Would you like to see a united Ireland?

Affable

And how much actual difference would it make?

2Scoops

Affable wrote: »

And how much actual difference would it make?

NI would be a lot poorer and have a lot of pissed off Unionists, for a start. :pac:

Red Hand

Hmmmm...you have any idea the amount of tax money Northen Ireland costs the British taxpayer? A hell of alot! We'd have to foot it instead. Plus, we'd be taking on a million people who do not want to be united with the Republic.

The British created the mess, they can keep it.

Affable

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Hmmmm...you have any idea the amount of tax money Northen Ireland costs the British taxpayer? A hell of alot! We'd have to foot it instead. Plus, we'd be taking on a million people who do not want to be united with the Republic.

The British created the mess, they can keep it.

Do you not think if Scotland broke away from Britain that the NIrish would be more likely to support it for practical reasons?

sink

Affable wrote: »

Do you not think if Scotland broke away from Britain that the NIrish would be more likely to support it for practical reasons?

I'm afraid that many people in NI are not driven by practicality, their positions are based on emotions rather than reason. For this reason I can not see under any circumstance a change in their position. At a minimum it will take 2 generations for them to put their negative feelings towards the republic to bed.

pablomakaveli

im against a united ireland. it would cripple the republic financially and could lead to a civil war with unionists.

northern ireland would probably be better off going it alone as an independent country once its politicians gets the norths economy and other issues sorted.

i think a lot of people in the republic would be opposed.

Affable

pablomakaveli wrote: »

northern ireland would probably be better off going it alone as an independent country once its politicians gets the norths economy and other issues sorted.

I suppose, on second thoughts, it is entirely possible. Seeing as we will all be increasingly controlled by the EU anyway I doubt it makes so much difference for it to be alone.

brianthebard

Affable wrote: »

Do you not think if Scotland broke away from Britain that the NIrish would be more likely to support it for practical reasons?

That's a long way from happening. And what would be practical of NI leaving the union just because Scotland had?

greatgoal

look at the mess were in with 26 counties,wtf would it be like with 32?

irish_bob

Affable wrote: »

Do you not think if Scotland broke away from Britain that the NIrish would be more likely to support it for practical reasons?

i think that would make unionists think again about a united ireland but i think its important to remember that nationalism in scotland is hugely over played in the media , some of the most staunchly pro union people live in scotland along with northern ireland , much more than in england who are a more moderate people in outlook

mikemac

I think it's pretty much inevitable.
It could be 20 or 30 years away, I'll see it in my lifetime for sure

nuac

Suggest the issue of reunification should be left on the back burner for 30/40 years. Too much blood spilt over it- allow time for bitter memories to subside.

tolosenc

Absolutely not. NI should be it's own independant state.

Zombrex

Whether SF likes to admit it or not N.I needs the U.K for the forseeable future, as tax money from the rest of the U.K is really the only thing keeping the N.I economy ticking over. Something like 60% of the work force is employed by the civil service.

I would ideally like to see N.I as a totally independent State within Europe, but even that is a long way off. They need a proper economy, which starts by increases in education.

conceited

I can't believe you call yourself Irish.You lads make me sick to my stomach.
What in gods name is wrong with you.

magick

conceited wrote: »

I can't believe you call yourself Irish.You lads make me sick to my stomach

well im not surprised , these threads are usually recycled every couple of months such as "worst county, you know what annoys me about Ireland, and rip off ireland".

Besides i think a significant amount of people in the north would like to be part of a united ireland.

So to answer this topic for the 11tybillionth time, yes.

LordSutch

United Ireland = Oh no, not this old chestnut again :rolleyes:
Northern Ireland would be a lot poorer off 4 a start, they would lose so much (the NHS comes to mind) & gain what exactly? a New identity - a New Flag - a New Capital City, a New Culture, and a new Anthem!!! –
I don’t think so . . . .

