[Article] Metro North documents to be lodged

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0913/1221235786679.html

Metro North documents to be lodged
TIM O'BRIEN

THOUSANDS OF Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday.

The planning application – officially an application for a Railway Order – is to be accompanied by an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) which contains details of disturbance caused by the construction of the 18km, partly underground, rail line linking Swords and Dublin airport with St Stephen’s Green.

The EIS will look at disturbance to traffic and trade as well as to hospitals, community organisations, schools and parks.

The application and the EIS will be available at An Bord Pleanála’s headquarters in Marlborough Street as well as at Fingal County Council offices in Swords, Dublin’s Civic Offices on Wood Quay, Ballymun Regeneration on Ballymun Road and from the Railway Procurement Agency at Parkgate Street.

An Bord Pleanála will accept submissions on the project until October 29th and is expected to then hold an oral hearing which may take several weeks. A decision on the application is expected by next autumn.

The Railway Procurement Agency has refused to say how much the five-year construction project is set to cost, citing commercial sensitivities as the tendering process is under way.

But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices.

Transport sources said this was an estimate of the full cost of the construction and operation of the Public Private Partnership (PPP)over the 35 years of the partnership’s life-span.

The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices. The remaining costs cover operation and maintenance and the refurbishment of the system at the end of the 35 years before its handover to the State. It also covers significant bank and consultancy fees for the PPP. Under typical PPPs in the National Roads Programme, the State would put up 65 percent of the construction costs, which would give the Government a bill of some €1.5 billion to be paid over five years. The remainder would be in agreed scheduled payments to the private sector partner over the lifetime of the partnership.

Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment.

Metro North was originally scheduled for completion by 2012, but is now more likely to be about 2014 at the earliest.

Amtmann

So, it's going to happen - thank God! The Irish Independent reports today that three rail projects (Metro, Interconnector, LUAS) are to be built simultaneously.

Dublin will be an awful mess for the next few years -- but it will be worth it.

I have a few questions, however.

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

So, it's going to happen - thank God! The Irish Independent reports today that three rail projects (Metro, Interconnector, LUAS) are to be built simultaneously.

Dublin will be an awful mess for the next few years -- but it will be worth it.

I have a few questions, however.

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

Errr... well I can answer with some cynicism those questions:

1) From a few weeks to a few months depending on objections.

2) Same as above.

3) Well I can't imagine anyone having objections to such critical pieces of infrastructure. But I'd imagine most objections would be over the location of the St.Stephen's Green station and the construction that'll take place there.

4) 2010 for both projects. MN is more likely to start quicker.

5) Well in the Transport 21 schedule, MN is meant to finished by the end of 2012. So unless they start building tommorow, or magically go back in time, it ain't gonna happen. 2014 for Metro North I'd say. The interconnector is meant to be finished by 2015 which is a pretty realistic target if they can get planning permission.

6) Metro West - the big problem people have is that IT ISN'T A REAL METRO. 'Metro' implies full segregation and a high-speed, efficient service. Metro West is simply another luas line as it stands. If we're going to invest money, we might as well do it right rather than always going for the cheapest option (which is still damn expensive).

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0913/1221235786679.html

Why does the Irish Times always make stuff up when they write about Metro North? This piece is riddled with inaccuracies and falsities and conjecture. They always frame Metro North in the negative - how much it will cost, how long it will take to build, disruption to the ducks in the park, etc...

Never will you read a piece in the Irish Times saying "thousands of Dubliners can look forward to a new mass transit system on their doorsteps when RPA releases the planning application for the Metro North line"...

Wanna know why infrastructure is so delayed and of such poor quality in Ireland? Look at the way the paper of record reports it..

Flaw number 1: "thousands of Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday". Did the journalist actually conduct a survey to establish that thousands of Dubliners were going to seek copies of the planning?

Flaw number 2: "But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices." The documents were not '''obtained'''- they were publicly available. "Obtained" is used to make the RPA look secretive and sneaky.

Flaw number 3: "The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices." By whom?

Flaw number 4: "Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment." An underhand way of disguising the journalist's opinion...

My message to the Irish Times: stick to the facts. Your crude anti-Metro bias is plain for all to see.

