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Cowen claims aid to buyers will not inflate house prices

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24

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    #32
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Right. And if interest rates rise half a percent, or if she gets pregnant, what will you sacrifice then?
    There's plenty of room for a kid or interest rate rises or in the figures I gave. But if you want to factor kids into it go ahead. It still does not mean that a person earning 37K cannot afford the mortgage.
    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    What affordability debate? If you are content not to get value for money, then sure, buy in a collapsing market. A box of matches might be affordable at €50, but I'd be an idiot to pay it.
    So affordabilty is not an issue with you? so we are agreed that someone earning 37K can afford a 300K mortgage? Thats good, I'm glad we're agreed on that because that is my only gripe on this thread. Whether its value for money or better to wait for prices to drop further is not something I want to debate.


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    #33
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    20goto10 wrote: »
    So affordabilty is not an issue with you? so we are agreed that someone earning 37K can afford a 300K mortgage? Thats good, I'm glad we're agreed on that because that is my only gripe on this thread. Whether its value for money or better to wait for prices to drop further is not something I want to debate.
    Somebody doing that is living right on the ragged edge, and is only a couple of missed paycheques away from ruin. Can it be done? Yes. Is it a really, really bad idea? Most definetely yes.


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    #34
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Somebody doing that is living right on the ragged edge, and is only a couple of missed paycheques away from ruin. Can it be done? Yes. Is it a really, really bad idea? Most definetely yes.
    Living off your expenses maybe. Working off my expenses there's plenty of room for maneuverability and saving for a rainy day. Factor in pay rises and it should only take 1 year before you're at a very comfortable level and getting increasingly more comfortable as the years roll by. Thats life.


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    #35
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    20goto10 wrote: »
    Living off your expenses maybe. Working off my expenses there's plenty of room for maneuverability and saving for a rainy day. Factor in pay rises and it should only take 1 year before you're at a very comfortable level and getting increasingly more comfortable as the years roll by. Thats life.
    Heh. To be honest we have no idea what your expenses are, or whether or not you are who you say you are. This being the internet, you could represent any one of a number of people. However, even taking it at face value, the simple, crystal clear fact of the matter is that given your sums, you would essentially be pulling down less than social welfare. Thats not a lifestyle anyone sane should aspire to.

    As for pay rises, good luck with that in the current economic climate. But as you say, thats life.


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    #36
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Heh. To be honest we have no idea what your expenses are
    wtf?
    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    , or whether or not you are who you say you are. This being the internet, you could represent any one of a number of people.
    Again, wtf?
    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    However, even taking it at face value, the simple, crystal clear fact of the matter is that given your sums, you would essentially be pulling down less than social welfare. Thats not a lifestyle anyone sane should aspire to.
    Someone on the dole earns more that 37K? Seriously? I don't know about that one now :rolleyes:

    You seem very bitter about something. Good luck in your endeavor.


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    #37
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    20goto10 wrote: »
    This is a common agrument which quite simply is not an argument at all. Someone earning 37K has a monthly take home pay of €2,580. Therefore they can afford a €1700 mortgage and have room for increases (Did you include the €169 interest relief in that?). And thats based on a 30 year mortgage. Base your figures on a 35 year mortgage and there's even more room for increases in rates. You don't really have an argument here. I know people are going to say the left over €850 a month is not enough to live off but I disagree. Are you going to be able to afford all the luxuries Irish people have come to expect over the past 10 years? No. But you can afford a mortgage and a decent life.

    So you advocate a person on 37k forking out 66% of their net wage before any expenses on a 300k mortgage which is about 8 times their salary!

    Welcome to sub-prime Ireland.

    The 169 tax relief is not guaranteed, its based on how much interest in paid.

    And by the way, 37k is not an average. If you had trawled through previous threads on this, we found out that 67% of the workforce earn UNDER 35k a year.


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    #38
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    20goto10 wrote: »
    Someone on the dole earns more that 37K? Seriously? I don't know about that one now :rolleyes:
    They would probably be in a better position than someone up to their necks in a mortgage.

    I mean, they can always get off the dole.
    20goto10 wrote: »
    You seem very bitter about something. Good luck in your endeavor.
    Actually it will be the extremely large amounts of tax that my endeavours pay towards the running of the country that will be used to bail out overextended idiots, whether I want them to or not, so yes, you might say I am a bit irritated about that.


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    #39
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    gurramok wrote: »
    So you advocate a person on 37k forking out 66% of their net wage before any expenses on a 300k mortgage which is about 8 times their salary!

    Welcome to sub-prime Ireland.

    The 169 tax relief is not guaranteed, its based on how much interest in paid.

