Is anybody else using a non flex fuel car with E85 ethanol fuel mixxes

derry

PLEASE NOTE ANY EXPERMENTS WITH E85 YOU DO ARE AT YOUR OWN RISK
I am just following the crap that out on the net which might be bull**** so don't say you were not told so

All modern cars for sale in Ireland are minimum spec made to run on E5% that is 5% ethanol 95% petrol

Some cars are sold to be flex fuel and can run on petrol E5% and or E85% or any mix of the two fuels

The blurb that car show rooms give you

Now the Blurb the car show rooms wont tell you but the net seems happy to supply extra info outside the specs of the normal car

Hi

There is lots of threads on the internet that suggest ways to make non flex fuel cars runs on cheaper E85 fuels ~E0.99cents per liter available from some stations like Maxol

The basics is it appears lots of cars will run on some or all E85 fuel mixxes without any modifications

Other cars will need some small modifications to run well and some will need more major modifications

The links supplied below explain many of the finer details

So based on that information for the last few weeks i have been using some E85 mixxed in with my normal petrol which is a E5% fuel on my own car a 1998 1000cc Suziki swift and so far having reached 50% E8% and 50% E5% fuel making a E40% fuel no major noticable issues so far

Who knows next week the engine might blow it stack but I don't think so

Ethanol fuels burn more cleaner than petrol with less knock and they burn a lot cooler so often cause less issues for many engines especialy older non eletronic injection types engines

Issue Ethanol fuels might cause is rubber seals breaking apart and cuasing leaks or more water in fuel tanks

You need to look up the net what works for each make of car if possible

At 1.25 cents a liter for E5% fuel and a tank of ~36 liters this allows me to save 19 times 0.25 about ~ 5 euro per tank saving using E40% fuel


Later experments I hope the engine still with no modifications will tolerate 100% E85 and allow me to save possibly ~10 euros per tank

If there is a 10% drop in MPG this will mean a ~E7 saving in real MPG terms

The issues to consider is that the E85 as it is Alchool fuel Ethanol has a different Stomic rate than petrol and therefore you require more fuel per mile to enter engine to do the same MPG in theory and may require adjusting the jets to allow more fuel into engines

Petrol air fuel ratio is 15:1
Ethanol is air fuel ratio is 9:1

However Ethanol has oxxegen molicules attached to the fuel which petrol hasn't got and this is like a free turbo power injector which can save the car energy to extract air from the atmosphere so it not for sure the MPG will always go down for every make of car but expect ~10% drops in MPG
As much as 50% loss of MPG can happen for some makes of car on 100% E85 fuels

Many vairables exist with smaller lighter cars seeming to be less impacted in MPG than big heavy cars so it is possible for the fuel costs to increase even thought he fuel is cheaper per liter

Thats why some cars prefer E25 fuel as the loss of MPG is not so severe as E85 and there exists a fuel saving to be had when fuel costs 1.25 a liter for E5 normal petrol and 1 euro for E85 fuel

Also the Ethanol is less explosive and can be slow to ignite in very cold weather and sometimes requires changing to hotter spark plugs

In winter I will go back to E20% and see if that works through the winter

Also the timing on some cars has to be advanced more to help with the slower burning fuel that is Ethanol

I am trying to it on the cheap and not use any add on kits or spark plugs or adjusting timeing or even adjusting the jets

If say E60% fuel ratios causes the engine to stumble or be slow to start whatever I will just settle on E50% fuel ratios and leave it at that


Others out there may know more about the exact science and might be able to contribute some useful pointers as I aim to 100% E85 fuel use


So far each time I have gone from trying E10 to E15 to E E20 all the way to E40% the engine runs better and better with more tourque and less vibration knocking

Fuel figures on the highway steady 50MPH at E30 were very similar ~70mpg as compared to E5 which was 65MPG

Around town very heavy traffic E30 mix seemed a tad down from the E5 which was ~50 MPG went down to ~45 MPG but traffic is subjective could be other factors

