Luas Line D - Public Consultation

Victor

http://www.rpa.ie/luas/about_luas/line_d

loyatemu

did they sort out the row with Irish rail about the old Broadstone line? They seem to be using it in this route map.

anyway - I don't see this (or line BX) being built anytime soon - unless the Metro gets completely cancelled.

Ckal

Line D would be handy for the new DIT campus though. And BX would also be handy, but the proposed route is a bit... in the way.

dowlingm

the obsession with An Lar continues. If linking with Red Line is the issue run it straight down Church Street from Broadstone to Chancery St? Or is the Line D depot supposed to house BX cars too, and if we don't have a link to BX people might ask once again what BX is for when Metro North is going in?

(additional note - use maps.live.com (birdseye view) for way better views of the route than google maps currently allows)

D.L.R.

Its a pretty decent route, the only problem being that stupid BX loop. Is O'Connell St not wide enough for two-way trams or something :pac:

If that part was ironed out it would actually be a useful line. If it ever got off the drawing board.

Cool Mo D

I think part of the reason for the 2 way loop is to regenerate Marlborough street, and to avoid taking O'Connell street space from the buses. I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of the loop, but the extra liffey bridge will be a bit of an eyesore, so close to O'Connell street. The current liffey bridges are nicely spaced - this will break that up.

D is a good route though - especially since it's nice and segregated at the old broadstone alignment. I think it's really the main justification for going ahead with BX at all - it wouldn't be worth it without line D

weehamster

This line is important as it will eventually be extended to Finglas which was in the platform for change but has been left out T21.

DWCommuter

weehamster wrote: »

This line is important as it will eventually be extended to Finglas which was in the platform for change but has been left out T21.

Thats right, its due to be extended to Finglas by 2083.:D

weehamster

Well I did say "eventually" :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

I still think they should dig a big hole and bury it.

overground on road systems will never have the speed or capacity of an underground line. this is just a cheap option and all the time trams routes are being built, Dublin will never have a decent underground network.

Judgement Day

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I still think they should dig a big hole and bury it.

overground on road systems will never have the speed or capacity of an underground line. this is just a cheap option and all the time trams routes are being built, Dublin will never have a decent underground network.

Sadly until there is law an order in Dublin City Centre having an underground of any sort will be a disaster. As it is Luas has attracted a scumbag element - Jervis, Abbey Street and St.Stephen's Green Stops being the worst. Imagine what it would be like underground? Drug addicts, muggers and beggars - like New York!!! Zero Tolerance for scumbags before wasting money on underground lines. Wait until the DART interconnector is built if you don't believe me. :eek::eek::eek:

Ckal

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I think part of the reason for the 2 way loop is to regenerate Marlborough street, and to avoid taking O'Connell street space from the buses. I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of the loop, but the extra liffey bridge will be a bit of an eyesore, so close to O'Connell street. The current liffey bridges are nicely spaced - this will break that up.

D is a good route though - especially since it's nice and segregated at the old broadstone alignment. I think it's really the main justification for going ahead with BX at all - it wouldn't be worth it without line D

The proposed bridge design is dreadful. Here is the link - you can download the PDF.
I hate modern architecture. Especially modern bridges. I think if they are going to build a multi-functional bridge (Luas lane, Bus lane, bike lane etc.), it should look ornate.

steve-o

dowlingm wrote: »

the obsession with An Lar continues. If linking with Red Line is the issue run it straight down Church Street from Broadstone to Chancery St?

Or run it down Beresford Street and Chancery Place, terminating on Winetavern Street next to the proposed Dart station.

paulm17781

steve-o wrote: »

Or run it down Beresford Street and Chancery Place, terminating on Winetavern Street next to the proposed Dart station.

I like this option but it is very hilly, I think that would be a problem.

Nostradamus

Ckal wrote: »

The proposed bridge design is dreadful. Here is the link - you can download the PDF.
I hate modern architecture. Especially modern bridges. I think if they are going to build a multi-functional bridge (Luas lane, Bus lane, bike lane etc.), it should look ornate.

Bravo to you good sir!!!! I salute your traditional vaules in the face of rampant modernity.

and no doubt run a 1900's DUT double decker tram across it with a Modesty Gruard on the steps to prevent the tram driver from taking liberties in manner unfitting to the ankles of ladies of good virtue who are alighting to the upper saloon.

