How much faith do you put in prayer?

Goduznt Xzst

Here's a purely hypothetical for any Catholics out there.

Say you fell ill with some unknown terminal illness. The Pope happened to be touring your town and learnt of your plight. He came to your bedside and said that he would pray for you, he would also ask for all his Archbishops and Priests to pray for you, in turn he would ask for all his congregations to also pray for you. In fact he was so adamant that God would answer his prayer for you that he invoked Papal Infallibility in this matter and received confirmation of such from the Church's magisterium. His only condition is that you do not receive medical treatment for your illness so that the spirit of God can clearly be seen to be acting upon you.

But while you where thinking it over a Doctor comes to you and says that he might be able to treat you for your illness. It is purely experimental but with your consent he would like to try. You learn that this doctor is an Atheist.

Which do you choose?

Aside from this, in what instance would you have faith that God will answer your prayers?

Fanny Cradock

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

Out of curiosity, why only Catholics?

Asiaprod

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why only Catholics?

Eh, the Pope, Papal Infallibility?:D

studiorat

There was a double blind experiment done on a similar subject. The people who had prayers said for them and didn't know and the people who didn't have prayers said for them knew that fact came out equal.

The people who had prayers said for them and did know about it actually did the worst. All subjects were heart patients and the 3rd group did worse off!

It was suggested that the 3rd group had more stress 'cause they thought they were so sick they need praying for.

Question is though how do you double blind the Almighty!!

Can't get a citation right now, but if it's called for I'll oblige.

Puck

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

My faith is in God, who hears my prayers but has also given us medicine. I don't only pray to God when I'm ****ting a brick over something, I pray to Him all the time so if I'm sick I'll mention it.

Not a Catholic btw, so the whole Pope thing doesn't factor into this.

Fanny Cradock

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

Asiaprod wrote: »

Eh, the Pope, Papal Infallibility?:D

Asiaprod: Banned for 3 Weeks


Anyway, I though it was a thread about prayer, not papal infallibility.

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Asiaprod: Banned for 3 Weeks


Anyway, I though it was a thread about prayer, not papal infallibility.

Well there are too many technicalities with throwing a blanket over all Christians groups, as I'm not aware if all of them have a higher human authority that is "closer" to God.

That's whyI ended the original post with a question to Christians in general, in regards to what instances you believe God will answer prayers.

studiorat

Puck wrote: »

My faith is in God, who hears my prayers but has also given us medicine. I don't only pray to God when I'm ****ting a brick over something, I pray to Him all the time so if I'm sick I'll mention it.

"to pray" : "to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy"Ambrose Bierce

Burial

I'm not Catholic, but I believe prayers help people

Why is there no option for Christians who believe prayers don't work in curing people, but the medicine might? I would be of that category...

*EDIT*

I'm going to be honest. I never saw the doctor's medicine option...

Goduznt Xzst

Burial wrote: »

Why is there no option for Christians who believe prayers don't work? I would be of that category...

So you believe in Christ but not in prayer? I don't see how that is possible. What do you believe was the purpose of Jesus and his disciples night in the garden of Gethsemane? Do you believe God was answering no ones prayers? Or was he answering only Jesus' prayers and making the disciples pray for no reason?

EDIT: Ok so you changed your post. So in what sense do you believe God answers prayers then if not to cure people?

Fanny Cradock

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

Medicine and prayers for me

Puck

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

studiorat wrote: »

"to pray" : "to ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy"Ambrose Bierce

Yeah... funnily enough I don't agree with that definition. Even quotable people can talk out of their arse about things they know nothing about.

Burial

I'm not Catholic, but I believe prayers help people

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So you believe in Christ but not in prayer? I don't see how that is possible. What do you believe was the purpose of Jesus and his disciples night in the garden of Gethsemane? Do you believe God was answering no ones prayers? Or was he answering only Jesus' prayers and making the disciples pray for no reason?

EDIT: Ok so you changed your post. So in what sense do you believe God answers prayers then if not to cure people?

I don't believe God answers prayers. Why would he? Why would my life suddenly take priority over anyone elses? Why doesn't he already KNOW that I'm dying and that I would like to be cured? If I've been praying to him all my life and I get this disease, I wouldn't say the prayers worked or will work. I don't see how this disease is a reward for my beliefs before.

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Medicine and prayers for me

that's a bit of sitting on the fence isn't it?

Can I ask you this. If you got sick and used medicine and prayers and got well what would you conclude?

Reminds me of this comic strip:

Fanny Cradock

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

that's a bit of sitting on the fence isn't it?