    And by the way, 37k is not an average. If you had trawled through previous threads on this, we found out that 67% of the workforce earn UNDER 35k a year.
    It wasn't me who said 37K was the average. But yes my figures are based on 37K and my own personal expenses. I could afford a 300K mortgage on a salary of 37K. If you can't then thats a pity for you. Good luck to you all.


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    #40
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    20goto10 wrote: »
    It wasn't me who said 37K was the average. But yes my figures are based on 37K and my own personal expenses. I could afford a 300K mortgage on a salary of 37K. If you can't then thats a pity for you. Good luck to you all.

    At least we know your position on this, its more than sub-prime!

    Hands up who will fork out 2/3 of their monthly salary on a mortgage 8 times their income? :D


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    #41
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    gurramok wrote: »
    If you had trawled through previous threads on this.....
    Thanks for the advice. I now know who I'm arguing with, or more accurately I now know who is arguing with me and why.


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    When people suggest you can spend that much on a mortgage and have as much as you get on the dole left over to spend I really have to question their motivations for posting.

    Are you party hacks?
    Are you developers?
    Are you bankers?
    Are you a property specu-vestor?

    Why on earth would you cheer lead this madness otherwise:rolleyes:

    :mad:


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    #43
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    People like 20got10 need to be protected from themselves. Thats what the banks do by not lending someboy 60-70% of their take home on a mortgage.


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    #44
    ronbyrne2005
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭ronbyrne2005


    No bank or financial expert would recommend a repayment of 66% of net income on a mortgage. They recomend a high of 38% of groos income I think. Who wants to be eating sh1t quality food for years, not go on holidays/trips, not go out socialising etc for years to own a rapidly depreciating asset? Then you have management fees, house insurance, repairs and maintenence and other costs of ownership that your landlord pays if you rent.
    If you have to spend 66% of your income on a mortgage you have too large a mortgage for someone near average industrial wage unless you are content sitting at home eating tins of beans for years and years with the value of your property collapsing around ya.


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    #45
    KhanTheMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭KhanTheMan


    20goto10 wrote: »
    LEt me showe you the maths.

    1 person earning 37K -> take home pay of €2580 p.m
    I live off €800 p.m for 2 people. So €400 p.m for 1 person on day to day expenditure.
    A mortgage of 1700 - 169 TRS = mortage of €1531

    €2580 - €1531 = €1049 spending money. To do what you please. Save for a rainy day, have a baby, repair your car, whatever. Need more on your day to day expenditure? Theres room for that too.

    I suppose for the children of the celtic tiger that is measly pocket money :rolleyes: How much is a bag of cocaine these days?

    Thread is a lost cause. Anyone can do their own maths for their own personal finances and if they can't someone can do it for them.

    I can see where you're coming from but do you not think its a little tight even if affordable.

    Now if we were to take into account that the day of single people buying houses on their own as the norm are gone forever and that the large majority of house buyers are couples these days then your argument would work out very well.

    Say a couple on 37k each get a mortgage of 300k then they could live off one salary by your estimation and save the rest or spend as they like. Seems a lot more feasable as an argument for affordability to me. And quite a comfortable situation for them as opposed to scraping by on the one salary. They would be taking home over €5000 a month and get double the mortgage interest relief.


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    #46
    flatpack
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭flatpack


    i m not backing up here but
    i m a living example of 37k, honestly its not easy to manage every thing but my mortgage is not 300k its 275 for 35 years

    Mortgage 1190
    Mortgage Protection 33/month
    Personal Loan 508.6
    ESB Bill average 50/month (i only use energy savers no monkey business)
    GAS average 60/month
    HFC Credit 57/month (ending very soon)
    HFC Loan 162/month (already saved enough to close it in next two months)
    Credit Card Bill 200/month
    Bin Charges 20/month
    Travel Charges 150/month
    Broadband 37.99/month
    Car Expense 125/months (i drive small polo just for shopping)

    in total its 2533
    i had house insurance but then i stop i might get insurance back but not yet as i m waiting for HFC loan to pay off.
    i dont smoke & dont drink i know some one might think what is the point to buy house but i m happy i have my own place dont want to live in box and pay some one else's mortgage and i have happy life.

