HCAP Range Test

hazza

Has anyone on here done the HCAP range test??
I met a few lads over the weekend who put the wind up me by saying how hard they found it. They also remarked that there was no practice shots allowed and the waiting around was hell.
I'm looking for pointers really beacause I'm due to do it on 18th October and apart from a few dry firing exercises (no nearby range) I havent a clue how best to prepare for this.

packas

hazza wrote: »

Has anyone on here done the HCAP range test??
I met a few lads over the weekend who put the wind up me by saying how hard they found it. They also remarked that there was no practice shots allowed and the waiting around was hell.
I'm looking for pointers really beacause I'm due to do it on 18th October and apart from a few dry firing exercises (no nearby range) I havent a clue how best to prepare for this.

A lot of waiting & no practice shots allowed. Sounds like a good test for deer stalking :D:D

My advice is to practice with your shooting sticks & be sure of you equipment. Make sure you're zero is as you expect it.

Also if you're not used to ranges my advice would be to:-

• Try and block out all surrounding noises/distractions. Try double plugging i.e. ear plugs followed by muffs. It will help eliminate surround noise which may distract you.
  
• Always double check that you're about to shoot your own target. You'd be amazed how many end up putting holes in someone elses target

DR6.5

I did the range test a couple of years ago and found it alright, the majority of the people who have failed the HCAP failed on the multiple choice questions not the range test. Practise the required shooting format at the required distances to familiarise with what is required on the day.
One thing to look out for when you are doing the range test is to make sure that you are aiming at your target, a lot of guys were shooting the wrong target which meant that they had to wait to shoot again in the afternoon. Also you cant line in your rifle on the day so make sure it is lined in.

A lot of guys will tell you that it is hard, I had not shot on a range before the HCAP and didnt find it too bad.

Good luck with the range test.

hazza

Thanks for the replies lads.

"A lot of waiting & no practive shots allowed. Sounds like a good test for deer stalking " Didnt realise how funny this was until you spotted the obvious

Thats a good one about making sure to shoot at your own target:D.... easy to slip up in the noise and excitement on the day I'd say.

Any thanks again lads I'm off for some practice on the sticks.

Sika_Stalker

just another little pointer
if you have a varible scope keep the mag down low at the closer ranges as it will make the shooting a bit more stable.

hazza

Cheers for that Sika, but I have a fixed scope an 8x56. Which is good for low light so I'm told but it does tend to exaggerate my wobble on the aim.

One other thing how did you find kneeling/sitting and would you recommend a set sticks for that as well?

Sika_Stalker

if you go to woodies or any other garden centre
they sell green aluminium sticks with a plastic coating buy 3 of them and use a strong rubber band to keep them together
you can move the band down for the kneeling and then back up for the standing

hazza

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

if you go to woodies or any other garden centre
they sell green aluminium sticks with a plastic coating buy 3 of them and use a strong rubber band to keep them together
you can move the band down for the kneeling and then back up for the shooting

Genius - thats neat. And I know the canes youre talking about they have them in 4home near us. Will get a set on the way home.
Thanks Sika

It wasn't me!

I didn't know you could use a rest, thought it was offhand. To be fair though, a deer kill zone sized target at 100 yards is doable offhand, with practice; difficult but definitely doable.

Sika_Stalker

you can use any tool you would use when your out hunting
from a rucksack to a bi-pod at 100m and shooting sticks at 60m and 40m
also when your shooting at 100metres bring a mat that you can lie down on

Sparks

The shooting test isn't the hard part, according to those who run the HCAP - most of their fails are on knowlege of what's in the manual, not the actual shooting. The shooting test itself consists of a grouping test at 100m prone, you have to put 3 shots in a 100mm group; then there are 6 shots at a paper deer target, 2 from 100m prone, 2 from 60m kneeling, 2 from 40m standing, all must hit in the kill area.

kerryman12

I got a set of shooting stick following advise from the father in law. Initially I didnt use them but I have to say now that I find them great - a great shooting aid and a helpfull walking tool, especially in steep glens.

Regards

J. Ramone

From rimfire practice at home before the range test, I thought I wouldn't need sticks, however be prepared for wind gusts on the open expanse of the range. I failed the first attempt as I found the final standing shot impossible with the conditions on the day. It was a lesson that cost me 50 quid. This is the additional fee for the afternoon if you do not pass in the morning.