If a so called “United Ireland” whatever that means was foisted upon the North by the British Government you would have a lot of very pissed off Unionists who don’t recognise the Tricolour, who don’t recognise the soldiers song, who don’t recognise the president of the Republic (as their monarch), who don’t recognise the Taoisecah as ‘their’ Prime Minister I also think a lot of people in the Republic would be totally opposed to the very idea of trying to force something that never existed in the first place . . . .

Was there ever a “United Ireland” ? & What does a “United Ireland mean” ?

stovelid

Do you mean that we simply absorb NI into the Republic?

For me, it would be a nice in a romantic (for want of a better word) sense, and that would probably even take precedence over the problems of inheriting a state that has been economically propped up by the British exchequer for most of the period since 1969.

The main problem for me is that a large number of people there simply don't want it, and the inheritance of the gigantic security headache.

Firetrap

Aside from the security problems, I'm not sure we can afford to take on six extra counties at the moment. Though on the positive side, would it mean that we wouldn't have to look at Julian the continuity announcer from UTV anymore?

walrusgumble

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Hmmmm...you have any idea the amount of tax money Northen Ireland costs the British taxpayer? A hell of alot! We'd have to foot it instead. Plus, we'd be taking on a million people who do not want to be united with the Republic.

The British created the mess, they can keep it.

well if they day ever came when citizens of the 6 counties vote to join the "republic", it will take probably a good 750k - one million to vote in favour of joining the "republic", so if it happened many unionists would seem to be in favour. the population after all is almost half and half

as for the tax bill, wtf, the people would be irish themselves. jesus, although i note you are being practicle, but you sound as bad as the unionists of the past (during home rule years) concerned only for self interest. with that attitude i would not blame even nationalists to say no to joining up. for we all know only the eastern and part of the south of the republic get any decent investment, connaught and the north west gets neglected when it comes to jobs, roads, schools etc

Maybe, quite maybe, have a whole island may help bring more investment into the country when it has two - four major/growing cities in the island, not just dublin.

but you are right, before anything could happen both sides would need to get their houses in order.

stovelid

conceited wrote: »

I can't believe you call yourself Irish.You lads make me sick to my stomach.
What in gods name is wrong with you.

I have an unfortunate affliction. It's called forming my own politcial opinions without recourse to nationalism. Sorry about that.

BrenC

I'd like to see it but people in the North would have to vote for joining the republic, a lot of things are treated as all island now anyway. Sports, new gas plans? etc

aquascrotum

I'm not as opposed to it as I once was but in practical terms I don't believe it's feasible.

There are a lot of wounds still being licked, on both sides. Maybe in a generation a real debate could begin based on the practical pro's and con's rather than fundamentalist green blooded uber nationalism vs loyalism.

The current trend of positive ties economically etc will hopefully continue. For the first time in generations Unionists look down south with something other than utter distrust. Thats good news for the island as a whole, and should be fostered. You keep coming up spending a ton in Newry and we'll keep buying your cheap diesel.

In the meantime, buffoon that he is, I'm glad Gordon Brown is in charge of my job, savings and future, and not the gob****es in Leinster House.

djpbarry

micmclo wrote: »

I think it's pretty much inevitable.

Why?

walrusgumble wrote: »

as for the tax bill, wtf, the people would be irish themselves. jesus, although i note you are being practicle, but you sound as bad as the unionists of the past (during home rule years) concerned only for self interest.

I think you'll note that a number of posters have stated that NI would be (economically) worse off outside the union.

walrusgumble wrote: »

Maybe, quite maybe, have a whole island may help bring more investment into the country...

Why? The whole island is in the EU anyway. Besides, if I ran a business, I'd feel much more secure knowing Westminster was looking after things upstairs than I would if Dublin was pulling the strings.

magick

Camelot wrote: »

If a so called “United Ireland” whatever that means was foisted upon the North by the British Government you would have a lot of very pissed off Unionists who don’t recognise the Tricolour, who don’t recognise the soldiers song, who don’t recognise the president of the Republic (as their monarch), who don’t recognise the Taoisecah as ‘their’ Prime Minister

So reverse Republicans they are then.

