UCD security guards

Redrover1999

Does anybody know why there are so many security guards outside the library at night lurking around in groups?


It's a bit sh!t having power-tripping security guards ready to order you around, it's suposed to be university, not a nightclub?


What is the point of them?

D500B

yeah there is loads. I presume it is so that people never even get a chance to step out of line. Probably as a result of the "trouble" in res last year. Lets face it if there catered for large crowd in the pub in the first place nothing would have happened.
I can imagine the coversation among the bosses:

we can either set up extra bars on busy days, rack in the cash and keep everyone happy or we can spend loads of money of security and stop people doing anything

33% God

What are they stopping people from doing. So far the only thing they've stopped me doing is drinking outside (I was carrying a can from a house party back to my own apartment) and all they made me do was down in and throw it away. It makes sense, the last thing we want is huge parties under the bridges in Belgrove or something (no matter how awesome that sounds):p
I'd rather encounter them than an RA who may be liable to give you a fine, take your student card, or some other bull****.

bnt

It's a "Health & Safety" thing. I have a Society function next week where we will be limited to one glass of wine per person. Any more, and UCD wants the society to pay for security guards.

Your Man

there seems to be loads more than last year.

33% God wrote: »

I'd rather encounter them than an RA who may be liable to give you a fine, take your student card, or some other bull****.

i thought they could take your student card? and on another point what happens if they do take your student card?

scop

Never give your student card. Just say you are not a student here, and they'll tell you to leave.

I'm sure I've made my feelings on this issue known before, but they've turned the place into what nobody thought was possible...even more timid and boring.

ChocolateSauce

Just ignore them. At the end of the day their job is to protect you, not penalise you (even if this isn't how they act), so if you act as though they don't exist you'll have a more enjoyable time. They're not allowed to bust your chops unless you're breaking the rules.

Tayto2000

Last year the SU and student papers were giving out about the lack of security around the place... be careful what you ask for.

Red Alert

If you're not blatently breaking the rules I'm sure they'll leave you alone. I never had any serious hassle from any members of security in over six years... little bit of cop on necessary people!

Breezer

Interesting articles in the Observer this week on this, it seems a good few people have been having problems with them. They are certainly a lot more noticeable than the old ones but I seen any hassle myself so far.

D500B

Breezer wrote: »

Interesting articles in the Observer this week on this, it seems a good few people have been having problems with them. They are certainly a lot more noticeable than the old ones but I seen any hassle myself so far.

I've seen them becoming very violent if they are drunkenly taunted. It's not really on - and its certainly not how the security in trinity act who seem to be much more professional - like they're actually are trained how to deal with drunken students (which lets face it is pretty much the only thing college seem to care about)

Tayto2000

The observer article was essentially a transcript of conjecture by the SU president who incidentally seems pretty misinformed if he thinks the safety office have anything to do with security... And not a single example in the whole article, just vague generalisation.

Far as I can see, the new guys are operating zero tolerance on drinking, the old crew were a bit more Laissez-faire. Seems like this is coming as a bit of a shock to some...

Time Magazine

D500B wrote: »

the security in trinity act who seem to be much more professional

I always thought the security in Trinity were **** (though looking back I really did do things that were out of order: do people really need to start playing IRA on the cricket pitch at 11pm?) but they were far less off an imposition than the ones I've met in UCD.

I think the problem isn't that they're visible, it's that they're intimidating.

Riamfada

Having a look at the website these guys see themselves as mussel for hire. Even their logo is intimidating. There are much better companies out there and I had no problems with ISS. It amazes me how UCD can get simple things so wrong.

Anyway if the thinking is that if these guys throw shapes, square up to students and roam around in packs that it will keep the student body in line? I'd imagine anamosity will grow and there will be more confrontation.

UCD Security Management Policy = FAIL

What you “say” with your body language is sometimes louder and clearer than what you say with your words. It is a key component of communication, and positive body language will show you are confident, competent, professional and caring. - Pulse Website

scop

^Thats pretty much it. There is clearly a lot of animosity being generated, and that tends to encourage, rather than eliminate confrontation. I'm glad students have been complaining at the very least. Like the other guy I've rarely had trouble with campus security, but this new crew just plain reek of dodgy bouncers moonlighting. Something nasty is going to come out of all this.