I haven't done enough running on E40% to see what effects for MPG

car tick over RPM is down a tad from 900 rpm to closer to 800 RPM

Pick up from 1/3 to i/2 is excellent way better than E5 fuels

Low end tourque on E40 means 20MpH 5th gear will still function just instead of ~25 mph with the E5 fuels

some links to look at

---

Oil giants will try to supress choice of flex fuel
first watch this vidio

Ethanol Expert David Blume Interviewed on KPTV Portland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Y08...eature=related

Brazil 5th largest country imports no oil and produces all it Ethanol fuel to supply all its needs with only 2% of the country farming land

So Bio fuel ethanol and Deseil can be made to work which does not suit oil companies and big brown envelope receivers


First is the drive to prove the facts that its bad etc

Then phase out flex fuel outlets

I noticed loss of Maxol station to become a Topaz station and no E85 fuel there now

Lots of you tube clips show lots of films that show most modern cars will actually run quite well with pure E85 fuel

non flex fuel cars work

EXCELLENT VIDIO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU



Other EXCELLENT Links

with some extra bits for some makes of cars and all makes will do 50% e85 and 50% e5 =~ 45% with no ill effects without to buy extra stuff to make them work


http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php/board,5.0.html

http://e85vehicles.com/converting-e85.htm

http://e85vehicles.com/e85

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

http://www.stumbleupon.com/tag/e85/

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Detail?no=167


car convert to E85 vidio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBXh0...eature=related

However some devices can be usefull in winter like special spark plugs which ignite the less flamable fuel in cold weather
Other devices help the computer controlled injectors to supply extra fuel which can be easily done with a screw driver and small drill with normal non injected type older engines

There also exists lots of threads on many forums about this


You need a base line of 20 tanks of different types of driving to be sure what average MPG is from a car on normal E5 fuels
(Those electronic fuel MPG reader gadjets are often more than 10% out )

I haven't tried pure e85 fuel yet mostly ~1/2 tank E5 and ~1/2 E85

No signs of problems and sure signs of loss of MPG so far



I know from what always happens after a big price spike in oil that the price will then drop and then the oil companies will pull out the big guns and eradicate any alternitives like E85 which threatens their stangle hold on motorists


This is all part of the big oil companies strategy along with suitable brown envelopes to keep Ireland enslaved in oil for ever and ever


Unknown to most people is oil reserves are much bigger than they oil companies tell us and will probably last 1000 years

So rather than be enslaved to oil for this time we need to start now to kill off oil supply demands and to hell with how much oil exists just convert to ethanols and and bio deisel which we can grow from sugar beet and rape seed oils

here is a extract from another similar thread

www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57068148&postcount=46

come from this thread

www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055234456&page=2


So now we have alternitive flex fuel cars with lower tax and the possibilty that there will be nowhere to buy the stuff

And the greens are even in government ????


Anyway any other Maxol stations changed to another brand in Ireland let me know in case I travel further a field than Dublin

Also any other station other than Maxol that sell E85





Some links here where debate is about Ethanol
Remember that Ireland doesn't use crappy corn to make Ethanol so we can produce Ethanol reasonably economically not like the USA

We also are at biggest risk at the end of the pipe line so if the Russians cut of the gas and oil the need for all the E85 we can get to keep Ireland moving will be important as the rest of Europe demands they get all the oil and we can walk

We can with wind and wave power and forests and bio fuel solutions get Ireland off the oil fix if we force the government to do it and stop the brown envelopes from oil giants with Slebhians screwing Ireland


More Ethanol stuff some anti ethanol so you know who pulls the strings and yet BRAZIL say to oil companies

SHAG OFF

OIL requires 30% of the oil to used to extract the oil from the well
Then transport the oil
Then refine the oil
Then put it in the petrol station

So when your car gets 50MPG it is really only ~35 MPG

the debate is always slanted against Bio fuel as the oil Giants see it can remove them from Ireland and countries like Ireland that have alternitives like growing our own fuel


