's the way the moderation of abortion debates is going to go we should just ban all debate now as pointless.

Nobody "must" accept anything and you've missed my point, which is, if pro-lifers accept there's a very high possibility they are gonna be unable to change members of the pro-choice/pro-abortion lobbies' minds (even with nasty pictures) and that they are entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong in the eyes of the pro-life lobby, then debate might perhaps be more reasonable.

Hagar

TBH it's not ever going to be easy to be reasonable.

It's a tremendously visceral topic.

Both sides cannot be right and neither can ever accept that they might be wrong.

For harmony I think the topic should be blacklisted.
It is far more trouble than it is worth.

Nerin

Lol conspiracy. I kinda agree with hagar here,blacklist abortion for a while,at least. Let it be opened every few months,if they can't play nice,axe it again for another few months.

Maximilian

Nerin wrote: »

Lol conspiracy. I kinda agree with hagar here,blacklist abortion for a while,at least. Let it be opened every few months,if they can't play nice,axe it again for another few months.

I think Hagar is right. It's an issue that will never, ever be resolved by discussion. Anyway, I'm glad I never got a chance to impart my views on recreational abortion.

Nerin

Its gone the way of the evolution vs creationism threads

Dades

There's still an abortion thread lingering in A&A.*

* Not for long now I've invited the crackpots

Maximilian

Nerin wrote: »

Its gone the way of the evolution vs creationism threads

And the ****ers still won't accept that fossils were put there to test our faith, the monkey-loving bastards.

Nevyn

Maximilian wrote: »

recreational abortion.

They have to be one of the most obsene pairing of two words I have seen in a long time.

The thing is the topic usually comes up and then dies of,
what is different this time is what appears to be people regging to the site
solely to start threads on this topic.

Maximilian

Thaedydal wrote: »

They have to be one of the most obsene pairing of two words I have seen in a long time.

I have a way with words; am evil.

Nerin

Thaedydal wrote: »

They have to be one of the most obsene pairing of two words I have seen in a long time.

The thing is the topic usually comes up and then dies of,
what is different this time is what appears to be people regging to the site
solely to start threads on this topic.

you noticed that too? Yeah,its like they were invited to come start this crap. Also-are used and moist still gross words when put together?

Hagar

I suspect that they were regular posters who wanted to post anonymously rather than blow-ins just regging for the one thread.

DublinWriter

Maximilian wrote: »

And the ****ers still won't accept that fossils were put there to test our faith, the monkey-loving bastards.

Well gee-thanks. I'd consider myself to be a Prolifer and I'm a Buddhist and therefore an atheist.

Even if you made that comment with toungue-in-cheek, I'd really expect more from you considering the responsibility which you are charged with and the inflammatory nature of the argument.

At this jaded point in the game, I really think boards ltd should review the way in which it enforces it's own rules. The charters are an excellent idea, but the arbitrary way in which they are enforced leaves room for much improvement.

Dave!

DublinWriter wrote: »

Well gee-thanks. I'd consider myself to be a Prolifer and I'm a Buddhist and therefore an atheist.

Even if you made that comment with toungue-in-cheek, I'd really expect more from you considering the responsibility which you are charged with and the inflammatory nature of the argument.

lol

Dades

Dave! wrote: »

lol

I'm confused...

MagicMarker

It's probably time to start banning abortion threads in general as they all end up the same and it's been done to death... pun intended.

Mr. Presentable

MagicMarker wrote: »

done to death... pun intended.

and therein lies the rub.............

Jack Sheehan

Thaedydal wrote: »

They have to be one of the most obsene pairing of two words I have seen in a long time.

The thing is the topic usually comes up and then dies of,
what is different this time is what appears to be people regging to the site
solely to start threads on this topic.

Christ almighty, glad I missed that thread.

Maximilian

DublinWriter wrote: »

Well gee-thanks. I'd consider myself to be a Prolifer and I'm a Buddhist and therefore an atheist.

Even if you made that comment with toungue-in-cheek, I'd really expect more from you considering the responsibility which you are charged with and the inflammatory nature of the argument.

At this jaded point in the game, I really think boards ltd should review the way in which it enforces it's own rules. The charters are an excellent idea, but the arbitrary way in which they are enforced leaves room for much improvement.

