Unemployed Solicitors ?

Teacherman

My wife lost her job in February as a solicitor. She has been looking now for over six months. She only had about two years experience. Has anybody out there had a similar experience?:( I'm mainly interested in other legal people ,but would be good to hear from anybody who's lost a job and now finds their family in precarious financial circumstances.

Orchard Rebel

I'm an in-house solicitor, teacherman and old enough to recall similar recessions in the UK in the 90's, when trainees and qualified solicitors were let go by the bucketload.

At the time, it was unprecedented. Up until then, the legal profession had been seen as "bomb proof", particularly by those inside it. Gradually, the market adjusted itself and growth resumed. There were casualties though. I'd estimate only a third of my cohort at Law School went on to qualify as solicitors.

The best advice I can offer your wife is to be patient and tenacious - not an easy thing when you have a family to keep and you were on a good wage. Keep knocking on doors and don't be afraid to examine other areas of the law. At 2PQE, moves are quite common and your wife is unlikely to have found a permanent area of practice as yet.

The important thing to remember is that recessions pass and that, as the market starts to grow again, your wife's prior experience will stand her in good stead.

Good luck with the search.

Gangu

Its tough out there at the moment all right. If she is a property lawyer I suggest that she consider looking at another area.

amen

could she not start her own practice?

Maximilian

I think a lot of solicitors and firms are starting to become affected by of all of this. I have heard a lot of stories of various firms letting support staff and solicitors go of late. It's not being widely reported or perhaps acknowledged but it's definitely happening.

I'm not sure what advice I can give. Most people seem to be taking a "we'll just have to ride it out and hope for the best" attitude. Unfortunately, I can only see things getting worse next year.

Gangu

Maximilian wrote: »

I think a lot of solicitors and firms are starting to become affected by of all of this. I have heard a lot of stories of various firms letting support staff and solicitors go of late. It's not being widely reported or perhaps acknowledged but it's definitely happening.

I'm not sure what advice I can give. Most people seem to be taking a "we'll just have to ride it out and hope for the best" attitude. Unfortunately, I can only see things getting worse next year.

Agreed, and for the person who suggested starting her own practice they should realise that is often as feasible for solicitors as it is suggesting to any other PAYE person start their own business. Not everyone is cut out for it, and the initial outlay is a huge investment. Also, with such competition now amongst existing practices to the extent of it getting cut-throat it would be harder to start a new practice than, say, a year ago.

thetyreman

Gangu wrote: »

Agreed, and for the person who suggested starting her own practice they should realise that is often as feasible for solicitors as it is suggesting to any other PAYE person start their own business. Not everyone is cut out for it, and the initial outlay is a huge investment. Also, with such competition now amongst existing practices to the extent of it getting cut-throat it would be harder to start a new practice than, say, a year ago.

The sooner the better it gets cut throat then,because up untill now(last 10 yrs)they have been overchargeing and ripping people off big time,espically on propert transactions imho..

Maximilian

thetyreman wrote: »

The sooner the better it gets cut throat then,because up untill now(last 10 yrs)they have been overchargeing and ripping people off big time,espically on propert transactions imho..

..yet paying the auctioneers even more money to what, put an ad in the paper and show people around the house. If anything conveyancing fees have come down but I suppose some people would like to pay nothing.

nuac

Re comments in above recent posts, there are a number of solicitors' offices in each fair-sized town, and quite a number in the larger towns/cities. They are all in competition with each other. The consumer/client has a wide choice.

It does not look as if there will be much work available for most occupations for next year or so. Those young enough and able to travel might consider Australia.

Carpenter

HI
I might need 1 to do a nixer

thetyreman

Maximilian wrote: »

..yet paying the auctioneers even more money to what, put an ad in the paper and show people around the house. If anything conveyancing fees have come down but I suppose some people would like to pay nothing.

I thought this thread discussion was about solicisitors not auctioneers,what have auctioneers got to do with the topic,if you want to discuss the pros and cons of auctioneering i suggest you start a thread doing so.And if as you sar conveyancing fees have come down,it is only due to more competition and greed,not as you might like to lead people to beleive out of a moral standing,unless you are a solicisitor of course...

elgransenor

thetyreman wrote: »

I thought this thread discussion was about solicisitors not auctioneers,what have auctioneers got to do with the topic,if you want to discuss the pros and cons of auctioneering i suggest you start a thread doing so.And if as you sar conveyancing fees have come down,it is only due to more competition and greed,not as you might like to lead people to beleive out of a moral standing,unless you are a solicisitor of course...