Sponge Bob

Metrobest wrote: »

Why does the Irish Times always make stuff up when they write about Metro North?

Because Frank McDonald is a big fan of the Interconnector.

Also because Frank probably knows ( if he did any proper research ) that The Interconnector Tunnel and MN will not be built simultaneously because the Dept of Finance will not allow 2 separate lots of contractors into one hole with all the massive rows and massive cost overruns that would mean.

Read Franks sunny uncritical IT article on the interconnector only last month and ask yourself who is really to blame for that hole in Stephens Green ....surely not just MN on its own when the Interconnector is also going in there ??

Frank Mc seems not to be chummy with Frank Allen of the RPA (is that RIP) either if you can remember this early 2007 piece of Frank on Frank in the IT . Maybe it is professional distance, maybe not !

"Mr Allen said if the RPA was required to build a second underground station in St Stephen's Green, to serve the future rail interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock, it "would blow our project" - the cost of which is unofficially estimated at €3.5 to €4 billion."

If you want MN built before the Interconnector then make sure you challenge Frank at each and every opportunity . Otherwise Frank and the IT will kill MN .

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Also because Frank probably knows ( if he did any proper research ) that The Interconnector Tunnel and MN will not be built simultaneously because the Dept of Finance will not allow 2 separate lots of contractors into one hole with all the massive rows and massive cost overruns that would mean.


.

The interconnector and MN will be built together or at least the St. Stephens green stop

Sponge Bob

kearnsr wrote: »

The interconnector and MN will be built together or at least the St. Stephens green stop

These RPA and Irish Rail meetings are only a diplomatic nicety .

If they do not take place then NEITHER project will happen.

Have the RPA and Irish Rail ever held a joint press conference to present to the public of Dublin the outline agreement allegedly reached in those meetings and if not why not ???

Have they even agreed on a joint press release ??

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

These RPA and Irish Rail meetings are only a diplomatic nicety .

If they do not take place then NEITHER project will happen.

Have the RPA and Irish Rail ever held a joint press conference to present to the public of Dublin the outline agreement allegedly reached in those meetings and if not why not ???

Have they even agreed on a joint press release ??

Havent a clue.

But if you look at the plans for St Stephens green you'll see the interconnector is underneath the MN stop. Logic would dictate that at least some discussion was under taken between the RPA and IE about this. Thats the point I was making

Sponge Bob

Recent Logic kearnsr , only recent !

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055035569

"Mr Allen ( head of RPA January 2007) said if the RPA was required to build a second underground station in St Stephen's Green, to serve the future rail interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock, it "would blow our project" - the cost of which is unofficially estimated at €3.5 to €4 billion."

But it really is good to talk and it always was the one station ...but two contracts !

godtabh

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Recent Logic kearnsr , only recent !

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055035569

"Mr Allen ( head of RPA January 2007) said if the RPA was required to build a second underground station in St Stephen's Green, to serve the future rail interconnector between Heuston Station and Spencer Dock, it "would blow our project" - the cost of which is unofficially estimated at €3.5 to €4 billion."

But it really is good to talk and it always was the one station ...but two contracts !

Two contracts for one piece of infrastructure is not unknown. How its managed is the key. When more details are known I suppose we will know more. I wonder when that will happen

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

Why does the Irish Times always make stuff up when they write about Metro North? This piece is riddled with inaccuracies and falsities and conjecture. They always frame Metro North in the negative - how much it will cost, how long it will take to build, disruption to the ducks in the park, etc...

Never will you read a piece in the Irish Times saying "thousands of Dubliners can look forward to a new mass transit system on their doorsteps when RPA releases the planning application for the Metro North line"...

Wanna know why infrastructure is so delayed and of such poor quality in Ireland? Look at the way the paper of record reports it..

Flaw number 1: "thousands of Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday". Did the journalist actually conduct a survey to establish that thousands of Dubliners were going to seek copies of the planning?

Flaw number 2: "But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices." The documents were not '''obtained'''- they were publicly available. "Obtained" is used to make the RPA look secretive and sneaky.

Flaw number 3: "The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices." By whom?

Flaw number 4: "Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment." An underhand way of disguising the journalist's opinion...

