The Loudness War Thread

jtsuited

Ok seems we've been talking about 'quality' in relation to music recently, and despite being an internet forum about Music Production, there has been very little said about the Loudness Wars. So here we go!

I've been a little perplexed by this issue for a good while now because as far as I was concerned there was always a lot of over-limiting going on in popular music. Admittedly that may come from my upbringing around classical music.

But of course now we're in the ridiculous era of records coming out that have hardly any dynamic range at all. And unfortunately there are a lot of people who feel they need to compete in the level battle, and are willing to sacrifice a good bit of sound quality just so their record is as loud as other artists in the genre.

I think much of this is a reflection of the industry as a whole. I'll explain what I mean:
Many bands/artists nowadays have the idea in their head that their only source of income is going to be gigs, and hence are taking the approach of 'we make money from the gigs, records are really just promotional tools to play gigs'.
So they look at their recordings as 'advertisements'. Which, to me, is fcuking ridiculous. I've been working with a few people over the past few years who have echoed this sentiment to me.

So if their music is just an advertisement, they do exactly what advertising people have been attempting to do - make it louder than all the other ads because shouting the loudest is always best!

Have you ever been watching a movie on Channel 4 and when the 'sponsored by stella artois' thingy (could be something different now, this one sticks in my mind for some reason) comes, it gives you a physical fright because it's so bloody loud compared to the film?

Then the commercial break commences and it's just 3-5 minutes of an aural assault, where you end up turning it down for fear of it driving you proper bonkers. I imagine I am not alone in this?

Well, you see I can understand the advertising situation described above. Those guys are trying to sell a product and we have no choice over what ads we see (and hear obv), so we're pretty much victim to them trying to shout the loudest.
No big deal, make a nice cup of tea or go for a smoke or whatever during the ad break.
Ok, y'all still with me?

So if bands/artists are looking at their records as advertisements (which is depressing to me), they are pretty much just engaging in the same sort of practices by mastering their music to stupidly loud levels. Yeah?

Well no, because bands/artists don't advertise on telly (most of the time - i'm gonna leave music videos out of this whole thing because it's not difficult for an artist to have a differently mastered audio track on their videos).

The only place that comes near to the telly/advertising/shouting match paradigm is when they are being played on radio. But guess what, FM radio is compressed to bejaysus anywho, and records are gonna sound around the same level. A stupidly loud/smashed record is not gonna sound much louder (if at all) than anything else.

Then the ipod argument. Let's presume you all have had your ipod on shuffle mode a good few amount of times.

Who here (show of hands please), has ever changed the track because it was quieter than the track before? Like me, you probably do the sensible thing and TURN THE VOLUME UP.
I have never ever once had my ipod on shuffle (i do it quite a bit) and skipped a track because of loudness. I've skipped a track for pretty much every other reason though (**** band/artist, **** song, **** drummer, etc), but I don't think loudness has ever come into my decision.

Then the previewing online argument.
Ok, itunes preview isn't very high quality, and maybe being loud in your preview may entice someone to buy your record. Maybe.

But a lot of the online vendors' preview players are so low quality and compressed that (just like in our radio example) overly loud records are just gonna sound more distorted than others, not louder.

I know when I'm browsing on beatport (which wins my award for sh1ttiest sounding preview player 2008 - it peaks the crap out of my DAC and there's no actual volume control on it!) I'm constantly turning down my output amp to try and get some idea of what the track may sound like .
Being a producer that dj's (and of course remembering I'm in a genre that is pretty much based on the idea of listening beforehand and then buying - even in vinyl's heyday), I do a lot of browsing through er, acres of music everyday.

I have not once taken level into account when choosing a track to buy. And I have noticed that some are a lot louder than others. But it's never been a concern. And looking at the beatport charts, there are plenty of comparatively quiet records in the top ten of most genres.

While a lot of techno/minimal tracks are smashed to fook, a lot of the time it stylistically suits the music so no harm there. And some of the really big records are often surprisingly quieter than others (you find just how much there is of a difference there is when you're djing - luckily dj mixers give plenty of control over your gain structure). And anywho, dance music doesn't sound too bad when it's overcompressed. Not half as bad as rock/pop where we should be hearing something a lot more human etc. with a decent dynamic range.