What stimulates more competition? Greed.
You can't have it both ways saying on the one hand that solicitors are greedy but on the other hand it is greed that drives competition.
Everyones a winner!

McCrack

thetyreman wrote: »

I thought this thread discussion was about solicisitors not auctioneers,what have auctioneers got to do with the topic,if you want to discuss the pros and cons of auctioneering i suggest you start a thread doing so.And if as you sar conveyancing fees have come down,it is only due to more competition and greed,not as you might like to lead people to beleive out of a moral standing,unless you are a solicisitor of course...

Conveyancing fees have come down in recent years due to competition (increasing no of solicitors).
It couldnt possibly have anything to do with greed as you cynically suggest. That's just a contradiction.

Maximilian

thetyreman wrote: »

I thought this thread discussion was about solicisitors not auctioneers,what have auctioneers got to do with the topic,if you want to discuss the pros and cons of auctioneering i suggest you start a thread doing so.And if as you sar conveyancing fees have come down,it is only due to more competition and greed,not as you might like to lead people to beleive out of a moral standing,unless you are a solicisitor of course...

Yet you happily go off-topic yourself to have a dig at solicitors fees. In any event, no I used the autioneer as a comparison on the side but my point (which was obvious) was that competition has brought conveyancing fees way down over the last decade. But don't take my word for it, the Competition Authority, who investigated the profession a few years back, agree. I'm sure if you search around you can find their report, not that you will agree with it of course. You have your opinion and by god you will stick to it, right?

thetyreman

Yes prices may have come down because of competition,but the reason they are staying down is because of greed.I suppose really what i have a gripe with is the hourly rate that they charge,i dont know how the can justify it,i dont tell me that they are all independent on there priceing because they are not.Example,i priced 4 diff solicisitors on a certain transaction,not a big fee amount 2000euro.3 quoted the same price and the other was 10euro dearer.

Maximilian

Wearing my Mod hat for a second.

Back on topic please.

Thanks.

McCrack

thetyreman "Yes prices may have come down because of competition,but the reason they are staying down is because of greed"

I'm sorry I know it's off-topic but but I just cant get to grips with this reasoning. How the hell, I mean you concede that conveyancing fees have come down in recent years because of competition (which is correct) yet you maintain they are staying down because of solicitors "greed". Just think about that and try put a bit a common sense into it and I'd love you to explain your reasoning.

Secondly you were quoted in and around 2k for a conveyance. That's pretty average, a solicitors hourly rate in a professional matter is around €300 which compares well to any other professional.

With respect I suspect you dont understand/appreciate the work that a solicitor will actually do in a conveyancing matter on your behalf, it's not as simple as sign your name and pass the contract.

Maximilian

Seriously guys, back on topic. None of this has anything to do with this thread, which is getting completely derailed. I really don't want to start handing out infractions.

thetyreman

[Deleted by mod]

Maximilian

tyreman infracted.

Dan133269

was on the law society website today and saw vacancies for solicitors in Dublin. Also there seems to be a few on the employment websites such as monster. how could things be going that bad if there are vacancies being posted? I thought every firm and practice would be bombarded with applications, let alone have to advertise them

BanzaiBk

There are 9 associates at the practice I work in, excluding my dad, my 2 aunts, a cousin and myself, and we are actually hiring at the moment. A few friends in Dublin haven't had their contracts renewed in the past few weeks, not really the same as being let go though. I haven't heard of any losses in Cork (where I am based) though?

Gangu

nuac wrote: »

Re comments in above recent posts, there are a number of solicitors' offices in each fair-sized town, and quite a number in the larger towns/cities. They are all in competition with each other. The consumer/client has a wide choice.

Hear hear. Its a tired line that people constantly trot out without knowing what work is involved in a property transaction (for example) or by those who dont have much dealings with solicitors.

Gangu

BanzaiBk wrote: »

There are 9 associates at the practice I work in, excluding my dad, my 2 aunts, a cousin and myself, and we are actually hiring at the moment. A few friends in Dublin haven't had their contracts renewed in the past few weeks, not really the same as being let go though. I haven't heard of any losses in Cork (where I am based) though?