My message to the Irish Times: stick to the facts. Your crude anti-Metro bias is plain for all to see.

Parts of that sounds like the piece was driven by a press briefing / release.

Victor

Furet wrote: »

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

The programme is likely to be something like:
September 2008: Public Consultation
January 2009: Oral Hearing
May 2009: Decision by ABP
July 2009: end of appeal period

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

The Interconnector is at a much earlier stage. Although it is a smaller project, all of it is complicated, whereas MN is relatively simpler for its northern half.

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

You ahve to look at where the objections will come from. The most serious objections are likely to be on disturbance / commercial grounds from city centre retailers (especially) and concern for the park in St. Stephen's Green from the General public. There will be distrubance in Ballymun and through the tunnelling operations, but I think the objection risk is manageable.

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

I think late 2009, but that can vary by six months taking into account early starts on some parts and allowing for ramping up of the works. Construction can probably start in several places at the same time.

(a) Belinstown Depot.
(b) Belinstown - Airport which is most on the surface or shallow tunnel or elevated.
(c) Airport. Bored tunnel.
(d) Airport - Ballymun.
(e) Ballymun - DCU. Cut and cover tunnel
(f) DCU - St. Stephen's Green. Bored tunnel.
(g) Stations. Mater is likely to procede well ahead of other work.

I imagine a Luas style operation could be in place in Swords before the city section starts operations.

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

MN - end 2012, probably late. Interconnector, probably 1-2 years later, but its all up in the air.

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

Its the mutant offspring. It pretends to be a metro, when in fact is will be much more like the Luas Red Line outside the city centre. It take a lot of detours to feed certain locations. Many of the major junctions aren't grade separated, i.e. level crossings and traffic lights.

Metrobest

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Read Franks sunny uncritical IT article on the interconnector only last month and ask yourself who is really to blame for that hole in Stephens Green ....surely not just MN on its own when the Interconnector is also going in there ??

If you want MN built before the Interconnector then make sure you challenge Frank at each and every opportunity . Otherwise Frank and the IT will kill MN .

I've given up reading the Irish Times online because of articles like this - I used to buy it when I lived in Ireland because it's the only quality daily newspaper so it has a virtual monopoly on its market. That makes its content all the more potent, giving the likes to Frank McDonald too much power which is dangerous for a democracy as the country's political and economic elite take their cues from this newspaper, which at a massive €1.80 (;ast time I was in Ireland) must rank as one of most expensive broadsheet newspapers in the world.

It's funny how Frank McDonald is never seeking to "obtain" documents about the cost estimates for the Interconnector. He's perfectly happy to accept Iarnroad Eireann's version of things - even though they have a record of screwing up other major projects including the last piece of urban rail infrastructure built in Ireland: the luas. The Interconnector project sounds horrendously disruptive to the city centre in comparision with MN, but Frank McDonald never asks the hard questions which his audience is entitled to have answered. Instead Frank McDonald just rolls over and turns into a poodle when he interviews Irish Rail; while with the RPA he morphs into a demented rothweiler :pac:

trellheim

In fairness I haven't seen anyone cheerleading for BOTH RPA and IE ; everyone is in one or the other [ remember there's only one wodge of cash ]

:feelings still running high after the Battle of Broadstone :rolleyes::):rolleyes:

paulm17781

Metrobest wrote: »

It's funny how Frank McDonald is never seeking to "obtain" documents about the cost estimates for the Interconnector. He's perfectly happy to accept Iarnroad Eireann's version of things - even though they have a record of screwing up other major projects including the last piece of urban rail infrastructure built in Ireland: the luas.

Iarnrod Eireann never touched the Luas. That was all your beloved RPA. In fact, IE have a pretty good record when it comes to infrastructure. Better than the RPA. Of course you know this, you're just choosing to ignore it. "If I don't believe a fact, then it's not a fact."

I don't understand you at all. When the IC is built it will be the most important piece of rail infrastructure on the island followed by the metro. I want both to be built but the IC will impact far more people.

BrianD

Furet wrote: »

So, it's going to happen - thank God! The Irish Independent reports today that three rail projects (Metro, Interconnector, LUAS) are to be built simultaneously.