What got me thinking about this was, on my mid-morning break this morning I accidentally turned on the music television channels, and as I was flicking through the usual aural assault, I heard something really nice.

It was some show of Queen's best videos (I have never been much of a Queen fan btw), and I could hear all the instruments. And there was a nice bit of punch and clarity. And despite being on television, it sounded quite good. And the next video came on, and I wanted to listen to it the whole way through. And the next one too.

So I figured I was in a funny mood or something, and then I turned on to the next channel. And lo and behold I got hit by that feckin Chris Brown track. Now while I think it is possibly the most horrible piece of recorded music, it was so squashed, harsh, muddy, and just generally crapper. And more exhausting on my ears. And was just bloody unpleasant.

And it got me thinking about this crazy world we live in!

DamagedTrax

a limiter in the wrong hands is a pretty horrible thing.

cornbb

Its hard to know why in the hell this is going on. I think you're right, its just part of the effort to get noticed, like the TV ads. But I think dynamic range is a valuable asset to any composer/producer and can be very effectively used as part of their expressional arsenal, and compression/limiting can completely destroy that. Just listen to the opening bars of Mozart's Requiem - the whole feel of it would be completely destroyed if modern pop compression/mastering techniques were applied to it. Producers and artists are limiting what they can do creatively, by just using compression the way they are now.

On the other hand, extremely heavy compression can also be used to great artistic effect. Listen to "Everything You Do Is A Balloon" by Boards of Canada (not a bangin' dance tune by any stretch of the imagination!) - the limiting is extreme, it's in your face, but it lends a beautiful slow pulsating feel to the tune. It would be worse off without it. But of course that's the exception, not the rule.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

On the other hand, extremely heavy compression can also be used to great artistic effect. Listen to "Everything You Do Is A Balloon" by Boards of Canada (not a bangin' dance tune by any stretch of the imagination!) - the limiting is extreme, it's in your face, but it lends a beautiful slow pulsating feel to the tune. It would be worse off without it. But of course that's the exception, not the rule.

I know the track well. Perfect example actually.

sei046

TBH I think dynamics is just going the way that good performers, tuning, originality and musicianship did. Its expendable with todays tools and trends. Its not really relevant to the masses anymore. The musos in the world are still buzzing off music with a large dynamic range because even if we dont notice it, we still like the sound of the record for it. Now I know us here in a Music production forum notice it, but someone who just likes their music will notice a dynamic range without really knowing what it is.

Its like that spice girls vocal sound, their fans know it, only we know its autotune.

sei046

jtsuited wrote: »

I know the track well. Perfect example actually.

OR! the cymbals in immortality but Pearl Jam. I HATED it when I first heard it but its an artistic thing.

mike65

This is an observation as a listener - I know I'm kinda old for bothering to seek out new music but what may put me off more than anything is the sound of what I glimpse on music tv and hear on radio. Everything is too loud, dynamics hardly exist anymore it seems as all the elements slug it out within a few % of each others maximum/minimum range. It wearying.

Well modulated singing has been placed by the sound of turbocharged yelling, where has the space gone? Is this a generational thing? Do younger (post MTV) producers/mixers instinctivly want to fill every last nook and cranny with sound?

Mike.

sei046

mike65 wrote: »

Do younger (post MTV) producers/mixers instinctivly want to fill every last nook and cranny with sound?

Very good way of putting it.

jtsuited

mike65 wrote: »

Do younger (post MTV) producers/mixers instinctivly want to fill every last nook and cranny with sound?

Mike.

I'm a young (relatively speaking) producer and I don't think that's the issue.

Maybe it's somehow related to the democratization of technology (much like the 'more shizit' thread).

cornbb

mike65 wrote: »

Well modulated singing has been placed by the sound of turbocharged yelling, where has the space gone? Is this a generational thing? Do younger (post MTV) producers/mixers instinctivly want to fill every last nook and cranny with sound?

Mike.

You sound like Bob Dylan - what's this he famously said - "these new records, they've got sound all over them" or something like that.

Pop/rock/mainstream stuff is brutal for all of this but in fairness if you dig a little deeper its still possible to find songs that can contain both whispers and screaming. If you know what I mean.

trackmixstudio

The customer is ALWAYS right (even when they are wrong)
and most customers want their stuff as loud a commercially available cds so for the time being at least the war is over and over compressed distorted sh1te has won and clear dynamic beautifulness has lost.

