Squat, Deadlift imbalance

DM-BM

I was wondering if you guys could have a look at my squats and deadlifts, as i feeel my deadlift should be a lot stronger than it is at present.

I'm doing Starting Strenght, and at the moment it is getting hard to keep adding weight, but I'm going to eat as much as possible and rest a bit more, to try and squeeze as much as possible out of linear progression.

With the squats, i am increasing the weight by just 1 kg at this stage, so that's 3kg a week, but i can see that my knees are starting to drift forward at the bottom, and also my left knee sometimes comes in on the way up. I'm not sure if i need the belt, i just figured that i will need one at some stage, and wanted to learn how to use it, it feels very different to what i expected. Here is all 3 sets, i think the first is the worst.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eTLcj94t-w&feature=user


The deadlift i think should be much stronger, i don't know if it's worth mentioning, that the yellow plates in the video are 450mm diameter, and it was my first time using them, so until now all my deadlifts and power cleans were done from the height of the next biggest plate that is on the bar. My grip went at the end of the last rep, you'll see as i put the weight down i bent my knees before my hips, which i don't normally do, but could really feel my grip going, and once it got past my knees, the bar actually sliped out of my hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbZTUUYxsOQ&feature=user

So any advice?

kevpants

Good work they aren't bad numbers at all. God the way you started the thread I thought you were gonna be alot worse.

There are better squatters round here than me but I can't see much wrong with the squats. Your form may be breaking down slightly because you're pushing yourself. You get stronger, form gets better.

On the deadlift, it may be the angle of the camera but is your grip/stance a little wide? If it's too wide it means you're effectively lifting from deeper to a higher point adding inches to the path of the bar. Maybe it's the angle though.

If you want a good assistance exercise for these try some good mornings, you definitely have the set up there to do them.

DM-BM

My shins are just inside the knurling on either side of the bar, so i doubt that is too wide, is it?
I did slightly widen my grip on that lift, but only enough to keep my arms locked when coming of the floor, as i noticed before that i had a tendancy to unlock my elbows at the start of deads and power cleans.

BossArky

I cannot see your left hand on the deadlifts. Are you using a double overhand grip or a mixed grip?

If you are using a double overhand grip then perhaps switching to a mixed grip will allow you to lift a bit more before your grip goes. I think it helped me lift a good 10-20% more.

If you are doing a 5x5 then try the first 3 sets with double overhand and then the last two with mixed grip (alternating right/left under) so that you don't drop it as your grip tires.

brianthebard

The only problem I could see with the squats might be that you are jiggling your legs/feet around a bit between reps, and possibly taking a bit too long between reps. Just a thought.
I was also thinking your feet and grip were a bit wide on the deadlift, are your feet shoulder width or narrower? Your arms should be straight down afaik, they seem to be moved out towards the plates slightly, which as mentioned makes the rom longer. Also try to drive your feet into the ground with the dead, if you aren't already doing that. (all imo obv!)

DM-BM

@ BossArky

I'm using double overhand grip, any time i tried a mixed grip it just didn't feel right, but maybe i should give it another go.
As for 5x5, ha ha i wish, no it's starting strenght so just 1 work set for the deadlift.

@ brianthebard

I know what you mean about the jiggling about, but the lenght of time between reps is just down to the fact that the weight is bloody heavy for me at the moment.
With the deadlift, yeah my feet are about shoulder width, but my arms can't go straight down, they are slightly out to the sides to clear my knees.

Thanks for the replies so far.

brianthebard

That's totally understandable that you find the squats hard, but I think by moving about like that you are using up energy keeping the weight up and stuff, that would be better used squatting and getting the weight off your back.
For the deads, maybe move your feet even closer together, I know when I moved them in a wee bit before I felt a lot more of a push from my legs. Hmm, that's not a good description, but it just all felt a bit more solid. Also chalk for your grip if you aren't using it already.

Just looked at the squat vid again, is the bar in a comfortable position on your back? Could it move lower at all? Could your hands be brought in closer? Maybe push your elbows forward a bit as well? not always the easiest thing to do but it can help.

DM-BM

The bar feels fairly comfortable where it is now, although it used to be a bit lower, but it was causing a really strange pain in my left shoulder, with pain shooting down to my elbow,and my elbow felt as if i hit my funny bone hard.
This was having a negative affect on any pressing movements, so now I try to position he bar as low as I can take it, but without it affecting other lifts.

With regard to moving around between reps, i don't think i'm actually aware of it while i'm doing it, but it's something that i can now concentrate on.

Hanley

First off, nice shoes. Bastid.