Loco

Was just about to start a thread when I noticed this one.

My girlfriend has recently started a masters in UCD. She has a degree from UCC.

She went out of her student accommodation for a cigarette, holding a glass of wine and a apparently nasty polish security guard confronted her and her friend, took her student ID and she had to pay a €100 fine.

She has never been in any trouble, and didn't know there was strict rules in place so is going to appeal this.

Why is there such overzealous security? I never had problems walking through UCC with drink, and the few times in the past I visited friends in UCD I did not have problems either.

Your Man

what happens if they do take your student card wand whats the likelihood of a fine?

Tayto2000

Firstly, be careful what you say on a public board like this.

Second, a disciplinary means a visit to see the VP for students Martin Butler and probably a fine based on the experiences of others here...

cjcork1

...........

Stepherunie

There's a campus wide policy of no open containers of alcohol outside. The only exception to this rule as far as I'm aware is the pit outside the forum bar.

Closed containers are fine.

anonymous_joe

I remember the old days when security would make you down open cans.

In fairness I remember the huge ructions back in the day when some lads I knew got in ridiculous amounts of trouble in the accommadation for some parties they had. Clearly they've decided on a vastly increased security presence to frighten the bejesus out of the lickle 'uns.

I know if I was a new kid in UCD I'd be fupping terrified of some of the security lads you see wandering around.

Red Alert

Stepherunie wrote: »

There's a campus wide policy of no open containers of alcohol outside. The only exception to this rule as far as I'm aware is the pit outside the forum bar.

Closed containers are fine.

Residences are a different matter in some ways, I do feel sorry for the girl in the top post on this page, possibly some kind of a reasonable compromise would be in order there.

P_1

Out of interest what can they do if you refuse to hand over your student ID?

testybits

pithater1 wrote: »

Out of interest what can they do if you refuse to hand over your student ID?

They can call the gardaí if you don't hand it over. If you don't have a student card you're not a student of UCD and are therefore tresspassing on private property. I've seen people threatened with that line of action before.

Breezer

Loco wrote: »

She went out of her student accommodation for a cigarette, holding a glass of wine and a apparently nasty polish security guard confronted her and her friend, took her student ID and she had to pay a €100 fine.

Absolutely ridiculous. Policy or no policy, if she was only standing smoking a cigarette outside what is effectively her own home he could have simply asked her to bring the wine back inside. Then if she started causing a fuss he could have taken the steps he did. Common sense never hurt anyone.

Stabshauptmann

testybits wrote: »

They can call the gardaí if you don't hand it over. If you don't have a student card you're not a student of UCD and are therefore tresspassing on private property. I've seen people threatened with that line of action before.

Not exactly.

The security staff have the same rights as the owner of the property i.e. if you are not a student they can ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave then you are trespassing and they can call the gardai.

If you are a student but dont happen to have your student card (remember they have no rights to detain or search you) there is sweet f.a they can do.

Tayto2000

Not much use if you are living in a residence like the OP though... And although there's a lot of people here, UCD can still be a pretty small place... What are the chances of being snagged going to class or similar the next day?

Not correct on the student card either I'm afraid. In the first place, having one does not give any entitlement to be on private property and secondly, saying 'I'm a student here' but refusing to show ID of any sort is going to lead to being treated as a non-student i.e. asked to leave -> Gardai called.

Dr Strange

As a UCD student you are obliged to carry your UCD student card with you at all times according to Student Policy and Code of Conduct. You are also obliged to produce it for any member of staff when requested to do so. Failure to do so can result in disciplinary action.

Stabshauptmann

Tayto2000 wrote: »

Not much use if you are living in a residence like the OP though...

Yes it is. Walk back inside the building without saying a word. they cant legally block your way or follow you.

And although there's a lot of people here, UCD can still be a pretty small place... What are the chances of being snagged going to class or similar the next day?

Sure they could just wait outside your apartment till the next time you come up, but would they? At some stage common sense is going to come into play.