It's funny because I was listening to "wish you were here" the other night and thought OMG this album would get ruined these days with the start of "shine on.." squashed to nearly the level where the drums kick in.

Sad as it is, most mixes I do end up with a combination of Sonnox limiter and inflator tweaked until it hits -7RMS.

jtsuited

so is it a case of educating the customers about loudness etc?

ogy

yeh its a real shame things have gone like this.

the problem with it is its one of those things you can only appreciate over time. like if your average joe listens to an mp3 and a cd, they will tell you they hear no difference, or at least no difference that they care about. But if they listen to nothing but mp3s for a month or two. then listened to a CD, the difference in quality would be immediately noticeable.

The problem with over compression is that to the average ear the disadvantages are not immediately noticeable, more likley they would subconsciously dislike an album for being over compressed after listening to it a few times and not knowing why it does not please their ear to listen to it.

PaulBrewer

mike65 wrote: »

Do younger (post MTV) producers/mixers instinctivly want to fill every last nook and cranny with sound?

Mike.

Mike's point is probably looking in the direction of the explanation.

Most of us 'musicmakers' (I use the term as loose as is necessary) have a long term interest in music and all things related to it, hence being here in the first place.

But extract yourself from that line of though and put music as just ' entertainment ' as it might relate to the masses, in with all the other forms of 'entertainment'.

How the loudness thing came about makes much more sense then. Music and Music Television, is competing directly with Video games for Da Yoof of today's attention. They have the most sophisticated Whizz Bang soundtracks. and thats what an MTV style audience expect and I guess, want.

Have you ever heard that Nickleodeon TV chan? Jaysus, Baghdad was quieter during the invasion...

How do you get attention in a crowded bar?- you shout .... that's all it is - musical shouting.

The Entertainment Bar is packed now and they're still letting people in .... Bring yer Lug Plugs.

120_Minutes

If anyone is interested, elbows last album was released in conjuncton with turnmeup, who are trying to bring back dynamic range to recordings. and it won the mercury prize too.....

http://www.turnmeup.org/

PaulBrewer

120_Minutes wrote: »

If anyone is interested, elbows last album was released in conjuncton with turnmeup, who are trying to bring back dynamic range to recordings. and it won the mercury prize too.....

http://www.turnmeup.org/

Tell them to get it in the shops, I went into buy it on CD today and they didn't have it ...

Seziertisch

Weezer also took the same decision regarding their last album, deliberately having it mastered to a level similar to what would have been around in the late 80's/early 90's.

As for radio, I find most radio stations kind of unlistenable, all the music has this kind of kkkkcccchhh thing going on. Spin, I have noticed, is particularly bad.

That said, the stuff that tends to sound better on these stations is older stuff. This is discussed in Bob Katz's Mastering Audio.

As to the origins of the loudness wars, hip-hop and club music had a lot to do with it. Essentially, guys wanted their tracks to sound like music did over a heavily compressed high-powered club sound system.

tweeky

Seziertisch wrote: »

As to the origins of the loudness wars, hip-hop and club music had a lot to do with it. Essentially, guys wanted their tracks to sound like music did over a heavily compressed high-powered club sound system.

It even goes back to the Beatles playing their US R&B and Motown records to the Abbey Road mastering engineers and looking for more level in the bottom end and a louder cut overall.

iquinn

tweeky wrote: »

It even goes back to the Beatles playing their US R&B and Motown records to the Abbey Road mastering engineers and looking for more level in the bottom end and a louder cut overall.

exactly, if you read/listen to any interviews with old engineers they'll say the goal of mastering was always better/louder.
but now of course it's gone too far.

I think there's definitely a lot more awareness about it in the last few years and maybe things will change. But I think it'll probably be the smaller bands and labels that will lead the change.

Ted Jensen refused to have his mastering credit on the new metallica album as it was already smashed to bits when he got it. Fans apparently aren't too happy with the sound of it.

jtsuited

iquinn wrote: »

Ted Jensen refused to have his mastering credit on the new metallica album as it was already smashed to bits when he got it. Fans apparently aren't too happy with the sound of it.

here be more info on it

sei046

Interesting. Still havent heard the album.