What are you on about? Tongue was surely beyond protruding from my cheek. Was there a point? Perhaps I'm too drunk.

Orion

Hagar wrote: »

For harmony I think the topic should be blacklisted.
It is far more trouble than it is worth.

I understand where you're coming from but where do you draw the line if you start blacklisting topics just because they're emotive? Politics can be just as emotional, as can divorce, religion, animal husbandry etc (ok that last one was a joke).

Personally I would love if Ultravids sigbe banned and that him/her/it with it. But that would take away his/her/its right to an opinion and to express it (leave out the boards is a private site arguments here - that's not my point).

Just because a topic is emotive is not a reason to ban it. But emotive threads like that do need a higher level of moderation to keep them on track. Logical posts are fine - not that logic will change anyone's mind once it's made up - but crap posts like Dudess's last one on the locked thread should just be deleted rather than cause a thread to be locked imo.

tallaght01

Hi guys.

I was quite heavily involved in this (these) threads in the early stages. I stopped posting because I thought there was quite a high level of mentalness on both sides. I found the argument tiring and a bit circular. I also found the pages of debate about side issues were taking away from the central issue. And I found the lack of scientific knowledge on both sides meant that the debate was sometimes ill informed.

BUT, the debate was interesting. There were a few people who got quite involved, and they seemed to have been enjoying posting. Things sometimes got a bit frayed. But that's going to happen sometimes. Most of us are adults,and we should be able to cope with that. I've had this debate with some of my closest friends before, and it still got heated. Sometimes on boards, when topics get heated, we close threads or warn people. But sometimes it's OK to just leave it. I think it was OK to just leave it in this case.

Just because the argument didn't appeal to me any more doesn't mean I think it should be closed.

I think closing a thread on a discussion site should be an absoloute last resort. I don't think there's anything in this thread that really crossed the line of there being no option other than to close it. Particularly in view of the fact that there had been very little moderation previous to that.

Re-open the thread. Let adults debate. Let things get a little heated. Don't ban all threads on abortion. Allow the debate to continue. People will get bored, and you won't hear a thing about it for months.

If things had been left alone in the first place, it would have all petered out on it's own.

Asiaprod

Dades wrote: »

* Not for long now I've invited the crackpots

You can Mod that one, I gave up on that subject a long time ago. Its way to volatile. I'll continue with the hunting for fossils and educating apes group. Not that I expect to win.

Dudess

Macros42 wrote: »

crap posts like Dudess's last one on the locked thread should just be deleted rather than cause a thread to be locked imo.

I'm assuming my comment (which really wasn't that controversial, come on!) was just the last straw for zenith and thus (s)he closed the thread. It was hardly the sole reason for the thread closure. No, I think the craziness that preceded would have been slightly more instrumental.
Looney comments from elements of the pro-life lobby, and sneering, smug comments from elements of the self-satisfied, "enlightened" pro-choice/pro-abortion lobby is a regular feature of abortion threads so I usually stay the hell away.
You'll find members of one lobby flying into a rage about personal abuse against one of their supporters but ignoring personal abuse of their opposers. eveie started a personally abusive thread directed at me about my comment, but the thing is, if I was pro-life and made a comment of a similar style, she'd be my best friend... not that I've explicitly stated my position on abortion in the recent threads.

It's absolutely farcical. I agree with Hagar - sure, many other topics are emotive but none of them bring out childishness like abortion.

Phototoxin

I stay well away from the regular abortion threads, but one comment in particular on this occasion was so mindblowing I just had to respond to it. I admit one of my comments within the post in question was very "After Hours" in nature, but it's something I genuinely believe - I wasn't simply trying to be controversial.

exactly, so why shut the thread down ? why not just have a quiet pm wiht you, then again it seems that PMs aren't zenits strong point.

Considering the emotive topic and the fact that the OP clearly has an agenda, it is completely inevitable that the thread would be closed. The only question was when.

most people have an 'agenda' , often its expressed in what is called an 'opinion'

Lol conspiracy. I kinda agree with hagar here,blacklist abortion for a while,at least. Let it be opened every few months,if they can't play nice,axe it again for another few months.

why though ? the topic isn't the cause its the people posting on it.

The thing is the topic usually comes up and then dies of,
what is different this time is what appears to be people regging to the site
solely to start threads on this topic.

is that not thier perogative ? I originally registered to use the photography section before 'expanding.'

