Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, interpretations

Martin25

I thought it may be useful to outline some of the basic differences in the interpretation of JKD.

The Seattle Era
The Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute Seattle was the place where the foundation of Bruce Lee's martial art was established in the early 1960s.
Students are taught basic kicking,punching, footwork, trapping,chi sao and energy sensitivity,wooden dummy set,Si Lim Tao. There is a lot of emphasis on physical fitness training with equipment and sparring. Theories such as simplicity ,directness and economy of motion are taught. Bruce Lee's philosophy is taught.

Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, Oakland Era (1964) This is the place where Bruce Lee changed his original Wing Chun based methods and added ,western boxing, fencing ideas, kickboxing and sparring. This is the time that he called his art Jeet Kune Do.

Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, Chinatown Era (1967)
This is the place where Bruce Lee integrated his martial art and developed his "way of no way". However he still taught the best way he knew how to to punch, kick, intercept, stop hit, 5 ways of attack, sparring and so on. He investigated grappling and ground fighting at this time and trained with noted wrestlers. This training method is generally regarded as "Original JKD".

Jeet Kune Do Concepts
When Bruce Lee passed away in 1973, JKD concepts was born, it did not exist during his lifetime. Many JKD Concepts Instructors appear to view JKD not as a training and fighting method but as a philosophy to help students to maximise their potiential. Many different martial arts such as Kali, Silat BJJ, savate, Thai Boxing, are taught to students to help them to develop their own "personal JKD".

Functional Jeet Kune Do
Some have brought yet a different interpretation to JKD by dropping all of what they call Bruce Lee's "outdated dead pattern " training method in favour of what they name "aliveness" . This incorporates; BJJ,Thai Boxing, Greco Roman Wrestling and other arts. This method appears to have much in common with MMA.

Proponents of all the above methods are sincere in their belief that they are seeking "the truth".

Tim_Murphy

Interesting post Martin.

Whilst people may think that they have "the truth", I would question if many people are really seeking it. I would guess that many are merely asserting that they have it, which really is not the same thing at all. If somebody is looking for truth in combat they can only find that by testing what they are doing, and then going back and refining what it is they are doing in relation to the results. If people really test what they do, and not just amongst themselves but again others, then the mystery is taken out of it and what actually works in real fighting becomes apparent.

Martin25

Good point Tim.
I was attempting to illustrate the very basic origins and interpretation of JKD for a reader who may not be aware of this.

I don't think that anyone has a monopoly on the truth.

On your other comment/ question in relation to the testing of martial arts in relation to pressure testing.
The question then is the usual one that always comes up in different guises.
How do we pressure test?
Against street fighters with no rules?
In sports tournaments full contact and MMA in a cage with rules?
In BJJ and grappling tournaments?
In the gym in hard sparring standing up and on the ground?
With no rules or restrictions and using any weapon?
Against multiple attackers etc?
Which ones of the above are acceptable? Legal? Advisable?

Tim_Murphy

On your other comment/ question in relation to the testing of martial arts in relation to pressure testing.
The question then is the usual one that always comes up in different guises.
How do we pressure test?
Against street fighters with no rules?
In sports tournaments full contact and MMA in a cage with rules?
In BJJ and grappling tournaments?
In the gym in hard sparring standing up and on the ground?
With no rules or restrictions and using any weapon?
Against multiple attackers etc?
Which ones of the above are acceptable? Legal? Advisable?

Well I guess that would depend on what claims one is making about what they are doing. For example, I have zero interest in being able to fight multiple attackers outside SuperMacs, so don't test what I do to see how I might do in a such a situation.

Martin25

Tim
I don't make any big claims about what I do other than its interesting ,enjoyable,has changed my life for the better physically and mentally. It has given me basic self defence skills which I use to mostly avoid trouble.
JKD has enabled me to meet and make friends with people from across the world and the philosophy behind it has been important to me and to my students.