The squat's looked really good. Pretty much text book starting strength!! Bar position looked good, not up on your neck, but not exactly low bar either. Elbow position was pretty decent too. I know it says in the book to pick a spot 6-8 feet in front of you on the ground and look towards it, but I personally think it's a terrible idea. All the big squatters I know would say the same. It's really important to keep your head up and drive it back into the bar. It'll give you a lot more power thru the transition (which is where you seem to be stalling). Next time you're squatting, as you come out of the hole try driving your head up and back. It should give you thru the sticking point a bit easier.

The deadlifts look really easy and under lots of control, but ditched the heeled shoes. You're better with something flat soled, or even just your socks. The heels throw you forward, put your hips up higher and your shoulders in front of the bar (exactly what you want if you're doing a clean, but not what you want for deadlifts!!). You can see your hips are up really high as a result and you're stiff legging most of the pulls. If you can get your hips down a bit, shoulders behind the bar and drive your head up you should be good pull A LOT more (switching to mixed grip and a bit of chalk will help a lot too). Those ones looked really solid.

And don't be so quick to give up on linear periodisation. Some of the strongest guys I know still train that way. Just because the weights stop going up after 6-8 weeks doesn't mean you've maxed it out. You just need to drop back and build it up, do more sets or adjust the rep range. My squat STILL responds best to progressive overload believe it or not.

DM-BM

Not just nice shoes Hanley, magic shoes, doubled my squat just by wearing them, ha ha.

It's interesting what you say about looking up during the squat, any pictures or videos I've seen of powerlifters squating, they have their heads as far back as they can go. I think Mark Rippetoe instructs head down, to try to get beginners to use hip drive, he feels with their head up they can tend to do a leg press with a bar on their back. I might just try it your way for a while and see if it helps, now that i know what hip drive feels like, because until i read SS, i had heard the term, but didn't really get what it ment.

" The deadlifts look really easy and under lots of control " ha ha they bloody well didn't feel like that.:D I know what you mean though, they don't look like max effort, just they felt a lot harder than they look.

I've been reading Rippetoes forum, for most of this year, and he is always going on about weightlifting shoes and recomends them for all lifts, that's why i was wearing the shoes, but i did find it strange that i never saw powerlifters wearing them for deadlifts, yet he recommends them.
I'll try pulling without them, and see how i get on.
With regard to the height of my hips, this again is a result of his forum, several people posted videos, where there hips rose a bit before the bar came off the floor, and he instructed them to start the lift with their hips at a height where they and the bar move together.But i think i know what you mean , at the moment i feel very little drive from my quads, so yeah maybe my starting position is a bit off.Oh and I am using chalk by the way.

I think there may be a slight misunderstanding about what i meant by linear progression, as you know SS calls for the weight to be increased on every lift, at every session, eventually this will stall, at which point you maybe drop the weights by 10 % or so and build up again, after doing this a couple of times, your probably at the end of your novice stage and ready for an intermediate program. So instead of squating 3 times per week and increasing the weight every time, you could do something like Monday -Squat 5x5, Wednesday- Light squat or Front squat 3x3, Friday Squat 5RM, basically increasing the weight weekly, not 3 times a week.

Transform

A few points - great lifts, what are your stats?

The reason your left knee is falling inwards as you come out of the hole on your squat is due to tight glutes and inner thighs so get a tennis ball and massage the crap out of your glutes (against a wall or the floor) also work on strengthening inner thighs a bit more with some deep lunges onto a step (just take out a squat day and put them in instead).

Your time between reps is perfect on squats but you completely relax on the deadlift so its like your doing single reps rather than allowing the bar to tap the floor and driving back up for your reps.

The weight should go up by no more than 1kg most weeks but as you get stronger you will not be able to deadlift and squat heavy any more than once a week - you know when this will happen as you will not be able to take the weight up and still get the reps so then just reduce the number of times you sq or DL in the week even if its light.

Finally if your over 6 foot then try a sumo stance for the DL as taller people work better on that stance or a trap bar deadlift would be even better. Over time you may have to sit down and say which lift would i like to improve on most and concentrate on that more while you play with rep ranges rather than increasing the weight on the other.

So overall, more maggase (foam rolling also), step lunges (9inch step) and possibly use wide stance on DL if over 6foot

Colm_OReilly

Hey man,

Nice numbers!

Squats I watched last night and wasn't horribly offended by them, Deads this morning.

On the deads, lift your chest more before initiating the pull. You are slightly jerking the bar off the ground, rather than squeezing it. This is evidenced in the fact you can see your hips start to move, then slack being removed from your body prior to the pull. If you take your breath, look slightly forward (I've found this has helped for most trainees), get tension (look up Kelly Starrett on the Set up, 3 vids on CrossFit.com), and lift, this may help.