I suggest we apply your ornate partiuclars to the bridge and name it the Cecil Rhodes Aquaelivator with images of slagutered Zulus cast from the cannons taken at the Balaclava.

Ckal

What can I say? I like ornateness... :rolleyes:

Victor

Nostradamus wrote: »

alighting to the upper saloon.

Ascending?

What would ladies be doing in the upper saloon with the riff-raff?

Sign from 1940s London tram: "Passengers alight at both ends".

SeanW

I'm with Nostradamus, there's enough ugly, crappy, ancient buildings and stuff from the 19th century and earlier around. Bring on the modern, sleek, aesthetically valuable architecture of the 21st century!

bk

It would be nice if they could separate the cycle lane from the bus lane on the bridge better, perhaps with a railing or wall. Every cyclist hates cycling next to a bus. Too many big mirrors jutting out and big wheels to be pulled under.

paulm17781

bk wrote: »

It would be nice if they could separate the cycle lane from the bus lane on the bridge better, perhaps with a railing or wall. Every cyclist hates cycling next to a bus. Too many big mirrors jutting out and big wheels to be pulled under.

That and road lanes are barely wide enough for a bus. Nothing terrifies me more than having a pleasant cycle when out of no where appears a bus / truck taking up the entire lane. It's probably a government strategy to cut down on road users.

spacetweek

A query on the RPA's alignment routes here.

Isn't there a plan to move Broombridge station a hundred M's west to Pelletstown(?) so that it's beside the Ratoath Road?

This is being done both because the existing station is located in too dangerous an area and also to improve access as Ratoath Road is better than being in the middle of some industrial estate.

But in that case, the Luas alignment will miss the new station, as it turns to head north early.

Victor

The suggestion is a new station at Ratoath Road, with the level crossing closed. Residents are objecting to the overbridge that will replace the LC. This station would be very close to the existing one at Broombridge.

The suggestion is that there would be a new station near the Batchelor's factory, a few hundred metres east of the present location, to create a clean break.

All that said, the surrounding area has been improved.

spacetweek

Thanks for that Victor.

Sorry to keep bouncing this one but I have another query.

Does anyone know if BX/D will be designated Green Line, and have through services from Bray to Liffey Junction? Or will Liffey Jct - O'Connell St be a separate service, with a different colour?

Victor

I think that might all still be up in the air. They are looking for a separate depot for BX/D, but I think thats down to stabling capacity and operational flexibility more than anything.

I imagine what you might see is something like Broombridge-Sandyford and Bray-St. Stephen's Green.

Oh, on the new RPA website: http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/luas_broombridge/line_and_stop_design/Pages/23rdDecember2008LuasLineBXDEISScopingReportNewspaperAdvertisement.aspx

Typewriter

spacetweek wrote: »

Thanks for that Victor.

Sorry to keep bouncing this one but I have another query.

Does anyone know if BX/D will be designated Green Line, and have through services from Bray to Liffey Junction? Or will Liffey Jct - O'Connell St be a separate service, with a different colour?

From the looks of this they will be green line and line F shall become the blue line. (I think its blue anyway, I am colour blind!:o)

Notice there is no line E (Dundrum-Christchurch) on that map?

Aard

That map shows the Lucan line as Purple. They won't make it blue, as MN is blue.

Sulmac

Well, the RPA have announced the preferred route corridor:

http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/luas_broombridge/line_and_stop_design/Pages/default.aspx

Map:

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Luas%20Line%20D/Line%20D%20EPR%20December%202008/Line%20D%20Map%201208.jpg

RPA is now focussed on the task of developing the details of the preferred route corridor which will include issues such as the identification of the best location for Line D stops along the former railway cutting; the appropriate location for a stop along the preferred connection to Line BX via Parnell Street; and the appropriate traffic management arrangements needed to facilitate safe operation of the line.

RPA intends to apply for a Railway Order application to An Bord Pleanála in 2009 for a combined Line D / Line BX Luas Line that will run from St. Stephen’s Green to Broombridge via the city centre and Broadstone / Grangegorman.

So the northern end of the Green Line will be constructed in one go - the 'Submissions Received' document 'Theme 14' also confirms that BX and D will both be part of the Green Line:

Will it be a requirement to change trams in order to get to
Broombridge from St. Stephen’s Green?

