Lack of paternity leave: How can we make a difference ?

lostinnappies

I have to say i was shocked and horrified to learn that a fathers paternaty leave in this country is only TWO DAYS. How bad and prehistoric is that. In UK when i left it was two weeks, which i now believe has been increased.

How is any father ment to bond to their new born child in only two days. I know they could take holidays but the government should see the importance of having a father at home during the first while. Even in my situation where I had a second c-section and a three year old to look after. At two days i wasnt even out of the hosptial.

Its increadably unfair on fathers and doesnt help with the bonding process. Also unfair on everyone around them, mothers, baby and siblings.

I think its high time the government got their collective fingers out of their collective (places where the sun dont shine) £^&* and made a change. I mean how long has it been since they even looked at that musty old paper that says two days ...... about 50 years?

what do you guys think.

Nevyn

There is legally no such thing as paternity leave in this country.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/leave-and-holidays/paternity_leave

Paternity leave is not recognised in employment law in Ireland. In other words, employers are not obliged to grant male employees special paternity leave (either paid or unpaid) following the birth of their child. Annual leave taken following the birth of a child is treated in employment law in the same way as leave taken at any other time of the year. It is at the discretion of the employer to decide who can and cannot take annual leave at a given time.

Some employers in Ireland, (for example, the civil service), do provide a period of paid leave from work for male employees following the birth or adoption of their child. Fathers employed in the civil service are entitled to a period of special (paternal) leave of three days with pay in respect of children born on or after 1 January, 2000 or for children adopted after 1 January 2000.

The employee usually applies for this leave in writing before the birth or adoption. Arrangements where employers provide this type of leave following the birth or adoption of a child are the result of negotiation and agreement reached between the employer and employee. These arrangements are not covered by employment law so if an employer agrees to provide time off to an employee as paternal leave for a specified period (either with or without pay), it is entirely discretionary.

This has come up before;
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055257044

And until people start lobbying for it's is unlikely to change.

lolly22

Hey lostinnappies,:)

I totally agree. When my baby was born her dad wasnt even told
he had two day, he was just told he could have two weeks unpaid leave
which in the end he had to take as two weeks holidays beacuse unpaid was not a good option for us. I did think it was very unfair.:mad:

I do belive a father bonding with they're new born is just as important as
a mothers bond and i cant understand why the government wont see that.I felt very bad for her dad when he had to decided what to do as I knew there was nothing I could do.:(

It would be great to see a change

lostinnappies

SERIOUSLY,not recognised, omg god. Ive never been more ashamed of Ireland.

Right thats it im moving outa this poohole asap.

Nevyn

Personally I won't be leave but do think that we need to be lobbying and pushing for this.

lostinnappies

Thaedydal wrote: »

Personally I won't be leave but do think that we need to be lobbying and pushing for this.

absolutly, but where do you start. i have no idea. If i could start a patition and send it in somewhere perhaps they might blink at it, but that might be as far as it goes. You would need publicity to get a proper petition, like a mention on a radio show..... i happen to know someone in radio. then get them to sign a petition on boards.ie and let the government know that its there.
:cool:
Although i think the petition intro should be drawn up by perhaps a psycologist (perhaps one is reading) who could tell everyone the stats on having a father present to the child, and how better it would be for the father. I think if I wrote it it would be no stats and all outcry lol

Moonbeam

There is no paternity leave here but they are entitled to Parental leave same as us.

Civil servants and some others do get 3 days paid paternity leave,this is the best I have heard of.

Nevyn

There are studies on this already out there.

http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?locID=207&docID=283
and it needs to be on all parties agenda not jus this ones.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/28454

How you make that happen is by lobbying or pestering your T.D. about it
http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=-1&CatID=138&m=m

stovelid

It's down to the individual employer. I got 2(!) days paid leave and had to take a fortnight out of my annual leave.

Biro

Maybe the feminists will help! They've been screaming for equality for many years now!

Ludo

I got 3 days paid leave also from my employer. However, they have refused my requests for parental leave. They said I can take it some time next year but I should apply a year in advance for it as it will be refused for as long as they legally can.

Nevyn

I am a feminist and this is an issue I have been pushing for.

tubos

Paternity leave in this country is a joke.

I only got one day myself!! had to take annual leave and unpaid parental leave.

At the other end of the scale is Sweden, parents are allowed 18 months paid leave per child, at least 3 months of that must be used by the father (or the 'minority parent')!!

lostinnappies

Thaedydal wrote: »

I am a feminist and this is an issue I have been pushing for.