There have been redundancies in Cork. If you look at the vacancies that are on offer they dont really cover the sectors that seem to be heavily affected. Quite a few redundancies across town in Dublin too some being "soft". I know one senior solicitor in a big 5 firm that has been told they have 6 months and a great reference to find something else, based on the lack of workflow in the particular area that they are in.

Good to hear your practice is going well though BanzaiBk

Teacherman

I dont know if all that made me feel any better-probably worse!:(

walrusgumble

could it not be possible if unemployed solicitors work, for legal aid board for now (steady income provided there are vacancies) or just get on the panels and start attending the criminal district courts in the hope that potential client is looking for a solicitor? (is that allowed - i know one cant tout for clients)

did n't many doctors set up practice in their homes (spare rooms) etc . ( i note what previous thread stated about some not being up to the running of an office (business cough) yet and i doubt many new solicitors even have the luxury of a spare room in their home ))

wouldn't areas like debt collection (could one sleep at night) and criminal law cases rising?

dats_right

walrusgumble wrote: »

could it not be possible if unemployed solicitors work, for legal aid board for now

If only it was that simple; i) As I understand it there is a 'recruitment freeze'
in the Legal Aid Board at the moment, and; ii) The Board's work is almost exclusively family and refugee law, so unless you have worked in these areas before then you are in difficulty.

walrusgumble wrote: »

or just get on the panels and start attending the criminal district courts in the hope that potential client is looking for a solicitor?

Again it's not that simple, there is very little similarity in the job a conveyancing or a commercial solicitor does with a district court criminal practitioner. They really are worlds apart. Not only would they not have the expertise or experience to suddenly start practising in a new area, it would be necessary to either; get a job in a criminal practice, or start up their own practice with all the obstacles and implications that entails. I don't think practising from home is realistic for criminal practice, I don't see too many sane people inviting junkies and criminals into their homes!

walrusgumble wrote: »

wouldn't areas like debt collection (could one sleep at night) and criminal law cases rising?

Short answer- yes, probably. But again, debt collection is an area that for the most part is dealt with by legal execs and support staff. It isn't going to create lots of new jobs for qualified solicitors, maybe some, but not enough to significantly ameliorate the current crisis.

johnfás

dats_right wrote: »

Short answer- yes, probably. But again, debt collection is an area that for the most part is dealt with by legal execs and support staff. It isn't going to create lots of new jobs for qualified solicitors, maybe some, but not enough to significantly ameliorate the current crisis.

Most debt collecting is done on behalf of the banks and most of it is done by small firms of solicitors who have a longstanding relationship with the bank. I worked in one such firm during the summer. I would imagine that it is very difficult for a firm without the experience or contacts or someone setting up anew to create a practise with a strong emphasis on debt collecting. I would imagine that it will merely result in those firms which do specialise in debt collecting getting busier and perhaps taking on one or more qualified solicitors - more likely to be legal execs as you say as they do alot of the work associated with debt collecting which is to all intents and purposes simply working off a defined template.

BanzaiBk

johnfás wrote: »

Most debt collecting is done on behalf of the banks and most of it is done by small firms of solicitors who have a longstanding relationship with the bank. I worked in one such firm during the summer.

In Cork?

dats_right

johnfás wrote: »

I would imagine that it is very difficult for a firm without the experience or contacts or someone setting up anew to create a practise with a strong emphasis on debt collecting.

Debt collection is probably the simplest of all practice areas (i.e. getting judgements/registering judgements/installment orders/committal orders- but getting money is the hard part!). So it would be possible for any solicitor to more or less start one day from scratch without any experience in the area. That said unless you are doing quite a bit of it, it probably won't be profitable enough. So there are a few firms such as Croskerrys that do hardly anything else other than debt collection and have highly efficient streamlined procedures. I agree that without contacts in a bank/credit union then you are at a disadvantage. But there are a lot more businesses chasing defaulting debtors then just the banks.

Milk & Honey

dats_right wrote: »

If only it was that simple;



I don't think practising from home is realistic for criminal practice, I don't see too many sane people inviting junkies and criminals into their homes!

