Noel Edmonds calls for UK's borders to be shut

Latchy · 14-09-2008 1:28pm #1

From todays News of the world

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article25476.ece

J.S. Pill · 14-09-2008 6:30pm

latchyco wrote: »

From todays News of the world

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article25476.ece

In the article he stated:

“Then you get people out who have committed crimes and you look at others who shouldn’t be here. Nobody knows how many people we’ve got here.”

I'm sure the EU might have something to say about this one.

Lets get a bit of perspective here - this is Noel Edmunds. Bernard Manning and Jim Davidson had similar views but I don't think they've ever been asked to sit on any UK government consultative committees (I am open to correction on this one...)

mike65 · 14-09-2008 7:23pm

I suspect a bit of "pub" talk is being hyped up here.

edit - I just checked the link - I suspect the Sub-ed is on the right track with his headline.

Mike.

stovelid · 14-09-2008 9:30pm

If closed borders stop Noel ever leaving the UK to seek TV employment, I'm sure the rest of the world will readily concur.

Firetrap · 14-09-2008 9:56pm

Yes, how can you take seriously the views of a man who opened a theme park called Crinkly Bottom?

ejmaztec · 14-09-2008 11:17pm

Firetrap wrote: »

Yes, how can you take seriously the views of a man who opened a theme park called Crinkly Bottom?

Enoch Powell didn't have a Crinkly Bottom (as far as I'm aware), and they didn't listen to him.

When there's standing-room only, they may consider action. Until then, anybody suggesting immigration restrictions will be branded a neo-nazi racist.

magick · 15-09-2008 5:47pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

.

When there's standing-room only, they may consider action. Until then, anybody suggesting immigration restrictions will be branded a neo-nazi racist.

Thats the problem right there, any time anyone talks about immigration they are pulled over by the PC police/ far left and branded a racist.

I remember Kevin Myres wrote an article abuot it only a few weeks ago, now (not talking about the article but the reaction on boards) was amazing people started spouting out "oh hes a racist,hes far right" without even reading the whole article.

Latchy · 15-09-2008 6:01pm

On the subject of immigration ,Noel Edmunds doesnt inspire one to rush out and buy the book .But if it were somebody with a bit more ummpa or inspiration saying the same thing ,like say sir's david and richard Attenborough (or somebody of that ilk ) then it might hit home .Lots will actually agree with edmunds but then his Millionaire tax exile status (with home iin france ) will not endour him with many either

A case of dont shoot the messenger maybe ?

djpbarry · 15-09-2008 8:04pm

magick wrote: »

Thats the problem right there, any time anyone talks about immigration they are pulled over by the PC police/ far left and branded a racist.

There are extremists on both sides of every debate, but that doesn't mean that people should be afraid to have the debate.

magick wrote: »

I remember Kevin Myres wrote an article abuot it only a few weeks ago, now (not talking about the article but the reaction on boards) was amazing people started spouting out "oh hes a racist,hes far right" without even reading the whole article.

Myers produces an article on the subject about once a week and, in fairness, the purpose of his article is to shift newspapers, not to inform the public.

J.S. Pill · 15-09-2008 8:06pm

This is the same man who recently claimed that his parent's souls hover around his shoulder in the form of glowing melon shaped Orbs.

see here

Maybe he perceives Britain as being overcrowded as he sees similar orbs hovering around everyone that arrives.

Latchy · 15-09-2008 8:12pm

Perhaps david ike has being giving edmunds some tips

But as mentioned it's not the message that's out of sorts ( he is only saying what many other celebs /politicians /ordinary people are saying ) ,it's the messenger

Mr.Micro · 15-09-2008 8:25pm

Edmonds is just a media tart who will say anything to get attention now that he has gone all serious. He has made a fortune up to now in being frivolous .. he is Mr Blobby. The piece in the NOTW, enough said.

irish_bob · 15-09-2008 8:59pm

djpbarry wrote: »

There are extremists on both sides of every debate, but that doesn't mean that people should be afraid to have the debate.
Myers produces an article on the subject about once a week and, in fairness, the purpose of his article is to shift newspapers, not to inform the public.

thats an entirely subjective opinion , on kevin myers motives that is

djpbarry · 16-09-2008 8:41am

irish_bob wrote: »

thats an entirely subjective opinion , on kevin myers motives that is

More an opinion on why his articles get published. Like many other journalists at the Indo, he's a sensationalist and he sells newspapers.

irish_bob · 16-09-2008 9:01am

djpbarry wrote: »

More an opinion on why his articles get published. Like many other journalists at the Indo, he's a sensationalist and he sells newspapers.

again , subjective

djpbarry · 16-09-2008 9:23am

irish_bob wrote: »

again , subjective

Well, yeah, it is. Have I struck a nerve? Myers fan?

irish_bob · 16-09-2008 9:39am

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, yeah, it is. Have I struck a nerve? Myers fan?

i like kevin myers , yes

stovelid · 16-09-2008 12:45pm

irish_bob wrote: »

i like kevin myers , yes

Strangely enough I concur.

I used to like reading his column in the IT (and his book) even if I disagreed violently with about 80% of what he wrote.

The paper is worse for his departure, whereas the Indo is worse for his arrival. If you get me.

MoominPapa · 16-09-2008 1:07pm

Back on topic people.

So how big do you reckon these melons are? Galia or Water?
Unfortunately even the English Indo doesn't say: article:rolleyes:

O'Morris · 16-09-2008 2:22pm

I think immigration into Ireland is far too high and it's time the government took action to reduce it.

Does anyone disagree?

stovelid · 16-09-2008 2:32pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I think immigration into Ireland is far too high and it's time the government took action to reduce it.

Does anyone disagree?

http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roflbotmj1.jpg

oscarBravo · 16-09-2008 2:44pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Does anyone disagree?

Yes.

Fratton Fred · 16-09-2008 2:54pm

With the economies going down the pan in the UK and ireland, I think immigration will be a lot less from now on anyway.

djpbarry · 16-09-2008 3:05pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I think immigration into Ireland is far too high and it's time the government took action to reduce it.

Does anyone disagree?

Yes, but then I'm probably just being politically correct.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

With the economies going down the pan in the UK and ireland, I think immigration will be a lot less from now on anyway.

Indeed. The ESRI has forecast net emigration for next year:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0624/1214257072258.html

O'Morris · 16-09-2008 3:31pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

With the economies going down the pan in the UK and ireland, I think immigration will be a lot less from now on anyway.

40,000 expected to arrive here next year (see here). When you account for the difference in population that's twice as many people, per head of population, as enter Britain each year. If even in the depth of a recession we're still taking in twice as many people as our nearest neighbour, what can we expect when the economy picks up again in another few years?

I think we've gone beyond the point where we can just sit back and hope that if we ignore the problem it will go away.

djpbarry wrote:

Yes, but then I'm probably just being politically correct.