Now, regards stalling: Have you reset the weight before and moved up? It is possible you've exhausted the linear progression on the lifts but as Hanley's said, don't be too quick to give it up. Hanley's points on head position on the squat, I believe, are coming from suit assisted competition squatters, hence the difference.

Don't do trap bar/sumo deads. It'll upset Rip and it's not what you're training. Have you had Rip take a look?

DM-BM

@ Transform

I'm 33, 1.73m and 83kg, was 65kg little more than a year ago.

@ Colm

I've been doing SS for most of this year, after messing about without any real idea of what i was doing for most of last year. I have reset a few times, because of a recurring back injury and not being happy with my form, i'm only recording my lifts for the last two months which has helped a lot.
I have not failed yet on the squat, but i can see and feel form slipping as the weight increases. I have stalled dropped 10% and then went on tolift heavier than where i stalled on all other lifts, that's why i was saying that novice linear progression may be approaching it's end.
No, i haven't had Ripp take a look.

Thanks to every one so far for the advice, it is appreciated.

Hanley

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Hanley's points on head position on the squat, I believe, are coming from suit assisted competition squatters, hence the difference.

There's no difference between the two tbh when it comes to head position. In fact I would say head position is MORE important raw, whereas elbow and upper back position are king in a suit....

With suit on the mor upright you can get, they better the carryover you'll get,hence the tight upper back and elbows jammed forward, this also moves the sticking point up higher in the lift. So if you've your head jammed too fa back at that point there's a pretty good chance you'll fall over. But with raw squats just as you come out of the hole seems to be the weakest point and most people I've seen will have their hips come up a little sooner than their chest when the weight gets heavy, hence the need to lead with your head and keep the chest up high. I'm not talking about trying to "lift" your head up so you're looking at the ceiling, I'm talking about jamming it back into the bar.

Transform wrote: »

Your time between reps is perfect on squats but you completely relax on the deadlift so its like your doing single reps rather than allowing the bar to tap the floor and driving back up for your reps.

Are ya saying he should be touching and going on his deadlifts? I personally prefer single reps but I guess it depends on where you're weakest.... If ya get stuck near the floor, dead stop all the reps and work on it, if you're missing near the top then get as much work in there as possible!!

.

Finally if your over 6 foot then try a sumo stance for the DL as taller people work better on that stance or a trap bar deadlift would be even better. Over time you may have to sit down and say which lift would i like to improve on most and concentrate on that more while you play with rep ranges rather than increasing the weight on the other.

The thing with sumo deadlifting is that jus being tall doesn't mean it's what you should be doing. All the worlds best deadlifts (I'm talking guy's who've pulled 425-455kg) were done conventional, and by guys OVER 6 foot. Relative limb length is probably more important when it comes to deciding on whether or not to pull sumo. Long legs/average-short arms = better suited to sumo. Short legs/long arms = built to pull big conventional.

I would say that for the "average" guy, conventional deadlifts are better. Sumos, done right, won't really be putting that much overload on the back at all (which is why most people do em right?). Sumo deadlifts are a total bitch to learn and I would be reasonably sure that 90% of people who transfer over to them will be pulling less than they do conventional.

I've spent the last year and a half working sumo deadlifts and it's only recenly that they're on par with my conventionals (and my form's still pretty brutal!!)

Colm_OReilly

Hanley,

Good points, and before I continue let me excuse my post by saying I'm on about 3 hours sleep.

From reading Rip's forum, his books, and mails to him, I gather he dislikes the lifting of the head to complete the lift as it changes the nature of the squat. The hip drive is reduced/eliminated.

I know I'm doing very little else other than appealing to authority on this but I can't find the threads/info to support my claim right now.

Agree on the DL, with normal anthropometry regular deadlifting is the way to go. Also agree on the dead lift, i.e., it's not a metcon, so no need for touch and go. His rest wasn't overly long.

BTW, just for my own ego gratification, Nicole Carroll said my air squat was ruggedly handsome.

Transform

Hanley wrote: »

There's no difference between the two tbh when it comes to head position. In fact I would say head position is MORE important raw, whereas elbow and upper back position are king in a suit....

With suit on the mor upright you can get, they better the carryover you'll get,hence the tight upper back and elbows jammed forward, this also moves the sticking point up higher in the lift. So if you've your head jammed too fa back at that point there's a pretty good chance you'll fall over. But with raw squats just as you come out of the hole seems to be the weakest point and most people I've seen will have their hips come up a little sooner than their chest when the weight gets heavy, hence the need to lead with your head and keep the chest up high. I'm not talking about trying to "lift" your head up so you're looking at the ceiling, I'm talking about jamming it back into the bar.