Biofuels & Ethanol: The Real Story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeVT7...eature=related


how ethanol is made cartoon animation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59R-N...eature=related

make your own ethanol micro fueler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD6vO...eature=related

floydd micro fueler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NezK7...eature=related


car convert e85
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBXh0...eature=related



sugar can grass corn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muIb_...eature=related

from farm to fuel ethanol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCMCo...eature=related


How To Make Ethanol Work - Presented by The Auto Channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mghba...eature=related


Pitfalls of Ethanol Fuel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_syY...eature=related



sea fuel philapines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzTnb...eature=related


Pitfalls of Ethanol Fuel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_syY...eature=related



Myth: Corn Ethanol is Great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QQc...eature=related


Ethanol: The Inconvenient Truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV-vS...eature=related





I also have a large thread on the whole subject here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055369646




So if some users have made for flex fuel cars with MPG reading then feel free to contibute how they got on with E85

Other might have been using E85 to get more power from the car as it can often add 20% more power to most makes of car with just a few modifications

Let me and the rest of us know what the E85 fuel story in Ireland is now and even if your only interested to switch over fell free to ask any questions

I ant a mechanic but have rebuilt a few car engines in my time so I will try to give any solutions but others might know a lot more than me


Derry

towel401

thats a very long post and i didn't feel like reading it. but no i don't even know where to get the stuff in culchie land.

i'm sure there are some cunning Dublin-based rip off artists selling the stuff to purist greenies who drive a Toyota Smug for the same price or more than regular petrol. but none where i live

Gerry

I didn't manage to get the whole way through that either, but I get the gist. I've tried mixes of e85 in my own car, but I end up paying more for fuel. Its tough to work out the benefit without using a particular mix for a while, as my mix of driving varies quite a bit. I was interested insofar as saving money, but also from performance, since my car is a turbocharged petrol car, theres quite a lot to be gained from running a mix of e85 and petrol to give 100 octane fuel. I found this to be about 33% e85, 66% petrol in a tank.
Using this mix, I was able to run a lot more ignition advance on full boost, a lot more power.
I also ran full e85 for about a month, but I got a large drop in economy. I think that for me, petrol would need to go over 140 cent a litre for e85 to make sense.

I think that you are spouting a lot of information that you've gathered from many sources - for example you mention making the jets larger - this applies to carbs, very few modern cars have carbs. You need to just concentrate on your own experience, and relate that.
You mention that one of the possible disadvantages of ethanol is rubber fuel system components breaking - have you noticed this on your car yes/no?
You also say that the ignition may need to be advanced - you'd need to explain this a bit better. On older cars you'd need to advance it manually, on newer cars it will either do it itself or you'll need a remap.

I have not seen any leaks after running e20 - e30 for almost a year. I've gone back to 100% petrol because the sums don't add up financially.

derry

towel401 wrote: »

thats a very long post and i didn't feel like reading it. but no i don't even know where to get the stuff in culchie land.

i'm sure there are some cunning Dublin-based rip off artists selling the stuff to purist greenies who drive a Toyota Smug for the same price or more than regular petrol. but none where i live

This link is from limerick guy converted his car to run on E85 for ~600 euro
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055276544&highlight=e85

and this link board supplies info

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055307709&highlight=e85

The main jist of the post to allow those who have a local Maxol station which sells E85 to consider 100% E85 or mixxes of e85 and normal petrol E5 if they want to try that option and see if it works for ther make of car

Some makes of cars do not need any gizzmo to run E85

some need some Gizzmo normally special spark plugs and gizmo that open the injectors for longer time to allow more fuel in

So I have opted to just try it direct in my car and see what will happen

There are many reasons to consider to use E85

If there is a fuel crisis if you know your car can run E85 you could be laughing as the others queue for E5

If you want to get extra power for you car E85 is alot more oxxegen in the fuel and can boost your power ( but probably will drop MPG )

Ethanol burns cleaner and can help engine clean out carbon deposits


Ethanol is Irish home made fuel and employs Irish farmers and factory workers

If your a fuel hoarder stocking up with fuels storage of E85 is reputidly easier and reputabily safer than than E5 as the ethanol requires a higher ignition temperature to ignite