Kovik

Frankly, the fact that 63% of northern Ireland's GDP is generated by the public sector only demonstrates the horrendous mismanagement and neglect of NI's economy by the British government. Fact doesn't have much bearing on the maddened "THIS IS WORST COUNTRY EVORS" crying that populates these boards (and any "nationally" established message board communities for that matter, no matter the country).

Given that Ireland's per capita GDP is substantially greater than that of the UK and our economic policies have resulting in a mere 35% of Ireland's GDP being publicly generated (versus 43% in the UK) we're probably in a better position to absord Northern Ireland rather than the UK to maintain it.

Currently, I likely would not support the unification of Ireland. While I accept that the north is itself merely the product of gerrymandering and should rightly be unified, acquiring such a large population which is adamant in rejecting any Irish identity would merely cause hassle and distract.

Northern Irish people will forever remain second class citizens within the UK. In my (hopefully objective) view, it's likely in the region's interest to return to the south but should only occur after the impact of the troubles thaws and lapsed unionists begin to warm to being comfortable with an Irish identity they currently only half accept.

Fratton Fred

Kovik wrote: »

Frankly, the fact that 63% of northern Ireland's GDP is generated by the public sector only demonstrates the horrendous mismanagement and neglect of NI's economy by the British government. Fact doesn't have much bearing on the maddened "THIS IS WORST COUNTRY EVORS" crying that populates these boards (and any "nationally" established message board communities for that matter, no matter the country).

Given that Ireland's per capita GDP is substantially greater than that of the UK and our economic policies have resulting in a mere 35% of Ireland's GDP being publicly generated (versus 43% in the UK) we're probably in a better position to absord Northern Ireland rather than the UK to maintain it.

Currently, I likely would not support the unification of Ireland. While I accept that the north is itself merely the product of gerrymandering and should rightly be unified, acquiring such a large population which is adamant in rejecting any Irish identity would merely cause hassle and distract.

Northern Irish people will forever remain second class citizens within the UK. In my (hopefully objective) view, it's likely in the region's interest to return to the south but should only occur after the impact of the troubles thaws and lapsed unionists begin to warm to being comfortable with an Irish identity they currently only half accept.

got any links that back up those GDP figures? I would have thought Ireland had a very heavy dependance on the Public Sector, or does it not count Quangos?

djpbarry

Kovik wrote: »

While I accept that the north is itself merely the product of gerrymandering and should rightly be unified...

It is .

Kovik wrote: »

Northern Irish people will forever remain second class citizens within the UK.

Got anything to back that up? Didn't think so.

Fratton Fred

The fact that the government has sent thousands of civil service jobs to Ireland, basically because no one else wanted to go there, shows two things imho.

Firstly that they haven't mismanaged the economy, they took a course of action to create jobs there and secondly that the people of Northern Ireland are anything but second clas citizens.

There is a disproportionate amount of money spent up there on defence, policing and development grants compared to the rest of the UK.

Using average GDP Per capita is not a particularly good example of how the south can take absorb the north comfortably, especially considering the GDP in the south is a skewed figure anyway due to large companies channeling profits into Ireland to take advantage of the low tax rate.

ChocolateSauce

conceited wrote: »

I can't believe you call yourself Irish.You lads make me sick to my stomach.
What in gods name is wrong with you.

So in order to be Irish we all have to conform with your politics?

I don't support unification any time soon, certainly not as long as the mainland UK is subsidising the North. Whatever it costs them, it will cost us 15 times more per person to do the same job. Plus as has been pointed out, we'd have one million people who considered themselves foreign nationals in the republic.

