Economic Crises

Trev M

Havent popped on this board in a while .... Im dissappointed and astounded:eek:.

Not one conspiracy theory in ralation to US FED propping up all these Corporate monsters. I mean the whole world in hock to the fed? Im so dissappointed that I think Im gonna have to go off and extrapolate a theory myself .:rolleyes:

Anyway if anyone has any out there theories Id love to hear em for the craic...slow day here in work :rolleyes:

Stay well freaks.

Mahatma coat

oh tis a mental situation, Fed proppin up private companies and lettin others go to the wall

things like AIG and countles other companies suddenly being 'revalued' people finaly startin to ask questions that we really should have been wonderin years ago.

the problem seems to be that the situation has been let get wildly out of hand and now taxpayers are going tobear the brunt of 'not havin to bear the brunt' of this supposed crisis.

I await the Economist 'explanation' of these circumstances

Obama is gonna have one hell of a shtistorm on his hands when he takes over

Trev M

What we need here are wild radical postulations people.... You sir, are engaging in the mundane and middle of the road realm of economic analysis...I wont have it , I just wont, is this a newstalk forum ?:D

We need doomsday crises and speculation of NWO involvement, we need Jim Corr, we need babies being fed to the lizard people as fuel for the Large "Hardon":pac: Collider, mind control and manipulation of the masses through over the counter medications. We need extravagance, we need entertainment....this is a call to man your weapons of mass hysteria and deliver the most bizarre of theories ever....:p

Perhaps Im coiming across as insincere here but given most conspiracy theories tend to be unproven .... most people like to read them for their entertainment value.... Im saying lets go nuts here people

I think its all a plot to make the average joe poor , devalue the currency, promote hyper inflation, keep the people poor stupid and in fear and they'll be good little ants for the political ruling class elite and book burners like yer wan Palin. We'll all be livin Mad Max in three years fighting for gas and water.... the way nature intended...then come 2012 well, the hardon collider will open up a transdimensional time warp the ancetors of the Lizard poeple will emerge and a new dawn of econmic propsperity will evolve...or something.:cool:

DubTony

:D:D LMAO

Nice one Trev. I Guess it's a REAL slow day in work. I'd love to work with you on this one, but tbh, I not sure I can be arsed.

Mahatma coat

Trev M wrote: »

What we need here are wild radical postulations people.... You sir, are engaging in the mundane and middle of the road realm of economic analysis...I wont have it , I just wont, is this a newstalk forum ?:D

ahem, I think you will find that most economic analysis is just wild speculation from so called 'Experts'

We need doomsday crises and speculation of NWO involvement, we need Jim Corr, we need babies being fed to the lizard people as fuel for the Large "Hardon":pac: Collider, mind control and manipulation of the masses through over the counter medications. We need extravagance, we need entertainment....this is a call to man your weapons of mass hysteria and deliver the most bizarre of theories ever....:p

ah but Jim is a baby eatin Lizzzzzard disinfo agent

Perhaps Im coiming across as insincere here but given most conspiracy theories tend to be unproven .... most people like to read them for their entertainment value.... Im saying lets go nuts here people

many of us feel that way, on both sides, but there are a few wet blankets who try to ruin everything with their 'FACTS'

I think its all a plot to make the average joe poor , devalue the currency, promote hyper inflation, keep the people poor stupid and in fear and they'll be good little ants for the political ruling class elite and book burners like yer wan Palin. We'll all be livin Mad Max in three years fighting for gas and water.... the way nature intended...then come 2012 well, the hardon collider will open up a transdimensional time warp the ancetors of the Lizard poeple will emerge and a new dawn of econmic propsperity will evolve...or something.:cool:

yeah something like that alright, the shrewd investor at the moment should be stockpiling industrial products to make aluring 'postapocalyptic warrior woman' style clothing

also in the future we will all drive V8's cos ther'll be no need to worry about petrol prices when we are killin people and stealin their fuel anyway

Kama

Lord, its all so mundane!. All the makings of a global financial crash from a run on the shadow banking system cascading through the globalized economic system dropping us back to the 20's, with a accelerating global war against 'teh terraists', amid a resource crunch and environmental crises.

Honestly, we need more alien invasions and HAARP and a 2012 Eschaton pretty sharpish to stop us all dying of tedium...Interesting times my ass...

DubTony

Ok, lets just throw this out there.

Peter Sutherland (Bilderberg / Tri-Lateral Commission) is boss at Goldman Sachs who were in talks with AIG to loan them some of the $85billion or so they needed to stay afloat. I'd be of the opinion that the Fed stepped in to prop up AIG because Goldman Sachs wouldn't lend the money and so would see AIG go belly, deepen the crisis, so that a ............ aaaahhhh, I was right the first time. I can't be arsed.