Dublin will be an awful mess for the next few years -- but it will be worth it.

I have a few questions, however.

1) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid Metro North to go ahead?

2) How long before Bord Pleanala make a decision to allow or forbid the Interconnector to go ahead?

3) How likely are multiple objections to severly delay the project?

4) At the earliest, when can we expect construction to begin?

5) At the earliest, when will construction (of the interconnector and Metro North) be finished?

6) Can someone tell me precisely what is wrong with Metro West?

Is this piece of national infrastructure not immune from the planning process.

I think what you'll find is that the plitical interference from lobbying by vested interests will be more of a problem than ordinary folks objecting because they are worried about tunnelling under their homes or they don't fancy living beside a metro station (until they advertise their house for sale). It's this kind of interference that has the green line terminating at Stephens green instead of the sity centre or beyond.

Victor

RPA wrote:

As you probably know the documents accompanying the application (plans, EIS, etc.) will be available for public inspection from next Wednesday (17 September) and the deadline for formal submissions to AnBP is 29 October.

paulm17781 wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann never touched the Luas. That was all your beloved RPA.

The Light Rail Office started as a CIÉ/IÉ off-shoot and became the RPA.

Metrobest

paulm17781 wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann never touched the Luas. That was all your beloved RPA. In fact, IE have a pretty good record when it comes to infrastructure. Better than the RPA.

I don't understand you .

CIE light rail project office was responsible for initial design and planning (including the much maligned decision to purchase 30m trams for the red line); subsequently the RPA was created... The last project IE were repsponsible for - DART Upgrade - was months behind schedule because of An Taisce, yet miraculously came in on budget. Then there was the fiasco of the Cork Dublin train... the list goes on... Listen I'm not saying the RPA are perfect, but there a damn sight better than the decades of incompetence and mismanagement from Irish Rail..

Also I'm not denying the Interconnector's importance as a project for the greater Dublin area (although its impact on sprawl consolodation is another matter), but for the city of Dublin MN is the most essential project to take the city forward; without it the metropolitan area of Dublin will slide into further decline while continued suburbanistan will radiate along the interconnector's corridors.

The more sustainable situation is a high density alternative corridor between Swords and the city which can only take place when MN is operational. But it shouldn't be an either/or. We need - and can well afford - both. There's no excuse. Ireland is not a poor country anymore.

paulm17781

Victor wrote: »

The Light Rail Office started as a CIÉ/IÉ off-shoot and became the RPA.

That's true but the much delayed construction was all the RPA. I've met some of the RPA lads and I think they're doing an excellent job with the Luas but they have a worse reputation that CIE for infrastructure, in fact, the RPA are yet to deliver a project on time.

Metrobest, I agree with what you said. You however are also the first person to shoot down the IC against MN. Both are needed but IC will deliver beneifts for more than MN. We've had these conversations before, let's not get into this again. What is important is that both get built.

Ps. MN won't be as effective with out the IC.

Metrobest

paulm17781 wrote: »

Ps. MN won't be as effective with out the IC.

Agreed.

bk

paulm17781 wrote: »

That's true but the much delayed construction was all the RPA. I've met some of the RPA lads and I think they're doing an excellent job with the Luas but they have a worse reputation that CIE for infrastructure, in fact, the RPA are yet to deliver a project on time.

The extension down to the point seems to be well on schedule.

This gives me hope that the RPA have learned their lessons from the first Luas projects and the lessons that is seems the NRA have most certainly learnt and that MN and future Luas projects will be on time and on budget.

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

Agreed.

STRIKE!

Sorry, joke.

Victor

1. The documents arrive in the An Bord Pleanála offices today - a box not quite as tall as a filing cabinet, but twice the width, plus 16 rolls of drawings. The staff are going to have fun stamping all of that.

2. 2,000+ pages 200+ drawings by X copies. They need to be stamped by ABP first, before they will hand them out. If you want drawings or other documents, they are likely to be on the RPA website on Tuesday or Wednesday.

3. €5-7bn metro / airport projects and you still have to walk to the terminal.

4. I looked at the pre-consultation file - this has been going on for a year and a half. In that year and a half, the project has slipped 9 months. ABP concerns are St. Stephen's Green, O'Connell Street heritage, interchange and usability.

