Raw 15/9 Spoilers

amacachi

Wow, Punk looked like a man about to win a title on his way to the ring.

*EDIT* My imagination or does Jericho look like he has a drugs test comin up soon?

SlickRic

weird end to the match, wasnt botched i don't think, just a bit of an anti-climax in a way after a pretty good match.

plays up jericho's 'flukey' win angle nicely, though he'd better be played strong soon. if WWE repeat their 2002 mistake it'll be ridiculous

lets see how the rest of raw goes first though....

rovert

Ick I didnt like this show at all when all was said and done.

rovert

For anyone who wants it.

Sept. 15 Bryan & Vinny Show: Raw, Smackdown, shout-outs, back injury update, more
It's the post-Raw Bryan & Vinny Show~! Besides discussing Monday night's extravaganza we'll also talk the upcoming PPV, all the segments one-by-one, Smackdown this past Friday night with Hunter's burial of the entire promotion, and more! Plus, shout-outs and an update on my tragic back injury and how my recovery is going.

http://media001.f4wonline.com/dmdocuments/091508bvshow.mp3

ShawnRaven

SlickRic wrote: »

plays up jericho's 'flukey' win angle nicely, though he'd better be played strong soon. if WWE repeat their 2002 mistake it'll be ridiculous

I partially agree here, but the Rock/Jericho match from Rumble 2002 was pretty damn good and has aged pretty well too (unlike Rock/Hogan from two months later, for example)

The only thing that killed momentum for Jericho was the return of HHH. Not that it was Hunter's fault or anything, Vince knew damn well he was coming back in the new year when he booked Jericho for the belt. I genuinely believe that Vince never had Jericho penned for a long term reign back then, that he was just someone to transition to without damaging the credibility of the other main eventers at the time.

At the time i was outraged by it, but looking back it made sense. Austin, Rock and Taker weren't going to be the sacrificial lambs, it would have made no sense to throw Angle in there (seeing as he was being pushed anyway), Benoit was benched, and regardless he wasn't over enough for a world title reign (whereas Jericho had gotten the rub from teaming and feuding with Rock a few months earlier)

Jericho's current title reign leaves a bad taste in my mouth to be honest. Fluke win storylines never impressed me, to me, it just looked like "the CP Munk being champion isn't working, we need to throw it onto someone to nurse the bleeding". Jericho goes on (what feels like) a six month storyline with Michaels, smacks his wife and then gets a world title less than a month afterwards?

Great way to build up a heel yes, but the main title holder of your promotion? Wouldn't be what i'd do, but I guess Vince is still in business for a reason.

VR!

D-FENS

I’m happy enough with the Jericho situation to be honest, he was always going to win one of the world titles upon his return, granted it was not the comeback of the century for the first 6 months or so anyway, but his heel work since turning on Michaels has been fantastic and secondary only to Edge. And the sneaky win is a Y2J speciality, I’ve no problem with a cheating heel champion, that’s what they’re all about. Having the title throw into the mix with him and Michaels does make it a bit top heavy, but I don’t think it’s going to be just them in the mix anymore per say, Punk, Batista, possibly JBL, followed by Orton and eventually Cena will all be involved. There hasn’t really been a clear cut Champion/One Challenger situation with that WWE title for a while now, certainly not since the draft, so if there’s a lot of options angle wise they can go with, may as well have one of the best of all time as Champion while it’s going on, at least we know Jericho can deliver in all areas.
As for Punk, I can see how some think he’s lost credibility, both with the weekly matches he lost on Raw and with the eventual lost of the title, but he’s still a rookie as far as main events go, I see it as completely realistic for a guy still cutting his teeth with the big boys to lose to them, it doesn’t take away from what he brings to the table in terms of potential and ability and it doesn’t make him look weak, just makes his attempt to get to the top more exciting. Plus, WWE would be reluctant to build a newish guy up too much too soon these days, after the likes of Lesnar and Lashley (Punk wouldn’t be believable dominating the main event scene anyway). And there’s no shame in losing to the likes of Y2J in my view. Punk a lot to be proud of in terms of how far he’s risen in the last few years, with all the rumours of him not being liked he must have impressed someone and can do it again if he goes about it the right way, look at the likes of Kennedy and Benjamin, who would kill their own grannies for a one and one title shot, or Jeff who’s still to win the big one 9Don’t think he’ll do it at No Mercy but who knows). Punk can make just as big an impact now as one of the guys chasing the title than the underdog defending it (Didn’t they kinda do that a couple of years ago with Cena defending against Angle? Cena came out on top to the better wrester there and no many liked that either). And I also don’t have a problem with the way Punk lost it, Orton put loads of guys on the shelf with that kick to the head, it’s becoming a bit of a handy little MacGuffin in that respect., I personally thought it was good to see Orton use it again in that way.