Bring on the aliens.

mumhaabu

The majority of Americans are now living in the equivalent of Council Houses as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were nationalized as was AIG. Uncle Sam now sponsors Man Utd. Lol!

Marx & Stalin must be smiling down on what they would term the collapse of Capitalism when it is not. The whole thing must be a pony tail clad socialists wet dream! The best thing is the liberal left will suffer while over on "the dark side" us Right wing capitalists will get richer than before.

Mahatma coat

What I need to know tho is how do I get a government to prop up a failing industry that I have shafted of my own accord.

just to drag this back int the realm of 'reality' for a second

can anyone tell me where all the money went?

anyway, Lizzzards you say, feedin babies into the LHC, cool:cool: there are some particularly hideous babies on my street so if any NWO agents readin this want to swing by in a black van;) numbers 7 and 34:)

mumhaabu

Mahatma coat wrote: »

can anyone tell me where all the money went?

The money went nowhere it still exists just that it is now worth far less due to the fact that America has been conjuring up money out of thin air for years i.e. they are printing money to run the country. I blame the FIAT currency and the break with the Gold standard. There was a video a cartoon about it before called the truth about the money system or something it explains it quite well. America is ever so slowly becoming like Zimbabwe, its currency is devalued and the State is taking control of more and more elements of peoples personal freedom and control of the economy with these recent Nationalizations.

America is on the slippery slope to Dictatorship with the NeoCons and Christian Evangelicals taking control. What will happen is that the United States will break up and more liberal states such as Maryland and California will secede and the Red-Blue divide will see two Americas. The South literally will rise again with Texas and Houston as its jewel. I'm not particullary mad as I believe in alot of the Neo Conservative ideals and it is high time somebody told the PC leftwing liberals where to go.

Alot of the personal freedom America once boasted is now defunct and ironically Ireland represented a good mirror of Manifest Destiny in recent years with good personal freedom bar a few areas and previously lower taxes and a good economy. I acredit this to the influence held by the Progressive Democrats and see it as a sad day for Irish politics if they are wound up. Ireland is now falling into the trap of Socialism and no longer has the American dream to look forward to.

Eastern Europe currently represents great personal freedom, low taxes and a highly knowledgeable skilled workforce and a high development index. The Czech Republic is the jewel in Eastern Europes crown as has the feel of Ireland before Fianna Fail threw it all away to the Unions. What you need is a mix of business oriented politics and male centered personal liberty with traditional family values and liberalism towards Moral (Hetero not Homo) issues. Hence the term Neo Liberal was born, wherby you are Maggie Thatcher and Ronnie Reagan economically and liberal morally but still get to praise god and oppose abortion. Hypocritical not one bit, Socialists and Liberals are hypocrites as they would become a laissze faire trillionaire in the morning if they were presented with the oppurtunity.

Mahatma coat

the money conjouring trick, bear in mind that the 'Economic Experts' on boards told us that it was all legit and above board a few months ago and that we were crazy for even suggesting that this could happen.

see the thing that I wonder about is that even tho the value of these companies has dropped massivley will the FEd still want repayment on the original values?

and ultimatley who is paying, and who paid the first time?


I want some explanations

Ibid/Antithetic/David MacWilliams/whatever you call yerself Oscar Et al

why so Silent?

Mahatma coat

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055170679&page=2

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055318072&page=5

some other threads on this topic, watch out for Ibids multipurpose diagram that explains everything away neatly:)

Time Magazine

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the money conjouring trick, bear in mind that the 'Economic Experts' on boards told us that it was all legit and above board a few months ago and that we were crazy for even suggesting that this could happen.

see the thing that I wonder about is that even tho the value of these companies has dropped massivley will the FEd still want repayment on the original values?

and ultimatley who is paying, and who paid the first time?


I want some explanations

Ibid/Antithetic/David MacWilliams/whatever you call yerself Oscar Et al

why so Silent?

Hai!

I'm silent because I'm busy at the moment. (Feck sake, I always seem busy.) Will do my best to get around to all this stuff and answer any questions you have in due course. Have a few points.

1. This mess is primarily cause by stupid banks lending money to credit-unworthy customers ("sub-prime") and those damn people taking money out they couldn't pay back;
2. This was a mistake that the companies are clearly paying for;
3. The Fed are intervening because a collapse would knock confidence further. This would have economic impacts as investment tails off, etc. This would lead to unemployment. They see it as a "least worst" scenario;
4. I never said nobody would go bust. In fact I said I wouldn't be surprised if banks did;
5. I'm still not all that interested in monetary economics

And please note the above are all verifiable facts; they're not expressions of my personal opinion on how things should be done. Now, a couple of personal things:

1. Instead of crying foul, I dare any of you to suggest alternative policy options.

2.