I understand where you're coming from but where do you draw the line if you start blacklisting topics just because they're emotive? Politics can be just as emotional, as can divorce, religion, animal husbandry etc (ok that last one was a joke).

Personally I would love if Ultravids sigbe banned and that him/her/it with it. But that would take away his/her/its right to an opinion and to express it (leave out the boards is a private site arguments here - that's not my point).

Just because a topic is emotive is not a reason to ban it. But emotive threads like that do need a higher level of moderation to keep them on track. Logical posts are fine - not that logic will change anyone's mind once it's made up - but crap posts like Dudess's last one on the locked thread should just be deleted rather than cause a thread to be locked imo.

+1

I'm assuming my comment (which really wasn't that controversial, come on!) was just the last straw for zenith and thus (s)he closed the thread. It was hardly the sole reason for the thread closure. No, I think the craziness that preceded would have been slightly more instrumental

it was an excuse for it as zenith expressed his opinion early on that he was for abortion, though that said I think he should just stop psycho posts (not that I personally think dudesses post WAS psycho) rather than axing a a debate which when it is resurected will just have to go through the same 25 pages of arguments before the jucy stuff happens.

Orion

Dudess wrote: »

I'm assuming my comment (which really wasn't that controversial, come on!) was just the last straw for zenith and thus (s)he closed the thread. It was hardly the sole reason for the thread closure. No, I think the craziness that preceded would have been slightly more instrumental.

I didn't mean it was controversial - just that it didn't add to the discussion. And it probably was the last straw for zenith but imo (s)he should have just deleted your post and let the discussion continue. That's what I meant by emotive topics being moderated at a higher level.

Popinjay

Macros42 wrote: »

(s)he should have just deleted your post and let the discussion continue.

I dunno.

I didn't post in the thread but I read it start to finish. I'll agree that Dudess' comment was well below the mark of what I consider personal abuse and I'll agree with her that it was more of a straw that broke the camel's back issue than a big problem with her post in specific. But the last Mod post in that thread made it pretty clear that anything of that sort would get the thread closed.

I agree, a delete would have been a better option were it not for this post which made it pretty clear that patience was running thin with many attitudes in the debate.

I don't think there ever should be any block on the subject because free-speech aside, this site was set up and developed (I assume) with the ideas of encouraging discussion on anything anyone might want to talk about. But I can see it getting that way looking at any other thread on abortion - it always seems to get... well, not quite personal... but heated doesn't seem to cover it.

Orion

Dudess' post didn't have personal abuse in it. It didn't contribute to the discussion but wasn't abusive at all imo.

zenith's post was pretty useless tbh - in a thread about abortion you will always get point for point rebuttals. It's a very very emotive topic. But rebuttals are inevitable. Every post is going to attempt to rebut other arguments whether on purpose or not - that's the central core of any debate.

That said - I do believe that threads about abortion are pointless for the posters in them. zenith is absolutely correct that there are people who will never even consider agreeing with the opposing side's opinions. But let the children at it anyway - threads like that are always for the undecideds to read the dogmatic opinions of the converted and then make their own decisions

[edit]I just want to throw in that I don't believe in the OP's assertion that the lock was related to zenith's own opinions. I think that the thread was allowed go to extremes at some stages. I have no idea where zenith's own morality lies and he/she didn't seem to allow it to influence the decision to lock. I don't agree with the lock but I do not believe it was morally motivated.

Phototoxin

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383586&page=18

Now that one is closed.. no reason given and no reason for closing..

So much for free speech.

Nerin

Its a conspiracy. Boards is run by liberal heathens.

Nevyn

Hagar wrote: »

I suspect that they were regular posters who wanted to post anonymously rather than blow-ins just regging for the one thread.

Why ?

Phototoxin wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383586&page=18

Now that one is closed.. no reason given and no reason for closing..

So much for free speech.

There is not provision for free speech in this country and certainly not on private websites.

When the thread was locked the mod said it was due to reported posts.

K-9

Phototoxin wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383586&page=18

Now that one is closed.. no reason given and no reason for closing..

So much for free speech.

And free thought too!

Phototoxin

There is not provision for free speech in this country and certainly not on private websites.

When the thread was locked the mod said it was due to reported posts.

then why not punish the members who posted rather than delete the whole thread?