5. It struck me that they might have to build BX (or at least the Hawkins Street Bridge) because OCB stop will use up so much road capacity.

6. They expect 4-4.5 years for construction - or 7 years if it is in more than one phase (I can't see how this would be done on practical terms).

7. There was originally another route option through Clonshaugh Industrial Estate - this never went to public consultation.

8. Quite a bit of fuzziness on what the ultimate capacity will be.

9. Busiest section of route expected to be DCU to Ballymun. Busiest station - St. Stephen's Green (because it is a terminus).

10. Ranelagh is on the minds, but also on the long finger.

noobie

Hi,


The documents for Metro will be put online here.



www.dublinmetronorth.ie

BluntGuy

Well I'd like to see Interconnector take priority.

While I think Metro North is definately an important project, the interconnector is the key to sorting out the current lack of intergration. It will help to us to make infinitely better use of our EXISTING services.

Metro North on the otherhand, while providing a safe, high-speed link to the airport and northern suburbs, does not actually directly improve existing services. i.e if MN was constructed, the bottlenecks in the city centre would still persist.

I'd like to see both of them going ahead ASAP, but if I had to pick one, it would definately be the interconnector.

bk

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well I'd like to see Interconnector take priority.

I think it is the opposite. MN serves areas which currently have zero rail based public transport.

The areas served by the interconnector are already served by existing DART and commuter rail services. Sure it will vastly improve frequency, capacity and integration, but it doesn't actually bring anything new, so should be slightly lower priority (very slightly mind you).

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

8. Quite a bit of fuzziness on what the ultimate capacity will be.

I heard that they cannot state that until they get a Fire Cert and the Fire Cert will limit them at their most constricted station and from there on the entire network . We will know what the capacity is by 2015/2016 or so .

10. Ranelagh is on the minds, but also on the long finger.

Not if Sean Dunne can help it , he wants it extended to his towers in Ballsbridge 8)

gjim

Flaw number 1: "thousands of Dubliners are expected to seek copies of the planning application for Metro North when it is lodged with An Bord Pleanála on Wednesday". Did the journalist actually conduct a survey to establish that thousands of Dubliners were going to seek copies of the planning?

Flaw number 2: "But documents obtained from the Department of Transport set the cost of Metro North at €4.58 billion in 2004 prices." The documents were not '''obtained'''- they were publicly available. "Obtained" is used to make the RPA look secretive and sneaky.

Flaw number 3: "The construction element alone has been put at about €2.5 billion at 2007 prices." By whom?

Flaw number 4: "Fares collected from passengers – expected to number 34 million in the first year of operation – would go towards repayments to the private sector partner, but the fares alone are not expected to cover the full annual payment." An underhand way of disguising the journalist's opinion...

What a load of indignant waffle. Reading "underhanded" motives into a report which consists pretty much of straight dry facts.

Flaw number 1: I can't imagine anything more reasonable than expecting 1,000s of copies to be requested considering the statutary bodies, commercial interests as well as the public who will be affected. You demand a survey before a journalist states the obvious? Flaw 2: again, what is your problem? They didn't get the documents from the Pope. The journalist is simply stating their source. Useful for anyone who would like to get more detail. Flaw 3: you complain when the source of the document is stated (Flaw 2) and now you claim not citing the source is a flaw. As for Flaw 4 - it's an entirely factual statement. What part of it is flawed? The passenger numbers or the fact that the farebox is not going to cover the annual payment in what is a novel financing arrangement for a public transport project in this country. Are you offended that this fact is expressed? Would you rather it be hidden?

You really need to get a grip. Your hyperbole and bias has long since lost its (minor) amusement value.

DWCommuter

Metrobest wrote: »

Also I'm not denying the Interconnector's importance as a project for the greater Dublin area (although its impact on sprawl consolodation is another matter), but for the city of Dublin MN is the most essential project to take the city forward; without it the metropolitan area of Dublin will slide into further decline while continued suburbanistan will radiate along the interconnector's corridors.

The more sustainable situation is a high density alternative corridor between Swords and the city which can only take place when MN is operational. But it shouldn't be an either/or. We need - and can well afford - both. There's no excuse. Ireland is not a poor country anymore.