EdK

Was the guy who was introducing himself to people Nick Nemeth?

rovert

EdK wrote: »

Was the guy who was introducing himself to people Nick Nemeth?

Yes, his new name is Dorf Diggler or something. He was doing a Billy Gunn rip off gimmick in FCW.

Fozzy

I really liked Raw, even if I was nearly falling asleep watching it. Jericho vs Michaels should be great

Good to see Sydal on Raw again. It just made me laugh when he showed up during Kane's promo, seemed a bit silly. Kane sure got a great reaction with the mask back on :pac:

I hope Jillian doesn't steal Danielson's "I've got til five" gimmick

I loved when Orton's music hit. I can't wait for him to come back

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

Jericho vs Michaels should be great

Man, Adamle did the match a total disservice announcing it though. WWE needs to stop using him as the pitch man for major matches in front of the crowd.

Fozzy wrote: »

Good to see Sydal on Raw again. It just made me laugh when he showed up during Kane's promo, seemed a bit silly.

It was silly to begin with, with the campy music and Kane's delivery. Promos were never Sydal's strength going by reports.

Fozzy wrote: »

Kane sure got a great reaction with the mask back on :pac:

I need to rewatch that again then as I honestly heard nothing.

Fozzy wrote: »

I loved when Orton's music hit. I can't wait for him to come back

They are really creating interest in his in ring return aren’t they and planting seeds for a number of feuds down the line.

grames_bond

cant wait to see the jericho vs michaels ladder match, but am i the only one that see's it as a dead cert that jericho will win, seein as they are already kind of blankly saying itll be jericho vs batista/jbl at the next ppv after no mercy?!

amacachi

grames_bond wrote: »

cant wait to see the jericho vs michaels ladder match, but am i the only one that see's it as a dead cert that jericho will win, seein as they are already kind of blankly saying itll be jericho vs batista/jbl at the next ppv after no mercy?!

I dunno, I fell asleep not long after Raw started, I'd be very surprised to see Michaels win.

michael.etc...

It does seem obvious to us that Michaels will lose at the PPV, but to the masses, they'll be well behind him.

I agree that Adamle's delivery was awful, in announcing anything of importance he stuttered and muddled things. It wasn' comical either, just annoying and counterproductive.

rovert

grames_bond wrote: »

cant wait to see the jericho vs michaels ladder match, but am i the only one that see's it as a dead cert that jericho will win, seein as they are already kind of blankly saying itll be jericho vs batista/jbl at the next ppv after no mercy?!

Totally, they aren’t ****ing doing HBK vs Batista or JBL that’s for sure. The Ladder match is another "excuse" for HBK not to lose clean 1-2-3. A ladder match isn’t really the best way to blow off a feud like this. They will likely have one final match at Survivor Series likely a “I Quit” match given historical significance of the stipulation and what classic feuds they are drawing from.

rovert

michael.etc... wrote: »

I agree that Adamle's delivery was awful, in announcing anything of importance he stuttered and muddled things. It wasn' comical either, just annoying and counterproductive.

He went from like implying he was stripping Y2J to having Y2J meet the winner of the No.1 contender match to Adamle challenging Y2J. I honestly think the confusion hurt the crowd reaction to HBK as the crowd did know where he was going.

michael.etc...

^^^^

On the other hand, I see the Ladder Match as an opportunity to have Jericho unseat Michaels in a match that is supposedly hbk's "speciality".

Though I agree, they shouldn't blow the feud off with this stip. I think it's got major mileage however, with the title adding an extra dimension.