You seem to have alot of the information going there, perhaps you could make a "petition sticky" in the parenting forum that parents can sign. Once it fills up then we could all help to draw attention to it (all our local TD's, and for those who may have contacts -Radio, TV, and MP's higher up in the government.

haha Make it a collective argie bargie.

Nevyn

Well lostinanppies this site is watched by media, has a big user base and I am sure the admins won't mind use running such a campain from here.
I think it would be better to have a list of T.Ds and to email them directly with a letter stating the same thing.
Anyone want to make a banner ?
An online presence to get people writing and emailing can easily done if you wish.

Statutory Paternity Leave in Europe:

Ireland is right down the bottom of the European league table:

* Iceland - 3 months paid paternity leave
* Slovenia - 90 days paid paternity leave
* Norway *(Outside EU) - 6 weeks paternity leave
("use it or lose it")
* Finland - 18 days paid paternity
(proposing to raise it to 25 days)
* Denmark - 14 days paid paternity
* Estonia - 14 calendar days
* France - 2 weeks paid paternity
* Italy - 2 weeks paid paternity
* UK - 2 weeks paid paternity (from 2003)
* Sweden - 10 days paid paternity leave
* Latvia - 10 calendar days
* Austria - 10 days paid paternity
* Romania - 5 days paid paternity leave
* Hungary - 5 days paternity leave
* Portugal - 5 days paternity
* Belgium - 3 days paid paternity
* Spain - 2 days paternity
* Holland - 2 days paid paternity
* Luxembourg - 2 days paid paternity
* Ireland - NO entitlements to paternity leave

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4629631.stm

lostinnappies

omg we are the only ones with none.... how bad is that. Id love to do this, bit intimidated im afraid. Dont know where i would start ..... and i cant spell lol.

Thought this would be helpful
http://www.gopetition.com/how-to-create-a-petition.php

also im sure that once the petition fills up we can all of us obtain contact details of our local TD's and make it an all ireland out cry. They would have to listen then.

what do you think.

Nevyn

The contact details off all the T.Ds are in one of the above mosts, thier email and office addresses have to be in the public domain.

And lets take a look at what we can set up online for free,
Bebo,
myspace,
facebook.
a blog

any other suggestions ?

p.s. as for spelling get firefox and it has a built in spell checker, catches most of my mess ups.

lostinnappies

ok Thead, it may take me a few days to do this properly but if i draw up a petition banner for paternal rights, any chance we could make it a sticky?

lostinnappies

Thaedydal wrote: »

The contact details off all the T.Ds are in one of the above mosts, thier email and office addresses have to be in the public domain.

And lets take a look at what we can set up online for free,
Bebo,
myspace,
facebook.
a blog

any other suggestions ?

all mummy and daddy websites, i mod for one, i can put it up there.

Even put a few on e-adverts gumtree etc to draw attention to it

jasonb

This has been a bug bear of mine for a very long time!

I'd love to get involved and help in any way I can, but I'm also getting married quite soon and won't have a lot of time to give.

I'm 'lucky' enough to work for a Voluntary Agency under the HSE, so I get 3 Days Paternity. If myself and my wife to be have children, I plan to take as much Holidays / Time In Lieu as I can to be at home with both of them. It's not ideal, having to use up holidays etc., but spending the first few weeks ( at least ) with my new born child and my partner is far too important to me.

Sign me up for anything that's organised...

J.

Nevyn

Well what do you want to call it ?

How about Paternity Leave Action Group ? PLAG ?
I am more the wiling to pitch in won't leave you doing this on your own.

JoeyJJ

Great Idea,

My company offer 3 days which is great of them, I am trying to save every possible day to have as much time at home as possible after our first arrives, which is going to be important as we are both from the West of Ireland living in Dublin with no family around to help in Dublin.

This means I have to be stingy when taking time off the last few months and its a pain. I'll probably have some Parental leave to take unpaid luckily christmas holidays should help as my wife if due mid December.

Moonbeam

I wonder what they mean by "Paid Paternity Leave"?In other countries is it like our "Paid Maternity leave" ? where it is only 220 - 280 a week or is it paid by the companies they work for?
And if it is paid at their full salary rate then we have more issues then just no paid paternity leave in this country!

(Don't get me wrong I am pretty greatfuil we get paid anything while on maternity leave but still..)

lostinnappies

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well what do you want to call it ?

How about Paternity Leave Action Group ? PLAG ?
I am more the wiling to pitch in won't leave you doing this on your own.