Also, while the British may be good at annexing territory, we're not. We can't even manage our own country properly, let alone a new province which would have to be brought into line. It would become an extraordinarily expensive and wasteful expedition which would end in a country torn in half, with possible militant action fron extreme unionists.

evil-monkey

conceited wrote: »

I can't believe you call yourself Irish.You lads make me sick to my stomach.
What in gods name is wrong with you.

I could take this comment a lot more serious from a guy who wasn't speaking English...

I'm with the poster who said the romantic notion of a United Ireland is great, but practically, I just can't see how it would work...

The Corinthian

Ireland was once a united country. Sort of. Actually not. The High Kings of Ireland were largely a pseudohistorical creation of the 18th century and the reality is that Ireland was a pretty balkanized place under no single rule. After all, the reason the Normans arrived in Ireland was because they were invited by one such chieftain who wanted to get the upper hand on his rivals.

So historically Ireland was only ever politically united as the possession of another power.

Geographically is the weakest argument as simply being an island does not mean that you have to be a single nation. Look at Hispaniola, or many would argue, even Britain.

The best argument is a single nation is that of a cohesive ethnic entity. Problem with this, however, is that there's a big chunk of the population up there that's ethnically very different to the south, and for that matter, after almost a century of partition, the part that is similar isn't all that similar when you really get to know them - or at least a Scottish Catholic essentially differs from your average southern Irishman on much the same level as an Northern Catholic.

All this before you consider the political, security and economic implications, or for that matter that even the nationalists really want to be reunited - there's a lot of lip service, but is anyone honestly pursuing this? Even the chucks are pretty quiet on the issue.

So, the Irishman in me would have to say that I get all teary-eyed in support of a united Ireland. But once the last chorus of "A Nation Once Again" has subsided and I've sobered up, I'd really have to say, that it's probably time to wake up and smell the bitter coffee of reality.

"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone"... thank fück for that, 'e was a dreadful ejit.

getz

have i got it wrong but wasent it the republic that split up the united ireland?as for as the economy maybe the uk would have been better off if they had not paid all that money out to the eu to prop up french and irish farmers ...... only joking i wish we could have a united ireland but as long as religion has its say it will not happen

LordSutch

Nice one Corinthian, I agree 100%.

Sand

Oh, is it that time of year again - time for the annual "United Ireland" question....

Answer is still no. Let the tribes up there enjoy their own company in the perfect little province theyve made for themselves.

Erin Go Brath

I think its sad that Ireland has never had a 32 County referendum so we could really judge the mood of the people of Ireland for unification. Democracy in it purest form has not been exercised in this country! Our interests and national integrity have always been second to other vested interests namely British and Ulster Unionists who have manufactured and propped up an artifical statelet that a large minority within have no allegiance to.

We will have to wait until Catholics outbreed Protestant in the 6 Counties before a 6 County referendum is triggered by the Secretary of State. This will inevitably happen, but not for another 20-25 years. Then we'll have a United Ireland but not any sooner unless in the unlikely event that Britains just pulls out of Ireland. If Scotland became independent it would be interesting to see what happens the union of the north of ireland and the UK though.

The Corinthian

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I think its sad that Ireland has never had a 32 County referendum so we could really judge the mood of the people of Ireland for unification.

I don't disagree, but I do think you'd get a nasty surprise at the outcome.

After all, northern unionists will say no, northern nationalists are not terribly interested in losing all the subsidies they get from the UK that pay for everything (including the civil service there that essentially supplies around 40% of all jobs), and southerners will not be terribly interested in paying for a state that is little more than an economic drain to the UK.

Not everyone shares your blind patriotism, after all. Some of us live in the Real World.

Erin Go Brath

The Corinthian wrote: »

I don't disagree, but I do think you'd get a nasty surprise at the outcome.

After all, northern unionists will say no, northern nationalists are not terribly interested in losing all the subsidies they get from the UK that pay for everything (including the civil service there that essentially supplies around 40% of all jobs), and southerners will not be terribly interested in paying for a state that is little more than an economic drain to the UK.