Fozzy

rovert wrote: »

Man, Adamle did the match a total disservice announcing it though. WWE needs to stop using him as the pitch man for major matches in front of the crowd.

I agree. Sometimes I like him but this was one of the times when I really didn't. He was talking about his own title defence and something about a quarterly meeting with Shane and Stephanie that I didn't follow

rovert wrote: »

I need to rewatch that again then as I honestly heard nothing.

Ah come on, there was something there, however small!

It's obvious that Jericho will retain the title, but that shouldn't hurt the match. There'd be no point to Jericho having the title for just a month and if they're going to have Shawn beat him then they shouldn't rush their title program, especially when Shawn was the last one to get the upper hand in their feud

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

I agree. Sometimes I like him but this was one of the times when I really didn't. He was talking about his own title defence and something about a quarterly meeting with Shane and Stephanie that I didn't follow

I forgot about that.

Fozzy wrote: »

Ah come on, there was something there, however small!]

I cant watch it at the moment due to techincal reasons too off the wall to explain. But the reaction to me didnt come into the foreground of the audio of the vignette the way the crowd cheers when they see Batista or boo when the see Orton. It wasnt a nostalgia pop.

Machismo Fan

I'm thinking Last Man Standing or Iron Man for Survivor Series between HBK and Y2J, leaning towards Iron Man due to the recent LMS match. An Iron Man match would be the ultimate way to decide the better man.

rovert

Machismo Fan wrote: »

An Iron Man match would be the ultimate way to decide the better man.

I completely, unreservedly disagree entirely.

Fozzy

Is Survivor Series not the PPV after No Mercy? Or is there another one in between them? I'd have thought that the winner of JBL/Batista (Batista I'm sure) would face Jericho at the PPV after this one. And then they'll hold off Michaels/Jericho for a while longer

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

Is Survivor Series not the PPV after No Mercy? Or is there another one in between them? I'd have thought that the winner of JBL/Batista (Batista I'm sure) would face Jericho at the PPV after this one. And then they'll hold off Michaels/Jericho for a while longer

October 5, 2008 Portland, Oregon No Mercy
October 26, 2008 Phoenix, Arizona Cyber Sunday
November 23, 2008 Boston, Massachusetts Survivor Series
December 21, 2008 Buffalo, New York Armageddon

michael.etc...

Is Survivor Series not the PPV after No Mercy? Or is there another one in between them? I'd have thought that the winner of JBL/Batista (Batista I'm sure) would face Jericho at the PPV after this one. And then they'll hold off Michaels/Jericho for a while longer

Cyber Sunday is first, at the end of this month, which is the sort of event that Batista/jericho is ideal for in my book.

I'm with Machismo Fan, i'd love to see a HBK/Jericho Iron Man Match.

rovert

michael.etc... wrote: »

I'm with Machismo Fan, i'd love to see a HBK/Jericho Iron Man Match.

IN A CONTEST OF WHO WILL GET DISQUALIFED THE LEAST!!!!

Seriously lads it would make no sense.

Mr.Nice Guy

Well I think my feelings on how Punk was treated at Unforgiven have been vindicated in light of the recent Raw show.

So much for the belief that Punk was set to benefit.

rovert

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well I think my feelings on how Punk was treated at Unforgiven have been vindicated in light of the recent Raw show.

So much for the belief that Punk was set to benefit.

Hardly re-read what you wrote in that thread. CM Punk was actually protected in his cage match with Y2J (the champion btw.)

Fozzy

Punk looked much stronger in this loss to Jericho than he did in his previous losses to him. That's a step up for him

grames_bond

michael.etc... wrote: »

On the other hand, I see the Ladder Match as an opportunity to have Jericho unseat Michaels in a match that is supposedly hbk's "speciality". .

i agree here that when jericho beats michael in the match he made famous, he will rant and rave about this for months which will get him serious heel heat! but i think he'll win and then they will make the feud go cold with having jericho face one of the other 2 at cyber sinday which is a bit weird, for a feud to be put on hold when its one of the only good things to watch on raw atm!

rovert

grames_bond wrote: »

i agree here that when jericho beats michael in the match he made famous, he will rant and rave about this for months which will get him serious heel heat! but i think he'll win and then they will make the feud go cold with having jericho face one of the other 2 at cyber sinday which is a bit weird, for a feud to be put on hold when its one of the only good things to watch on raw atm!