That sounds like a really good name. Ill draw up a petition putting in all the info and their links, this will take me a few days to do (between minding the kids) because i want to do it properly. Ill pm it to you then Thaed and you can add any info you have and correct my "outcrys". (sorry just a bit passionate). If there are others who want to help, perhaps you can then pm it onto them and see if there is anything they would like to add. Im also going to post something in the psychology area in here and see if there is any child or family psychologist who would like to put their imput into it.

Nevyn

Want me to set up the bebo/myspace/facebook under that name and share the password with you ?

lostinnappies

cool ya lets do that

jasonb

How about Paternity Leave Action Now or Paternity Leave Action Needed ( PLAN )?

J.

lostinnappies

uh uh perhaps we should have a poll?

lolly22

lostinnappies wrote: »

That sounds like a really good name. Ill draw up a petition putting in all the info and their links, this will take me a few days to do (between minding the kids) because i want to do it properly. Ill pm it to you then Thaed and you can add any info you have and correct my "outcrys". (sorry just a bit passionate). If there are others who want to help, perhaps you can then pm it onto them and see if there is anything they would like to add. Im also going to post something in the psychology area in here and see if there is any child or family psychologist who would like to put their imput into it.

Hey i work nights so im here most days, not sure how i could help but i do feel strongly about it especially afetr I had my own and do think it would be a great idea and im here if you need me for anything, just pm me.;)

Good luck with it

Nevyn

Right I get up paternityleaveactiongroup@gmail.com and a bebo/myspace/facebook.

What we need now is images, graphics and content and any articles which any of you can find on the web about this issue.

Want to spend 10/15 min helping go looking for news articles about this issue,
or searching online the archives of of the Dáil and senad about this.
Want to add your or your partner' story write it up and we will include it.

oh I went ahead with the other one already

See there are lots of things that use PLAN and I tough that PLAG is pronoucable but won't get confused with anything else and with it being a group anyone can be a member and take action and support.

jasonb

No worries, I only suggested PLAN as it was a word, but you're right, it could be confused with other groups. In the end I don't really care what it's called if it helps bring change.

I did an article about this for my Blog a while ago, I can PM it to you if you want?

J.

Nevyn

pm me the link that way I can give you credit and track back to it.

lostinnappies

Thaedydal wrote: »

Right I get up paternityleaveactiongroup@gmail.com and a bebo/myspace/facebook.

What we need now is images, graphics and content and any articles which any of you can find on the web about this issue.

Want to spend 10/15 min helping go looking for news articles about this issue,
or searching online the archives of of the Dáil and senad about this.
Want to add your or your partner' story write it up and we will include it.

oh I went ahead with the other one already

See there are lots of things that use PLAN and I tough that PLAG is pronoucable but won't get confused with anything else and with it being a group anyone can be a member and take action and support.

here is an articel you could paste in there
http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Pubs/clark.html
http://www.babyreference.com/BondingMatters.htm then end bit

and an image
http://www.fotosearch.com/CSK006/pr25880/

lostinnappies

just realised that last image was copyrighted

http://www.clipartguide.com/_pages/0512-0706-1513-2805.html
maybe this one

Oryx

Well done girls, I hope this works out for ye and you actually get a bit of publicity on the issue.

SarahMc

Biro wrote: »

Maybe the feminists will help! They've been screaming for equality for many years now!

Actually the National Women's Council have been campaigning for this for years. Specifically they are looking for:

• Paid maternity leave to increase to 26 weeks.
• 5 days paid paternity leave (to be taken within 1 month of birth).
• 26 weeks paid parental leave.

Sleepy

Up the walls busy at the moment with a house move and baby due on the 2nd but I'll help in any way I can!

Having to use annual leave myself and since I only get the statutory 20 days, it's meant pretty much no time off to-date this year!

Nevyn

Well even if we raise awareness cos most people don't know until they go looking for it and then they are so busy with the baby and the changes to their lives.

This way if people know they can hassle thier T.D. about it

krpc

Hi,

I noticed this thread while browsing the forums. I'm not a parent, or at least not that I know of, but I thought maybe having a look at www.fathers.ie, if it hasn't been provided already, might be of some help to you regarding this?

I hope it helps

Eyeofthetiger

This has annoyed me for a while too, the civil service give 2 days off, I believe some multinationals give 2 weeks and other places none. It would be nice to have some consistency and at least a minimum decent amount. Then again there's no consistency with maternity benefit either....

shaz00

Hi think this is a fantastic idea and ill help in anyway i can aswell. Been a mum of 2 myself i know the importance of the dad having time to bond, my partner, been the angel he is, took his holidays at the time i had my boys, it was a case of having too as i had sections on both of them and wasn't able. He burnt the candle working and visiting me while i was in hospital and then took his holidays when i got home. Will be forever grateful to him for it, helped me out so much, but not everyone is so lucky to have that flexability with their employers, and then he'd no holidays for the rest of the year which really sucks.