Ethanol Fuel mixxes of E25 would reduce imports of petrol by 20% and help Ireland reduce its CO2 emmisions which if Ireland exceeds will mean Ireland pays a big fine which us tax payers will pay so might as well start using as much E85 now as possible to reduce the taxxes we will pay anyway

The price for gizmos that make for certian all cars run on E85 imported from USA is often about 400 euro to 600 euros depending where you source them ( All cars can be converted to run on E85 but if you ask your local garage expect telephone numbers costs to change it over like 3000 euros plus rip off Republic )

It could take you on E25 fuel mix about 3 years to your money back on that if fuel stays at todays prices

I am trying to use E85 with no gizmos as I am a cheap skate but want some of the benifits of E85 and will probably settle on E25 mix

Derry

derry

Gerry wrote: »

I didn't manage to get the whole way through that either, but I get the gist. I've tried mixes of e85 in my own car, but I end up paying more for fuel. Its tough to work out the benefit without using a particular mix for a while, as my mix of driving varies quite a bit. I was interested insofar as saving money, but also from performance, since my car is a turbocharged petrol car, theres quite a lot to be gained from running a mix of e85 and petrol to give 100 octane fuel. I found this to be about 33% e85, 66% petrol in a tank.
Using this mix, I was able to run a lot more ignition advance on full boost, a lot more power.
I also ran full e85 for about a month, but I got a large drop in economy. I think that for me, petrol would need to go over 140 cent a litre for e85 to make sense.

I think that you are spouting a lot of information that you've gathered from many sources - for example you mention making the jets larger - this applies to carbs, very few modern cars have carbs. You need to just concentrate on your own experience, and relate that.
You mention that one of the possible disadvantages of ethanol is rubber fuel system components breaking - have you noticed this on your car yes/no?
You also say that the ignition may need to be advanced - you'd need to explain this a bit better. On older cars you'd need to advance it manually, on newer cars it will either do it itself or you'll need a remap.

I have not seen any leaks after running e20 - e30 for almost a year. I've gone back to 100% petrol because the sums don't add up financially.

Excellent feed back


Me I ant no mechanic

What I know is all cars can be made to run os E85 some with mods kits and some need no mods

Best I can tell the rubber seals issue is a car industry scare mongering to stop people taking advantage of E85 without buying some rip off expensive kit from them but Its best all car owners check for themselfs

The Kits mods for some cars is a gadjet that allows injector to stay open longer to supply more fuel and advances the timing on the electronic ignition

The other kit mod is hotter spark plugs for easier starting in cold climates

There are other mod and kits but they vary from car to car

All I know for sure is timing advance is more useful for those who max power and max fuel saving (modern flex fuel cars sense this and adjust the timing to suit the fuel)

But if the timing isn't advanced the engine will probably run OK but might stumble at times and not give top speeds and could use more fuel
(which is the option I have opted for now and will look to change timing later if needed)

Carberation mods would be for non injector type cars best I can tell

Maybe you can do a seperate thread for those on how to use E85 to get power boosts from your car for those that would like to get the maxuim power from their cars as you are way out in front for this type of modification

Derry

derry

This boards link shows the minister is abondoning ethanol production for E85 fuels

Ethanol presently in Ireland is made from Whey a waste product from milk

Somehow the minister says food prices will increase if we make Ethanol

Brown MANA in brown envelopes from heaven if you ask me

Farmers in Carlow growing sugar beet which we don't eat anyway can go on the dole and we can give more money to the rich oil companies

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac: for the rich :mad:

and pay through the nose for the poor


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055343626&highlight=e85

Derry

derry

I havent the chance to test on motorway driving in this time

Town driving

I figure i am on E85 fuel pure now

No adverse effect on E10 e20 e30..... through to e80 but small efdfects at 80 throught to E85

effects noticed on E80 to e85 fuels ratios

Only issues sluggish when car is cold in the morning for first few minutes

Sometimes one time in twenty or more small surging effects in 1st and second gear when accelerating away from lights usually if its long lights