Not correct on the student card either I'm afraid. In the first place, having one does not give any entitlement to be on private property

there is implied access to ucd (open gates, public bus network etc), I dont have to be a student to be in UCD, it is not trespassing. It becomes trespassing when I refuse to leave when asked - unless I have a right to be there eg a UCD student.

and secondly, saying 'I'm a student here' but refusing to show ID of any sort is going to lead to being treated as a non-student i.e. asked to leave -> Gardai called.

Thats usually the easiest thing to do. Leave and come back.

Preusse wrote: »

As a UCD student you are obliged to carry your UCD student card with you at all times according to Student Policy and Code of Conduct. You are also obliged to produce it for any member of staff when requested to do so. Failure to do so can result in disciplinary action.

You are not required to carry ID at all times as far as I can see http://www.ucd.ie/registry/academicsecretariat/student_code.pdf

Neither are you required to produce your student card unless the staff member has a reasonable need to establish your identity eg you are using a UCD facility, or contravening the student code. Security has no power for example to conduct random ID checks, you have every right to be on UCD grounds, student or not.

Dr Strange

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

You are not required to carry ID at all times and you are not required to produce your student card unless the staff member has a reasonable need to establish your identity eg you are using a UCD facility, or contravening the student code. Security has no power for example to conduct random ID checks, you have every right to be on UCD grounds, student or not.

I am afraid you are wrong there. This is the exact text of the regulation. It is not restricted to certain times or reasonable grounds. Any staff member can ask you to produce your Student card at any time. Refusal to do so is in breach of regulations and policies. Text:

UCD Student ID Cards
Students must carry their student card with them at all times. They
must produce it for a member of staff when requested to do so.

EDIT: To be found in the UCD Student Guide and Diary 2008/2009, Regulations and Policies, p 125.

http://www.ucd.ie/incomingstudents/UCD_Student_Guide_Diary_2008.pdf

Stabshauptmann

Ah ok, thanks for your edit.

Dr Strange

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Ah ok, thanks for your edit.

Have a look at my link page 125. It's the third paragraph on that page. It can also be found on the Incoming students 2008 page on the UCD site.

Dr Strange

Jeez edits are done quicker here than I can follow in my old days.

Stabshauptmann

28.81mb, this is taking a while...

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Have a look at my link page 125. It's the third paragraph on that page. It can also be found on the Incoming students 2008 page on the UCD site.

ok. It does say that, but from a legal perspective, thats not a policy document nor does it claim to be so. The page is there to help explain/simplify UCD policies [edit] - so what you quoted isnt "the exact text of the regulation".

It does not state that in any policies or on the card itself that it must be carried at all times and produced without reason. And unless one was an incoming student for 2008 one could not be reasonable expected to have seen that document.

As such that source has little to no weight.


UCD disciplinary proceedings are internal matters governed by the universities own rules, but you can engage a solicitor and the principles that are applied in Irish legal matters are given due weight.

Whether one must carry your student card is not unequivocally stated in any UCD policy Ive seen, and failure to carry / produce one is not listed as a Breach of Discipline. I dont think UCD would able to successfully discipline you for failing to carry / produce it

Raphael

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I remember the old days when security would make you down open cans.

I've seen the new lads do that.

Dr Strange

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

ok. It does say that, but from a legal perspective, thats not a policy document nor does it claim to be so. The page is there to help explain/simplify UCD policies.

It does not state that in any policies or on the card itself that it must be carried at all times and produced without reason. And unless one was an incoming student for 2008 one could not be reasonable expected to have seen that document.

As such that source has little to no weight.

UCD disciplinary proceedings are internal matters governed by the universities own rules, but you can engage a solicitor and the principles that are applied in Irish legal matters are given due weight.

Whether one must carry your student card is not unequivocally stated in any UCD policy Ive seen, and failure to carry / produce one is not listed as a Breach of Discipline. I dont think UCD would able to successfully discipline you for failing to carry / produce it

Well, it's not only for 2008 students. Each consecutive policies and regulations document over the years had this phrase in it. If a student doesn't read it it's not the universities problem. And if you want to argue your point with the help of a solicitor when stopped and found without student ID it is also up to you. Fact is, it's stated clearly in regulations and policies. You either abide by it or you don't and I don't see any reason why anyone would willingly breach this regulation bar they are on some kind fight the power crusade. If you actively look for trouble you'll get trouble.