Not at all old boy. It would be politically correct if you secretly agree with me but claimed otherwise out of a fear of what people might think of you.

djpbarry wrote:

Indeed. The ESRI has forecast net emigration for next year:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...257072258.html

Who will be the people emigrating though? The Poles have restricted movement in the EU so the number of options open to them is limited. As the Irish don't have any restrictions on their movement and as low-skilled jobs out foreign will be better paid than they are here (because of lower immigration in those countries), I would expect that a significant number of those people emigrating will be our boys. Even if they're all immigrants though the net decrease next year won't be enough to make up for this year's net increase in foreign born population.

BlaasForRafa · 16-09-2008 7:00pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I think immigration into Ireland is far too high and it's time the government took action to reduce it.

Does anyone disagree?

Yes, theres not nearly enough hot polish women here yet.

Belfast · 16-09-2008 8:02pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I think immigration into Ireland is far too high and it's time the government took action to reduce it.

Does anyone disagree?

Yes.

When things go wrong and times are hard blame foreigners. Always a popular sport.

The problem with the UK economy could not be the UK voters who voted the the Muppet's who are running the country into the ground.

I wonder is he getting his ideas from ten year olds, or maybe not they are probably smarter than him.

If the UK is to close it doors to foreigners, should the rest of the work keep the people form the UK out.

On the up side with no more travel between countries we should save so much Co2 that people can shut up about it.

djpbarry · 16-09-2008 9:01pm

O'Morris wrote: »

40,000 expected to arrive here next year (see here).

Did you even read the headline of that article?

O'Morris wrote: »

I think we've gone beyond the point where we can just sit back and hope that if we ignore the problem it will go away.

A lot of people don't consider foreign-born people "a problem"; some of us consider them friends and family.

O'Morris wrote: »

Who will be the people emigrating though?

I don't care; which rock people were born on is of little concern to me.

O'Morris · 17-09-2008 8:49am

BlaasForRafa wrote:

Yes, theres not nearly enough hot polish women here yet.

Why do you single out the Polish women? Do you not think the Nigerian women are hot?

Belfast wrote:

When things go wrong and times are hard blame foreigners.

I don't blame the foreigners. I blame the government for letting the problem get out of control.

It's like complaining about traffic congestion. To say that we'd be better off if there were fewer cars on the road is not to blame the people driving those cars. I don't blame the motorists for the traffic, I blame the government. It's the same with immigration.

Belfast wrote:

Always a popular sport.

If you think blaming foreigners is a popular sport now, expect to see its popularity increase over the next few months along with the dole queues.

djpbarry wrote:

Did you even read the headline of that article?

I did. Did you read the article?

40,000 people are expected to arrive here next year. That's twice as many people, per head of population, as enter Britain each year. Even in the worst year of a recession we'll still be taking in twice as many people as our nearest neighbour.

djpbarry wrote:

A lot of people don't consider foreign-born people "a problem"; some of us consider them friends and family.

It's possible for friends and families to be the cause of problems. If you had a son who was a violent headcase and was out robbing and killing people I'm sure you wouldn't attempt to ignore that by saying he's family. Even though he would be family he would still be a problem.

I consider each one of the thousands of Doles on the pole to be personal friends of mine but I still think they're costing the taxpayer money and we'd be in a better situation if we didn't have so many of them here and so many of them ag teacht isteach.

The problem is not with the people themselves, the problem is with the number of them here and the number of them still entering the country. Ireland is a small country, we can't continue to take in this number of people without it having huge consequences for the future.

djpbarry wrote:

I don't care; which rock people were born on is of little concern to me.

I do care. I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now. If the demographic trends continue we can expect our share of the population to fall below a level where the long-term survival of an Ireland of Irish people is put in doubt.

djpbarry · 17-09-2008 9:45am

O'Morris wrote: »

Why do you single out the Polish women? Do you not think the Nigerian women are hot?

Wow; grade-A straw man; well done.

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't blame the foreigners. I blame the government for letting the problem get out of control.

So you don’t have a problem with the foreigners; you just want them all to **** off back where they came from? Hmm…. That sounds to me like you have a problem with the foreigners.

O'Morris wrote: »

It's like complaining about traffic congestion. To say that we'd be better off if there were fewer cars on the road is not to blame the people driving those cars.

So do you tell a certain group of motorists that they can’t drive on certain roads any more? Or do you attempt to improve infrastructure, increase efficiency and/or provide alternative modes of transport?

Anyway, it’s a poor analogy. Traffic congestion is a tangible problem that can be tackled with the measures above, resulting in reduced congestion, which can be measured. You cannot accurately measure people’s intolerance of foreigners.

O'Morris wrote: »

40,000 people are expected to arrive here next year…

…with 60,000 to leave. That would be net emigration of 20,000 people.

O'Morris wrote: »

It's possible for friends and families to be the cause of problems. If you had a son who was a violent headcase and was out robbing and killing people I'm sure you wouldn't attempt to ignore that by saying he's family. Even though he would be family he would still be a problem.

Yeah…

As far as I’m aware, the vast majority of foreigners in this country are not “out robbing and killing people”. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise?

O'Morris wrote: »

I consider each one of the thousands of Doles on the pole to be personal friends of mine…

:rolleyes:

But you’d rather they weren’t here? Some friend you are.

O'Morris wrote: »

Ireland is a small country…

…with a very low population density of approximately 60.3 persons per square kilometre. This will decrease further with net emigration returning next year. We also have lots and lots of empty houses. Don’t worry – there’s still plenty of room.

O'Morris wrote: »

…we can't continue to take in this number of people without it having huge consequences for the future.

We’re not continuing to take in “this number of people” – net emigration next year, remember? Don’t worry – the foreigners aren’t taking over just yet.

O'Morris wrote: »

I do care. I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now.

Barring genocide, it most likely will be. Do you honestly think that, 100 years from now, decedents of immigrants who have arrived in Ireland over the last few years, will not consider themselves Irish?

O'Morris wrote: »

If the demographic trends continue...

They won’t, remember? Net emigration.

merrionsq · 17-09-2008 11:10am

Consider this. The UK has now overtaken the Netherlands as the European country with the highest population density. That's incredible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_7610000/newsid_7618900/7618994.stm

And its predicted to continue to rise in this way. Immigration is the primary factor behind this.

Is this a good thing, and is it sustainable? I don't think any sensible person would consider stopping immigration, but when you reach a population density like that its definitely time for a rethink on how many people are coming in.

Belfast · 17-09-2008 2:21pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Did you even read the headline of that article?
A lot of people don't consider foreign-born people "a problem"; some of us consider them friends and family.
I don't care; which rock people were born on is of little concern to me.

Maybe Noel Edmunds needs to read

Immigrants: Your Country Needs Them
by Legra Philippe
51ssJjHt6fL._SS500_.jpg

O'Morris · 17-09-2008 3:27pm

djpbarry wrote:

So you don’t have a problem with the foreigners; you just want them all to **** off back where they came from?