Nothing that a mechanic cant sort for about E200 Euros but I don't want to spend that kinda money even though it would improve fuel effiency

I will after a few more tanks of E85 go back to 60% E85 and 40% e5 (makes ~E50 )which can possibly save me as much as 10% in fuel costs compared to running pure E85 or pure E5 fuels


The fuel figures around town are with E5 fuel is 47 to 53 MPG
The fuel figures around town are with E85 fuel is 40 to 43 MPG

However the E85 costs E1.00 per liter
The E5 costs me often about E1.25 per liter

When I look the costs it very close

If I get 43 MPG with the E85 it will be cheaper than E5 which gets 47MPG
If the going is bad say 40mpg from E85 it a tad more costly than E5 which might be getting a good day at 53 MPG

I would suspect than on average the E85 is the same or marginaly more costly than E5 around town but more ttests will show this to be the case or not

The few tests done with mostly E85 say E50 mix show better MPG than e5 or E85 to the tune of 10% saving in costs per mile


I enclose a open office spread sheet mostly with the tables hidden to the costs for fuel in todays prices ( you can open tables them if you want more price tables )

This shows the various costs for my car Suziki swift 98 model 3 cylinder 1000cc

Bear in mind I drive economically so others would not often get those MPG in the same car

derry

Three tanks plus of E85 in my non flex fuel car and no major problems

With the rapid price drop of normal petrol to 1.18 euro per liter I have now gone back to 50% E5 and 50% E85

I figure at1.05 to 1.15 euro per liter for normal petrol E5 fuel there will be no economic benifit to use E85 what with some loss of MPG

However the engine seems to really like high E85 ratio fuel like between E20 E40 ratios the engine runs nicely and has lots more tourque

Also high ratio E85 in ratio E20 to E50 helps keep engine running much more cleanly and for the save the planet types it makes less noxious gasses like NO2

Also for passing NCT Emmisions tests high ratios of E85 such as E20 could probaly help pass the NCT Emmision tests

Will keep you posted but I figure even with extra costs if the Petrol drops a lot and E85 doesn't follow I will always stick to E10% to E20% with adding a few liters to each tank

Also I have a few gallons of E85 stashed away for a rainy day in case petrol is low as storing E85 is a tad safer than storing normal petrol

For me its good to know what happens for my car so if there is a petrol fuel shortage I can fill in E85 and might be better of than those who are too scared to experiment or in a car such as fuel injection more likely to need a kit convertion to run on E85

For more specialist info there are many links to look at in post 1 #

I will keep you updated

Derry

gu10

derry wrote: »

Three tanks plus of E85 in my non flex fuel car and no major problems

With the rapid price drop of normal petrol to 1.18 euro per liter I have now gone back to 50% E5 and 50% E85

I figure at1.05 to 1.15 euro per liter for normal petrol E5 fuel there will be no economic benifit to use E85 what with some loss of MPG

However the engine seems to really like high E85 ratio fuel like between E20 E40 ratios the engine runs nicely and has lots more tourque

Also high ratio E85 in ratio E20 to E50 helps keep engine running much more cleanly and for the save the planet types it makes less noxious gasses like NO2

Also for passing NCT Emmisions tests high ratios of E85 such as E20 could probaly help pass the NCT Emmision tests

Will keep you posted but I figure even with extra costs if the Petrol drops a lot and E85 doesn't follow I will always stick to E10% to E20% with adding a few liters to each tank

Also I have a few gallons of E85 stashed away for a rainy day in case petrol is low as storing E85 is a tad safer than storing normal petrol

For me its good to know what happens for my car so if there is a petrol fuel shortage I can fill in E85 and might be better of than those who are too scared to experiment or in a car such as fuel injection more likely to need a kit convertion to run on E85

For more specialist info there are many links to look at in post 1 #

I will keep you updated

Derry

i alwasys thought you shouldnt keep e85 around for too long in case it will soak up water.

just recently started to try the stuff, i put some in the car every now and then but not a whole lot yet. have a small lawn edger with a 4 stroke engine that runs good on pure e85 although i did have to adjust the idle screw cause it was revving too much at idle. it might have a bit less power but its hard to tell, i will put normal petrol in it again someday to compare

derry

Sons of B****** robbed the car and burnt it out back early 2010.