Hagar

Thaedydal wrote: »

Why ?

I'm not so sure that on a site this size that so many new posters suddenly found that particular thread and were motivated enough to go through the whole regging process just to post once or twice. Unless of course there's a conspiracy and it was rent-a-crowd. I'm more inclined to think that some established posters wanted to have their say without revealing themselves to people who might know them IRL.

It's just my guess, I could be wrong though.

Otacon

Hagar wrote: »

I'm more inclined to think that some established posters wanted to have their say without revealing themselves to people who might know them IRL.

Are they embarassed by their views then?

Nerin

Phototoxin wrote: »

then why not punish the members who posted rather than delete the whole thread?

its locked,not deleted. People can still read the arguements. Maybe whoever locked it might come here and say why they locked it. Its a privately owned website. Everyone is like a guest in the admins house. The mods voluntarily help the site,clean it up and keep the peace. They don't have a 'duty' or whatever.

Hagar

Octacon wrote:

Are they embarassed by their views then?

What are you asking me for? How would I know?
I just put forward an idea, I never said it was gospel.

CDfm

Im fairly Anti Abortion -but here the Mods are right.

And I am ahem a tad opinionated from time to time.

If posters want to sabotage a thread they can and thats disrespectful to everybody else.

Even in the heat of the moment-you can always go in and edit your stuff out.You can even ask a mod for help to remove stuff.You can even apologise to others on threads. But when a thread is closed you cant do anything.

Im a Newby and some posters dont care if they wreck a good thread.

Ive had some of my views changed by some very good posts on the subject on the other now closed down threads.

I also have seen some wonderful stuff posted explaining complex theological,philosophical, moral and biological data that otherwise would have been beyond my comprehension.

So sorry to see it go but it was OTT.

K-9

CDfm wrote: »

Im fairly Anti Abortion -but here the Mods are right.

And I am ahem a tad opinionated from time to time.

If posters want to sabotage a thread they can and thats disrespectful to everybody else.

Even in the heat of the moment-you can always go in and edit your stuff out.You can even ask a mod for help to remove stuff.You can even apologise to others on threads. But when a thread is closed you cant do anything.

Im a Newby and some posters dont care if they wreck a good thread.

Ive had some of my views changed by some very good posts on the subject on the other now closed down threads.

I also have seen some wonderful stuff posted explaining complex theological,philosophical, moral and biological data that otherwise would have been beyond my comprehension.

So sorry to see it go but it was OTT.

Agreed, which is why simple, basic questions are good on a thread like that.

Unfortunately I joined late and that seemed to go against the norm on the thread!

Unfortunately if either side has an absolute view, there is no room for debate!

When it gets to the stage that nobody thinks about a question, just quotes the party line, it isn't a debate anymore.

Btw, I believe this applies to both extremes of the thread!

CDfm

Seanies32 wrote: »

Agreed, which is why simple, basic questions are good on a thread like that.

Unfortunately I joined late and that seemed to go against the norm on the thread!

Unfortunately if either side has an absolute view, there is no room for debate!

When it gets to the stage that nobody thinks about a question, just quotes the party line, it isn't a debate anymore.

Btw, I believe this applies to both extremes of the thread!

Yep - the party line stuff goes round and round if I wanted that Id go to a rally.

But Seanies some of these wans in Dublin have really extreme views heres something I found on the internet

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/BitingBeaver

BTW mods - I just put in the link as an extreme example of the free speech arguments gone mad- and wont be in the least offended if in your wisdom and if you think its not appropriate you have my permission to edit it out.

Nevyn

Why have you linked to encyclopediadramatica after saying people in dublin have strange ideas ? That link has nothing to do with any one in this country.

tallaght01

The thread closing is probably fair enough at this point, if so many of the contributors are complaining.

If people are going to act like kids and go running to the mods everytime someone on the net offends them, then they probably need to be treated like kids by having the thread closed.

Dave!

And if people want to act like morons and not engage in a proper discussion then there's probably no point in keeping the thread open tbh

CDfm

I was joining in with the conspiracy theorists- NAH- but really had wanted to post that somewhere on an abortion thread and now I have.:)

Nevyn

feedback is not to be used to rehash threads which you don't have access to.

stovelid

Thaedydal wrote: »

feedback is not to be used to rehash threads which you don't have access to.

Naughty step ftw.