Yes, but I would never use such violent language or allow such violent thoughts to pass through my beautiful brain though. I think it would make things easier if they were encouraged to return home and if we discouraged more of them from coming here, particularly as we're in a recession and it's beginning to cost us a lot of money to support them.

djpbarry wrote:

Hmm…. That sounds to me like you have a problem with the foreigners.

I don't have a problem with the foreigners as people. I have a problem with the foreigners as potential permanent residents of this country.

djpbarry wrote:

…with 60,000 to leave. That would be net emigration of 20,000 people.

That would be very good news if the people emigrating are mostly non-Irish.

If we had only 10 thousand people arriving here next year and 60,000 people left that would mean we would have net emigration of 50,000 people, which would be twice as good. All the more reason for us to cut down on the numbers coming in.

djpbarry wrote:

Yeah…

As far as I’m aware, the vast majority of foreigners in this country are not “out robbing and killing people”. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise?

And you accuse me of trying to construct a straw-man?

djpbarry wrote:

…with a very low population density of approximately 60.3 persons per square kilometre. This will decrease further with net emigration returning next year.

Not really. You forgot to include this year's increase in the population. There have been predictions that we can expect a net increase of 30,000 people this year. Next year's fall in the population will not be enough to make up for this year's increase. We'll still see an increase in population density over the two years. Three steps forward and two steps back is still one step forward.

djpbarry wrote:

We also have lots and lots of empty houses.

Are all those houses on the market and ready for people to move into them?

djpbarry wrote:

Don’t worry – there’s still plenty of room.

It's not lack of space that's the problem, it's the lack of jobs and public services to support the people entering the country. Our schools, hospitals and prisons are already under pressure and the competition for jobs is already bad enough without adding to the problem by bringing in another few thousand people to liven things up. We have too many people here already, we don't need any more. We need to look after the people born on this rock first.

djpbarry wrote:

We’re not continuing to take in “this number of people” – net emigration next year, remember?

And net immigration this year, remember? And the net emigration next year won't be high enough to make up for the increase in the population this year. According to this, they're estimating that we'll see immigration this year of 76,000 with around 45,000 expected to leave. That means that we could expect to see net immigration this year of 30,000 people. Even if we have a net fall of 20,000 next year, that won't be enough to make up for this years increase of 30,000. We'll have a net increase of 10,000 over the two years.

djpbarry wrote:

Don’t worry – the foreigners aren’t taking over just yet.

No, they're not taking over just yet. We still have time to act before it's too late.

djpbarry wrote:

Barring genocide, it most likely will be.

No it won't. If the president of DCU is proved right, the indigenous Irish people could be an ethnic minority in Ireland by 2050. An Ireland in which the native-Irish are in a minority will not be an Irish country.

djpbarry wrote:

Do you honestly think that, 100 years from now, decedents of immigrants who have arrived in Ireland over the last few years, will not consider themselves Irish?

They may consider themselves Irish but they won't be ethnically Irish. They won't be the ethnic descendants of the gaelic Irish people in the same way that we are.

djpbarry wrote:

They won’t, remember? Net emigration.

If there is net emigration next year, and if most of the people leaving are foreigners, then I welcome that and I hope it continues. The net emigration would be higher if we took action to reduce the number of people ag teacht anseo though.

djpbarry · 17-09-2008 4:06pm

I have subjected your post to a rigorous technical analysis and it seems your argument lost all credibility around about here:

O'Morris wrote: »

They won't be the ethnic descendants of the gaelic Irish people in the same way that we are.

Are you trying to tell me that you can trace your ancestry back purely to the ancient inhabitants of this island (whoever they were)?

I see little point in addressing any of the other points in your post, because it is quite evident that you have no interest in discussing the economics of migration, but are rather hung up on the idea of foreigners "polluting" our gene pool; I hate to break it to you, but that's been happening for millennia.

O'Morris · 17-09-2008 5:02pm

djpbarry wrote:

Are you trying to tell me that you can trace your ancestry back purely to the ancient inhabitants of this island (whoever they were)?

I'm not certain but I am very confident that if a DNA test was done that they would find that I'm genetically identical to the oldest of the island's inhabitants that they have specimens for. I've been thinking of getting one of them done but I don't know who to contact about it. I don't see any point anyway as I know what the results would show.

It's the same with most Irish people. The geneticists believe the Irish are almost entirely descended from the original stone-age people who first arrived on the island 7-9 thousand years ago. The Celts, Vikings, Normans and British had very little impact on the gene pool. We really are indigenous to the island.
http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm

djpbarry wrote:

I see little point in addressing any of the other points in your post, because it is quite evident that you have no interest in discussing the economics of migration,

You're right, I don't have any interest in discussing the economics of migration. I've said many times before that immigration is not an economic issue for me. It's a emotional issue to do with national identity.

In saying that though I still think I can put forward a stronger case for restricting immigration in the current economic climate than you can for continuing on with the current levels.

djpbarry wrote:

but are rather hung up on the idea of foreigners "polluting" our gene pool

I would word it slightly differently. I want to preserve the national identity of the Irish people and ensure our survival and advancement as an ethnic group into the future.

sink · 17-09-2008 5:15pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I would word it slightly differently. I want to preserve the national identity of the Irish people and ensure our survival and advancement as an ethnic group into the future.

Impossible in the long term. The entirety of human history has happened in the blink of an eye from the perspective of evolution. In an interconnected interdependent world where ethnic groups have to mix there will be no long term ethnic divides. The forces involved are natural and impossible to stop.

And what makes the ethnic Irish gene pool special and different enough from the rest of humanity for it to be worth preserving? Can you even tell the physical difference between a person who can trace their lineage back to the earliest settlers from someone with Viking or Norman blood?

djpbarry · 17-09-2008 6:01pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I'm not certain but I am very confident that if a DNA test was done that they would find that I'm genetically identical to the oldest of the island's inhabitants that they have specimens for.

You do realise that this is virtually impossible, don't you? If person 'A' is genetically identical to person 'B', that basically means that person 'A' IS person 'B'. Why do you think DNA testing is used in forensics?

O'Morris wrote: »

The geneticists believe the Irish are almost entirely descended from the original stone-age people who first arrived on the island 7-9 thousand years ago. The Celts, Vikings, Normans and British had very little impact on the gene pool. We really are indigenous to the island.
http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm

I think you have misunderstood the point of that article. Just because a particular genetic marker has persisted within a population that does not mean that said population are all genetically identical! That's like saying that everyone with blue eyes is genetically identical.

O'Morris wrote: »

In saying that though I still think I can put forward a stronger case for restricting immigration in the current economic climate than you can for continuing on with the current levels.

I have always maintained that migration is largely self-regulating, as per the ESRI:

ESRI wrote:

As a result of the overall difficulties being forecast for the economy, we expect net outward migration to re-emerge in 2009 and are forecasting a net outflow of 20,000 in that year. Without such an outflow, the rate of unemployment would likely rise above 8 per cent. It seems implausible to us that migratory flows would not react to such a situation. Our thinking on this is influenced by work published in earlier Commentaries which showed how migration flows between Ireland and the UK tended to react to changes in the difference between the rates of unemployment in the two jurisdictions. The reaction was such that any widening of the gap between the rates of unemployment tended to be reduced as a result of the labour flows whereby a long-run stable gap was restored.