Traumadoc

Dont forget some sort of shooting mat, for the prone shooting.

jwshooter

J. Ramone wrote: »

From rimfire practice at home before the range test, I thought I wouldn't need sticks, however be prepared for wind gusts on the open expanse of the range. I failed the first attempt as I found the final standing shot impossible with the conditions on the day. It was a lesson that cost me 50 quid. This is the additional fee for the afternoon if you do not pass in the morning.

on the range in the midlands wind is going to be your big problem .and you have to take the shot ,as in hunting if im not steady i do not shoot .rested shots on the day for me were not a problem, the wind on the standing is the only shot that could do you .there is a nack it shooting standing shots i dont use sticks when stalking ,but shoot off hand at times .but use a set of three sticks on your day start off under your target bring the rifle slowly straight up through the target just under the kill point touch off the trigger and you will hit at mark above as the gun will move into it by the time everything happens .this works very but work on it

meathstevie

One thins I've experienced myself shooting foxes from a standing position is using your rifle sling to stabilise the rifle. Just "wrap" the sling around your supporting arm to pull the lot nice and thight in your shoulder. The difference between doing this and a normal "hand and arm" only hold is unreal.

This link offers a bit of an explanation on the idea
http://hunting.about.com/cs/holsterinfo/a/aa_slings.htm

Sikamick

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

if you go to woodies or any other garden centre
they sell green aluminium sticks with a plastic coating buy 3 of them and use a strong rubber band to keep them together
you can move the band down for the kneeling and then back up for the standing

_________________________________________________________________

Sika_Stalker's suggestion re the aluminum sticks; they are an excellent shooting aid.

With heavy growth on the mountain it isn't always easy to get a good natural rest, these sticks make a very stable shooting platform.

As for the HCAP deer management course I find it over priced and not up to the same standard as the one the Irish Deer Society use to run.

By supporting the HCAP we are leading ourselves into a situation where you will have to have the HCAP Course done to be able to deer stalk in the future (my opinion).

HCAP is primarily for Coillte lettings and should not be allowed to become the National Deer Stalking Course.

Recognition of other deerstalking Certified courses is essential for visitors to this country and for Irish deerstalkers that shoot open private farm land.

All the above is only my opinion and I would like to know how other deerstalkers feel about this.

Sikamick

Grizzly 45

As for the HCAP deer management course I find it over priced and not up to the same standard as the one the Irish Deer Society use to run.

By supporting the HCAP we are leading ourselves into a situation where you will have to have the HCAP Course done to be able to deer stalk in the future (my opinion).

HCAP is primarily for Coillte lettings and should not be allowed to become the National Deer Stalking Course.

Recognition of other deerstalking Certified courses is essential for visitors to this country and for Irish deerstalkers that shoot open private farm land.

All the above is only my opinion and I would like to know how other deerstalkers feel about this.

Sikamick

1+ Sikamick!
I have some very grave reservations about HCAP as an organisation and the course.Especially since according to the ISD article of Sept,that they want to push this course to cumpolsory for ALL stalkers by 2010!!!

1] Why wont it accept any other EU hunting liscenses??Which can be 100% more detailed thantheir course.I hate to say this but any EU hunter would be more qualified in all aspects of hunting than most of us here.
Have they not heard of the EU free interchange/compatability of documents????

2]Why has it got numerous bits and pieces from the German hunting course in it,that have little or no revelance to Irish shooting?If they are nicking pieces from other courses,why not accept then that EU liscenses /courses are just as valid ?
3] As a NGO who is it accountable to??Who sets the prices[increased in the last two years?].If I have a dispute with them on the course who does one appeal to??
4] Are they data protection act registered?
5]Why is this course set so high on theory pass 80%.The world std is 75%
6]Could they please explain why APPRENTLY on the first run,somthing like 75% of people failed on the theory test with a EXACT 30% fail mark???

Until this organisation becomes alot clearer and open and explains some points,I would run away from them.

hazza

I am really grateful for all your advice lads, many thanks.
Sikamick and Grizzly I'm not informed enough to answer your reservations regarding HCAP but I'm sure others here more experienced than I can comment.

However as a newcomer I took what was available, to help me up a pretty steep learning curve.

Vegeta

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

1+ Sikamick!
I have some very grave reservations about HCAP as an organisation and the course.Especially since according to the ISD article of Sept,that they want to push this course to cumpolsory for ALL stalkers by 2010!!!

Just to play Devils advocate here as I agree there should be choice in every market place. Again I agree there should be more options available to the budding deer stalkers.

Who is "they" in the above, I haven't read the issue of ISD, the people who run the HCAP, Coillte, the Irish Deer Society, NPWS?

1] Why wont it accept any other EU hunting liscenses??Which can be 100% more detailed thantheir course.I hate to say this but any EU hunter would be more qualified in all aspects of hunting than most of us here.
Have they not heard of the EU free interchange/compatability of documents????