Most criminal clients never see the inside of the solicitors offices, let alone their homes. Meetings take place in the vicinity of the courts or in the prisons. There is a solicitor running a criminal legal aid practice from an apartment on the Dublin Quays.
That said there is a waiting list to be put on the panel for legal aid so it is not a simple matter of going to the local District Court and hanging around. Most business is gained by
1. Repeat clients
2. Recommendations from existing clients.
3. Bench asignments, where a judge picks a solicitor in the courtroom.
4. Casual walk ins to the office.
5. Approaches in the vicinity off the court from clients.
6. Referrals from other solicitors who do not wish to handle the case themselves.

A newbie relies mostly on 3 and 5 above. Casual approaches in the courthouse are rare.
Bench assignments are common but are usually made to solicitors who are well known to the judge. The senior partners of the criminal law firms, who are well known to the judges, tend to got to court on a daily basis to ensure that their firm gets the maximum number of bench assignments. It is a slow process for a newbie to build up a sufficient number of case to make a reasonable income.
Every scrap of criminal business is chased assiduously and there is no easy route to making a living income from it, starting from scratch.

dats_right

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Most criminal clients never see the inside of the solicitors offices, let alone their homes. Meetings take place in the vicinity of the courts or in the prisons.

Even so, it is an unavoidable fact that there will still be many criminal clients who do attend at their solicitors office. In fact, some criminal practices that I have been in resemble banks or post offices with glass screens at reception, doors locked, etc. I can only presume that this is as a result of clients.

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is a solicitor running a criminal legal aid practice from an apartment on the Dublin Quays.

Good for them. I just hope that they don't have a Bang Olufsen 40" flat screen tv in the apartment!

BanzaiBk

dats_right wrote: »

Even so, it is an unavoidable fact that there will still be many criminal clients who do attend at their solicitors office. In fact, some criminal practices that I have been in resemble banks or post offices with glass screens at reception, doors locked, etc. I can only presume that this is as a result of clients.

That's crazy, I've never ever seen that. I can only imagine the kind of clientele they are dealing with.

From my experience its very rare for meetings to take place in the practice. I spend most of my life hanging around prisons and cafe's around Chancery st., and I always run into the same people doing exactly the same.

Milk & Honey

dats_right wrote: »

Even so, it is an unavoidable fact that there will still be many criminal clients who do attend at their solicitors office.

It is entirely avoidable. Just make appointments away from the office. Criminal clients are invariably in court frequently. Consultations take place in the vicinity of the courthouse. Many firms do this. Some do meet clients at the office. Some big criminal practises have open plan reception areas. It is not just criminal firms which are security conscious. Try an walk around the offices of A & L goodbody for example.

elgransenor

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Most criminal clients never see the inside of the solicitors offices, let alone their homes. Meetings take place in the vicinity of the courts or in the prisons. There is a solicitor running a criminal legal aid practice from an apartment on the Dublin Quays.
That said there is a waiting list to be put on the panel for legal aid so it is not a simple matter of going to the local District Court and hanging around. Most business is gained by
1. Repeat clients
2. Recommendations from existing clients.
3. Bench asignments, where a judge picks a solicitor in the courtroom.
4. Casual walk ins to the office.
5. Approaches in the vicinity off the court from clients.
6. Referrals from other solicitors who do not wish to handle the case themselves.

A newbie relies mostly on 3 and 5 above. Casual approaches in the courthouse are rare.
Bench assignments are common but are usually made to solicitors who are well known to the judge. The senior partners of the criminal law firms, who are well known to the judges, tend to got to court on a daily basis to ensure that their firm gets the maximum number of bench assignments. It is a slow process for a newbie to build up a sufficient number of case to make a reasonable income.
Every scrap of criminal business is chased assiduously and there is no easy route to making a living income from it, starting from scratch.

Good post there Milk & Honey.
Pertinent, relevant information that a guy could make use of.

Teacherman

BanzaiBk wrote: »

There are 9 associates at the practice I work in, excluding my dad, my 2 aunts, a cousin and myself, and we are actually hiring at the moment. A few friends in Dublin haven't had their contracts renewed in the past few weeks, not really the same as being let go though. I haven't heard of any losses in Cork (where I am based) though?