    (All figures are from updated from my account if any one need any prof i can take screen shots) then i m left with 466 to live. and i took some money from my credit card coz i lost my contract and had no choice to save myself and house for full three months and i m still on contract and its very risky but life its self is very risky.
    i can not say anything more here but good luck for those who are on waiting list for price drop...
    (sorry for my bad english)


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    #47
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    flatpack wrote: »
    i m not backing up here but
    i m a living example of 37k, honestly its not easy to manage every thing but my mortgage is not 300k its 275 for 35 years

    Mortgage 1190
    Mortgage Protection 33/month
    Personal Loan 508.6
    ESB Bill average 50/month (i only use energy savers no monkey business)
    GAS average 60/month
    HFC Credit 57/month (ending very soon)
    HFC Loan 162/month (already saved enough to close it in next two months)
    Credit Card Bill 200/month
    Bin Charges 20/month
    Travel Charges 150/month
    Broadband 37.99/month
    Car Expense 125/months (i drive small polo just for shopping)

    in total its 2533
    i had house insurance but then i stop i might get insurance back but not yet as i m waiting for HFC loan to pay off.
    i dont smoke & dont drink i know some one might think what is the point to buy house but i m happy i have my own place dont want to live in box and pay some one else's mortgage and i have happy life.

    (All figures are from updated from my account if any one need any prof i can take screen shots) then i m left with 466 to live. and i took some money from my credit card coz i lost my contract and had no choice to save myself and house for full three months and i m still on contract and its very risky but life its self is very risky.
    i can not say anything more here but good luck for those who are on waiting list for price drop...
    (sorry for my bad english)

    You spend €2150 a month on credit?


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    #48
    punchestown
    Registered Users Posts: 660 ✭✭✭punchestown


    Are you the same flatpack who posted the following recently?

    'well i lost my job in march and i already spend all my saving in these two months so i have only few hundereds in my account and i can not afford to pay even one payment untill i get some job but what should i say to bank i have mortgage with tsb do u think they can give me break for a while? and what i simpley say i can not afford? and would they take home and sell it and if it goes for less then i have to pay balance?'

    Jesus wept!


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    #49
    ronbyrne2005
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭ronbyrne2005


    punchestown wrote: »
    Are you the same flatpack who posted the following recently?

    'well i lost my job in march and i already spend all my saving in these two months so i have only few hundereds in my account and i can not afford to pay even one payment untill i get some job but what should i say to bank i have mortgage with tsb do u think they can give me break for a while? and what i simpley say i can not afford? and would they take home and sell it and if it goes for less then i have to pay balance?'

    Jesus wept!
    :pac:


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    #50
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    but i m happy i have my own place dont want to live in box and pay some one else's mortgage and i have happy life.
    jesus wept indeed. So you were a whisker away from losing your home, bankruptcy and all over financial disaster. Yeah you're the smart one for not paying somebody elses mortgage.


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    #51
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    What exactly do you mean when you say Sub-prime? You call it several times.

    Dictionary.com provides the following definitions for subprime:

    1. being of less than top quality.

    2. being below a prime rate.

    Ok, pedantics. I had meant sub-prime style.

    What the poster is endorsing is a 66% outgoings on a mortgage with the remaining 33% to live on.
    Then we had the extraordinary similarity of the 33%(800) to the monthy dole money(800). It's like a ninja (no income no job) scenario but instead its the borrower working as a slave to the bank for 30 years.


    flatpack, those non-mortgage loans are killing you. You do not say what interest rate you are on and term for that mortgage.

    Ask yourself one thing, are you going to be struggling for the whole 35yr term with a living on bread and water scenario?


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    #52
    flatpack
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭flatpack


    yes i m the same guy and i decided to fight back but look another 3 months passed and i already saved 6k to pay off that loan. and i m happy i kept my house and i saved it. now i m have few other problems but i think time can heal any pain just you need to be bit patience
    punchestown wrote: »
    Are you the same flatpack who posted the following recently?


    Jesus wept!


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    #53
    punchestown
    Registered Users Posts: 660 ✭✭✭punchestown


    struggling from month to month living on the breadline indefinitely does just not appeal to me and I doubt many others. Im sorry that the predicament you are in is such that you would consider sending the keys of your property to the bank and fleeing the country a solution. We need a sense of reality to return to society.


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    #54
    flatpack
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭flatpack


    well to live month to month would end soon as i saved enough to pay those loan i took to pay mortgage and i m expecting getting rid one big chunk of monthly outgoing by end of this year, so all i can say this is life.

    punchestown wrote: »
    struggling from month to month living on the breadline indefinitely does just not appeal to me and I doubt many others. Im sorry that the predicament you are in is such that you would consider sending the keys of your property to the bank and fleeing the country a solution. We need a sense of reality to return to society.


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    #55
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    flatpack wrote: »
    well to live month to month would end soon as i saved enough to pay those loan i took to pay mortgage and i m expecting getting rid one big chunk of monthly outgoing by end of this year, so all i can say this is life.
    Your standard of living must be incredibly low. Slightly above that of a homeless person.