Conspiracy Theorist #1 wrote:

ahem, I think you will find that most economic analysis is just wild speculation from so called 'Experts'

I fucking love the irony of this being said on the Conspiracy Theory forum.

3. You speak of The Diagram with such disdain. What's your problem with it? Do you like inflation?

Time Magazine

Mahatma coat wrote: »

bear in mind that the 'Economic Experts' on boards told us that it was all legit and above board a few months ago and that we were crazy for even suggesting that this could happen.

David McWilliams wrote: »

Now of course sometimes the system fails. In fact don't be surprised if one Irish bank becomes illiquid over the next six months.

My quote is from two months ago, yours is from half an hour ago. Why are you lying?

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the money conjouring trick, bear in mind that the 'Economic Experts' on boards told us that it was all legit and above board a few months ago and that we were crazy for even suggesting that this could happen.

see the thing that I wonder about is that even tho the value of these companies has dropped massivley will the FEd still want repayment on the original values?

and ultimatley who is paying, and who paid the first time?


I want some explanation
Ibid/Antithetic/David MacWilliams/whatever you call yerself Oscar Et al

why so Silent?

Can you point to single post by Ibid/Antithetic/DmW/ or Oscar Bravo has claimed that "everything [That these named posters on] boards told us that it was all legit and above board a few months ago and that we were crazy for even suggesting that this could happen."

Really? Can you Mahatma or are you shoving words into other posters mouths?

mumhaabu wrote:

The money went nowhere it still exists just that it is now worth far less due to the fact that America has been conjuring up money out of thin air for years i.e. they are printing money to run the country. I blame the FIAT currency and the break with the Gold standard. There was a video a cartoon about it before called the truth about the money system or something it explains it quite well. America is ever so slowly becoming like Zimbabwe, its currency is devalued and the State is taking control of more and more elements of peoples personal freedom and control of the economy with these recent Nationalizations.

Really like Zimbabwe? In the USA the current rate of inflation is 5.27%. The Zimbabwe rate of inflation is running at 100000%. I think there's just a smidgen of hyperbola in your claim.

Look we've gone over and over things again. Abandoning The Gold Standard
was necessary. Gold is an abstract symbol of wealth. Furthermore as it stands the total amount of gold in the world is valued at around 4.5 trillion dollars. Less than the amount of currency currently in floatation in the USA. If we just used the gold standard then the value of the remaining gold in the world would skyrocket. Unfortunately we use gold in so many fields. The Biomedical industry use Gold for Arthritis and Anti Cancer drugs, as well as rapid testing for things like pregnancy. We use gold for Water Purification, Mercury Control, and Diesel Emission Control and for Fuel Cell Catalysis, one of our best hopes for an alternative to fossil fuels. Your computer's circuit boards are Electroplated with Gold. In short if you wanted to keep the gold standard you'd need to tie the amount of cash in the world to the worth of gold. And as a side effect there would be a constant incertanity in the cost of
items that use gold, that wee need and use day to day.

America is on the slippery slope to Dictatorship with the NeoCons and Christian Evangelicals taking control. What will happen is that the United States will break up and more liberal states such as Maryland and California will secede and the Red-Blue divide will see two Americas. The South literally will rise again with Texas and Houston as its jewel. I'm not particullary mad as I believe in alot of the Neo Conservative ideals and it is high time somebody told the PC leftwing liberals where to go.

Any evidence for this?

Alot of the personal freedom America once boasted is now defunct and ironically Ireland represented a good mirror of Manifest Destiny in recent years with good personal freedom bar a few areas and previously lower taxes and a good economy. I acredit this to the influence held by the Progressive Democrats and see it as a sad day for Irish politics if they are wound up. Ireland is now falling into the trap of Socialism and no longer has the American dream to look forward to.

We've got a good economy? Really looked at the papers recently?

Eastern Europe currently represents great personal freedom, low taxes and a highly knowledgeable skilled workforce and a high development index.

And deregulated industry without unions has lead to a vast chasm between the wealthy and working class.

The Czech Republic is the jewel in Eastern Europes crown as has the feel of Ireland before Fianna Fail threw it all away to the Unions.

Possibly the most idiotic thing that has ever been said on this forum. You really think the unions caused this recession.

We've had 15 years of massive economic growth. Yet at the same time have a appalling transport network and a barely functioning health service. Ireland under Fianna Fail was a ship on a riding global tide. Fianna Fail have squandered the greatest period of economic growth in our nations history.