It was my understanding that to hunt Coillte lands you need to complete the HCAP. SO its hardly fair on the HCAP people to say Coillte wont accept anything other than a HCAP. That's a Coillte policy after all

2]Why has it got numerous bits and pieces from the German hunting course in it,that have little or no revelance to Irish shooting?If they are nicking pieces from other courses,why not accept then that EU liscenses /courses are just as valid ?

Again I don't see the sense in this, surely its Coillte who should be accepting the European licenses.

Are you suggesting one should be given a HCAP because they have a European hunting license or that Coillte should accept European licenses to hunt on their land?

3] As a NGO who is it accountable to??Who sets the prices[increased in the last two years?].If I have a dispute with them on the course who does one appeal to??
4] Are they data protection act registered?

Don't have much to say here on these points

5]Why is this course set so high on theory pass 80%.The world std is 75%
6]Could they please explain why APPRENTLY on the first run,somthing like 75% of people failed on the theory test with a EXACT 30% fail mark???

Again I don't have much to say here

Until this organisation becomes alot clearer and open and explains some points,I would run away from them.

Finally as I said already I agree there should be more choice for shooters.

Does anyone have issue with the actual course content. Does it cover too much, too little etc etc

Is the practical too easy, hard?

jwshooter

coillte will accept the english DMQ level one ,from any one in the world other than a irish man .i have the DMQ level one and two done ,but coillte will not recongnize it.but my scotish friend that done the same course as me on the same week and it was a week ,they will accept his .the hcap was a good idea gone bad ..where is all the money going and how much do these guys get paid .i was waiting a year on my cert .

Sikamick

From Deer Alliance website.

For residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer on Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their tender.

All persons (licensees and nominated hunters) applying for a deer hunting permit for Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2010 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their application for such permits.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.


Sikamick

jwshooter

Sikamick wrote: »

From Deer Alliance website.

For residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer on Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their tender.

All persons (licensees and nominated hunters) applying for a deer hunting permit for Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2010 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their application for such permits.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.


Sikamick

Is that legal to accept there DMQ s and not mine ? .i spent time and money to do there courses

meathstevie

The Irish hunting scene could do with continental style licencing requirements. The Germans, French, Dutch, Belgians and probably a few more I don't know about all have a system in place that links a hunting licence to a very thorough theoretical and practical exam system that deals with legislation, firearms knowledge and maintenance, conservation and habitats, safety etc etc.. . I know it's a serious pain in the backside jumping the hoops and cramming the knowledge but in the long run it leads to more knowledgeable hunters which means better hunters.

An added benefit is that in most of these countries your firearms licence and hunting licence are one and the same. You don't need a seperate firearms licence for every gun or change of guns. Once you have your hunting licence you can freely buy and trade in hunting arms on the condition that you register all changes with the local police or townhall.

Grizzly 45

Trouble is MS,who is going to do a four year theoretical,practical and oral assesment with inbuilt work for all of the above and then pay appx 20/25 K Euros to get a reserve and place in a consortium?The Continent is a different story to Ireland.I am not saying that there shouldn't be a liscense system here.
But what has my dander up is [1] the non accountability of this organisation.[2] The irrevelance of certain materials on this course that seems to be there to "beef up" this whole thing,which could be done almost in a 48 hour intensive course[3] The Money spin here.£5 Euros for a book,100 Euros for a written test,part 1 another 100 euros for the practical side.The practical /or theoritical test has a "sell by date" on it.[Like most gyps here in Ireland].
All in all,I cant see why this course cant concentrate more on the shooting side of the course,which is more important IMO.

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

Is that legal to accept there DMQ s and not mine ? .i spent time and money to do there courses

Why did you do that course? if it was to hunt in Scotland then you obviously felt it was worth the effort and expense. Consequently you can't expect to suddenly take advantage of it here when that was never your intention in the first place.

From Coillte's point of view, they would expect a very small number of foreign registered shooters to be getting deer rights here and as such would feel that there would be very little overhead relatively speaking in adminstering the system for non-Irish shooters. If Irish shooters were to be afforded the same leeway, the overhead in checking their qualifications abroad would be much higher.

And why not have a local system in place? If you say every other country has one, then why should we be piggybacking on theirs? It would also mean a much higher cost per entrant for Irish shooters who did not have a foreign competency if the numbers were reduced by those with foreign qualifications.

Just another way of looking at it.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[1] the non accountability of this organisation.

In what way are they non-accountable? The HCAP is run by the Deer Alliance which is in turn made up of the Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, The Wicklow Deer Management and Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. All of these have memberships that they are accountable to.

[2] The irrevelance of certain materials on this course that seems to be there to "beef up" this whole thing,which could be done almost in a 48 hour intensive course

There are other courses that run for longer and have more 'padding'. Are they not equally as bad?