One of the most important aspects for me has been something that John Little wrote to me about in 1999, which is in the articles section of our website www.jkdireland.com

Martin25

Tim here it is;
Dear Martin,
I would like to speak to you and James Bishop about a Symposium concept I have with regard to starting a series of dialogues and global conferences about Bruce Lee's thought and philosophy and its applications to modern life.
On a more personal note, Martin, I am very proud of the work you are doing in Belfast. Of all the "success" stories I've heard thus far, I can honestly say that I am most impressed by yours. You have taken a precept such as "Knowing is not enough, we must apply" ... and given it the breath of life via your actions. Putting into practice correct principles leads to results, and , when this is done in the realm of philosphy, you have the opportunity to impact history .. for, history is a warehouse of cultural ideas; some good, others bad. In this respect, my esteem for your efforts rises far above what I would accord those who focus solely on Bruce Lee's combative ability or physical prowess. The ways of the fist are limited, the ways of the human mind infinite. Your ability to bring together people of diverse (and often violent) background, uniting them in the name of Bruce Lee and allowing them to thaw their own barriers in order to comprehend a broader, deeper and more meaningful and harmonious vision of life is something so sacred that my words are utterly inadequate in attempting to describe it.
Let me share with you a passage of Bruce Lee's that no one (not even Linda) has seen before. I just discovered it last week in the back of one of Bruce's old college notebooks. Bruce began to jot these thoughts down when he (presumably) became bored in class or was simply possessed by their import. I think they might prove helpful in your daily life .. and in your occupation. Please consider the following:-
"There is no where for man to go out this world, not tavern in which he can overcome anxitey, no jail in which he can expiate guilt. So instead of telling us what the problem is, Zen insists that the whole trouble is just our failure to realise that there is no problem. And, of course, this means that there is no solution, either. Zen wishes to escape the pointless endeavour to trap life in a metaphysical net instead of simply living it ... The round of summer and winter becomes a blessing the moment we give up the fantasy of eternal spring."
"[The] source of trouble in religion is attribute to the cause with doctrine, rules, prejudices."
Anyway, Martin - please accept my profound gratitude for what you're doing in Belfast. I'm sure it is not commented upon often, but I can assure you your work is not going unnoticed. It is making a difference.
John Little Director,
Bruce Lee Educational Foundation (1999)

spiral

what do you want a medal :rolleyes:

Roper

For me there's something really depressing about that letter above. It's nothing to do with you Martin, I'm sure you're doing a great job teaching what you do. It's the fact that years after his death, people are looking through Bruce Lee's college books in search of some insight into his character, his philosophy and so on. As though that will eventually lead to some unique insight into how to fight more effectively.

I'm no expert on Bruce Lee, (I leave that to the Gareth from The Office types who I know) but anything I've ever read has been remarkably simple, and not requiring any analysis other than train hard and keep it simple. He was obviously an intelligent guy without being mind-blowingly insightful, and I don't get the fascination with his philosophies which I've always found to be of the sort you might find in self help books. Maybe if people looked further than the martial arts shelf in bookshops they might find more clear credos by which to live their life or examine. The only thing that keeps this whole Bruce Lee legend alive is the fact that he died young.

Just my opinion.

Martin25

Guys, it does not matter, have a happy and enjoyable life, thats the main thing!

spiral

Martin if it doesent matter why post it in the first place.
TBH I think people would rather hear your opinions not articles from other people. I wouldnt go around quoting Helio or Rickson if someone asked me about Bjj, I would tray and explain it in my own words

Martin25

Just keep on insulting people and you will have great success in life.
Have a nice one.

spiral

Grand so keep on seeing insults where there are none, keep on posting articles from other people without articulating your own views, keep on sidestepping any questions when asked, keep on telling everyone none of it matters then posting more stuff, keep on keeping on Martin.

April Raine

Roper wrote: »

I'm no expert on Bruce Lee, (I leave that to the Gareth from The Office types who I know) but anything I've ever read has been remarkably simple, .

have you read Arthur Goldman's article, not very flattering

Martin25

The thread I posted was written by me.
I would be interested in your opinion on the post. Do you think its reasonably accurate or not?

Martin25

I read the Goldman article years ago. From what I remember he did quite a nasty hatchet job on Bruce Lee!

Martin25

Why not quote Rickson and Helio Gracie they are brilliant Instructors?

dlofnep

"Shoo shitzoo my fren"

spiral

Martin I dont quote them because , Ive never met them or trained with them or read any of Helios books.
I am sure they are great instructors but having personally never met or conversed with them I wouldnt presume to quote them or try and interpret what they are/were thinking.

Also Martin I still think your original post is just rehashing what camps/schools JKD has not really telling anyone hear your experience of JKD or why you do it , how you train etC

April Raine

Martin25 wrote: »

I read the Goldman article years ago. From what I remember he did quite a nasty hatchet job on Bruce Lee!