It does raise questions alright. But at Cyber Sunday they could have a vote on the Special Guest Referee for the title match for example fans could have the “choice” of Lance Cade or the neighbours cat or Shawn Michaels.

rovert

Bad times: Raw got a 2.6 or 2.7 rating.

Panic time folks.

Vince135792003

Raw did a 2.7 last night according to www.f4wonline.com which is pretty bad. With Smackdown moving soon to another network, the WWE are coming are under a bit more pressure in terms of tv ratings.

Rjd2

rovert wrote: »

Bad times: Raw got a 2.6 or 2.7 rating.

Panic time folks.

Was their not some big NFL match last night? That always eats into the ratings.

Vince135792003

Rjd2 wrote: »

Was their not some big NFL match last night? That always eats into the ratings.

It would never normally eat into it that badly.

Fozzy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

It would never normally eat into it that badly.

This match reportedly set new cable viewing records

Rjd2

Fozzy wrote: »

This match reportedly set new cable viewing records

Yeah I heard it was a cracker as well, so I an imagine a lot of the WWE audience after watching the cage match flicked over to the match.
Or maybe Jericho is not as big as draw as CM Punk:eek:

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Raw did a 2.7 last night according to www.f4wonline.com which is pretty bad. With Smackdown moving soon to another network, the WWE are coming are under a bit more pressure in terms of tv ratings.

For anyone wanting proof that WWE is going under in terms of programming quality, there ya go! I've said it for months now.

VR!

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well I think my feelings on how Punk was treated at Unforgiven have been vindicated in light of the recent Raw show.

So much for the belief that Punk was set to benefit.

Punk controlled the vast majority of the cage match and Jericho only beat him by fluke. That match made him look stronger than any other match he's had in months.

grames_bond

validreasoning! wrote: »

For anyone wanting proof that WWE is going under in terms of programming quality, there ya go! I've said it for months now.

VR!

For anyone wanting proof that WWE is going under in terms of programming quality they made cm punk champion and have started giving kane promo time!! there ya go!

Mr.Nice Guy

Ahem...

F4Wonline wrote:

Jericho went to escape again, but Punk caught him this time with an electric chair off the ropes. Punk began throwing Jericho into the cage repeatedly, but Jericho raked Punk’s face and fell out the cage door for the win.

I saw three positives about this opener and one negative. First on the positive side, I like that they had the guts to put over Jericho without interference to help strengthen him as champion.

This is what I said in the Unforgiven thread:

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Losing the title in the manner in which he did made him look puny to my mind. Not even Rey, as bad as his title reign was booked, suffered the indignity of losing his title due to a backstage assault.

Assuming he jobs out to Jericho doesn't that mean his title reign was an abject failure? I think that's a pity because I felt it could have been salvaged.

This is exactly what has happened. Move aside Punk, your time in the sun is over with and in pathetic circumstances too.

Just because Punk dominated the match means jack sh*t as he's the babyface and that is what's supposed to happen. Losing clean however without interference makes him look inferior to Jericho and makes him look poor in the eyes of the audience.

I won't be eating any humble pie anyway. :cool:

PS: LOL at the rating.

EdK

And Raw was considered to be a fairly competitive show this week they thought that would see off the NFL...........wrong

I am actually really starting to get into American football, more so lately even though i went to a game 2 years ago and have been watching it fairly regularly for awhile

WWE will have to step up on Mondays,pressure makes better tv and the irony is its not even another wrestling company they are competing against

flahavaj

I thought MNG was an ROHater anyway and was forever cutting the back off Punker as "nothing special." if you think he's being badly treated, then surely you'd be happy at this?;)

ShawnRaven

EdK wrote: »

WWE will have to step up on Mondays,pressure makes better tv and the irony is its not even another wrestling company they are competing against

Lol Why would Vince step up to Mondays?, when he can just mock Monday Night Football, like he has done so many times in the past.

Maybe he can start up a competing league... oh wait.
VR!