[3] The Money spin here.£5 Euros for a book,100 Euros for a written test,part 1 another 100 euros for the practical side.The practical /or theoritical test has a "sell by date" on it.[Like most gyps here in Ireland].

€5 for any book is cheap. When was the last time you were in a book shop? As for the course fees, you have to appreciate that a venue has to be paid for (including the range), the tutors have to be paid and the money goes back into the sport anyway.

All in all,I cant see why this course cant concentrate more on the shooting side of the course,which is more important IMO.

I'd certainly agree with that. A little more on firearms safety wouldn't go amiss either. We've had people turn up at our range to set their sights with rifles that had full mags and one up the spout. Needless to say their feet didn't touch the ground on the way out the door.

Sikamick

The book is 32 euro plus postage.

Note below it was Coillte that pushed for this, it was not as the results of the deer groups coming together. The Irish Deer Society had a perfectly acceptable course which was even accepted in the UK and still is to this day.

________________________________________________________________

The Deer Alliance was formed in 2003 in response to Coillte Teoranta’s decision to seek a system of independent certification for persons hunting wild deer on Coillte forest property. The Alliance comprises the four leading Irish deer organisations – The Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, Wicklow Deer Management & Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. These four organisations accepted the challenge to come up with a formula for a credible and independent assessment and certification model early in 2003. There followed almost a year of comparative study and assessment of different models used nationally and internationally, culminating in the decision to adopt the system of assessment now represented by the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme – or HCAP.

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick, we're way off topic here, so I'm moving all the representation posts over to their own thread so that the HCAP discussion can continue in here.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Sicamick, we're way off topic here, so I'm moving all the representation posts over to their own thread so that the HCAP discussion can continue in here.

___________________________________________________________________


Off track a bit but

Sparks in respect the name is Sikamick not Sicamick, I am sure a lot of people are sic a mick but I'm not going away until the truth comes out and our club gets Justice


Sikamick

Grizzly 45

[

quote=rrpc;57353144]In what way are they non-accountable? The HCAP is run by the Deer Alliance which is in turn made up of the Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, The Wicklow Deer Management and Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. All of these have memberships that they are accountable to.

Are any of these groups Govt appointed bodies?Have they signed up to Data protection or freedom of information acts?Reason I am asking this ;is it is somtimes the only way to get information out of Govt bodies,and this is somtimes a neat way of avoiding having to answer awkward questions around here.

There are other courses that run for longer and have more 'padding'. Are they not equally as bad?

Indeed,there is around here in Ireland.And you have to ask WHY?? Cut out the BS and just do a course revelant to the matter in hand and stop wasting peoples time and money.Get this entire course streamlined into 48/72 hours or a weekend from start to finish.Not a dragged out procedure,wher if you dont do this within 6 months you have to resit the theory.That smells of money spinning,and bad organisation on the course.

€5 for any book is cheap.

Typo error on my part:o

As for the course fees, you have to appreciate that a venue has to be paid for (including the range), the tutors have to be paid and the money goes back into the sport anyway.

How much exactly does go into the sport???How much do the examiners get paid??How much is the range rental??

I'd certainly agree with that. A little more on firearms safety wouldn't go amiss either. We've had people turn up at our range to set their sights with rifles that had full mags and one up the spout. Needless to say their feet didn't touch the ground on the way out the door.

[/QUOTE]
Apart from blatant stupidity,which one really cant do much about!:rolleyes:
was thinking more along the lines of the US NRA hunter saftey course,which is a 24 hour course from start to finish and a walk through course with targets set up for shoot/no shoot etc.A bit more practical on the saftey,and less of the theory.

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks in respect the name is Sikamick not Sicamick

Sorry, typo. Corrected now.

Sika_Stalker

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[

Apart from blatant stupidity,which one really cant do much about!:rolleyes:
was thinking more along the lines of the US NRA hunter saftey course,which is a 24 hour course from start to finish and a walk through course with targets set up for shoot/no shoot etc.A bit more practical on the saftey,and less of the theory.

There still is a safty aspect to the HCAP albit not as much as the US NRA, but after you have finished the range test you are taken into a room and showen pictures or of deer and asked would you shoot at this animal and asked to explain why, Your also asked to remove a gun from a case and make it safe and hand it to the examiner.
OK it might not be as comprehensive as others but for what we do in ireland it adequate

Sikamick

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

There still is a safty aspect to the HCAP albit not as much as the US NRA, but after you have finished the range test you are taken into a room and showen pictures or of deer and asked would you shoot at this animal and asked to explain why, Your also asked to remove a gun from a case and make it safe and hand it to the examiner.
OK it might not be as comprehensive as others but for what we do in ireland it adequate

___________________________________________________________________

HCAP Deer Management Course

Sika_Stalker - Do they show you how to Gut/clean out a dead deer with a vet present who will explain how to look for disease in the deer.