Are ya saying he should be touching and going on his deadlifts? I personally prefer single reps but I guess it depends on where you're weakest.... If ya get stuck near the floor, dead stop all the reps and work on it, if you're missing near the top then get as much work in there as possible!!

.


The thing with sumo deadlifting is that jus being tall doesn't mean it's what you should be doing. All the worlds best deadlifts (I'm talking guy's who've pulled 425-455kg) were done conventional, and by guys OVER 6 foot. Relative limb length is probably more important when it comes to deciding on whether or not to pull sumo. Long legs/average-short arms = better suited to sumo. Short legs/long arms = built to pull big conventional.

I would say that for the "average" guy, conventional deadlifts are better. Sumos, done right, won't really be putting that much overload on the back at all (which is why most people do em right?). Sumo deadlifts are a total bitch to learn and I would be reasonably sure that 90% of people who transfer over to them will be pulling less than they do conventional.

I've spent the last year and a half working sumo deadlifts and it's only recenly that they're on par with my conventionals (and my form's still pretty brutal!!)

Fair points, i just find the taller people have a hard time keeping their back straight with normal deadlift though all of that is not important if their flexibility allows them to lower deeper into the movement.

Hanley

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Hanley,

Good points, and before I continue let me excuse my post by saying I'm on about 3 hours sleep.

From reading Rip's forum, his books, and mails to him, I gather he dislikes the lifting of the head to complete the lift as it changes the nature of the squat. The hip drive is reduced/eliminated.

I know I'm doing very little else other than appealing to authority on this but I can't find the threads/info to support my claim right now.

Agree on the DL, with normal anthropometry regular deadlifting is the way to go. Also agree on the dead lift, i.e., it's not a metcon, so no need for touch and go. His rest wasn't overly long.

BTW, just for my own ego gratification, Nicole Carroll said my air squat was ruggedly handsome.

I don't understand how it changes the nature of the squat tho? Rip's a good coach, but when I'm looking to increase my lifts I look to what the strongest people are doing, and I have to say I've never heard the concept of the squat being about "hip drive" other than in textbooks.

Maybe you can clarify why "hip drive" is important? (or find those links mebbe!)

DM-BM

Just had a quick look on Rip's forum, and found these two on head position.

http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1962&highlight=head+position

http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=662&highlight=head+position

This one about elbow position.

http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=502&highlight=head+position

Hanley

Crap like this infuriates me; http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showpost.php?p=13748&postcount=7

Suddenly the best squatters in the world are wrong because they haven't tried his way? Bullsh!t.

And I wasn't talking about looking up at the ceiling, I was talking about driving your head back into your traps. A difference Rip can't seem to differentiate between.

Looks liek we're in agreement on elbow position at least.

I have to say, the more I read of Rippetoe, the more arrogant he strikes me as. He doesn't even seem to acknowledge any way other than his.

Malteaser!

Hanley wrote: »

I have to say, the more I read of Rippetoe, the more arrogant he strikes me as. He doesn't even seem to acknowledge any way other than his.

I'd agree with ya there, I was thinking the exact same thing as I read through those three threads.

Hanley

Malteaser! wrote: »

I'd agree with ya there, I was thinking the exact same thing as I read through those three threads.

I know that's a bit rich coming from ME tho.... :D:D

Boston

Hanley wrote: »

Crap like this infuriates me; http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showpost.php?p=13748&postcount=7

Suddenly the best squatters in the world are wrong because they haven't tried his way? Bullsh!t.

And I wasn't talking about looking up at the ceiling, I was talking about driving your head back into your traps. A difference Rip can't seem to differentiate between.

Looks liek we're in agreement on elbow position at least.

I have to say, the more I read of Rippetoe, the more arrogant he strikes me as. He doesn't even seem to acknowledge any way other than his.

I have to say, he comes across very poorly on those threads. That doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's taking about. My squat technique has improved dramatically based on his recommendation. I don't have a problem trying out his advice and dismissing it if I find it doesn't work for me as I don't think anyones opinion no matter how much experience should be taken as the absolute truth, there's always other ways of doing things which may work better for you.

DM-BM

I think, that if you dip in and out of his forum, it would be easy to view him as arrogant, and by the way those threads are extremely mild by his standards, but on the other hand, he teaches his method, writes about it and has to believe it works. He does have a lot of respect for Bill Star and Louis Simmons, even though he doesn't agree with everything they say. I don't really have any experience of other coaches, but are they acknowledging other methods?