What you need is a mix of business oriented politics and male centered personal liberty with traditional family values and liberalism towards Moral (Hetero not Homo) issues.

And you don't like the "NeoCons" while exposing your own homphobic bigotry. Tell me how is Ireland sliding towards "Homo issues"? And what exactly are "male centered personal liberties?""

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055170679&page=2

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055318072&page=5

some other threads on this topic, watch out for Ibids multipurpose diagram that explains everything away neatly:)

Can you point out where they said everything is "above board and legit".

People have been predicting this collapse for well over a year. Hell my wife demanded we sell our house last august, and we sold in February and got out by the skin of our teeth (we live in london).

For an example there's a poster on the Accommodation forum, you should check out. There's a guy who think's his house is worth Y, and the market says the house is worth X (Y is more than X) and he's trying to figure out a way to get Y for his X house. He doesn't seem to grasp that if you treat your house as investment, you have to understand that an investment can go down as well as up. For the past 18 years nearly everyone on these islands has assumed that the property they bought will of course be worth more in 12 months time. We've been living with this myth for years. But anyone who's studied beyond the cursory facts knows a bubble bursts. And we've had a bubble. A very big very long bubble. But it's a bubble that means people are viewing a property in mullingar as a suitable place to have when you work in Dublin. It's idiotic and insane, and the bubble existed because it made money for everyone. From home owners, to estate agents, to the government.

TO suggest that there is something wrong with the global market because of this crash is, as usual idiotic.

Getting outraged because people like David/Ibid/ explained how wrong your theories about the "banking and money conspiracy" were, doesn't mean they don't think there are massive flaws to the system.

Mahatma coat

1 alternative options, well my fave would be non intervention, let the thing run, lets have another great depression, thin out the herd a bit, start again with something new.

2 I'm glad you saw the Irony in my post, and hey CTer #1 eh surely that'll draw casey out again

3 ?????????????????? the diagram, my problem with it is how are the numbers generated, Rate of independence is a bit subjective of a concept dont ya think, and inflation rates fluctuate due to external forces too.


I'll deal with yer other points in a minute

Mahatma coat

Oscar - Creating money out of thin air is the job of banks. If they didn't do it, there would be a permanently fixed amount of money, which would make it an artificially scarce resource - not necessarily a good thing.

UCD Econ - He probably stopped posting in the thread because you don't have an open opinon (there HAS to be a conspiracy theory), nor do you understand anything he says because you've not even got basic economic knowledge. It is same as trying to explain banking and monetary theory to a dog. The dog just keeps barking at you.

It's a complicated field. Pick up a book rather than trying to insult those who are educated. It's obvious you've never studied economics.

Bonkey - If you don't know the answer, you're not really in a position to argue that the system is broken.

So...I would suggest that this is a question for those who are arguing that an obviously-functioning system should not be trusted.

IBid - Oh and your YouTube man's not an economist. He's wrong about the ability of interest rates to combat recession. The Fed are not "just printing money". He's just, well, wrong. You may have noticed that a lot of Irish people are going to New York because of the exchange rates. This "collapsing currency" he's scare-mongering about is attracting foreign money. He's wrong that you can't prevent a recession with monetary policy. I'm far more concerned about unemployment than short-term inflation. And I doubt you're arguing you want the market to regulate itself do you? He makes that point after nine minutes and is the opposite of what you seem to be advocating.


I Apologise to IBID/DmcW your responses were well thought out and fairly on the money

cept I think this last one will come back to bit you in the ass later

Trev M

Fascintaing stuff lads....more on the Homo conspiracy .... Thats sounding particularly mad:D

heheh Interesting opinions and questions , surely there's enough material in this to formulate a completely insane theory with which we can take the internet by storm with? Tony Im looking at you... Thread should be something along the lines of

"Anti American Homo Alien Lizards privitise profits and socialise losses , large hardons in Switzerland to blame , NWO deny responsibility"

oscarBravo

Trev M wrote: »

large hardons in Switzerland...

I know physics is sexy, but I didn't think it was that sexy... :eek:

bonkey

Mahatma coat wrote: »

can anyone tell me where all the money went?

Mostly to regular Joes, who borrowed the money to buy houses, then defaulted on those loans.

And you know where the money came from? Mostly from regular Joes, who put the money into pension plans, which are managed by large financial companies with the intention of making money by taking a slice of what they make for those regular Joes.

It would seem that you'd be happier if you couldn't save for your pension, and if the banks only loaned money to those who were a dead-cert to pay it back....the rich. It also seems that your basic complaint is that the government are bang out of order trying to prevent the economy from collapsing, trying to prevent the massive companies where the regular Joe's savings are directly and indirectly invested from collapsing, and from trying to keep the likes of the mortgagte companies who let the regular Joe buy his house afloat.