If you look at the Irish Deer Society Syllabus it is much more detailed.

Unfortunately The Irish Deer Society don't run their course any more as far as I know, mainly because of Coillte insistence on the HCAP.


Sikamick

Jonty

Sika_Stalker wrote: »

Your also asked to remove a gun from a case and make it safe and hand it to the examiner.

Surely they don't advocate storing a rifle with its bolt and magazine??????

Vegeta

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Indeed,there is around here in Ireland.And you have to ask WHY?? Cut out the BS and just do a course revelant to the matter in hand and stop wasting peoples time and money.Get this entire course streamlined into 48/72 hours or a weekend from start to finish.

That would be a right laugh actually, going away for a weekend to do it. Only thing is that it might make it more expensive if you have to stay overnight in a different county and buy food for 2 days AND your instructors might have to sacrifice a night of their own time which they would have to be paid for. Cant see that being cheaper. Definitely more time efficient though

Also there needs to be a written exam, other wise you could just sit in lectures with your brain off for 2 days and still get a cert saying you are a knowledgeable chap on deer when you've learned nothing.

Grizzly 45

Vegeta wrote: »

That would be a right laugh actually, going away for a weekend to do it. Only thing is that it might make it more expensive if you have to stay overnight in a different county and buy food for 2 days AND your instructors might have to sacrifice a night of their own time which they would have to be paid for. Cant see that being cheaper. Definitely more time efficient though

Also there needs to be a written exam, other wise you could just sit in lectures with your brain off for 2 days and still get a cert saying you are a knowledgeable chap on deer when you've learned nothing.

Dunno Veg,
I mean I did two round trips to Midlands on two consecutive mornings/PMs to do my IPSA liscense.Could have stayed over,but then again,is it within the wit of mere men to do 3 courses per annum in each province of Ireland,with a range day in a local range??It is not as if we are a really vast country either.
On learning and exams.Realistically how much do you remember and use of ,say your leaving cert in day to day life??Not very much if anything.Will you remember in six weeks time the name of the digestive process of Dama Dama for example???This is what I mean by padding.Very good knowledge to a zooologist say,but does it really hep you as a hunter to be able to explain the mating cycle of the warble fly larve and how it infects deer??Good to know,but what are you ?A vet?
You become a deer hunter,shooter pilot,and fisherman or whatever,y going out and doing.Bookwork and theory is fine,but it does not beat hands on experiance.So how long will all this knowledge stay with you 4/6 weeks?Now you are back to the real world with a load of academic that cost you time and money knowledge,and great difficulty IMO of using it in a practical sense.

Sparks

Bookwork and theory is fine,but it does not beat hands on experiance.

I'd have to call bullcrap on that one. The one thing I've seen consistently over all the years of teaching newbies to shoot in DURC and WTSC is that if you want them to learn something, you teach it to them *off* the range, not on it. Otherwise they get all tangled up in trying to simultaenously learn and do. And that's true of everything else as well - just look at flying (since you mentioned it). You do not learn to fly in a plane, you learn to fly in a classroom on the ground. That's where you learn about weather and radio procedure and stall recovery and engine management and flight planning and fuel flow and all the myriad things you need to know to fly the aircraft. The actual physical skill of piloting is only a part of it, and if you think it's the only part that matters, you'll be dead inside of a year. In cases of pilot error, the pilots don't crash because of a lack of skill at pointing an aircraft, they crash because of the stuff you learn in a classroom on the ground not being well known enough.

Grizzly 45

[

just look at flying (since you mentioned it). You do not learn to fly in a plane, you learn to fly in a classroom on the ground. That's where you learn about weather and radio procedure and stall recovery and engine management and flight planning and fuel flow and all the myriad things you need to know to fly the aircraft. The actual physical skill of piloting is only a part of it, and if you think it's the only part that matters, you'll be dead inside of a year. In cases of pilot error, the pilots don't crash because of a lack of skill at pointing an aircraft, they crash because of the stuff you learn in a classroom on the ground not being well known enough.