In fairness not having your contract renewed means no job. The exact same result as being made redundant. There will of course be firms still hiring but sometimes these jobs are in quite specialized areas and also the bar for experience can be quite high nowadays for even General practice jobs.

dazza21ie

BanzaiBk wrote: »

There are 9 associates at the practice I work in, excluding my dad, my 2 aunts, a cousin and myself, and we are actually hiring at the moment[/B]. A few friends in Dublin haven't had their contracts renewed in the past few weeks, not really the same as being let go though. I haven't heard of any losses in Cork (where I am based) though?

Who are you hiring? A couple of uncles and grand father for good measure?!!:):)

BanzaiBk

dazza21ie wrote: »

Who are you hiring? A couple of uncles and grand father for good measure?!!:):)

Fluent Polish speakers actually. A lot of practices are family based fyi.

Maximilian

BanzaiBk wrote: »

Fluent Polish speakers actually. A lot of practices are family based fyi.

A lot of businesses of all types, are family based.

dazza21ie

BanzaiBk wrote: »

Fluent Polish speakers actually. A lot of practices are family based fyi.

True but im sure that a relative is less likely to be laid off unless absolutely necessary. In non-family based firms commercial realities dicate whether there will be redundancies

BanzaiBk

Last in, first out. My father is in charge but I very much doubt he'd let a 10 yr experienced associate go instead of a greeny like me. Of course I see what you mean though.

dazza21ie

BanzaiBk wrote: »

Last in, first out. My father is in charge but I very much doubt he'd let a 10 yr experienced associate go instead of a greeny like me. Of course I see what you mean though.

I don't think the last in first out rule is the correct way of picking someone for redundancy according to the legislation but very few employees would argue if it was done this way.

TheDemiurge

Just found this thread. I'm a solicitor, ten years qualified and practising this year, and I have to say that on balance I deeply regret it. Not so much the years spent training, but p***ing the last ten years away on a "profession" that is as tenable as candy floss. To the OP and other trainees, get out of it as fast as you possibly can.

There is no doubt that being a solicitor was a good thing as opposed to other trades in bad times of the 1980s. Conveyancing fees were 1.5% of the purchase price and 1% of the sale price. Whilst this may seem a lot to the man on the street, the fees ensured a steady stream of cashflow so that solicitors could bankroll their practices and take on litigation for clients without seeking payment up front.

Solicitors - being total idiots - were the only profession/trade to actually drop their fees during the recent "boom". A conveyance cannot be done properly, and the solicitor's overheads met, for approximately 700 Euro plus VAT and outlays, yet this is all you will pay in the Dublin region. One firm in Kerry started it all, and the whole pyramid came crashing down for lawyers after that. Meanwhile, estate agents continue to command 1% for bu**er all. And then some.

On top of this, the Boland regulations of 1987 (which led to the whole Lynn/Byrne debacle) put the onus onto the high street solicitors for the lending bank's work, where they certified title (instead of the bank having its own staff doing it). The Law Society did nothing to stop this in 1987 and they are paying the price now. The high street solicitor can be sued by the banks if they cock up the conveyance with a policy excess per file of 5,000 Euro (in spite of the paltry conveyancing fee and with aggressive clients telephoning morning noon and night). My insurance premium for 2008 was 2,750 Euro, and because of Lynn and Byrne, I'm looking at 9,100 Euro premium for 2009. Plus another 2,500 Euro practising certificate fee for 2009 to the Law Society (whose members are always on voicemail). I'm currently overdrawn 33,000 Euro on running costs.

The financial institutions are a nightmare to deal with - they constantly lose every piece of documentation you send them, and you won't get paid by your client if you try to bill extra for time spent redoing your work.

And as for litigation - you may as well be running the St. Vincent de Paul. It's charity work, nothing more. If someone sues someone else for say an amount of 2,000 Euro, the amount of hours you have to put in to get them that 2,000 Euro - that's assuming the Defendant pays by the way - the scale fee of 380 Euro is just laughable.

Most people do law because Mammies and Daddies bully their kids into it, thinking that it's a legal form of a printing press. What a f**king joke.

Being a solicitor in Ireland, you're at the bottom of food chain financially, and the top of the hit list in every other way. Get the hell out of it, whilst you still can.:mad::mad::mad:

Maximilian

A bit of an exaggeration but I can't help but agree with a lot of that. Residential conveyancing and DC litigation are a pointless waste of time and energy. Other areas are lucrative though.