Economic activity has declined and so has net inward migration. With rising unemployment, we will soon see a return to net emigration, as I have already stated several times. People aren't going to want to come to Ireland if there are no jobs.

O'Morris · 18-09-2008 10:55am

Sink wrote:

Impossible in the long term.

Maybe it is impossible in the long term, but then everything is impossible in the long-term. The law of entropy can be used to argue for the futility of trying to preserve, conserve or protect anything. In the end everything will disappear so what's the point in trying to prevent nature taking its course?

Protecting endangered species from extinction is impossible because eventually most species will become extinct. Does that mean that we shouldn't make an effort to prevent endangered species from becoming extinct?

We act on the basis of preserving the world we want to live in for as long as possible. We don't have much control over the kind of country Ireland will be in 600 years from now but we do have some control over the kind of country that Ireland will be in 60 years from now. I want us to act to make sure that Ireland is still an ethnically Irish country in 2068.

Sink wrote:

The entirety of human history has happened in the blink of an eye from the perspective of evolution.

Human evolution didn't start with humans. We're as much the product of mammalian and primate evolution as we are the product of human evolution. Our most primal instincts were formed long before our first biped ancestors made an appearance.

Sink wrote:

In an interconnected interdependent world where ethnic groups have to mix there will be no long term ethnic divides.

I don't think so. Multicultural societies are as ethnically divided as any other. I think tribalism and xenophobia are so deeply ingrained in human nature that it would be very naive to expect that the world's population will ever be free from ethnic divisions.

Sink wrote:

The forces involved are natural and impossible to stop.

I don't think they are impossible to stop. The Japanese are managing to stop those forces and most other European countries are doing a much better job at stopping them than we are. The Jew have managed to resist the forces of assimilation for thousands of years and so I don't think it's impossible for us to hang on for at least another few centuries.

Sink wrote:

And what makes the ethnic Irish gene pool special and different enough from the rest of humanity for it to be worth preserving?

There's nothing objectively special about it. It doesn't need to be special for it to be worth preserving. It only needs to be special in our eyes for it to be worth preserving.

There's nothing objectively special about Australian Aborigines but that's no reason why they they shouldn't try to hold on to their culture and their identity. Just as we recognise biodiversity to be a good thing in itself, I think we should also recognise global ethnic diversity to be a good thing in itself.

Sink wrote:

Can you even tell the physical difference between a person who can trace their lineage back to the earliest settlers from someone with Viking or Norman blood?

No, the small numbers of Celts, Vikings and Normans who came to this country were fully assimilated centuries ago. Ethnically we're all the descendants of the indigenous pre-Celtic Irish who have been (and still are) the majority ethnic group on the island of Ireland for most of its history.

djpbarry wrote:

You do realise that this is virtually impossible, don't you? If person 'A' is genetically identical to person 'B'

Well now, come on, you know I didn't mean literally identical in every sense. I meant genetically identical in the sense that you're genetically identical to your brother, in the sense that you share the same ancestors, you look the same and you have the same genetic history. We are genetically identical to the original inhabitants of Ireland in that same sense of the term.

djpbarry wrote:

that basically means that person 'A' IS person 'B'

Either that or they're identical twins.

djpbarry wrote:

I think you have misunderstood the point of that article. Just because a particular genetic marker has persisted within a population that does not mean that said population are all genetically identical!

Well alright then, lets forget all the talk about being genetically identical. Our gene pool is largely identical to the gene pool of Ireland's first inhabitants and so in that sense it would be fair to say that we're the direct descendants of Ireland's first inhabitants.

djpbarry wrote:

Economic activity has declined and so has net inward migration.

It may have declined but if the ESRI are proved right, net inward migration this year could be as high as 30,000. As gross inward migration into Britain each year is around 200,000, and as they have ten times the population we have, that would mean that our net immigration is 50% higher than our closest neighbour's gross immigration. And this is in a year of recession. Net inward migration is not falling at the same rate as the fall in economic activity.

djpbarry wrote:

People aren't going to want to come to Ireland if there are no jobs.

I disagree, there will always be jobs and the scarcity of something doesn't have an automatic effect on people's desire to possess it. People are still going to want to come to this country as long as the average wage is higher here than it is back in their own country and as long as they have full access to our jobs market.

You seem to think that there's a certain number of jobs reserved specially for the immigrants and that once those jobs dry up that that they'll stop coming. That's not how immigration into Ireland works. There are no jobs for us and jobs for the immigrants. Our jobs are their jobs. Any new vacancy on the jobs market can be applied for by an immigrant just as it can be applied for by an unemployed Irish man.

A recently arrived Pole, just off the plane, can go straight to a building site and offer his services at a rate that an unemployed Irish labourer simply can't afford to match. The recession will not change that. We're still going to see large numbers of people arriving here unless our government takes action and applies some restrictions.

oscarBravo · 18-09-2008 11:34am

O'Morris wrote: »

The Jew have managed to resist the forces of assimilation for thousands of years and so I don't think it's impossible for us to hang on for at least another few centuries.

I'm reminded of a story told by a character in Howard Fast's book The Outsider: there's a chaplain in the army who is Jewish, and also happens to be Japanese. He meets another Jew and remarks to him, "you don't look Jewish".

No, the small numbers of Celts, Vikings and Normans who came to this country were fully assimilated centuries ago. Ethnically we're all the descendants of the indigenous pre-Celtic Irish who have been (and still are) the majority ethnic group on the island of Ireland for most of its history.

I'm confused. If they were assimilated, then they have contributed their genetic and ethnic identities to what it means to be Irish. If they can do so, why can't Poles? Or Nigerians? Or Japanese? Or Jews? Or Japanese Jews?

My grandmother was English. Am I Irish?

A recently arrived Pole, just off the plane, can go straight to a building site and offer his services at a rate that an unemployed Irish labourer simply can't afford to match.

Why? Do Polish people eat less than Irish people?

O'Morris · 18-09-2008 12:10pm

oscarBravo wrote:

If they can do so, why can't Poles? Or Nigerians? Or Japanese? Or Jews? Or Japanese Jews?

Because there are so many of them coming in and because they're so ethnically different from the majority population here already. Previous waves of immigrants were few in number and they were mostly of the same western European stock as us. Because of that it was easy for them to blend in and to identify themselves with the native population.

You'll notice that I didn't include the Ulster Scots in the list along with the Celts, Vikings and Normans. Why do you think I left them out?

oscarBravo wrote:

My grandmother was English. Am I Irish?

Irishness as an ethnic designation (as opposed to a legal one) is a subjective term and so if someone perceives themselves to be Irish and if they are treated as Irish by other people then it's fair to consider them Irish. You don't seem like the kind of gent who is racy of the soil so I don't know what you're attitude is towards this country.