[/QUOTE]

Errrr...NO Sparks! As somone who went thru the US FAA pilots courses frm zero hours to Commerical[or would have if the school hadnt gone bankrupt]. We did the following;4hours of theory,and then f4 hours of flight instruction per day six days per week.Reason,It is easier to remember the THEORY when you put it into PRACTISE within a 24 hour period.[This is going by numerous psyhologists,educators,etc of the USAF,Army etc].Sitting on the ground as I had to for 4weeks just learing it in a classroom and not putting it into practise,was very detrimental to my progress,as learning and not doing made no sense.And actually there is a LOT of things in flying you cannot learn sitting in a classroom or simulator,or know you can handle unless you are actually in a plane.Like engine out,spin recovery,flying under the hood,etc.
Pilot error,a my instructor said[ex WCO RAF].Is people not dealing with the little things and letting them become fatal.
Anyway,if you cant teach somne to shoot on a range,after explaining it to them,I would say there is somthing wrong somwhere.

jwshooter

rrpc wrote: »

Why did you do that course? if it was to hunt in Scotland then you obviously felt it was worth the effort and expense. Consequently you can't expect to suddenly take advantage of it here when that was never your intention in the first place.

From Coillte's point of view, they would expect a very small number of foreign registered shooters to be getting deer rights here and as such would feel that there would be very little overhead relatively speaking in adminstering the system for non-Irish shooters. If Irish shooters were to be afforded the same leeway, the overhead in checking their qualifications abroad would be much higher.

And why not have a local system in place? If you say every other country has one, then why should we be piggybacking on theirs? It would also mean a much higher cost per entrant for Irish shooters who did not have a foreign competency if the numbers were reduced by those with foreign qualifications.

Just another way of looking at it.

presumition is the mother of all **** ups ,you presume i done the course in scotland to hunt in scotland . i done the DMQ in wicklow about 10 years ago. with my scotish game keeper stalker friend also three npws randers done it with me two high up rangers , coillte were there to, also there was a top man in the IDS there ,wicklow deer group were also there among others ..the talk was this course was going to be the irish standard course back then.your imformation is wrong .any one in the world can take on a coillte lease also there is a lot of out of state stalkers hunting in ireland .i will spend oct taking some of them hunting,...the uk and european stalkers are far better trained than us .the DMQ is a weeks course not 50 questions in 10 minutes and looking at 3 pictures of deer on a laptop what a joke my mother could pass the range test .also have you done the hcap or DMQ and what did you think or learn from it ,after its knowledge we are looking for not opinions

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

prosumition is the mother of all **** ups ,

You are so right jw. I said if you did it. No presumption on my part.

jwshooter

rrpc wrote: »

You are so right jw. I said if you did it. No presumption on my part.

to hunt in scotland, end quote ,you never answered my question , have you done the hcap or DMQ and did you learn any thing from them .

Sikamick

Quote rrpc: And why not have a local system in place.

In respect we did have one , the only one for years when no one else was running a DMQ here in Ireland, it was run by the Irish Deer Society, the first group here to set one up, it was recognized by Coillte and Duchas at the time.

And I am sure it was the Irish Deer Society that pushed for more humane Calibers for deer hunting.

And we would still have it, had the The Irish Deer Society not bent to the whims of certain people within Coillte(My opinion).

The Certificates that people got through the IDS Course are not worth the paper they are written on, here in Ireland.
Sikamick

jwshooter

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote rrpc: And why not have a local system in place.

In respect we did have one , the only one for years when no one else was running a DMQ here in Ireland, it was run by the Irish Deer Society, the first group here to set one up, it was recognized by Coillte and Duchas at the time.

And I am sure it was the Irish Deer Society that pushed for more humane Calibers for deer hunting.

And we would still have it, had the The Irish Deer Society not bent to the whims of certain people within Coillte.

Sikamick

sika time for bed , but like most things in ireland there is more than one deer society in ireland get them to agree ya wright ,the problem with the one you are talking about is the ones giving the coures have no training we have to look at europe and follow there mark

rrpc

jwshooter wrote: »

to hunt in scotland, end quote ,you never answered my question , have you done the hcap or DMQ and did you learn any thing from them .

To be honest jw, I didn't see a question in your post.

Having read through it again, twice. I eventually found the question. A question mark would have helped!

I haven't sat the hcap because I don't shoot deer. I did sit through a presentation on it at the FCP conference and had a flick through of the manual as well.

That doesn't make me an expert, but it doesn't mean I can't ask questions of those complaining about it either.

On a more general note and this is really where I'm coming from: Would it not be better to direct your questions/gripes to the Deer Alliance or one of it's constituent bodies? I'm sure they'd be happy to take any suggestions on board. From what I remember of the presentation they will be revising the manual some time in the future.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

On a more general note and this is really where I'm coming from: Would it not be better to direct your questions/gripes to the Deer Alliance or one of it's constituent bodies? I'm sure they'd be happy to take any suggestions on board. From what I remember of the presentation they will be revising the manual some time in the future.