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    #56
    flatpack
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭flatpack


    lol nop,
    thats not true, homeless person can not have life style i live. 466 euro to spend on kitchen as i gave all my outgoing including my internet, bin charges. so 466 is going straight in my pocket all i have to spend on kitchen and for single person 466 is enough,
    Climate Expert wrote: »
    Your standard of living must be incredibly low. Slightly above that of a homeless person.


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    #57
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    gurramok wrote: »
    Ok, pedantics. I had meant sub-prime style.

    What the poster is endorsing is a 66% outgoings on a mortgage with the remaining 33% to live on.
    Then we had the extraordinary similarity of the 33%(800) to the monthy dole money(800). It's like a ninja (no income no job) scenario but instead its the borrower working as a slave to the bank for 30 years.


    flatpack, those non-mortgage loans are killing you. You do not say what interest rate you are on and term for that mortgage.

    Ask yourself one thing, are you going to be struggling for the whole 35yr term with a living on bread and water scenario?
    If you want to live off the dole rather than stand on your own 2 feet and buy a house then thats your business. God help our economy if the majority of the country share this attitude.

    You won't be living off bread and water. And not only that but as you porgress through your career and life the payments get easier. If they don't, well then you've biten off more than you can chew and maybe you should consider this before you take the plunge. Like I say, you should be secure in your job and secure in the knowledge that you have a good career prospect before buying a home no matter what the price. If your mortgage is only 200K and you lose your job you're in as much sh!te as you would be with a 300K mortgage.

    The simple fact is, if you don't like don't buy it. but don't tell me its "unaffordable" when it clearly is. Tough yes, but affordable.


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    #58
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    punchestown wrote: »
    struggling from month to month living on the breadline indefinitely does just not appeal to me and I doubt many others.
    There are plenty out there who do not struggle. Myself for one. I did at first but now its a breeze and I'm so glad I've got the home I have now and am not stuck in the rental trap. For every negative comment on here there is an opposing positive comment. The main thing people are worried about is what if you lose your job. Well having a mortgage of 200K as opposed to 300K ain't going to help you there and hey what if you get a promotion or do what normal people do and move around and take a healthy pay rise in the process. This was my scenario. Started off even more on the breadline than someone on 37K with a 300K mortgage. I was safe in the knowledge I had a good job and it was a matter of time before things became comfortable (and so were my bank evidently) and thats what someone looking for this kind of mortgage should be. If you're not, stay away. And quit moaning cause we're not all in dead end jobs.

    I cannot believe the greediness which still exists out there. That over €1000 a month cash in your pocket is not enough to save for a rainy day or to treat yourself to a few beers etc etc is just ludicrous. By all means hold out for a better deal if you can. But lets call a spade a spade here and own up to what you're really arguing here. Its not that its not affordable its that its not affordable enough for you to live the celtic tiger cocaine snorting lifestyle you've been so accustomed to over the past while.


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    #59
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    What is the rental trap?


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    #60
    bangersandmash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭bangersandmash


    Climate Expert wrote: »
    What is the rental trap?
    It's a pejorative term which seems to have become popular among estate agents in the UK - an example. It is used to refer to those who want to buy but cannot, and who face a rental market where rent is increasing and supply is decreasing. Anyone familiar with the state of the rental market in Ireland will know that it's not remotely relevant.


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    #61
    Climate Expert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭Climate Expert


    Lotte Dunford, 26, a lawyer, bought a one-bed flat in Angel, London, in April last year
    There needs to be more help for first-time buyers: my parents gave me half my deposit, but not everyone is that lucky. I couldn't have bought without them. In some ways, I regret buying. It's really stretching me: my spending patterns have changed and I can't live as extravagantly as my friends who rent.
    Marcus Fairhurst, 27, works in recruitment. Bought a three-bed terrace in Hackney with David Hartley 26, a media consultant and John Arnold, 27, an engineer
    We met at university, and always planned to buy a house together, so we arranged a shared mortgage through www.sharetobuy.com. I can't imagine it would be right for everybody – perhaps it's unusual, but we've never had a cross word between us.
    Amy McCollam, 30, an administrator, is moving in to a three-bed flat in Reading
    We've bought through a shared-ownership scheme, which I qualified for because I'm registered with social housing. We own half the property and the rest is rented to us. It has worked out really well. In the long term, we would like to own it outright, but currently it suits where we are financially.
    Kato Harris, 28, a teacher, bought a one-bed flat in Lee, London, September 2006
    I had a 103 per cent mortgage because everyone told me that if I didn't buy now, I would never get on the property ladder. But because Lee is cheap, I feel it'll be one of the last places to be hit by the slump.

    Some telling stuff there.


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