Yes...the financials ****ed up. No-one is seriously questioning that. However, the reality is that those who stand to lose most are the regular Joes...just as they'd be the ones worst off collectively if the system didn't exist in the first place.

Yes, there are some filty-rich millionaires who'll avoid losing millions because of this. There's also going to be millions of Americans who'll avoid losing as much as their entire life's savings as a result.

Which would you rather, Mahatma? That the government destroy the future of millions of regular people, or that they step in and save them by propping up the giant companies that those regular people have indirectly got their monies tied up in?

DubTony

Trev M wrote: »

"Anti American Homo Alien Lizards privitise profits and socialise losses , large hardons in Switzerland to blame , NWO deny responsibility"

oscarBravo wrote:

I know physics is sexy, but I didn't think it was that sexy...

:DLMAO:D:D

I have this crazy image in my head of a bunch of guys in white coats switching on their massive hardon collider and jumping around a lab flashing at each other ...... and it won't go away :D:D

Mahatma coat

Mostly to regular Joes, who borrowed the money to buy houses, then defaulted on those loans.

So we Repo those houses

And you know where the money came from? Mostly from regular Joes, who put the money into pension plans, which are managed by large financial companies with the intention of making money by taking a slice of what they make for those regular Joes.

Someone here said in an earlier thread 'No one ever lost money depositing it in a bank

It would seem that you'd be happier if you couldn't save for your pension,

this bit confuses me somewhat, could you clarify

and if the banks only loaned money to those who were a dead-cert to pay it back....the rich.

well there are supposed to be safeguards in place as you pointed out in a different thread to protect the banks against this

It also seems that your basic complaint is that the government are bang out of order trying to prevent the economy from collapsing, trying to prevent the massive companies where the regular Joe's savings are directly and indirectly invested from collapsing, and from trying to keep the likes of the mortgagte companies who let the regular Joe buy his house afloat.

so are you now saying people will lose their savings.

yes the Government & Fed & select Central Banks are bang out of order, they should let the thing collapse its time for the bubble to burst, pumping more money into it at thiws stage is only drawing the thing out and will make the collapse of the US Dollar worse as every extra dollar they inject devalues the ones already in circulation

Yes...the financials ****ed up. No-one is seriously questioning that. However, the reality is that those who stand to lose most are the regular Joes...just as they'd be the ones worst off collectively if the system didn't exist in the first place.

these are the people who will lose anyway, there is no point in trying to engineer a 'Soft Landing' its a boom and bust cycle this is the Bust stage

Yes, there are some filty-rich millionaires who'll avoid losing millions because of this. There's also going to be millions of Americans who'll avoid losing as much as their entire life's savings as a result.

I would be more worried if the filthy rich started goin to the wall, that'd be a sure sign that the world was Fukked , of course people are going to lose everything, these people have over extended themselves are in debt up to their eyes and if they couldnt see this coming over the last year then they deserve it

Which would you rather, Mahatma? That the government destroy the future of millions of regular people, or that they step in and save them by propping up the giant companies that those regular people have indirectly got their monies tied up in?

the regular people are screwed anyway, how many crises will it take for the system to eventualy fall over, it should be let die, and then from the ashes lets try something different this time

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

So we Repo those houses


Someone here said in an earlier thread 'No one ever lost money depositing it in a bank

Really? Who? When?

well there are supposed to be safeguards in place as you pointed out in a different thread to protect the banks against this

Mahatma you think there should be enough money in the world put aside to save every dollar in every bank? Do you even know of the concept of hedging?

so are you now saying people will lose their savings.

Did he ever say people wouldn't it?

yes the Government & Fed & select Central Banks are bang out of order, they should let the thing collapse its time for the bubble to burst, pumping more money into it at thiws stage is only drawing the thing out and will make the collapse of the US Dollar worse as every extra dollar they inject devalues the ones already in circulation

Perhaps, but economics like pretty much everything else is affected by politics, do you think any politic leader wants to look like Nero here?

these are the people who will lose anyway, there is no point in trying to engineer a 'Soft Landing' its a boom and bust cycle this is the Bust stage

Yup theres absolutely no point doing anything, like securing peoples life savings or making a few thousand peoples job safe in the wake in the crash, I cannot see a single reason for a politican to want to do this no siree bob.

I would be more worried if the filthy rich started goin to the wall, that'd be a sure sign that the world was Fukked

i'dbe more worried if the middle class were going to wall enmass, something nore likely than the filthy rich.