Hi Martin
I honestly do not know if it was a nasty hatchet job or if he was exposing a dark side which was not shown by the myth. Who is to know the truth in all that has been written, reminds me of Goldman and john Lennon which was so different to official bios

Martin25

If you tell me how you train then I might tell you how we train?
Is that not fair enough?

spiral

yer hard work.
I dont mind how you train. But anyways since you asked.
I train BJJ/Sub Wrestling.A typical 2 hour class starts with 10-15 mins warmup calisthenics etc.
Then the next 45-60 mins is usually where the material for that class is taught typically 2-3 moves on whatever the focus is that week (top game, escapes , pins, working the half guard etc). The moves are introduced then drilled with little or resistance until everyone is at least familiar with what they should be doing.
then the resistance is increased so that you are making it a little bit harder for your partner to finish. they shouldnt be succeeding 100 % of the time or failing 100% of the time.
OR
you may start off in the position one guy on bottom one guy on top and everyone tries to figure out what they would do first then theres a bit of q +a with the guy taking the class before he points out what mistakes people were making / what they were doing right why this was so etc before introducing the moves and drilling introducing the moves and variations of and gradually increasing the resistance

Then usually the last 45-60 mins is spent rolling/sparring in one format or another usually 5 min rounds sometimes winner stays on depending again on what is being taught etc.
Then finally there is usually a cool down /stretching session at the end

cowzerp

My interpretation of bruce lee's philosophies is use whats effective and forget the rest! supposedly bruce done some boxing training and was shocked how effective it was without any bull**** training added!

then he used the stuff he knew in a more boxing type way, using what he felt worked from his wing chun days and leaving the rest out, i believe jkd would of evolved into mma if bruce did not die so young, as mma follows his principles closer in my opinion..

Martin25

Spiral
Thanks for sharing, I admire the work ethic displayed by this type of training.
I have not sidestepped or deliberately avoided questions and am still looking forward to any real substantive response to my post from you or anyone else.

Martin25

John Little was Bruce Lee's official biographer and it was his job to read everything that Bruce had ever written,thats why he read his notebooks.
That is how the bruce Lee "in his own words" series of books were compiled.

Martin25

JKD may sometimes resemble MMA but it is a martial art in its own right. Just as BJJ or Shotokan is a seperate martial art.

dlofnep

JKD isn't a martial art, but more an ideology. Use what works, discard the rest. MMA is a working example of JKD. If Bruce was alive today - he'd say "That's it. That's what I have been talking about". No question about it.

Martin25

I agree "use what works"
However Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is a recognised martial art.
Don't just take my word for it look for yourself.
www.bruceleefoundation.com

cowzerp

Martin25 wrote: »

I agree "use what works"
However Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is a recognised martial art.
Don't just take my word for it look for yourself.
www.bruceleefoundation.com

Thats part of the problem, the evolution died along with bruce, so the true interpretation died along with him, the most evolved martial art system is without doubt mma, it uses everything and anything that works,

bruce lee could be considered a pioneer of mma, even though it came long after his demise...jkd should be mma if bruce's philosiphies where followed through on. and if people dont agree with that, i would suggest that they dont understand his philosiphies.

dlofnep

Martin25 wrote: »

I agree "use what works"
However Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is a recognised martial art.
Don't just take my word for it look for yourself.
www.bruceleefoundation.com

The mere fact that it's a martial art contradicts the ideology of JKD. It is not an art. I do not subscribe to it. It's exploiting Bruce Lee's name for a few quid.

Bruce Lee wrote:

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds.

I think Bruce himself knows just a tad bit more than you about what JKD is.

Martin25

All martial arts have a structure and Jeet Kune Do has a structure.
This is the root from where all the branches grow.

JKD has no rules and is not a sport and MMA is a sport (even though it is brutal and realistic) with rules.

I would refer you back to my post and ask you to give me a considered response.
Do you think that Functional JKD is the correct way to follow?

dlofnep

Martin25 wrote: »

All martial arts have a structure and Jeet Kune Do has a structure.

I'll just let Bruce debate directly with you about this.

Bruce Lee wrote:

I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds.

His words, not mine.

Do you think that Functional JKD is the correct way to follow?

That depends on what your understanding of JKD is and what mine is. I agree with the idea of not clinging onto styles, but mesh bits and bobs of everything together.