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

Ted Jensen refused to have his mastering credit on the new metallica album as it was already smashed to bits when he got it.

But he still Mastered it? Sounds a bit odd don't you think?

If I was in the same situation I wouldn't do it ............ if those where my convictions.

Perhaps ole Ted is mastering his cake and pretending to not eat it.

There's a local Irish band who have just released and album and it's positively melted with mastering and done in a very reputable House.

I predict it will enter the Irish Album chart at Number 2 next week.

Seziertisch

I would presume that if Ted is a pro, he would have done it because he agreed in advance to do it.

What class of a gobsheen would he be, if, upon hearing the mix he said "I know I said I would but I've changed my mind now".

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

I would presume that if Ted is a pro, he would have done it because he agreed in advance to do it.

What class of a gobsheen would he be, if, upon hearing the mix he said "I know I said I would but I've changed my mind now".

The same Pro who'd say " I'll do it , but don't tell anyone ...."

tweeky

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The same Pro who'd say " I'll do it , but don't tell anyone ...."

Bet you he still cashed the cheque!

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

Bet you he still cashed the cheque!

I'd say so too!

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The same Pro who'd say " I'll do it , but don't tell anyone ...."

yeah, there's definitely a case of 'then why do it', but ultimately he's an employee of sterling sound, maybe he was just told to do it.
Still a guy at his level could probably easily have said no thanks.

sei046

I imagine it was a " right...if thats what you want...". he would have obviously said lads....remix that...they must have said no..so fairs fair.

nyarlothothep

When I'm listening to music on the train/in town, the more modern records, which have received the smashed dynamics treatment, are easier to listen to, given the extraneous noises which will drown out older records at full volume. I'm not a fan of in ear headphones as they keep falling out and are bit invasive, so the mastering in this case helps. (I'm not a fan of such mastering though).

PaulBrewer

nyarlothothep wrote: »

When I'm listening to music on the train/in town, the more modern records, which have received the smashed dynamics treatment, are easier to listen to, given the extraneous noises which will drown out older records at full volume. I'm not a fan of in ear headphones as they keep falling out and are bit invasive, so the mastering in this case helps. (I'm not a fan of such mastering though).

That's an interesting point -
Have you every heard 'young folk' on the Dart listening to dance music on their phone speakers? It sounds like everything is mixed to fit into that tiny bandwidth including pitch shifting the voice.

Music for the context in which it's listened, I guess.

PaulBrewer

iquinn wrote: »

but ultimately he's an employee of sterling sound, maybe he was just told to do it.
.

He's actually one of the owners.

tweeky

PaulBrewer wrote: »

He's actually one of the owners.

He would hardly turn it away, you always have to balance the "music business" with the "business of music". When a band makes a smart comment about some of a studios clientele they can always be reminded that it was Dido/Phil Collins/Blur/Oasis/kylie that paid for the Neve desk and Dyno..lec..KRK monitors that their tuneless warblings are going thru.

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

He would hardly turn it away, you always have to balance the "music business" with the "business of music".

I remember being on tour with Something Happens in the US in the 90s.
There was always a cheer and a clap every time their label mate Phil Collins came on the radio.
They knew they weren't earning enough money to keep the show on the road so someone had to!

squibs

Punters dont want hi-fi - they want snake oil. In the 80s it was bass boost and smiley-face eqs, now it is savage compression and limiting. The in-sound will change, and it's changing already. It is just another fashion and the backlash will be just as strong as it was against the reverb-mania of the 80s, or the gated reverb snare, or the flanger on the fretless bass, or the DX7 EP sound. And mark my words, those sounds will come around again - I predict you'll be hearing the Paul Young bass sound on a number of top 10 singles before 2010 is over.

I'm definitely hearing more dynamics in music over the last year or so, I'm just afraid of what the new fad will be...