Would you not rather call yourself European than Irish?

oscarBravo wrote:

Why? Do Polish people eat less than Irish people?

I don't know their average daily calorie intake is compared with Irish people but there was a good article in the Irish Independent a few days ago about why the immigrants are more inclined to "rough if up" than the native workers (see here).

sink · 18-09-2008 12:30pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Maybe it is impossible in the long term, but then everything is impossible in the long-term. The law of entropy can be used to argue for the futility of trying to preserve, conserve or protect anything. In the end everything will disappear so what's the point in trying to prevent nature taking its course?

Protecting endangered species from extinction is impossible because eventually most species will become extinct. Does that mean that we shouldn't make an effort to prevent endangered species from becoming extinct?

We act on the basis of preserving the world we want to live in for as long as possible. We don't have much control over the kind of country Ireland will be in 600 years from now but we do have some control over the kind of country that Ireland will be in 60 years from now. I want us to act to make sure that Ireland is still an ethnically Irish country in 2068.

incomparable as different and unique species play essential roles in natural ecosystems. Ecosystems that we rely upon to survive as they provide us with clean air, water and recycle our waste. A large chunk of biomedical science is based up the study of ecosystems and a loss of ecosystems is a equivalent to a loss of knowledge. No similar such argument can be made for the mixing of ethnic human groups.

O'Morris wrote: »

Human evolution didn't start with humans. We're as much the product of mammalian and primate evolution as we are the product of human evolution. Our most primal instincts were formed long before our first biped ancestors made an appearance.

I was talking about human history which is the history of culture and civilisation only about 10,000 years not the entirety of human evolution which started some 3 billion years ago.

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't think so. Multicultural societies are as ethnically divided as any other. I think tribalism and xenophobia are so deeply ingrained in human nature that it would be very naive to expect that the world's population will ever be free from ethnic divisions.

In 60 years since the end of WWII we have then the homogenisation of advanced cultures to a massive extent. This is set to continue for as long as humans live and in a century or two the entire globe will be one universal culture with only small regional difference.

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't think they are impossible to stop. The Japanese are managing to stop those forces and most other European countries are doing a much better job at stopping them than we are. The Jew have managed to resist the forces of assimilation for thousands of years and so I don't think it's impossible for us to hang on for at least another few centuries.

Modern Japanese culture little resembles the Japanese culture before WWII and the culture back then little resembled the culture at begging of the 19th century. Sure you can see influences of traditional Japanese customs in today's Japan but you see an even greater influence of American and western culture and over here you can see the influence of Asian cultures and others from around the globe. This homogenisation of culture is being facilitated by tv/films, music, trade, travel and migration and in the last 5-10 years by the internet. In what way do you think the Japanese are managing to stop these forces? It is impossible for the state put a stop to them unless it closes in upon itself like North Korea. Any attempt to do so is purely driven by an irrational fear of the outside.

O'Morris wrote: »

There's nothing objectively special about it. It doesn't need to be special for it to be worth preserving. It only needs to be special in our eyes for it to be worth preserving.

Will the next generation of O'Morris's feel the same? Doubtful as history has shown that as the generations progress they become more accepting of subsequent generation of immigrants. I can't imagine your grand kids treating 3rd generation ethnic Polish living here any different from ethnic Irish.

O'Morris wrote: »

There's nothing objectively special about Australian Aborigines but that's no reason why they they shouldn't try to hold on to their culture and their identity. Just as we recognise biodiversity to be a good thing in itself, I think we should also recognise global ethnic diversity to be a good thing in itself.

Culture is not a static thing. Living culture evolves at a lightning pace and can dramatically shift in a generation or two. It has been happening since the dawn of civilisation. The only way to preserve culture is in historic records but all cultures evolve or die out. You don't see many ancient Romans walking about the place today, even in Rome!

O'Morris wrote: »

No, the small numbers of Celts, Vikings and Normans who came to this country were fully assimilated centuries ago. Ethnically we're all the descendants of the indigenous pre-Celtic Irish who have been (and still are) the majority ethnic group on the island of Ireland for most of its history.

And the Celts, Vikings and Normans added their genes to the Irish gene pool and their culture and technology merged with the native culture. Irish culture did not remain static during those periods it evolved and took on many characteristics of those imported cultures. You don't see them as foreign today because they have been part of our culture for generations but your great, great, great .... grandparents will have have seen them as strange and foreign. If you did a genetic survey of Ireland to find Celtic, Viking and Norman genetic history you would find it just as prevalent as that from early settlers. One genetic line doesn't have to replace the other they simply merge. You might have genetic markers that date back to the earliest settlers but you probably also have genetic markers from the Celts, Vikings, Normans and probably even the Angles.

Roy Batty · 18-09-2008 1:31pm

Quote:
A recently arrived Pole, just off the plane, can go straight to a building site and offer his services at a rate that an unemployed Irish labourer simply can't afford to match.

Surely the fact that Irish people are paying abolutely massive mortgages (on modest houses) is one key reason why Polish people can work cheaper?

oscarBravo · 18-09-2008 1:32pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Because there are so many of them coming in and because they're so ethnically different from the majority population here already. Previous waves of immigrants were few in number and they were mostly of the same western European stock as us. Because of that it was easy for them to blend in and to identify themselves with the native population.

You'll notice that I didn't include the Ulster Scots in the list along with the Celts, Vikings and Normans. Why do you think I left them out?

I know why you left them out: they're "like us". Your problem is with people who are "not like us". That's pretty much the textbook definition of a xenophobe.

Irishness as an ethnic designation (as opposed to a legal one) is a subjective term and so if someone perceives themselves to be Irish and if they are treated as Irish by other people then it's fair to consider them Irish. You don't seem like the kind of gent who is racy of the soil so I don't know what you're attitude is towards this country.

Would you not rather call yourself European than Irish?

I am Irish. I'm also European. I'm also human. All of these are accidents of birth.

If someone whose parents are Nigerian is born here, considers himself Irish, and his friends consider him Irish: is he Irish by your definition?

If someone who has one Irish and one Polish parent has a child here, who considers herself Irish, and her friends consider her Irish: is she Irish?

djpbarry · 18-09-2008 2:37pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Protecting endangered species from extinction is impossible because eventually most species will become extinct. Does that mean that we shouldn't make an effort to prevent endangered species from becoming extinct?

Gene flow does not cause extinction; poor analogy.

O'Morris wrote: »

We don't have much control over the kind of country Ireland will be in 600 years from now but we do have some control over the kind of country that Ireland will be in 60 years from now.

I think we can safely say that Ireland in 2068 will be rather different to Ireland in 2008. In the same way that Ireland in 1948 was a vastly different place to Ireland today. The only way to prevent these changes, as sink has already said, is to cut yourself off from the outside world, ala Cuba (well, Castro).

O'Morris wrote: »

I think tribalism and xenophobia are so deeply ingrained in human nature that it would be very naive to expect that the world's population will ever be free from ethnic divisions.