Martin25

JKD is not a style because style confines us and becomes a cage.
It has a training method and this has evolved , however many of the techniques are still as valid today as they ever were.
My JKD group is a not for profit club and I don't charge for lessons so don't make a few quid as you say.
All the best to you in your training.
I think that we may have to agree to disagree.
Martin

dlofnep

Martin25 wrote: »

JKD is not a style because style confines us and becomes a cage.

I'm glad we agree.

Martin25 wrote: »

My JKD group is a not for profit club and I don't charge for lessons so don't make a few quid as you say.

I never said you were. It wasn't a pop at you Martin. However, not everyone is as generous as you. There are alot of people out there selling JKD and making a profit from something that is just an ideology.

Bruce Lee wrote:

Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

Martin25

No problem thats fine,I am in agreement with some of your points.

JKD is not a style in the traditional sense but it has a training method or guide to get the basics,techniques,motions. This process can be taught and is like for example, a person learning the English language alphabet,words,sentences creative writing and so on.
The problem is that very few people know the basics of JKD and a lot of Instructors just don't know or have completely abandoned Bruce's teachings in favour of some chop suey martial arts which throws together anything and call it JKD. They then defend this by saying that Bruce has been surpassed by them! Or that JKD is a model T ford and they have a sports car. They forget that JKD is one of the youngest martial arts, about 35 years old, much younger than the arts that they may in fact be practicing such as boxing,Thai Boxing,Karate, BJJ,Judo
In our class once a person gets the basics then they are free to be creative and find out what works best for themselves. Everyone is different and has different strengths and weaknesses.
For example the late Larry Hartsell did 90% grappling and sub wrestling in his JKD.Larry was one of the first to enter the no holds barred fights in the 1970/1980s and he was a great warrior.

Then the individual is encouraged to discover what works for themselves,free to be creative ,research, develop.

" Man the living creature the creative individual is always more important than any established system"
Bruce Lee
Good luck in your training!

Martin25

My other response to earlier posts is that the letter from John Little inspired me to continue on with my work.

I have not been sidestepping questions so if asked a direct and honest question I will do my best to give an answer if I have one.
I don't have all the answers .

0littledragon0

bruce himself had over 2600 books in his collection and at least 268 on boxing alone (sifu Ted Wong told me) and on getting letters of praise my instructor got a letter from Robert Lee a few years back thanking him for continuing bruces art on as it was meant to be, stripping away whats useless and using whats useful, Spiral has a great way of doing things 2-3 moves in class i do that myself well done Spiral keep up the good work

Martin25

As requested
Here is an outline of a typical basic Tuesday class.
First hour
Warmup
Footwork
Straight lead punching in the air and on the pads
Straight blast training in the air and on the pads
Bridge punching with a training partner
Pak Sao
Jab cross to double leg take down.
Chi Sao

Second hour;
Conditioning Exercises
basic ground work
Sparring
stretch

Thursday Class
Stand up sparring and ground work, 2 hours

Saturday Class (non JKD)
Weapon training
Impact and edged

ginoginelli

Martin25 wrote: »

As requested
Here is an outline of a typical basic Tuesday class.
First hour
Warmup
Footwork
Straight lead punching in the air and on the pads
Straight blast training in the air and on the pads
Bridge punching with a training partner
Pak Sao
Jab cross to double leg take down.
Chi Sao

Second hour;
Conditioning Exercises
basic ground work
Sparring
stretch

Thursday Class
Stand up sparring and ground work, 2 hours

Saturday Class (non JKD)
Weapon training
Impact and edged

Looks like 2 fun classes!

Just a few quick questions for yourself Martin..

How effective is the straight blast punch in jkd? As it devoid of the full range of motion one would succeed if throwing a right hand cross in boxing, does the power significantly wane? My understanding is that it can be executed quite quickly without much set-up..Is this correct?

Cheers!

Martin25

The straight blast is usually a short range "machine gun" type punching sequence.There are a couple of variations which we use and all are thrown with bad intentions.

ginoginelli

Martin25 wrote: »

The straight blast is usually a short range "machine gun" type punching sequence.There are a couple of variations which we use and all are thrown with bad intentions.

Thanks for your reply, but i think i confused the straight blast with the jkd lead punch! In regards to the lead punch, Ive seen a few examples on youtube of it and I heard Geff Thompson has a similar punch. Im just curious as to how functional it is? Have you or your students ever used this technique in a real life situation? and if so, how effective was it?

Martin25

Hi
The straight blast has its roots firmly in the Wing Chun system.
The lead straight punch is from JKD.
It works well in self defence and it has been tried and tested.
Martin