Not everyone shares your blind patriotism, after all. Some of us live in the Real World.

I challenge you to find a single poll ever undertaken in the 26 Counties since partition which shows a majority would vote against unification. Most polls i've ever seen on the topic show a 2:1 or higher majority in favour of the unification of the national territory.

Northern nationalists by defintion are nationalist and favour unification. The demographics of the 6 Counties are only heading in one direction which ostensibly means that there are an ever increasing amount of nationalists pro rata in the 6.

Reunification will not be a seamless operation, undoubtedbly there will be teething difficulties but the positive dynamic of an All-Ireland economy will benefit us all in the long term!

The Corinthian

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

I challenge you to find a single poll ever undertaken in the 26 Counties since partition which shows a majority would vote against unification. Most polls i've ever seen on the topic show a 2:1 or higher majority in favour of the unification of the national territory.

Actually, I'd challenge you to show me current and credible polls that support your assertion.

Northern nationalists by defintion are nationalist and favour unification. The demographics of the 6 Counties are only heading in one direction which ostensibly means that there are an ever increasing amount of nationalists pro rata in the 6.

What you seem not to be able to comprehend in your rather simplistic definition of unification are the questions "on what terms" and "at what cost"?

What terms would NI wish to join a united republic? Politically would we be willing to do? Would it end up as another confederated Bosnia-type entity where we would essentially not have one nation but two loosely connected ones? After all, the northern nationalists are unlikely to want to go from a state of being a minority in NI to a minority in a united Ireland.

And the cost? I don't see the UK agreeing to subsidize NI once we take over - and make no mistake, economically it is completely dependant on the public sector, with a disproportionate number of people employed in it and its citizens enjoying generous social programmes. Do you really think the south wants to pay for that or that they want to give it up?

All before we consider what the unionists would do...

Reunification will not be a seamless operation, undoubtedbly there will be teething difficulties but the positive dynamic of an All-Ireland economy will benefit us all in the long term!

You're just coming out with vague terms about the cost and it's pretty obvious you've not really considered it. Indeed, your solution appears to be a case of "sure it'll all work out in the end". Right :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

We will have to wait until Catholics outbreed Protestant in the 6 Counties before a 6 County referendum is triggered by the Secretary of State.

We're back to this old chestnut again.

there a lot of assumptions being made about people not yet born, based on the religion of yet to be parents.

Anyway, I thought this wasn't about religion.

LordSutch

Unification of Two Tribes, how? & why? - being Irish can mean standing for God Save the Queen, or standing for the Soldiers Song/ one Unionist, one Nationalist - Why & How should we try and make them into 'One Type' of Irishness?

But was Ireland ever 'United' in the first place? and were the people of Ireland ever 'One people'? or was Ireland always seperated by different tribes, different relegions, different alligences, different beliefs, with different flags?

I suspect Ireland was never 'United' as one single entity, & I doubt if it ever will be, unless one side gives up their culture/ gives up their Beliefs - gives up their Birthright - Gives up their flag & Anthem and is 'taken over' or becomes like the other . . . ie Unionist becoming Nationalist.

In answer to the original question - NO.

Fighting Irish

Couldn't care less, and anyone who does needs to get their sh1t together.

Its like the black people in america still bitching about slavery.

pablomakaveli

Theres no point in a united ireland.

Whats the benefit of it in this day and age. It would simply create more problems.

Sand

I challenge you to find a single poll ever undertaken in the 26 Counties since partition which shows a majority would vote against unification. Most polls i've ever seen on the topic show a 2:1 or higher majority in favour of the unification of the national territory.