I am so in for all that you are doing, fathers should have some entitlements its only right and fair for the babies to bond with both. Go girls this is fantastic!!

Ronan Raver77

Yes this is a good idea to push for some change in the law etc..Pretty bad looking at the list of various other european countries compared to ireland.

hello all. my partner and i had a baby boy in june and i too was only given two poxy days off. if there is a petition going count me in.

littlebug

Wow wow wow :eek: I don't check in all day and ye've got whole campaigns up and running. A great idea. If there's any thing I can do to help at all just shout.
With our second baba my hubby took paternity leave for a few weeks. First time round was a nightmare. His 2 days were used up while I was in hospital before the baby was even born.

Dfens

Great idea ! Haven't much time to spare at the moment to help out but would gladly add my name to any petition etc.

littlebug

Here's the abstract for an interesting article on a global policy analysis of fathers' use of paternity leave. I have the full pdf here but I'm not sure of the legalities of posting the full text here? Anyone know?


FATHERS, WORK AND FAMILY LIFE
Global perspectives and new insights
Authors: Margaret O'Brien; Berit Brandth; Elin Kvande (Show Biographies)
DOI: 10.1080/13668800701574971
Publication Frequency: 4 issues per year
Published in: Community, Work & Family, Volume 10, Issue 4 November 2007 , pages 375 - 386
Subjects: Family Policy; Social Work; Welfare; Work;
Formats available: HTML (English) : PDF (English)
You have: ACCESS
Article Requests: Order Reprints : Request Permissions

View Article: View Article (PDF) View Article (HTML) View Article Section-at-a-time (HTML)



Abstract
This paper presents a policy analysis of fathers' use of paternity leave, parental leave and flexible work practices across several industrialised countries. From the late 1990s there has been a rapid expansion of leave and flexible working provision targeted at fathers, especially in the Nordic countries. New evidence on predictors and patterns of fathers' leave taking are reviewed. Findings suggest that paternal leave taking has the potential to boost fathers' practical and emotional investment in infant care.
Keywords: Fathers; paternity leave; parental leave

i just sent the following to mary hanafin. i cheekily cut+paste a large piece of an earlier post.

Dear Minister,

I would like to know when you plan to change the current SHAMEFUL situation where new fathers in this country are entitled to NO PAID PATERNAL LEAVE WHATSOEVER. Please take a moment to read the following table.

Statutory Paternity Leave in Europe:

Ireland is right down the bottom of the European league table:

* Iceland - 3 months paid paternity leave
* Slovenia - 90 days paid paternity leave
* Norway *(Outside EU) - 6 weeks paternity leave
("use it or lose it")
* Finland - 18 days paid paternity
(proposing to raise it to 25 days)
* Denmark - 14 days paid paternity
* Estonia - 14 calendar days
* France - 2 weeks paid paternity
* Italy - 2 weeks paid paternity
* UK - 2 weeks paid paternity (from 2003)
* Sweden - 10 days paid paternity leave
* Latvia - 10 calendar days
* Austria - 10 days paid paternity
* Romania - 5 days paid paternity leave
* Hungary - 5 days paternity leave
* Portugal - 5 days paternity
* Belgium - 3 days paid paternity
* Spain - 2 days paternity
* Holland - 2 days paid paternity
* Luxembourg - 2 days paid paternity
* Ireland - NO entitlements to paternity leave

I believe that this pitiful situation needs to be addressed with utmost urgency as working families such as my own are not being afforded the luxury of time for adjustment and bonding which other EU countries take for granted. I look forward to receiving a response from you in the next 15 working days.

Your Sincerely

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

fell free to cut and paste this and send it to hanafin. lets make her earn her keep

Nevyn

I have been told that you should email and then a week later write a letter and then reference that you send an email already.

lostinnappies

ok almost done with writing up the petition will send it on probably by the end of the day, im just compiling all the info i get into one letter, i hope it will all fit on the board post because im sure people want to read what they are signing.:D

JoeyJJ

Matt Cooper might pick this up if you fancy sending it into him. If he does pick it up he'll get some attention.

galwaydude

That is such a great idea, anything i can help with i will. We are living in the darks ages as 2 days is certainly not enough time to bond with a new baby. Over here in the states you get 2 weeks by law but my employer basically told me to fob of so had to use my annual leave.