, of course people are going to lose everything, these people have over extended themselves are in debt up to their eyes and if they couldnt see this coming over the last year then they deserve it

Your cup of human kindness doth overflow.

the regular people are screwed anyway, how many crises will it take for the system to eventualy fall over, it should be let die, and then from the ashes lets try something different this time

Does sir have an alternative system he'd like to share with the rest of us? Something akin to bartering some pretty coloured shells?

Mahatma coat

Ibid wrote:

........Precisely. If I default on my potato loan, they're obligated to pay. They see that Mr. Oscar "Money Bags" Bravo has €100 in the bank. They also know there's exactly a 1 in 100 chance of someone defaulting on a loan (if you think the odds are higher, I can use algebra if you like). Thus they can offer credit facilities to the sum of €10,000 and, without charging any interest, break even. The leverage allowed is set by central banks and is very much on the safe side. Why? To avoid Northern Rock situation where Money Bags legs it to the bank to withdraw his money because he knows that nobody ever loses money by depositing it in the bank.

this is where it was said

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

this is where it was said

Mahatma, I think this is yet again one of those situations when you are being wilfully obtuse. You're taken what Ibid, who is clearly speaking metaphorically, describing the principle of economics and banking and you are applying his words literally.

It's intellectually dishonest and unprincipled.

Oh and I missed this bit

So we Repo those houses

You are a class act Mahatma, just casually suggesting "we" repossess the homes of people. Who's "We" mahatma, and where do "we" get the money to buy the houses people default to the banks. What are the banks going to do with these deprecating assets. Also considering that there 300,000 empty homes in Ireland
What exactly are "we" going to do with them?

Mahatma coat

Diogenes wrote: »

Really? Who? When?

see above

Mahatma you think there should be enough money in the world put aside to save every dollar in every bank? Do you even know of the concept of hedging?

every Dollar in every bank should be the same, dosent matter if its cash/card/digital, oh yeah forgot for a second the banks just made stuff out of thin air when times were good, now thats a correction in the markets value

Did he ever say people wouldn't it?

maybe not Bonkey directly

Perhaps, but economics like pretty much everything else is affected by politics, do you think any politic leader wants to look like Nero here?

yes and after a recession the nations will rally round strong leaders who promise them prosperity and pledge that this will never be allowed to happen again, a leader with a catchy slogan, howsabout, ome People, One Nation, One Leader ?

Yup theres absolutely no point doing anything, like securing peoples life savings or making a few thousand peoples job safe in the wake in the crash, I cannot see a single reason for a politican to want to do this no siree bob.

absolutely no point unless you decide to dig out every industry, so the bankers are going to the wall, what about Construction workers who wont have any new houses to build, what about the people who ran childcare centres for the couples that worked in finance and construction, what about the chick in the coffeshop on the corner who is laid off because trade has dropped, its stupid to think you can dig yer way out of a financial crisis by pouring more money int the problem

i'dbe more worried if the middle class were going to wall enmass, something nore likely than the filthy rich.

thats why I cited the example of the filthy rich

Your cup of human kindness doth overflow.

I find it hard to have sympathy for people who dug themselves into the problem blindly optimistic that this time it would be different, as is being said in many threads on many boards no one held a gun to their heads and said you must have a new BMW you must take 2 foreign holidays a year you must have a big screen tv go get a credit card an bury yerself in debt tis a great idea

Does sir have an alternative system he'd like to share with the rest of us? Something akin to bartering some pretty coloured shells?

well if you are willin to accept pretty coloured shells:)

yes I do have a few theories about how we can improve our chances of not gettin totaly shafted next time this happens, I'll flesh em out over the weekend, Hell I'll even open a new thread to discuss them.

you can start off by pointin out how our current system aint broke so theres no need to fix it

Mahatma coat

Diogenes wrote: »

Mahatma, I think this is yet again one of those situations when you are being wilfully obtuse. You're taken what Ibid, who is clearly speaking metaphorically, describing the principle of economics and banking and you are applying his words literally.

It's intellectually dishonest and unprincipled.

I'll wait for Ibid to confirm, but the sentence reads fairly straightforwardly to me.

but heres the next line from that post while we wait

Ibid wrote:

How many people can you name that have lost deposits in banking systems in the west? I know none.

How many people can you name that have successfully used the financial system to their gain? Every single person I know who's over 25 has.

does that still look like a metaphor??

Oh and I missed this bit



You are a class act Mahatma, just casually suggesting "we" repossess the homes of people. Who's "We" mahatma, and where do "we" get the money to buy the houses people default to the banks. What are the banks going to do with these deprecating assets. Also considering that there 300,000 empty homes in Ireland
What exactly are "we" going to do with them?