EdK

An artists rendition of what that may look like



Potential Celebrity Endorsement

Mr.Nice Guy

flahavaj wrote: »

I thought MNG was an ROHater anyway and was forever cutting the back off Punker as "nothing special." if you think he's being badly treated, then surely you'd be happy at this?;)

No I've actually liked Punk since the start of his WWE run but I felt his wrestling ability was always incredibly overrated by ROH fans and I think his matches in WWE have reflected that. I don't think he's a five-star wrestler by any means but I do think he has a lot of charisma and that the company could do a lot of great things with him if they used him better.

Bubs101

Vince135792003 wrote: »

It would never normally eat into it that badly.

It was a spectacular match with 75+ points. Hard to compete with

rovert

validreasoning! wrote: »

For anyone wanting proof that WWE is going under in terms of programming quality, there ya go! I've said it for months now.

VR!

Even if true your understanding of what affects ratings is incredibly simplistic here.

rovert

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Ahem...



This is what I said in the Unforgiven thread:



This is exactly what has happened. Move aside Punk, your time in the sun is over with and in pathetic circumstances too.:

Okay where was this written I can’t find it on the F4W website? I notice you only posted one point about the match when the writer has more. Anyway what is you bolded doesn’t have much to do with each other in fairness as it is crossed purposes. I cant really comment on the article as you didn’t post the full paragraph or who the writer was. CM Punk was protected going into the match, during the match and its finish. Whoever wrote that piece is also neglecting the point of Jericho’s reign or the role which the finish played into the No Mercy main event. I wrote about in detail in the Unforgiven thread the psychology behind Punks title reign so instead of me/we rehashing it here re-read the Unforgiven thread. Once again you prove yourself to be clueless about this stuff least we forget your erroneous application of the term cheap heat in the Unforgiven thread. As you said “Just because Punk dominated the match means jack sh*t as he's the babyface and that is what's supposed to happen.” The total opposite is meant to happen in the vast majority of matches in fact

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Just because Punk dominated the match means jack sh*t as he's the babyface and that is what's supposed to happen. Losing clean however without interference makes him look inferior to Jericho and makes him look poor in the eyes of the audience.

I’m actually glad that you brought up the Unforgiven thread:

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yes and when Khali got the belt the fans didn't like it either. That doesn't make giving him the title a sensible idea. I'm sure if TNA put their title belt on Jeff Jarrett the fans wouldn't like it. A heel that will benefit from the title would be preferable to one that has been used for shock purposes. I don't believe Jericho needed it at this point. I would argue Punk certainly required it more than Jericho at this point in time.

You never answered my question why you compared Jericho with those two.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I won't be eating any humble pie anyway. :cool:

Speaking of humble pie:

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think his popularity levels were solid. Not at Batista/Cena/Michaels levels but he needed time given the manner of his victory. I think they have totally ruined his momentum and I'm willing to bet that by November, December this will have proven to have been a really bad move for CM Punk and a largely pointless move for Jericho.

I will eat humble pie if I am wrong.

I think that you are the one who has to eat humble pie first here as things are a lot more wait and see when it comes to Punk. As clearly putting the title on Jericho had a point as I’ve said in the Unforgiven and it wasn’t done for shock purposes as you seemed to believed in the Unforgiven thread.

D-FENS

rovert wrote: »

Yes, his new name is Dorf Diggler or something. He was doing a Billy Gunn rip off gimmick in FCW.

Dolph Ziggler. I hope they're just ripping off the Boogie Nights name and not the gimmick as well, rehashing Val Venis' character would be almost as bad as rehashing the pirate character.
He looks the part anyway, looks like he could end up in Jericho camp too, Blond World Order perhaps?

Bubs101

Raw suffered from lack of Honk-o-meter

D-FENS

Bubs101 wrote: »

Raw suffered from lack of Honk-o-meter

Indeed, thought he’d mention it when he interrupted Orton. Bringing up his Dad’s herpes and the fact that Beth squeals like a pig was good though

citytillidie

Ladder match could be a way for HBK to get "injured" since he is go off heal up and end the feud with Jericho at either Royal Rumble or Wrestlemania