No, this will not be the case. The existing Green Line services will continue
onwards from St. Stephen’s Green through the city centre and onwards to
Broombridge via Broadstone / Grangegorman. Thus there will be no
requirement to change trams.

So someday it'll hopefully be possible to go from Broombridge to Bray in one tram journey. :rolleyes:

D.L.R.

Line D - fair enough. Extend to Finglas one day. Segragated, quick. Nice idea.

Line BX - hm. Maybe there's smarter ways to spend our money than digging up not one but four roads, just to insert a slow on-street, one-way tram that duplicates another (faster) route anyway. I wouldn't agree that this is a good way to spend money. Its a convoluted mess. There are better routes for a cross-city Luas line, and it doesn't involve O'Connell St (shock horror!)

For example, Line D could easily continue south from Broadstone, along Church Street. This could be excavated into a cut-and-cover tunnel. Interchange opportunity at Four Courts/Smithfield, under the Liffey, another interchange opportunity at Christchurch (future Dart station), and then south along the "Line E" Rathfarnham corridor. If there's no room on the street, then bury it.

Sure, we may not be able to afford it right now, but does that mean we must build these half-baked solutions in the short term just cos they're cheaper? Look at the Red Line and Green Lines as they are now in the city centre. Slow as any bus.

I can't understand this aversion to tunnelling through Dublin CC, when the positive gains are so bleedin obvious!

Zebra3

Just curious at how any future extension would cross (under or over) the Maynooth line.....

strassenwolf

D.L.R. wrote:

For example, Line D could continue south from Broadstone, along Church Street. This could be excavated into a cut-and-cover tunnel. Interchange opportunity at Four Courts/Smithfield, tunnel under the Liffey, another interchange opportunity at Christchurch (future Dart), and then south along the "Line E" Rathfarnham corridor.

You'd be talking some very serious gradients there if you are imagining that there would be a surface stop at Broadstone and a tunnel under the Liffey at Church Street bridge.

The only way it would be feasible to have such a tunnel under the Liffey at that location would be if you also had an underground stop at Broadstone - because of the gradients on Constitution Hill - and it would also therefore be necessary to cut the Broadstone line even deeper than it already is, possibly as far north as Phibsboro, in order to get trams above ground again.

Also, your interchange between the Green line and either the Red line or this Broadstone-Rathfarnham line would be where? It'd probably be a good idea to have one, otherwise you might be spending a lot more money and still leave a lot of people with a lot of changes to make.

D.L.R.

strassenwolf wrote: »

You'd be talking some very serious gradients there if you are imagining that there would be a surface stop at Broadstone and a tunnel under the Liffey at Church Street bridge.

The only way it would be feasible to have such a tunnel under the Liffey at that location would be if you also had an underground stop at Broadstone - because of the gradients on Constitution Hill - and it would also therefore be necessary to cut the Broadstone line even deeper than it already is, possibly as far north as Phibsboro, in order to get trams above ground again.

In my fictional plan, the tunnel portal would be just north of Broadstone Station and the new Broadstone stop would be pretty much underneath the old building. That would allow enough of a gradient headroom for a Liffey tunnel. Total segragation would be my ethos, whether underground or overground. Worth the price, IMO.

strassenwolf wrote: »

Also, your interchange between the Green line and either the Red line or this Broadstone-Rathfarnham line would be where? It'd probably be a good idea to have one, otherwise you might be spending a lot more money and still leave a lot of people with a lot of changes to make.

I'd advocate this plan partially on the basis that the Metro North and Luas Green eventually merge into a single line at some point in the future. Then, you would have a situation where there are four lines arranged in a '#' (grid) format, with 2 N-S lines, 2 E-W lines, and 4 interchange nodes between them.

I don't see a direct interchange with the Green/Blue line in the city as essential. Most travellers would only need 1 change, and 2 is perfectly acceptable for 'fringe' journeys. There would also be an interchange with DART1 at Broombridge, and possibly the Green line at Dundrum if you base this on the Line E blueprint. I think this is a good level of integration considering the other major advantages of the route.

Have a look at Line D and Line E in the same context - they really are two halves of the same route! The route would also open up more of Dublin City west of the central core. There's more to Dublin than O'Connell St.