Ultimately, the quality acts will continue to hire quality engineers and produce quality music for audiophiles who can hear the difference.

tweeky

squibs wrote: »

Punters dont want hi-fi - they want snake oil. In the 80s it was bass boost and smiley-face eqs,

Thought i had OCD in the eighties flattening all them smiley eq's and releasing the loudness buttons on every rack system and 3 in 1 i saw.

iquinn

PaulBrewer wrote: »

He's actually one of the owners.

maybe he told himself he'd fire himself if he didn't do it.....

jtsuited

jaysus maybe metallica's new album might be the thing to put a stop to all this madness.

just look at how they managed to stop all illegal filesharing a few years back. oh, hold on:D

sei046

jtsuited wrote: »

jaysus maybe metallica's new album might be the thing to put a stop to all this madness.

just look at how they managed to stop all illegal filesharing a few years back. oh, hold on:D

Oh jt your too cynical, All them uploads were just slips of the mind!

jtsuited

sei046 wrote: »

Oh jt your too cynical, All them uploads were just slips of the mind!

i know i know. i've often uploaded the entire metallica collection to rapidshare because I wasn't paying attention. It can happen anyone:D

TelePaul

I just hate going from listening to 'Harvest' by Neil Young to 'Born to Run' by Springsteen...lets keep in mind that some albums are a little on the quiet side. i know that's not what's strictly being discussed here, I just figured it was worth mentioning here.

Also, on another related note, I think amateur 'musicians-cum-sound engineers' (like me) become a little obsessed with loudness. This is because when we mix down something for a friend/'client', we dutifully neglect the comparatively expensive mastering process. So when the friend/client calls the next day and complains that their demo is quieter than the commercial records they own, we just slap on a master limiter and be done with it.

dav nagle

TelePaul wrote: »

I just hate going from listening to 'Harvest' by Neil Young to 'Born to Run' by Springsteen...lets keep in mind that some albums are a little on the quiet side. i know that's not what's strictly being discussed here, I just figured it was worth mentioning here.

Also, on another related note, I think amateur 'musicians-cum-sound engineers' (like me) become a little obsessed with loudness. This is because when we mix down something for a friend/'client', we dutifully neglect the expensive comparatively expensive mastering process. So when the friend/client calls the next day and complains that their demo is quieter than the commercial records they own, we just slap on a master limiter and be done with it.

very true

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

Also, on another related note, I think amateur 'musicians-cum-sound engineers' (like me) become a little obsessed with loudness. This is because when we mix down something for a friend/'client', we dutifully neglect the comparatively expensive mastering process. So when the friend/client calls the next day and complains that their demo is quieter than the commercial records they own, we just slap on a master limiter and be done with it.

This is true. We try and not let any mixes out at all til mastered. If we have to give out an unfinished track, we'll squeeze it in through a Limiter to raise the level.

Neurojazz

I think we should all rebel against the loudness war and release a blank CD with some earplugs and let the punters use their *imagination*

Sorry if my stupidity lowers the tone of the thread

mike65

Mastered to -70 dB

Mike.

iquinn

Neurojazz wrote: »

I think we should all rebel against the loudness war and release a blank CD with some earplugs and let the punters use their *imagination*

Sorry if my stupidity lowers the tone of the thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3

Neurojazz

omg - does this mean that every silence between every track ever made infringes his copywrite of this 4'33 tracks? - this means he could sue everyone who uses silence.... i should have been a lawyer

cornbb

Neurojazz wrote: »

omg - does this mean that every silence between every track ever made infringes his copywrite of this 4'33 tracks? - this means he could sue everyone who uses silence.... i should have been a lawyer

Crap, I've been performing that piece live all morning without permission from the publisher if anyone hears heh about this I'm screwed...

Neurojazz

actually boards.ie are streaming it 24/7, will have to sue.

jtsuited

i met a guy years ago who actually recorded a performance of 4'33.

well it was more he recorded a recital and that was one of the works in the middle that they had to record as part of the contract stuff.

With the quality of mastering these days I reckon there are a few people that could make that recording sound worse than the original!

mike65

Worth a read from Stylus

http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/imperfect-sound-forever.htm

Mike.

PaulBrewer

nyarlothothep wrote: »

When I'm listening to music on the train/in town, the more modern records, which have received the smashed dynamics treatment, are easier to listen to, given the extraneous noises which will drown out older records at full volume. I'm not a fan of in ear headphones as they keep falling out and are bit invasive, so the mastering in this case helps. (I'm not a fan of such mastering though).

I've just been listening to Elbow in the car .....

whilst it's dynamic range is enjoyable at home it makes little sense on the Route 66 Autobahn 'tween Portlaoise and Tullamore ....