Can I ask you this. If you got sick and used medicine and prayers and got well what would you conclude?

Reminds me of this comic strip:

I don't see it as sitting on the fence. The issue isn't as black and white as your options suggest. But to answer your question, that's pretty much impossible to say given that the nature and severity of my hypothetical illness hasn't been quantified.

I have no problem accepting that medicine can cure or believing that God can intercede to heal, albeit not often in dramatic fashion.

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I have no problem accepting that medicine can cure or believing that God can intercede to heal, albeit not often in dramatic fashion.

Do you imagine God has ever answered the prayers of an amputee then? If you believe there is a possibility that God, by prayer, can "intercede to heal" a person, then why has he never given an amputee back their limb? Would that be too dramatic?

CerebralCortex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Do you imagine God has ever answered the prayers of an amputee then? If you believe there is a possibility that God, by prayer, can "intercede to heal" a person, then why has he never given an amputee back their limb? Would that be too dramatic?

Ah come man thats breaking the rules.

ChocolateSauce

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't see it as sitting on the fence. The issue isn't as black and white as your options suggest. But to answer your question, that's pretty much impossible to say given that the nature and severity of my hypothetical illness hasn't been quantified.

I have no problem accepting that medicine can cure or believing that God can intercede to heal, albeit not often in dramatic fashion.

Well it can never hurt to take extra precautions!

Agonist

studiorat wrote: »

There was a double blind experiment done on a similar subject. The people who had prayers said for them and didn't know and the people who didn't have prayers said for them knew that fact came out equal.

The people who had prayers said for them and did know about it actually did the worst. All subjects were heart patients and the 3rd group did worse off!

It was suggested that the 3rd group had more stress 'cause they thought they were so sick they need praying for.

Question is though how do you double blind the Almighty!!

Can't get a citation right now, but if it's called for I'll oblige.

I heard about this study and it piqued my curiosity. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the result of a similar study where the test subjects were cursed and sent evil wishes. Well, I can guess at the outcome.

The really interesting thing would be the excuses made to stop the study going ahead. A sector of society would never allow it, despite the proof that intercessions don't work.

philologos

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

Why should not being Roman Catholic mean that you believe prayer cannot help people? I don't understand that option in the poll.

Fanny Cradock

I'm an Atheist, I don't believe in prayers

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Do you imagine God has ever answered the prayers of an amputee then?

I'm sure that He has.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

If you believe there is a possibility that God, by prayer, can "intercede to heal" a person, then why has he never given an amputee back their limb? Would that be too dramatic?

Well, given that I believe in the Christian God - an omnipotent being - why would I place limits on His abilities? Why limbs don't miraculously grow back I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that and probably never will.

But if, for instance, somebody did grow back a lobbed-off extremity, we would remain on opposite sides of the divide. You would think that there is only a medical/ evolutionary explanation behind it, whereas I don't dismiss the possibility that it could have been a miracle. I've certainly heard a number of stories which suggest miraculous intervention. To you they would probably suggest change.

Tomato/ tomato

Goduznt Xzst

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm sure that He has.

I was going to ask you how you can be sure, but I'm guessing its the kind of surety that you have that God exists. Being that you have no evidence to support your claim but you are sure of it nevertheless.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, given that I believe in the Christian God - an omnipotent being - why would I place limits on His abilities? Why limbs don't miraculously grow back I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that and probably never will.

You do place limits on his abilities though. You don't believe he is capable of evil or that he can lie.

What I am asking though is do you think God answers the prayers of people who suffer internal infections and disease more than he cares about Amputees? I mean I have heard numerous religious accounts from people claiming that their relative was saved by a miracle (helped only slightly by medicine) but never have I heard of someone who had a limb amputated saying God had answered their prayers.

Think about it yourself, how many sick people do you know that had their prayers answered? So why is God answering the prayers of all these people who suffer internal illnesses and not anyone who loses a part of their external body?

CerebralCortex

Didn't you hear god has answered amputees? Here take a look. Oh wait a sec it turns out it was science oops silly me


Forgive the cheap shot please.

Tim_Murphy

God answers prayers some times
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28812

sorella

Please don't ask me for chapter and verse on this as it is long ago, but this and other dramatic heaings have and do happen.

Look up the records for Lourdes and Medjugorje; and also some of Padre Pio's work....

These are authenticated beyond all doubt.

With padre Pio what often happened was a kind of remission for a couple of years so that the person could put their life in order.

And we are talking major sicknesses here; cancers, leukaemia

Also in the Free Church, a lady called Jennier Rees Larcome was suddenly and dramatically healed after many years in a wheelchair; her muscle tone etc came back immediately.