___________________________________________________________________

rrpc, one question that was put to them (Coillte) was would they recognize other established Deer Management courses, two to be specific, The Irish Deer Society and the UK DMQ 1 & 2, much more comprehensive courses and long established.

You have seen what jwshooter has said about his certification from UK DMQ, if your an Irish Citizen they wont and this also applies to the IDS course.

The Certificates that people got through the IDS Course is not worth the paper they are written on.


From Deer Alliance website.

For residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer on Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their tender.

All persons (licensees and nominated hunters) applying for a deer hunting permit for Coillte lands on, or after the 1st of January 2010 must have satisfactorily completed The Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme and provide evidence of this when making their application for such permits.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.(This could not be deemed to be a fair way to treat Irish Stalkers.

Maybe this is a case that should be put be put before JSI.



Sikamick

Sikamick

jwshooter would you be kind enough to explain what the DMQ 1 and specifically
DMQ 2 involves.




Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

___________________________________________________________________

rrpc, one question that was put to them (Coillte) was would they recognize other established Deer Management courses, two to be specific, The Irish Deer Society and the UK DMQ 1 & 2, much more comprehensive courses and long established.

First of all the Irish Deer Society has signed up to the HCAP, so whatever about the status or effectiveness of any previous course they may have run they obviously have dropped it in favour of the HCAP.

You have seen what jwshooter has said about his certification from UK DMQ, if your an Irish Citizen they wont and this also applies to the IDS course.

The Certificates that people got through the IDS Course is not worth the paper they are written on.

These queries should be best directed to the Deer Alliance, I have already suggested some reasons why the situation is as it is with regard to foreign qualificatons. Here are some more that come to mind:

• Overall numbers aren't that high, so allowing a number of courses will impact on all of them and make them more expensive.
• A single standard is easier to control and police thus keeping costs down.
• Coillte are a semi-state body; they have the right to make the rules where their lands are involved.
• Four different deer stalking and conservation bodies were involved in the HCAP, that's a pretty democratic situation. (up until I was at that presentation I hadn't realised there were so many )
• Obviously recognition had to be given to external courses to allow for tourist shooting which impacts our economy. Allowing for recognition of those qualifications for Irish shooters would confuse matters and adversely impact the courses run here.
• Tourist shooting by its nature is seasonal, short term and transient. Whatever the numbers,they would not be as high on an ongoing basis as local shooting.
• We have single standards for many different areas: Driving tests, weights and measures and teaching to name but a few. We have now also got a standard for sports coaching administered by the NCTC, so a single standard to shoot deer on state lands is hardly surprising.

For non- residents of the Republic of Ireland:

All non-Irish residents tendering for a licence to hunt wild deer, or applying for a deer stalking permit on Coillte lands, on or after the 1st of January 2008 must have satisfactorily completed the Irish Hunter Competence Assessment Programme or a similar, approved, certified hunting competence assessment and provide evidence of this when making their application for such a licence or permit.(This could not be deemed to be a fair way to treat Irish Stalkers.

That depends entirely on your point of view. If you are one of the people who has taken an external course, obviously you will feel hard done by. On the other hand if you have to take a course for the first time, you would probably prefer to do it here. For someone who has complained bitterly about rules being broken and who has advocated a very strict regime of rule enforcement, you don't appear to be very consistent.

Grizzly 45

And then isnt this where this falls down?
If HCAP /Coilte is saying they will accept a simmilar approved course and evidence thereof;Why then wont they accept the UK DMQ???

Methinks,simmilar means in their books "Irish run course"
Of which there is none other as HCAP/Coilte have created a monopoly situation.Coilte only accepts HCAP.HCAP is the only one allowed to teach the course.Very naughty under EU law BTW!

On that point,our firearms/hunting liscensing system is accepted around the EU,[considerd by most as a bit of a joke].Yet if an Irish shooter is able to hunt as a guest of a European hunter in State forests around Europe,without any need of further qualifications.Can we not extend the same courtsey?

Also, it is the height of discrimination IMO to say that if Pat Murphy went to a European country,for what ever reason ,and did their hunting course/liscense which anywhere is 1000% more difficult than here,that Coilte/Hcap wont accept it because he is an Irish national???

Well and good if Coilte/HCAP want to keep this money spinner to themselves and mug those who want this.
BUT I DO resent then the fact that HCAP is now eyeing up everyone who deer hunts for this monopolistic,no accountability to anyone,IMO gyp of a course.Do what you want on your own lands Coilte,but not all of Ireland,it's forrests or it's deer belong to Coilte!

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And then isnt this where this falls down?
If HCAP /Coilte is saying they will accept a simmilar approved course and evidence thereof;Why then wont they accept the UK DMQ???