If I was a staff member I would take this policy word for word and if I request to see the student card of a student during my working hours I expect them to produce it. Otherwise I would consider, depending on the situation, further measures to deal with the situation.

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Well, it's not only for 2008 students.

On the UCD website its under "Incoming Students 08". Not every student was provided a copy of it.
These are facts.

Each consecutive policies and regulations document over the years had this phrase in it.

can you please be so helpful as to show me where?

If a student doesn't read it it's not the universities problem.

Its about whats reasonably expected. If I dont read the code of conduct or the alcohol policy thats not UCD's problem. I know they exist, I know where they are and Ive agreed to be bound by them.
Should a post grad be reasonably expected to read the freshers guide? No.

And if you want to argue your point with the help of a solicitor when stopped and found without student ID it is also up to you. Fact is, it's stated clearly in regulations and policies.

Where?!
Ive linked to the 2008/2009 student code - its not there.

You either abide by it or you don't and I don't see any reason why anyone would willingly breach this regulation bar they are on some kind fight the power crusade. If you actively look for trouble you'll get trouble.

Stick around this board, Im vary rarely in favour of the little man. The truth is that people have a tendency to abuse their power and UCD has tried to strong arm me a couple of times. They never succeded because I know my rights

As a staff member I will take this policy word for word and if I request to see the student card of a student during my working hours I expect them to produce it. Otherwise I will consider, depending on the situation, further measures to deal with the situation.

You dont understand what a policy is. What you quoted was not a policy. This is a policy http://www.ucd.ie/registry/academicsecretariat/student_code.pdf. The above is enforceable. An simplification given by someone in marketing or the student desk is not.

Dr Strange

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

can you please be so helpful as to show me where?

Old editions are no longer available I'm afraid. As I have read them year after year I know the phrase has been in there. It has been discussed ad nauseam by staff members.

As for the rest, I don't have the time to reply to all this. However, I am certain that many staff members take that phrase word for word.

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Old editions are no longer available I'm afraid. As I have read them year after year I know the phrase has been in there. It has been discussed ad nauseam by staff members.

As for the rest, I don't have the time to reply to all this. However, I am certain that many staff members take that phrase word for word.

They can do so to their hearts content, but I know from experience they cant enforce it.

If Im in a lecture theatre and Im causing noise the lecture can ask for my card, if I dont provide it thats a problem and action can be taken. (though if I dont have it I can produce it at a later date).

Now if Im in coppers on Friday and I see a cute girl I know from UCD and I demand her student card as I am staff - Im a tutor in a different course than her for arguments sake, and she refuses she is well within her rights.

Dr Strange

Is coppers on the campus? I don't know this place. I am talking about on-campus policies. Whatever you do outside has nothing to do with your student card unless you misuse it. In any case, I wouldn't tell any student to disregard the policies no matter in what document form is provided. It is better to be on the safe side and to be honest, I cannot see a reason for not carrying your student card on campus. Students always bang on about their rights but with rights come duties and responsibilities. Anyone can have a good time while being a student without having to resort to criminal activity or destructive behaviour (e.g. damaging student residences/university property).

Stabshauptmann

Preusse wrote: »

Is coppers on the campus? I don't know this place. I am talking about on-campus policies. Whatever you do outside has nothing to do with your student card unless you misuse it.

The inconsistencies make my eyes bleed.
Either it has no bearing or it doesnt, you cant pix and mix to suit your wants and thats why its important people know their rights.

I was giving you an example of how you "understanding" of the policy wouldnt work.

In any case, I wouldn't tell any student to disregard the policies no matter in what document form is provided.

Neither would I. Im telling them, and you, to know what they are.
You have no idea what the policy is , or even what a policy is.

It is better to be on the safe side and to be honest, I cannot see a reason for not carrying your student card on campus.

I would/have/and would encourge people not to surrender your student card to anyone likely to abuse their "power".

Students always bang on about their rights but with rights come duties and responsibilities. Anyone can have a good time while being a student without having to resort to criminal activity or destructive behaviour (e.g. damaging student residences/university property).

Agreed. Its quid pro quo.

Dr Strange

As you said further up you seem to have a problem with UCD in general. That's certainly your own problem and colours your argument.