END RANT

Lucky for me Neighbour in Dublin had another old junker 1998 low mileage less than 40K fiat Bravo with the clutch gone and gave it too me
One clutch later and its great car accept when using E85 the MPG drops a lot

So far I havent done much with E85 with it .I wanted a reference of at least 10,000 miles in normal E5 stuff before using E85

Running engine wise so far seems to tolerate no issues as much as 30% E85 70% E5 fuel mix .
However the fall in MPG seems to be very large making the cost per mile easy the same as running on straight E5 and thats with the present E1 a liter for E85 and ~E1.32 per liter for E5 fuels .

The MPG of the car with E5 and its a 1400 engine seems to about ~33MPG around town and ~38 long distance at speeds of ~60mph
Best case figures can be ~38MPG around town and 55MPG @ 40MPH (boring driving so slow )
Worst case figures ~30MPG around town ~35 MPG @ ~75MPH (motorway speeds )

Again no engine modifications of any sort not even changing the spark plugs
resuts so far are dissapointing for the MPG and cost per mile

With about 25% E85 in the mix seems to be ~ 28MPG around town and @33 MPG on the longer runs @ ~65 MPH

The engine sure likes the E25% mix in the fuel for acceleration but loss MPG is a major issue

My calculations show it really requires with this car the fuel E5 would need to cost ~E1.45 a liter for me to get a interesting saving using E85 (assuming E85 stayed at ~E1.00 a liter )
EG the car looks like it will need ~40% maybe even 50% extra fuel if it were to use only 100% E85 fuels :eek: (I havent reached that target yet )

However its early days and maybe with better driving style using the extra tourgue from the E85 fuel mix might get back some of the MPG

As my intel right now is that te Irish army and Garda are not allowed to take any leave until febuary 2011 earliest as the goverment is expecting the **** to hit the fan in december 2010.It seems that there will be all sort of crisis in that time and probaly major civil unrest rioting you name it .It also seems the government has employed a goon sqaud to ensure there will be civil unrest if the locals dont riot as they need to bring in emergency powers in december 2010

So i need to get my car running on 100% E85 ASAP in case there is also fuel shortages in December 2010 and maybe the only ful in ireland wil be E85 as we grow the most of stuff that makes the E85 fuel here in ROI

I will keep going until I reach 100% e85 fuel mix or as much as possible and return to report the results

Hang on to you knickers december 2010 looks to be the helter skelter

Ref :gu10

Actualy E85 probably stores a lot better than E5 but you need to keep the lid on the fuel. Normal E5 fuel goes rotten after a few months and is only garenteed for three months .Best i can figure 40% the fuel is toulene and it is clear stuff that seperates and floats to the top of the can .Once it sperates it doesnt mix back into the fuel again so easy (using large aounts of heat and some chemical tricks the fuel can be revived but you risk to blow yourself to kingdom come so best to thow the old fuel out as it can gum up te fuel pumps and the engines )

Ethanol for storage with airtight cap remains very stable for decades (ask you vintage whisky that . However the 15% petrol might still go off in three months)

If your leaving the car a long period with a tank of E85 or even E5 petrol thats not a good idea and fuel should be drained from the systems as both types of fuels cause problems for the cars if left in the tanks

For fuels uses pure ethanol such as 100% E100 fuel sold in Brazil is actualy 99% ethanol 1% toulene .Toulene makes a oily lyer on top the fuel to reduce the soak up of water when exposed to air .All petrols contain ~10% to ~100% toulene (30% toulene is average ) and this toulene content wil protect most E85 fuel mixxes for normal 3 month fuel shelf life usages in cars .Needless to say a full tank of E85 fuel will soak up less water than a near empty tank as the surface area of the fuel exposed to air where the water is disolved in is reduced