See this site...

http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section2/transcript/healing.htm

As the opening part of this site shows, it is perfectly Scriptural and of the church

As to why some and not others? That is where our faith and trust come in, and our awareness that this life is only a part of life.

Sometimes some Churches make those who are not healed feel guilty for lack of faith, but it is not that at all.

Been there suffered that:)

By the way, that OP hypothesis is just that; a hypothesis lacking in reality..

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Do you imagine God has ever answered the prayers of an amputee then? If you believe there is a possibility that God, by prayer, can "intercede to heal" a person, then why has he never given an amputee back their limb? Would that be too dramatic?

Goduznt Xzst

sorella wrote: »

Look up the records for Lourdes and Medjugorje; and also some of Padre Pio's work....

did any of these "miracles" feature amputees getting their limbs back? I'd be very much interested to read about that. So far it seems God is biased against answering the prayers of amputees. I mean there's "evidence" he's cured cancer/leukaemia patients, heck hes even made a cripple walk again. But all these amputees prayers go unanswered.

Seems slightly unfair don't you think?

sorella

The tone of your reply makes response in vain:)

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

did any of these "miracles" feature amputees getting their limbs back? I'd be very much interested to read about that. So far it seems God is biased against answering the prayers of amputees. I mean there's "evidence" he's cured cancer/leukaemia patients, heck hes even made a cripple walk again. But all these amputees prayers go unanswered.

Seems slightly unfair don't you think?

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You do place limits on his abilities though. You don't believe he is capable of evil or that he can lie.

That has to do with His moral qualities of holiness rather than to ability. All of us are physically capable of doing stuff that we would never choose to do. I am probably physically capable of eating 50 prunes - but I am confident that I will never be so inclined.

I mean I have heard numerous religious accounts from people claiming that their relative was saved by a miracle (helped only slightly by medicine) but never have I heard of someone who had a limb amputated saying God had answered their prayers.

I have met people who claim that God gave them new limbs in answer to prayer. They showed me photographs of themselves with missing limbs, but there was no way to ascertain if the photos were fakes or of twins or doppelgangers.

studiorat

PDN wrote: »

I am probably physically capable of eating 50 prunes

Ohhh! Just too good to pass on! But I won't say anything, I'll be good:D

But you need to tell us more about this limbs growing back business.

Goduznt Xzst

sorella wrote: »

The tone of your reply makes response in vain:)

ah yes, the usually Christian response that roughly translates to "I don't know how to answer your question". I used to use them myself a lot as a Christian when given a question I had no clue about as the Bible didn't cover it. Responses like:

"there is no point continuing this discussion with you as your demeanor is disagreeable"

"discussing this topic further with you will yield no result"... etc

PDN wrote: »

I have met people who claim that God gave them new limbs in answer to prayer. They showed me photographs of themselves with missing limbs, but there was no way to ascertain if the photos were fakes or of twins or doppelgangers.

Also PDN, I know a few people who have shown me photographs of UFO's flying over their backgarden? Would a logical individual assume from that that Aliens do infact exist and are visiting this planet?

Biro

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

ah yes, the usually Christian response that roughly translates to "I don't know how to answer your question". I used to use them myself a lot as a Christian when given a question I had no clue about as the Bible didn't cover it. Responses like:

"there is no point continuing this discussion with you as your demeanor is disagreeable"

"discussing this topic further with you will yield no result"... etc

That's because sometimes it's like trying to explain to a David Beckham fan that he isn't actually the best footballer in the world. They'll recite examples of scoring goals that the ball bent around a few 90 degree angles and blindly ignore your comparisons to anything that contradicts their belief that they're right and you're wrong. It works both ways you know, there are Christians too ignorant to argue successfully any point that they're trying to make, and also athiests too ignorant. There are unanswerable questions no matter what camp you reside in.
Some people like yourself though seem to dedicate a portion of their lives specifically to argue with Christians. Looking at your username, it seems you joined boards.ie - which coveres nearly all topics and all walks of life - just to proclaim that you're right and we're wrong. Why dedicate so much energy trying to prove there's nothing there?

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Also PDN, I know a few people who have shown me photographs of UFO's flying over their backgarden? Would a logical individual assume from that that Aliens do infact exist and are visiting this planet?

Bad analogy. A UFO is an unidentified flying object. It doesn't mean "Alien space ship" or "Definately not from Earth craft". It's putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5.
Shaking someone's hand with my right hand and then showing them a picture of me a year earlier with no right arm is very different to showing them a picture of a UFO and telling them it's proof that aliens exist. Neither might be real, but they're not the same.