No poll has ever acknowledged the real costs and compromises that would have to be made to even *attempt* to accomadate the Unionists. I doubt youve ever even considered the shopping list the DUP and UUP could present as a price for not stirring up their voter, let alone the loyalists, against a Dublin government. With the amount of leverage they would have they could demand "God Save the Queen" as a second anthem with equal footing with the "Soldiers Song" at every state event....

djpbarry

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

...the positive dynamic of an All-Ireland economy will benefit us all in the long term!

Why?

ChocolateSauce

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Reunification will not be a seamless operation, undoubtedbly there will be teething difficulties but the positive dynamic of an All-Ireland economy will benefit us all in the long term!

We already have one- the EU is a no holds barred free trade area. Of course by your logic I'm sure you wouldn't oppose a single EU state with one large economy for the benefit of all....right?

turgon

Well I think we can pretty much agree that NI is like a black hole with tax money, whether its in the UK or the Republic. So when we have our referendum down here to decide on unification (a referendum will be necessary to edit the constitution), a big list will be made of which voters voted which way.

If you voted NO to unification you get to live life normally. All efforts will be made to ensure that the transition will have no economic effect on your life.

If, on the other hand, you voted YES, you will have to pay the cost for the North. A big tally will be had of how much of a strain the North will be on our public finances, from subsidies to government etc. This tally will then be funded by those who actually wanted this economic mess. In effect, if you vote YES your tax will be jacked up to accommodate the financial repercussions of your vote.

Fair enough? Give me a reason why not!

dlofnep

Yes, I support and would like to see Irish Unity. The North is too small to survive as an independant state on it's own and British rule in the North has been laughable at best.

gally74

yes,

if people come together,

O'Morris

I would very much love to see a united Ireland and I hope to see it in my lifetime. I consider my country to be Ireland rather than the republic of Ireland and I've always hated the idea of it being divided. I think in hindsight it would have been better if we didn't leave the union with Britain when we did. We should have waited for a few decades to develop our economy under British rule. We would have eventually had devolution anyway like the Scots and the Welsh and the level of independence we would have had as part of the United Kingdom would not have been all that different from the level of independence we now have as part of the European Union. An Ireland united under British rule is still preferable in my mind to an Ireland divided under Brussels rule.

I would prefer if a united Ireland didn't mean we'd have to add a million orangemen to our population but hopefully a lot of those people will move to Britain when it does happen, the same way that many unionists in the 26 counties moved there after partition. For the people who remain I think we will need to make some sacrifices. We'll need to develop stronger links with Britain (our nearest neighbour and still one of our main trading partners) and possibly give a minor consitutional role to the British monarch. I agree with Kevin Myers as well who said that we should consider coming up with a new flag and a new anthem that would be more acceptable to the unionists. The symbolism of the tricolour is perfect but sadly it has become associated with violent republicanism in the eyes of the unionists and so I can't see it having any future in a united Ireland.

Anyway, the sacrifices we'll need to make to accomodate the orangemen will not be as great in the long-term as the sacrifices we'll need to make to accomodate the Poles and the Nigerians and the Chinese and the muslims. I think it's a bit ironic that many of the people who argue against a united Ireland because the orangemen are not like us are the same people who would be quick to jump on anyone who makes the same point when arguing in favour of stricter immigration controls.

A united Ireland will cost us financially but I think we can afford it and many of us would be happy to pay the price for the fourth green field. I remember seeing a poll on this a few years ago that showed most people in the 26 counties would still support a united Ireland even if it meant an increase in the amount of tax we'll have to pay. It will only be temporary anyway as eventually the two parts of the country will become fully integrated and we'll share the tax burden equally. The north will be moving in the direction of greater economic self-reliance and so the financial burden will not be as great after another ten years as it is anois. If the north unites with the south they will have the same corporation tax and so they will be much more competitive than they are now.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Anyway, the sacrifices we'll need to make to accomodate the orangemen will not be as great in the long-term as the sacrifices we'll need to make to accomodate the Poles and the Nigerians and the Chinese and the muslims.

:rolleyes:

Is there anything you can discuss without having a swipe at foreigners?