I have just used two 20 liter cans with 6 month fuel in it mixxed in with 70% E5 no issues .I am moving house so wanted to empty the cans full of E85 fuels (which were my emergency fuel reserve for in case of armegedon rearing its head and thats not counting my ~6 months food supply which I will just take with me to the new gaff).Hopefully my new gaff will be in the stickvile and I can store safely more E85 fuel than I can closer to town

E85 fuel is on average far safer to store than normal petrol . Its reqiures far higher temperatures to make it become a gas form and explode ( which explains needs for hot spark plugs and difficult to start in winter issues ).It probably can store for much longer periods than normal petrol fuels( there does exist special petrol for storage costs lie ~E20 euros a liter which stores for 20 years ). I suspect most E85 fuel is good for one year storage.
However if E85 fuel does catch fire the fire will be probably 4 times bigger than normal petrol as the fuel contains 30% oxegen in it so it burns real fast and risks to explode more violently .Also the flames might not look so big as the fuel burn cleaner but the heat will be something else compared to petrol

Derry

derry

Sons of B****** robbed the car and burnt it out back early 2010.

END RANT

Lucky for me Neighbour in Dublin had another old junker 1998 low mileage less than 40K fiat Bravo with the clutch gone and gave it too me
One clutch later and its great car accept when using E85 the MPG drops a lot

So far I havent done much with E85 with it .I wanted a reference of at least 10,000 miles in normal E5 stuff before using E85

Running engine wise so far seems to tolerate no issues as much as 30% E85 70% E5 fuel mix .
However the fall in MPG seems to be very large making the cost per mile easy the same as running on straight E5 and thats with the present E1 a liter for E85 and ~E1.32 per liter for E5 fuels .

The MPG of the car with E5 and its a 1400 engine seems to about ~33MPG around town and ~38 long distance at speeds of ~60mph
Best case figures can be ~38MPG around town and 55MPG @ 40MPH (boring driving so slow )
Worst case figures ~30MPG around town ~33 MPG @ ~75MPH (motorway speeds )

Again no engine modifications of any sort not even changing the spark plugs
resuts so far are dissapointing for the MPG and cost per mile
(I supect the MPG would be better if I modified the engine with suitable E85 kit but I am a cheap skate and dont do eneough miles per year to get a return on my investment on ~E600 euros for the E85 kits )

With about 25% E85 in the mix seems to be ~ 28MPG around town and @33 MPG on the longer runs @ ~65 MPH

The engine sure likes the E25% mix in the fuel for acceleration but loss MPG is a major issue for cost benifits to using E85

My calculations show it really requires with this car the fuel E5 would need to cost ~E1.45 a liter for me to get a interesting saving using E85 (assuming E85 stayed at ~E1.00 a liter )
EG the car looks like it will need ~40% maybe even 50% extra fuel if it were to use only 100% E85 fuels :eek: (I havent reached that target yet )

However its early days and maybe with better driving style using the extra tourgue from the E85 fuel mix might get back some of the MPG

As my intel right now is that te Irish army and Garda are not allowed to take any leave until febuary 2011 earliest as the goverment is expecting the DUNG to hit the fan in december 2010.
It seems that there will be all sort of crisis in that time maybe in the budjet they cut deep and probably major civil unrest rioting you name it .
It also seems the government has employed a goon sqaud to ensure there will be civil unrest riots if the locals dont riot as they need to bring in emergency powers in december 2010. Nice bunch the got in the dail if you ask me

So I need to get my car running on 100% E85 ASAP in case there is also fuel shortages (very very likly ) in December 2010 and maybe the only fuel left in Ireland wil be E85 as we grow the most of stuff that makes the E85 fuel here in ROI

I will keep going until I reach 100% e85 fuel mix or as much as possible and return to report the results (not much time left for testing E85 and wrong time of the year best to test in the summer time )