They will, from UK hunters only. It's pretty similar to a UK citizen being allowed to drive here on their UK licence until they move here and are then required to get the Irish driving licence, or a UK driver being allowed to drive here on their UK plates, but when they become resident are required to rereg their car to the Irish system. It's vice versa in the UK as well.

Methinks,simmilar means in their books "Irish run course"
Of which there is none other as HCAP/Coilte have created a monopoly situation.Coilte only accepts HCAP.HCAP is the only one allowed to teach the course.Very naughty under EU law BTW!

It's actually only the latter case that is uncomeptitve. The ECDL is a case in point, you have to do a course as an instructor and as an instructor centre to give the course, but then anyone can give it. Are you sure that anybody else actually wants to give the HCAP course other than HCAP themselves?

On that point,our firearms/hunting liscensing system is accepted around the EU,[considerd by most as a bit of a joke].Yet if an Irish shooter is able to hunt as a guest of a European hunter in State forests around Europe,without any need of further qualifications.Can we not extend the same courtsey?

Actually our licence is not accepted in the rest of Europe, in fact that whole area is a mess because the EFP is supposed to be the standard and different countries have different attitudes to it (us included). So in Italy, all you need is your EFP, in Ireland you needthe EFP and an Irish licence, in the UK you may or may not need the EFP (they're ambivalent about it) but you do need a permit from the local constabulary to shoot in their district. Finally we are accepting foreign qualifications for deer hunting, just not from Irish residents.

Also, it is the height of discrimination IMO to say that if Pat Murphy went to a European country,for what ever reason ,and did their hunting course/liscense which anywhere is 1000% more difficult than here,that Coilte/Hcap wont accept it because he is an Irish national???

See above about driving licences.

Well and good if Coilte/HCAP want to keep this money spinner to themselves and mug those who want this.
BUT I DO resent then the fact that HCAP is now eyeing up everyone who deer hunts for this monopolistic,no accountability to anyone,IMO gyp of a course.Do what you want on your own lands Coilte,but not all of Ireland,it's forrests or it's deer belong to Coilte!

But that's not Coillte's initiative and therefore they can't be blamed for a possible requirement in other areas for the HCAP. IMO this will be a licensing issue and the requirement will be for those seeking a deer hunting permit and therefore a full bore licence for deer hunting to have done a suitable course. The HCAP being state approved would seem to be an obvious choice.

I'm being devils advocate here Grizzly, I don't see the point of having a myriad of courses floating around giving any fly by night merchant the right to cash in on a requirement to have done a course with an inevitable fall off in standards.

Sure if the HCAP is not good enough, then put in a proposal to the Deer Alliance to have it improved. As I said earlier, I believe it's constantly under review.

There are a great many courses out there, quite a few in shooting related disciplines that are run on a correspondence basis which to my mind is a recipe for disaster. There's no real attempt to ensure that people have to be rigorously tested before they get a qualification and standards will inevitably drop. It's a bit like the spam you get in your inbox offering you degrees for money!

Where courses are concerned, I'm always more impressed by fail rates than pass rates because that means its not being done for purely monetary reasons.

rrpc

On earlier comments about costs and where the money is going, the following which is online at http://deeralliance.blogspot.com/ might help cast some light.

The Deer Alliance came into being in 2001, in response to Coillte Teoranta’s imminent requirement for independent hunter competence assessment (see previous postings). Between 2001 and 2004 the Deer Alliance Development Committee, comprised of representatives of participating bodies, examined alternative hunter training and competence assessment models including those previously available in Ireland and Britain, together with other European and international models. During this period all expenses were met individually by the participating organisations and/or nominated representatives themselves.

The Hunter Competence Assessment Programme 2005 – 2010 (HCAP) launched in 2005 after four years of deliberations and which included publication of the Deer Alliance Stalker Training Manual, remains a voluntary non-profitmaking exercise, with direct expenses funded by revenues from assessment fees and Manual sales. The initial cost of producing the Manual, which was substantial, was funded from grant aid received from Coillte Teoranta, National Parks & Wildlife Service, Forest Service (Department of Agriculture) and the participating deer organisations.

Ongoing costs include secretarial and administrative costs, contribution to expenses incurred by volunteers assisting in HCAP MCQs and Range Tests, and promotional costs. Revenues are in general managed to achieve at best a break-even situation, with any surpluses arising from income over expenditure going towards general promotion of the HCAP project. Accounts are currently audited by Michael Ryan & Associates, Chartered Secretary & Accountants, Rathdrum, Co. Wicklow, to whom the Deer Alliance HCAP Assessment Committee is indebted for attention to services required.

There's more, including accounts for the previous three to four years, so you can see where your money is going.