Why? Because people like you want to enforce them?

O'Morris wrote: »

There's nothing objectively special about Australian Aborigines but that's no reason why they they shouldn't try to hold on to their culture and their identity. Just as we recognise biodiversity to be a good thing in itself, I think we should also recognise global ethnic diversity to be a good thing in itself.

Genetic variability is also a good thing; without variability, it becomes difficult for a population to adapt to changes.

O'Morris wrote: »

No, the small numbers of Celts, Vikings and Normans who came to this country were fully assimilated centuries ago.

Which would mean that they contributed to our gene pool, no?

O'Morris wrote: »

Well now, come on, you know I didn't mean literally identical in every sense. I meant genetically identical in the sense that you're genetically identical to your brother…

I’m not genetically identical to my brother; similar, maybe, but certainly not identical.

O'Morris wrote: »

We are genetically identical to the original inhabitants of Ireland in that same sense of the term.

No, we’re not. Not even close. How could we possibly be given the waves of different invaders and settlers that have come to Ireland over the years, contributing to our gene pool? Not to mention the fact that many people in Ireland have non-Irish ancestors (most commonly British). I myself have British, French, Danish and Irish ancestors (that I am aware of); I suppose you’d be able to tell by my appearance :rolleyes:?

O'Morris wrote: »

Either that or they're identical twins.

Nope; identical twins are not genetically identical. Their traits and physical appearances are not exactly the same; although they have nearly identical DNA, environmental conditions both inside the womb and throughout their lives influence the switching on and off of various genes.

O'Morris wrote: »

Our gene pool is largely identical to the gene pool of Ireland's first inhabitants and so in that sense it would be fair to say that we're the direct descendants of Ireland's first inhabitants.

NO IT IS NOT! How could it be? With all the people that have come and gone from this island over the last 9,000 years, along with all the genetic mutations that have taken place over that time, how could the gene pool possibly be identical? If everyone on this island had the same genetic makeup as the people who were living here 9,000 years ago, it’s quite possible we would have been wiped out by some humble pathogen by now.

O'Morris wrote: »

Net inward migration is not falling at the same rate as the fall in economic activity.

I’m not sure why anyone would expect it to?

O'Morris wrote: »

I disagree, there will always be jobs and the scarcity of something doesn't have an automatic effect on people's desire to possess it. People are still going to want to come to this country as long as the average wage is higher here than it is back in their own country and as long as they have full access to our jobs market.

Really? If you were thinking of heading off to a country where you know the average wage is significantly higher than where you live, would you not be ever-so-slightly put off if unemployment was rather high, especially if the cost of living is much higher than what you’re used to? I know I would.

O'Morris wrote: »

Any new vacancy on the jobs market can be applied for by an immigrant just as it can be applied for by an unemployed Irish man.

Wow, really? :rolleyes:

O'Morris wrote: »

A recently arrived Pole, just off the plane, can go straight to a building site and offer his services at a rate that an unemployed Irish labourer simply can't afford to match.

Well, that would totally depend on the current circumstances of both men, wouldn’t it? Suppose the Irish guy is single but the Polish guy has a family?

O'Morris wrote: »

Because there are so many of them coming in and because they're so ethnically different from the majority population here already.

You mean they look and sound different? Did the Vikings not look and sound different to the natives of early medieval Ireland?

O'Morris wrote: »

Previous waves of immigrants were few in number…

Where they? I was under the impression that many of the larger cities and towns in Ireland were originally Viking settlements. Why did they need so many settlements if there were so few of them?

O'Morris wrote: »

Because of that it was easy for them to blend in and to identify themselves with the native population.

You were around when the Vikings invaded, were you?

O'Morris · 18-09-2008 5:18pm

Sink wrote:

incomparable as different and unique species play essential roles in natural ecosystems. Ecosystems that we rely upon to survive as they provide us with clean air, water and recycle our waste.

What role in our ecosystem do the Panda bears play and would it cause any serious problems for us if they became extinct? If the answer is no, should we therefore allow the Panda bear to become extinct?

Sink wrote:

A large chunk of biomedical science is based up the study of ecosystems and a loss of ecosystems is a equivalent to a loss of knowledge. No similar such argument can be made for the mixing of ethnic human groups.

I don't accept that the driving force behind the desire to preserve the world's biodiversity is the medical and scientific benefits that can result from it. Biological and ethnic diversity makes the world a much better and a much more interesting place to live and that alone justifies our efforts to want to preserve it.

I want the Inuit people, and the San people of the Kalahari, and indigenous Irish people, and the Masai warrior people in kenya and the Australian Aborigines and all those other native Amazonian tribes out foreign to survive into the next century as much, in not more, than I want Panda bears to survive into the next century. Whether or not we benefit economically or scientifically from their continued existence is irrelevant.

Sink wrote:

In 60 years since the end of WWII we have then the homogenisation of advanced cultures to a massive extent. This is set to continue for as long as humans live and in a century or two the entire globe will be one universal culture with only small regional difference.

Maybe it will, culture is distinct from ethnicity though.

Sink wrote:

Modern Japanese culture little resembles the Japanese culture before WWII and the culture back then little resembled the culture at begging of the 19th century.

But the Japanese people today are the same as the Japanese people at the beginning of the 19th century, as will be the people at the beginning of the 22nd century. It's the people that I want to preserve more than the culture.

Sink wrote:

Sure you can see influences of traditional Japanese customs in today's Japan but you see an even greater influence of American and western culture and over here you can see the influence of Asian cultures and others from around the globe. This homogenisation of culture is being facilitated by tv/films, music, trade, travel and migration and in the last 5-10 years by the internet.

You're confusing culture and ethnicity. I want to preserve our national and ethnic identity. Culture is of secondary importance.

Sink wrote:

In what way do you think the Japanese are managing to stop these forces?

I don't think they are trying to stop those forces and that's not the forces I was talking about. I was talking about the forces of multiculturalism. The Japanese want Japan to be a Japanese country in a hundred years from now and that's why they have no net immigration. I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now and that's why I want no net immigration into this country.

Sink wrote:

It is impossible for the state put a stop to them unless it closes in upon itself like North Korea. Any attempt to do so is purely driven by an irrational fear of the outside.

Japan is a modern, liberal, technologically advanced democracy that is about as far from resembling North Korea as it's possible to be.

Sink wrote:

And the Celts, Vikings and Normans added their genes to the Irish gene pool and their culture and technology merged with the native culture.

Their influence on the Irish population was mainly cultural and technological and not genetic. In the same that western influence on Japan at the end of the nineteenth century was cultural and technological rather than genetic.

Sink wrote:

Irish culture did not remain static during those periods it evolved and took on many characteristics of those imported cultures.

It did and I think that was a good thing (apart from losing ar teanga fein) and I hope it continues.

I want Ireland to be an open, modern country receptive to new technology and new ideas and where we have ready access to the best that other countries and cultures are capable of producing. I think it's possible to be that kind of country while still preserving our ethnic identity as a people. Japan is that kind of country and I want Ireland to be like Japan, only with better quality television.