Hang on to you knickers december 2010 looks to be the helter skelter

Ref :gu10

Actualy E85 probably stores a lot better than E5 but you need to keep the lid on the fuel. Normal E5 fuel goes rotten after a few months and is only garenteed for three months .Best i can figure 40% the fuel is toulene and it is clear stuff that seperates and floats to the top of the can .Once it sperates it doesnt mix back into the fuel again so easy (using large aounts of heat and some chemical tricks the fuel can be revived but you risk to blow yourself to kingdom come so best to thow the old fuel out as it can gum up te fuel pumps and the engines )

Ethanol for storage with airtight cap remains very stable for decades (ask you vintage whisky that . However the 15% petrol might still go off in three months)

If your leaving the car a long period with a tank of E85 or even E5 petrol thats not a good idea and fuel should be drained from the systems as both types of fuels cause problems for the cars if left in the tanks

For fuels uses pure ethanol such as 100% E100 fuel sold in Brazil is actualy 99% ethanol 1% toulene .Toulene makes a oily layer on top the fuel to reduce the soak up of water when exposed to air .

(This 1% toulene in E100 makes the fuel extremly toxic to drink .That explains why the locals in Brazil dont go down to the local garage and buy a gallon of E100 an get mad drunk on it as the 1% toxic toulene content would kill them deader than a hammer )

All petrols contain ~10% to ~100% toulene (30% toulene is average ) and this toulene content wil protect most E85 fuel from water take up in E85 fuel mixxes for normal 3 month fuel shelf life usages in cars .

(yes cars will run on 100% toulene ,However oil companies usualy prefer to sell fuel with lowwer amounts of toulene content in the fuel accept in countries like australia where they pay no tax on toulene fuels but pay tax on other petrol fuels then they can sometimes supply 100% toulene fuels there .
Beware 100% toulene fuel smeel awful sorta like paint thinners and is much more toxic than normal petrol fuels .Racing cars prefer higher toulene higher octane content fuels )

Needless to say a full tank of E85 fuel will soak up less water than a near empty tank as the surface area of the fuel exposed to air where the water is disolved in is reduced

I have just used two 20 liter cans of E85 fuel with 6 month old fuel in it mixxed in with ~70% E5 no issues (makes ~E30) .
I am presently seeling and sold the house so moving house so I wanted to empty the cans full of E85 fuels and fill up next month in the new house

(These E85 fuel cans were my emergency fuel reserve for in case of Armegedon rearing its head .Now Decmber 2010 might be the kick start to that .Thats not counting my ~6 months food supply which I will just take with me to the new gaff).

Hopefully my new gaff will be more in the stickvile and I can store safely more E85 fuel than I can closer to town .

E85 fuel is on average far safer to store than normal petrol . Its requires far higher temperatures to make it become a gas form and explode
( This explains needs for hot spark plugs and difficult to start in winter issues ).

It probably can store for much longer periods than normal petrol fuels
( there does exist special petrol for storage costs like ~E20 euros a liter which stores for ~20 years ).

I suspect most E85 fuel is good for one year storage.
However if E85 fuel does catch fire the fire will be probably 4 times bigger than normal petrol as the fuel contains 30% oxegen in it so it burns real fast and risks to explode more violently . Also the flames might not look so big as the fuel burn cleaner but the heat will be something else compared to petrol. The advantage though is the fire stops much quicker as the fuel burns up much quicker and water works very well in putting out that type of fire
(Sorrounding E85 fuel with plastic water containers can often extiguish the fire from E85. That water method doesnt work so well wit normal petrol as the petrol tends to float on the water and contiues to burn so specail foam works best with petro fires
Water works well with E85 is because ethanol disolves into the water reducing the amount of clean fuel availble to burn and often stops the 15% of petrol burning as well )

Lucky because E85 makes such a crap molitiv cocktail or petrol bombs they are very very hard to light up much more easy to put the fire out and burn the fuel too quickly Its unlikely in rioting that they will ever buy up all the supplies of E85 for making petrol bombs for those reasons
Hopefuly I can continue to get some E85 fuel even if there if a semi Armigedon event in ireland any time soon

Derry