As for inconsistencies. You provide an example of a situation in a place located outside UCD. What does that have to do with the on-campus policy? Nothing at all. I am afraid you have not understood the meaning of on-campus regulations. As you said you couldn't find anything in the Students Code. As I said, it is not in the Code but in Regulations and Policies.

For me the sentence is clear:

UCD Student ID Cards
Students must carry their student card with them at all times. They
must produce it for a member of staff when requested to do so.

However, I am not going to discuss this further as your tone of argument seems to grow quite agressive.

Stabshauptmann

Not aggressive, just frustrated with you inability to comprehend what a policy is.

I have no problem with UCD in general, but the problems of general muppets in society is also a problem in UCD

Tayto2000

Hoi Kaptain... slight misundertanding here I think. My point is they want to establish your identity by looking at your student card... All the other stuff is irrelevant...

Here's the current policy on cards from the registration website:

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/studentdesk/stucard%20info.htm

Notice the bit about 'remains property of'? As a staff member, you _could_ demand a UCD student card from someone you know is a UCD student in Coppers... It would make you an **hole and probably have other unpleasant (official?) consequences for you down the line, but you could do it. If you signed up at registration, you agreed to abide by all the UCD rules and regs, no matter how outdated or unfair they are...

I'm guessing your experiences on the student card thing dates back to the glory days of the first society to use the secret lake to it's full potential

Stabshauptmann

They're terms and conditions, not a policy, but we wont split hairs.
However, as before with the calender, they are not the terms and conditions but an explanation of the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions are on the back of your student card, and they only say when proof of identity is required. required and requested are not the same thing.

I suspect that the policies, terms and conditions etc are written or at least reviewed by legal eagles. These you must obey. The calender, website etc have no weight.

It is my understanding that nodoby, not even the gardaí or the minister for justice himself can force you to produce ID without cause.


edit: Note any opinions expressed in this post are just that, opinion, and not intended as legal advice

Tayto2000

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

They're terms and conditions, not a policy, but we wont split hairs.
However, as before with the calender, they are not the terms and conditions but an explanation* of the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions are on the back of your student card, and they only say when proof of identity is required. required and requested are not the same thing.

I suspect that the policies, terms and conditions etc are written or at least reviewed by legal eagles. These you must obey. The calender, website etc have no weight.

It is my understanding that nodoby, not even the gardaí or the minister for justice himself can force you to produce ID without cause.

*Not legally binding, and not the sole interpretation possible. If all regulations where unambiguous I might be out of a job

None of it is legally binding! Point is, it's agreed to at registration. Any consequences arising would also be those agreed and signed up to ie disciplinary hearings etc. All this stuff about the gardai is irrelevant, no-one is going to arrest you for refusing to show a student card, but you _can_ be subjected to the UCD procedures which you agreed to by signing up for and obtaining that card.

For instance, what happens if you're recognised going into a lecture the following day after claiming not to be a student the night before? Gardai? No, but you would be liable to UCDs own disciplinary procedures...









... BTW, have you considered representing people at disciplinaries? You'd get plenty of business if the observer is to be believed...

Stabshauptmann

The crux of the matter is this.

UCD has powers/rights. One of them is that they can ask for your student card. This power can be delegated to inter alia pulse security. That power can only be exercised for bone fide reasons eg you are drinking in front of the arts block.

If there is no legitimate reason for you to need to prove you identity then you dont need to produce ID. It is not a breach of the student code and you cannot be disciplined.

You'll find that obeying the ucd student code and the terms and conditions attached to the student card are legally binding, you are party to a contract one of the conditions of which is obeying the above.

*Again, not legal advice

graduate

Presumably if you are unwilling to show you are a student, by producing your student card or some other reasonable measure, then the security can escort you to the gate.

Redrover1999

Has anybody thought of taking this issue up via the student union?

There is definitely a need for security but they have to realise it is a campus, and that they can't throw their weight around.

Stabshauptmann

graduate wrote: »

Presumably if you are unwilling to show you are a student, by producing your student card or some other reasonable measure, then the security can escort you to the gate.

Yes. If you cant prove you're a student they may ask you to leave, if you refuse they can use reasonable force or call the gardaí. Reasonable force in this case probably wouldnt extend beyond barring your way and gently "herding" you in my opinion