The banks would have the option after the houses were reposessed to hold on to them or to remortgage/rent them to the existing tennants at a more sensible price, or turf tennants that defaulted out on their asses and leave them to fends for themselves and resell/rent/redevelop the properties.

that seems to have been the intention of the Lizzzzzards in the banking industry all along anyway

bonkey

Mahatma coat wrote: »

So we Repo those houses

Absolutely. Thats what happens.

The problem is that when defaulting occurs on a large scale, then you start having banks who own an awful lot of repossessed houses, which are worth an awful lot less than what was handed out in loans for them and which they can't easily sell.

Someone here said in an earlier thread 'No one ever lost money depositing it in a bank

Generally speaking, thats true. Deposits are about as secure as you can get. When it comes to pensions and the likes, however, they're generally not as secure as your cash deposits. More to the point, what is likely to be secure there is the capital investment, not the interest gained.

this bit confuses me somewhat, could you clarify

Certainly.

You seem to view the entire financial industry as some sort of scam, run by the rich, for the rich, to create money for themselves, at the expense of the common man.

What you seem to overlook is that a lot of the money which is used in the financial markets is money which Regular Joes have entrusted to their financial managers..things like pension plans.

well there are supposed to be safeguards in place as you pointed out in a different thread to protect the banks against this

Yes...and there are safeguards. What we're seeing at present is an indication that many of the initial safeguards failed (a lesson we can learn from) but we're also seeing that the entire system isn't failing, because there are still safeguards to prevent that. One of those safeguards - perhaps the final one - is government intervention. Make no mistake...the government isn't just handing out money. It is loaning it, and companies who accept that help will be required to sell off assets over the coming years in order to pay it back.

So are you now saying people will lose their savings.

No...I'm saying that is what will happen if the Governments do not intervene to prevent an endemic collapse. I'm saying that will be the outcome of the solution you propose, with your notion that the governments should "let the thing collapse".

I also have a suspicion that you see this as somehow being an American problem...that its no skin off your nose if the US economy collapses, so therefore you can be somewhat unconcerned about the Regular American Joe losing his shirt as a result. Of course, the major European banks would also collapse along with them. So assuming you have savings somewhere....are you willing to risk seeing that money disappear rather than see government intervention to ensure it doesn't?

these are the people who will lose anyway, there is no point in trying to engineer a 'Soft Landing' its a boom and bust cycle this is the Bust stage

Can you identify the world went through a "Bust" of this magnitude? If its a cycle, as you say, that shouldn't be hard. So seriously...when is the last time the international banks were allowed to collapse, and what was the outcome? In comparison, when is the last time that everything possible was done to ensure they didn't collapse?

I think you'll find that intervention is much more part of the cycle that you describe than you are suggesting.

of course people are going to lose everything, these people have over extended themselves are in debt up to their eyes and if they couldnt see this coming over the last year then they deserve it

And the people who didn't overextend themselves? The people who have a mortgage which they can easily afford to repay, and a pension plan which should see them through their retirement? What do they deserve?

Do they deserve to lose their job, and as a result lose their house...all while their pension disappears from under them?

the regular people are screwed anyway, how many crises will it take for the system to eventualy fall over, it should be let die, and then from the ashes lets try something different this time

Good luck with selling that viewpoint.

Time Magazine

I simply do not know enough about the severity and potential consequences of a collapse to comment intelligently on the prescience of a bailout. Nor do I know the details of the bailout, but there appear to be serious problems. To learn about these things in enough detail to comment would take an amount of time that I do not have at the moment.

Mahatma coat

this Trillion dollar dig out, is this US Govt Issued no interest money, or another Trillion dollars of Debt to the FED?

Mahatma coat

So Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs get to become real banks instead of investment banks, what does this mean for the average punter?

Flamed Diving

Mahatma coat wrote: »

It's obvious you've never studied economics.

Those who live in glass houses...

You haven't a bulls notion of economics. Its just laughable that you would say that to another person. Laughable. Ha!

Mahatma coat

can you point out where I said that and who I said it to?

now are you, in your capacity as someone who knows loads about Economics, going to answer any of the questions I asked?

Flamed Diving

All you have to do is click the arrow, to the right of the quote.

There are lots of questions above, care to narrow it to one or two?

Mahatma coat

Ah Context is everything, I think you will find that I was Quoting UCD Econ there, sorry that you were unable to understand the nuances of that post but tis like cut and paste of other quotes from other people

Name - Quote
Name - Quote

etc etc

should probably have used multiquote but it was stuff I pooled from otrher threads

questions, right, lets start with the last 2 there and work back

Mahatma coat

Dear American:

I need to ask you to support an urgent secret business relationship with a transfer of funds of great magnitude.

I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America. My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion dollars US. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you.