Sink wrote:

If you did a genetic survey of Ireland to find Celtic, Viking and Norman genetic history you would find it just as prevalent as that from early settlers.

I don't think so. Maybe I'm not fully up to date on the latest research on this but my understanding is that the genetic evidence shows the Irish to be mostly the descendants of the original stone-Age people who came to this country 9,000 years ago. External influence has been almost negligible.

It used to be thought that the Irish were descended from Celts who arrived here during the Iron-Age. That theory has now been discredited. There was no evidence of a mass influx of Celts from the continent at any stage in our history.

Sink wrote:

One genetic line doesn't have to replace the other they simply merge. You might have genetic markers that date back to the earliest settlers but you probably also have genetic markers from the Celts, Vikings, Normans and probably even the Angles.

I probably do. If I do, I don't think it's enough to make me any different from the rest of the indigenous Irish population or radically different from the ancient stone-age Irish either.

O'Morris · 18-09-2008 5:21pm

oscarBravo wrote:

I know why you left them out: they're "like us".

No, I left them out because they don't belong in a list of foreigners who have been successfully assimilated into the Irish population. Most Ulster protestants don't consider themselves Irish. Most people descended from the Normans and the Vikings do but not the protestants up in the north.

The reason the orangemen didn't assimilate into the Irish population while the Vikings did was because there were so many of them and because they were so heavily concentrated in one part of the country. I believe the same will happen anois leis na daoine ag teacht anseo.

oscarBravo wrote:

Your problem is with people who are "not like us".

It wouldn't make any difference to me if the immigrants coming to this country were as similar to us as the Scottish, Welsh or English are. I would still be opposed to this level of immigration because I don't think we can successfully assimilate this number of people into our population. We weren't able to assimilate the Scottish settlers and they're not that different from us. If we can't assimilate people from the neigbhouring island what chance do we have of assimilating tens of thousands of people from the other side of the world?

oscarBravo wrote:

I am Irish. I'm also European. I'm also human. All of these are accidents of birth.

But wouldn't you consider them to be happy accidents at the same time though? I sure as hell do.

I don't believe in God but there isn't a day that I don't get down on my knees and thank Jesus for having made old Mac an Irishman.

oscarBravo wrote:

If someone whose parents are Nigerian is born here, considers himself Irish, and his friends consider him Irish: is he Irish by your definition?

Absolutely. If he identifies himself with the indigenous Irish ethnic group more than he does with any other ethnic group and if the indidigenous Irish ethnic group considers him one of their own then yes he is an Irishman by my definition.

I have an Australian acquaintance who said to me that his ancestors arrived in Australia thousands of years ago. I was a bit surprised to hear him saying that as he looks very European and he didn't appear to have any aborigine ancestry. He assured me however that his people have been so fully absorbed into the indigenous Australian population that they identify completely with it's pre-European inhabitants. He also claims to have a brilliant memory on account of how his ancestors were such brilliant trackers and hunters.

oscarBravo wrote:

If someone who has one Irish and one Polish parent has a child here, who considers herself Irish, and her friends consider her Irish: is she Irish?

Yes, as with the Nigerian, if she identifies with the indigenous Irish ethnic group more than any other ethnic group, if she considers Irish history to be the history of her ancestors and if the indigenous Irish consider her to be one of their own then she would be considered Irish.

O'Morris · 18-09-2008 5:24pm

djpbarry wrote:

Why? Because people like you want to enforce them?

I don't want to enforce them, I want to obey the wisdom of the blood.

djpbarry wrote:

Genetic variability is also a good thing; without variability, it becomes difficult for a population to adapt to changes.

I think the native Irish population has enough genetic variability to adapt to change. If there is a massive flu pandemic that wipes out 80% of the population, the 20% with the resistance will survive and will carry on and in time the tribe will recover.

djpbarry wrote:

Which would mean that they contributed to our gene pool, no?

Yes, the contributed to our gene-pool. The evidence seems to show that their contribution was very small though.

djpbarry wrote:

No, we’re not. Not even close.

Yes, we are. Very close. Read this

djpbarry wrote:

How could we possibly be given the waves of different invaders and settlers that have come to Ireland over the years, contributing to our gene pool?

It's a mystery to me. I would have expected their contribution to have been much greater but that seems not to have been the case. The geneticists believe that the Irish are still mainly the descendants of the original Stone-Age people who arrived here thousands of years ago.

djpbarry wrote:

NO IT IS NOT!

YES IT IS!

Read what the experts have to say (here). We are the same people that were living on the island 9,000 years ago.

The prevalence of ancient genes in Ireland suggests that the Irish have largely maintained their pre-Neolithic genetic heritage. There has been little genetic influence from outside the country since the first people came to Ireland almost 9,000 years ago.

djpbarry wrote:

How could it be?

I don't know. I'm not an expert on genetics. I'm only repeating what the experts have written about it.

djpbarry wrote:

I myself have British, French, Danish and Irish ancestors

Do you mean French as in Norman and Danish as in Viking? If you have French and Danish (as distinct from Norman and Viking) ancestors then you can't claim to a typical Irishman. Most Irish people that I know, including myself, have all Irish ancestors all the way back to prehistory.

djpbarry wrote:

I was under the impression that many of the larger cities and towns in Ireland were originally Viking settlements. Why did they need so many settlements if there were so few of them?

They weren't permanent settlements. They were small trading bases. It took many centuries before they grew to anything like the towns and cities they are today. Most of the vikings in Ireland were people who were just passing through. They came to Ireland first to raid and then to trade. Only a small minority of them settled here permanently.

A lot of the Vikings left the country as well after our boys gave them a good kicking at Clontarf.

I remember there was a programme about the Vikings on BBC a few years ago called Blood of the vikings. They found no significant Scandinavian influence in the Irish population. It disappoints me to say that as I would love to be able to say I'm descended from a Viking.

sink · 18-09-2008 6:20pm

O'Morris wrote: »

What role in our ecosystem do the Panda bears play and would it cause any serious problems for us if they became extinct? If the answer is no, should we therefore allow the Panda bear to become extinct?

If you think nothing can be learned from Panda Bears then maybe you should read a few of these scientific journals.

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Carter, T. 1937. The giant panda. Animal Kingdom, 40:6-14.

Castillo, E. 1982. Mexico's baby panda. Caminos de aire, Mexicana de Aviacion, March-April, 14-24.

Chin, H. 1979. China's first baby giant panda reproduced by artificial insemination. International Zoo News No.157, 26:8-10.

Ching, C. 1974. On the systematic position of the giant panda, Ailuropoda melanoleuca (David). Acta Zoologica Sinica, 20:191-200.

Chorn, J., and R.S. Hoffmann. 1978. Ailuropoda melanoleuca. Mammalian Species, 110:1-6.

Cohn, J.P. 1990. Genetics for wildlife conservation. BioScience, 40:167-170.