(although its impact on sprawl consolodation is another matter)

Metrobest you surprise me. The interconnector will not contribute to sprawl as its services are fixed at the traditional 1970s CIE county boundary limits, Hazelhatch,Bray,Balbriggan and Maynooth.The original boundary limits for the Dublin rail plan of Drogheda and Kildare town may well have lent some weight to your comment, but the current idea does not.

but for the city of Dublin MN is the most essential project to take the city forward; without it the metropolitan area of Dublin will slide into further decline while continued suburbanistan will radiate along the interconnector's corridors.

You are definetly slipping. Where along Metro North is all this development going to happen? Leaving aside the fact that home building is shot to **** in Dublin right now, the MN route is already developed beyond demand. (apart from the green acres beyond swords that Fingal Co Co have plans for.) And once again the interconnectors corridors are already within the county boundary. Additional services on existing provincial routes, will still run to Heuston and require a change. Hardly an improved incentive to buy a house in Athlone, considering the road network in Ireland is improving quicker than the rail network.

Overall, your view of Ireland is somewhat detached from the reality on the ground as shown below.

The more sustainable situation is a high density alternative corridor between Swords and the city which can only take place when MN is operational. But it shouldn't be an either/or. We need - and can well afford - both. There's no excuse. Ireland is not a poor country anymore

Im still fascinated by this high density corridor and the land its meant to occupy. I drive it everyday and there's more concrete than green belt. As for affording both, who are you kidding? Yes we could've done it with a decent Government that believed in the concept of public transport, but we don't have that and they don't read your posts here either. T21 was nothing more than an election stunt. The money was blown years before it.

And by the way, Ireland is a "poor" country at the moment, when it comes to satisfying the lust of public transport engineers. Unfortunetly they were raped by the semi-detached house builders. But then again the Government placed more emphasis on that, than the concept of getting the semi detached house dwellers to work and back.

Your beliefs and visions are lovely. I respect them. But they are at odds with the political (always were) and economic reality of where this banana republic is heading. October budget will set the stall out. Dream your dream from foreign soil and I'll live my reality rigt here where it happens.

Metrobest

gjim wrote: »

What a load of indignant waffle. Reading "underhanded" motives into a report which consists pretty much of straight dry facts.

What I asked for was obectivity - that's supposed to be a cornerstone of good journalism. You don't need to be an expert in discourse analysis to see
Frank McDonald and the Irish Times in general are failing in this regard. An objective comparion between positive coverage of the interconnector and negative coverage MN clearly shows where the bias lies.

Metrobest

DWCommuter wrote: »

You are definetly slipping. Where along Metro North is all this development going to happen? Leaving aside the fact that home building is shot to **** in Dublin right now, the MN route is already developed beyond demand. (apart from the green acres beyond swords that Fingal Co Co have plans for.) And once again the interconnectors corridors are already within the county boundary. Additional services on existing provincial routes, will still run to Heuston and require a change. Hardly an improved incentive to buy a house in Athlone, considering the road network in Ireland is improving quicker than the rail network.
Im still fascinated by this high density corridor and the land its meant to occupy. I drive it everyday and there's more concrete than green belt. As for affording both, who are you kidding? Yes we could've done it with a decent Government that believed in the concept of public transport, but we don't have that and they don't read your posts here either. T21 was nothing more than an election stunt. The money was blown years before it.

And by the way, Ireland is a "poor" country at the moment, when it comes to satisfying the lust of public transport engineers. Unfortunetly they were raped by the semi-detached house builders. But then again the Government placed more emphasis on that, than the concept of getting the semi detached house dwellers to work and back.

Your beliefs and visions are lovely. I respect them. But they are at odds with the political (always were) and economic reality of where this banana republic is heading. October budget will set the stall out. Dream your dream from foreign soil and I'll live my reality rigt here where it happens.

Swords is a city of just over 30,000 but it can grow to over 100,000 with MN. There are huge tracts of land around the M50 part of the line that can be developed into a sustainable high rise community - but that's all contingent on the metro being built. Along established suburbs, a strategy of urban consolodation is needed.