I am working with Mr. Phil Gram, lobbyist for UBS, who will be my replacement as Ministry of the Treasury in January. As a Senator, you may know him as the leader of the American banking deregulation movement in the 1990s. This transactin is 100% safe.

This is a matter of great urgency. We need a blank check. We need the funds as quickly as possible. We cannot directly transfer these funds in the names of our close friends because we are constantly under surveillance. My family lawyer advised me that I should look for a reliable and trustworthy person who will act as a next of kin so the funds can be transferred.

Please reply with all of your bank account, IRA and college fund account numbers and those of your children and grandchildren to wallstreetbailout@treasury.gov so that we may transfer your commission for this transaction. After I receive that information, I will respond with detailed information about safeguards that will be used to protect the funds.

Yours Faithfully Minister of Treasury Paulson

:D:D

Kama

Hahahahaha...

That's actually pretty funny, 419 Banksters hehe...

Flamed Diving

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Ah Context is everything, I think you will find that I was Quoting UCD Econ there, sorry that you were unable to understand the nuances of that post but tis like cut and paste of other quotes from other people

Name - Quote
Name - Quote

etc etc

should probably have used multiquote but it was stuff I pooled from otrher threads

questions, right, lets start with the last 2 there and work back

I had a quick scan, and I cant see what questions you refer to?

Mahatma coat

OK I'll play,

POSTS #31 & #32 were phrased as Questions.

course you knew that, you silence on this seems to indicate that

"You haven't a bulls notion of economics."

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK I'll play,

POSTS #31 & #32 were phrased as Questions.

course you knew that, you silence on this seems to indicate that

"You haven't a bulls notion of economics."

You may have noticed that pretty much the entire world were asking the "where is this $700 billion coming from" and right now Bush hasn't got an answer.

If the money markets worked in the manner you think, he could just invent this money, they don't. And the financial markets are sobering up to this fact.

Yes Mahatma the markets bounced when the aid package was announced, and the markets responded in kind in a sort of self fulfilling prophecy (Bush promises to save the market, ergo the market things it's saved and rises).

Look you want me to say the system isn't over exposed to this sort of nonsense? I can't. But you promised to lay out alternatives last weekend. I for one would badly like to hear one.

Flamed Diving

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK I'll play,

POSTS #31 & #32 were phrased as Questions.

course you knew that, you silence on this seems to indicate that

"You haven't a bulls notion of economics."

Just for that ****, I'm not going to entertain your 'legitimate questions'.

Diogenes

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Just for that ****, I'm not going to entertain your 'legitimate questions'.

Honestly as a source for sound economic advice, Mahatma is running a distant last place behind Sarah Palin, which, in itself, is impressive.

Mahatma coat

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Just for that ****, I'm not going to entertain your 'legitimate questions'.

of course thats the reason

nothing to do with the fact that you lack the ability to do anything more than nitpick other posts and attempt snide comments alluding to your 'knowledge' of economics.

Flamed Diving

Mahatma coat wrote: »

of course thats the reason

nothing to do with the fact that you lack the ability to do anything more than nitpick other posts and attempt snide comments alluding to your 'knowledge' of economics.

Well I guess my years of schooling and recognised qualifications in the field are nothing compared to an INTERNET researcher. I bow my head to your superior youtubing abilities.

Mahatma coat

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Well I guess my years of schooling and recognised qualifications in the field are nothing compared to an INTERNET researcher. I bow my head to your superior youtubing abilities.

well done on derailin the thread, yet another fine example of you putting your vast economic knowledge to good use and providing us with

Flamed Diving wrote:

should we look forward to more along the same lines from you from now on

Time Magazine

Diogenes wrote: »

you promised to lay out alternatives last weekend. I for one would badly like to hear one.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Flamed Diving wrote:

should we look forward to more along the same lines from you from now on

Right.

Kama

Less QQ? Refusing to talk doesn't seem to accomplish much...

Any opinions on any of the alternatives to Paulson's unlimited power, above-review, proposal? Any epeenion on Dodd's plan, or Bernie Sanders? Paulson's Plan is getting pretty record levels of objection from people, from what can see. The opportunity cost of the bailout is pretty big, no?

Mahatma coat

Paulsons plan is fairly retarded, lets fix inflation by adding more money to the economy

first one of the candidates to pledge to print US Debt Free money will win.

the Global economy needs to be let die, the poor people will be poor anyway and I dont see why property speculators and Bankers should be bailed out.

what was the phrase, 'Privatised Profits, Socialised Losses'

Kama

first one of the candidates to pledge to print US Debt Free money will win.

In that parallel reality, Ron Paul would be President already...

Mahatma coat

damm straight, tis a shame they didnt pick him over McCain