NavanMan80

nuac wrote: »

It does not look as if there will be much work available for most occupations for next year or so. Those young enough and able to travel might consider Australia.

I left a Top Five to join Minter Ellison in Sydney, 6 months ago, thank god I made the move sooner than later. I would consider Dubai or New Zealand too.

I was headhunted by an Irish Legal Recruiter based in London (Liam Taaffe - www.GRlaw.co.uk) he organised interviews for me within 2 weeks - i'd 100% make that move. Loads of my old college and work friends are looking to move to Sydney or Dubai too. It looks like they'll have no choice!!!

Dan133269

jesus lads are things that bad at the moment?? I'm doing the fe1s next year and hoping to get a training contract after that. I've known for a while that the whole industry is saturated with qualified people after a limited number of jobs but I've always had the mentality that if something is hard that's not good enough reason to be dissuaded from it. Would those of you already working as solicitors strongly advise prospective solicitors not to get into it?

Teacherman

A Professional training will always stand to you. Do your exams but have something to fall back on in case you cant get your training contract. Pick something specialized legally as I have learned one thing-conveyancing/General practice Lawyers are the first to go in a downturn.

Gangu

Dan133269 wrote: »

jesus lads are things that bad at the moment?? I'm doing the fe1s next year and hoping to get a training contract after that. I've known for a while that the whole industry is saturated with qualified people after a limited number of jobs but I've always had the mentality that if something is hard that's not good enough reason to be dissuaded from it. Would those of you already working as solicitors strongly advise prospective solicitors not to get into it?

Yes they are that bad.

Gangu

NavanMan80 wrote: »

I left a Top Five to join Minter Ellison in Sydney, 6 months ago, thank god I made the move sooner than later. I would consider Dubai or New Zealand too.

I was headhunted by an Irish Legal Recruiter based in London (Liam Taaffe - www.GRlaw.co.uk) he organised interviews for me within 2 weeks - i'd 100% make that move. Loads of my old college and work friends are looking to move to Sydney or Dubai too. It looks like they'll have no choice!!!

I worked in ME in Brisbane a good few years ago, and Clayton Utz in Sydney. What sort of salary drop does it involve in terms of the move these days compared to commerical solicitors' rate in Dublin? And are there many jobs going.

juke

Dan133269 wrote: »

jesus lads are things that bad at the moment??

If not worse.
I'm also qualified 10 years. I'm facing redundancy in January unless there's a miracle between now and then. My areas are conveyancing (more commercial than residential) and employment, and new work in these areas has completely dried up.

TheDemiurge

Hi Juke. Even I would have thought that employment/bullying/harassment was the last area in which even a small fee could be commanded. Obviously not.

The problem wouldn't have been as bad, and there would have been far less redundancies, had lawyers not made the fatal error of dropping conveyancing fees below the traditional fee of 1%. We simply don't bill properly for legal services in this country.

Other areas such as family, employment and litigation just aren't worth doing. If your client is at a disadvantage, you simply can't expect them to cough up 200 Euro a hour which you need to run your practice. They don't have the money - that's why they came to you in the first place. And if you were to bill properly, what they would actually owe you, even if you get your costs, would be well in excess of what they would receive as an award. I'm talking mainly about District and Circuit Court cases here. Conveyancing fees of 1% were designed to allow solicitors to do other work which doesn't produce any fee income until many years later.

I'll be savaged for saying this but in essence law, apart from conveyancing (which the man on the street could not do because of the Boland regulations and the bank's reliance on solicitor's insurance) is a candy floss profession - it's more of a general education than say plumbing, electrical work or accountancy. It also attracts a contemporary "yummy mummy" element who qualify for image purposes, p**s around for a couple of years in practice, then make a point of getting up the duff and using it as an excuse to get out.

I know that I'm reaching the end when lawyer jibes send me into a violent rage and I want to punch the ignorant moron in the mouth. When you are placed in the invidious position of saying what you do for a "living", and get groans and sneers in return. Everyone thinks you're minted, and much of it is deeply misplaced jealousy.

Dan133269, you will not make money. (One third of my contemporaries in Blackhall from ten years ago have wisely gotten out of the game.) But you will be very, very accountable to everybody.

In short - I would not recommend it.