Colbert, E. 1938. The panda: A study in emigration. Natural History, 42:33-39.

Dierenfeld, E.S., H.F. Hintz, J.B. Robertson, P.J. Van Soest, and O.T. Oftedal. 1982.
Utilization of bamboo by the giant panda. Journal of Nutrition, 112:636-641.

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I got all that in one very quick search.

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't accept that the driving force behind the desire to preserve the world's biodiversity is the medical and scientific benefits that can result from it. Biological and ethnic diversity makes the world a much better and a much more interesting place to live and that alone justifies our efforts to want to preserve it.

Maybe so but the scientific knowledge on offer adds impetus to the preservation of the diversity of life. Unlike different ethnic groups which offer no benefit outside of some vague emotional attachment. When two ethnicities mix the genetic knowledge is no lost, it is carried through all of their descendants.

O'Morris wrote: »

I want the Inuit people, and the San people of the Kalahari, and indigenous Irish people, and the Masai warrior people in kenya and the Australian Aborigines and all those other native Amazonian tribes out foreign to survive into the next century as much, in not more, than I want Panda bears to survive into the next century. Whether or not we benefit economically or scientifically from their continued existence is irrelevant.

Maybe it will, culture is distinct from ethnicity though.

But the Japanese people today are the same as the Japanese people at the beginning of the 19th century, as will be the people at the beginning of the 22nd century. It's the people that I want to preserve more than the culture.

Culture and ethnicity while different are very much related. You have a strange way of looking at things, it is the inverse to how I look at it. I see the recording and preservation of culture records as more important than maintaining pure genetic heritage. I also can also see the benefit of recording the evolution of the human genome but I see no benefit in trying to preserve it unchanged. I still haven't grasped why you bestow so much importance towards what can only be seen through an atomic force microscope.

O'Morris wrote: »

You're confusing culture and ethnicity. I want to preserve our national and ethnic identity. Culture is of secondary importance.

Ethnicity can be preserved in a test tube.

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't think they are trying to stop those forces and that's not the forces I was talking about. I was talking about the forces of multiculturalism. The Japanese want Japan to be a Japanese country in a hundred years from now and that's why they have no net immigration. I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now and that's why I want no net immigration into this country.

Japan is a modern, liberal, technologically advanced democracy that is about as far from resembling North Korea as it's possible to be.

They also have a higher death rate than birth rate resulting in a declining population and their demographics are entirely lopsided towards middle aged and older. The consequences of which will be economic collapse in a few decades if they don't have a significant amount of immigration.

O'Morris wrote: »

Their influence on the Irish population was mainly cultural and technological and not genetic. In the same that western influence on Japan at the end of the nineteenth century was cultural and technological rather than genetic.

Of course we were influenced by their genealogy as we interbred with them.

Ireland will always be Ireland and culturally will always have uniquely Irish traits regardless of the genetic make up of the population which is what I would place more importance upon.

I have Scottish, English and even French blood if you go back far enough. Should I be barred from breeding with any 'ethnically pure' Irish women for fear of contaminating the gene pool?

I see no inherent worth in racial purity which cannot be preserved in a test tube. I do not define people by their genetic make up. What genes a person has inherited from their ancestors makes no difference to me. If you go back far enough we all share a common ancestor and the human population will continue to interbreed across genetic lines without suffering any loss and gaining genetic strength. My own personal interpretation of your opinions is that you are a racist for what is a racist if not someone who believes in racial purity?

sink · 18-09-2008 6:33pm

O'Morris wrote: »

Absolutely. If he identifies himself with the indigenous Irish ethnic group more than he does with any other ethnic group and if the indidigenous Irish ethnic group considers him one of their own then yes he is an Irishman by my definition.

I have an Australian acquaintance who said to me that his ancestors arrived in Australia thousands of years ago. I was a bit surprised to hear him saying that as he looks very European and he didn't appear to have any aborigine ancestry. He assured me however that his people have been so fully absorbed into the indigenous Australian population that they identify completely with it's pre-European inhabitants. He also claims to have a brilliant memory on account of how his ancestors were such brilliant trackers and hunters.

Yes, as with the Nigerian, if she identifies with the indigenous Irish ethnic group more than any other ethnic group, if she considers Irish history to be the history of her ancestors and if the indigenous Irish consider her to be one of their own then she would be considered Irish.

Here you switch tract. Earlier you were going on about ethnic purity having greater importance than culture and now you consider culture to have greater importance than ethnicity. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

sink · 18-09-2008 6:39pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I think the native Irish population has enough genetic variability to adapt to change. If there is a massive flu pandemic that wipes out 80% of the population, the 20% with the resistance will survive and will carry on and in time the tribe will recover.

Genetic diversity provides greater immunity from disease as offspring retain both parents immunity and if they are from more diverse backgrounds they will have a broader spectrum of immunities.

djpbarry · 18-09-2008 11:22pm

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't want to enforce them, I want to obey the wisdom of the blood.

I have no idea what that means, but you have made it quite clear that you want to enforce division along ethnic lines.

O'Morris wrote: »

I think the native Irish population has enough genetic variability to adapt to change.

In your expert opinion, eh?

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes, the contributed to our gene-pool. The evidence seems to show that their contribution was very small though.

Evidence I have encountered would appear to suggest otherwise:

“Scandinavian PAH mutations (F299C, R408Q, Y414C and G46S) accounted for 6.1% of the mutant alleles detected in this study while G272X, the most common Norwegian mutation, was not observed. Mutations associated with the north-west coast of Norway (F299C, R408Q and Y414C) were more common than those associated with south-eastern Norway. This supports the view that the Scandinavian contribution to the Irish gene-pool was significant and mediated largely by Viking incursions from north-western Norway. ”

O'Morris wrote: »

Yes, we are. Very close. Read this

Yeah, you posted that already and I already pointed out the error in your interpretation.

O'Morris wrote: »

Read what the experts have to say (here). We are the same people that were living on the island 9,000 years ago.

The prevalence of ancient genes in Ireland suggests that the Irish have largely maintained their pre-Neolithic genetic heritage. There has been little genetic influence from outside the country since the first people came to Ireland almost 9,000 years ago.

Two things to note; firstly, over 20% of men in this country do not have the haplogroup 1 gene – are they not “really” Irish? Also, does that mean that anyone who possesses this gene is genetically Irish, whether they hold an Irish passport or not?

Secondly, as I said earlier, just because one particular genetic marker persists in a population, it does not mean that there have been no other genetic influences.

I'm not going to argue the science anymore because by your own admission you don't follow it and besides, this is a politics thread.

O'Morris wrote: »

Most Irish people that I know, including myself, have all Irish ancestors all the way back to prehistory.

You’re a funny guy. Really.

Do you have any idea how incredibly unlikely that is?

For arguments sake, let’s suppose you’re right. Let’s suppose your ancestors came to Ireland 9,000 years ago – that would make you the descendent of immigrants, wouldn’t it?

Noel Edmonds calls for UK's borders to be shut

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