Japan's housing slump was scary, and ours could be too

jetski

This chart records the traumatic property experience of Japan. A monumental boom in the late 1980s and early 1990s reversed dramatically and house prices fell by 76.4pc from the peak.
This happened, not in a corrupt, tin-pot dictatorship, dependent on commodities for its sole exports, but in the world’s most sophisticated economy, with the most dynamic financial sector and a history as the world’s pre-eminent innovator.
Could it happen here? Will Irish house prices fall back to levels seen in 2000/2001 or even to levels seen last century? Will our house prices drop by 70pc before they stabilise? These numbers need to be considered because there are plenty of reasons to be fearful.
The similarities between both Ireland and Japan are striking; the main difference is that the Japanese controlled their own interest rates and thus were able to cut them to soften the blow. As EU inflation topped 4pc this week, it looks likely that we will be facing higher not lower rates for the foreseeable future. Not good.
One similarity is the capacity for self-delusion and failure to face up to the magnitude of our crisis. It was the same in Japan 20 years ago. I remember the Japanese mania even reached Irish shores in the grim late 1980s.
When I was in college, a particularly ambitious set of business students who used to wear suits to lectures (a true sign of recession) began taking private Japanese lessons. If you didn’t have a grasp of Japanese, or at least a smattering, their view was you might as well quit now and not even bother turning up for final year interviews.
We sat there, petrified, as professor after professor told us about the threat of Japan to our careers (not that the class of 1988 appeared to have a particularly stellar future ahead of them in the first place).
Every airport waiting lounge was stuffed with hardback tomes heralding the rise and rise of Japan and no economics exam was complete without the question: “Explain the fundamental economic reasons behind Japanese world economic domination”.
Japan of the late 1980s was experiencing a huge asset-price boom and stocks were going through the roof, allowing Japanese companies to buy trophy assets abroad such as the Rockefeller Centre and MGM.
Bulging Japanese banks dwarfed their European and US counterparts and threatened to dominate the City and Wall Street. Most spectacular of all was the Tokyo property market. In 1990, the land upon which the imperial palace in Tokyo was built was valued at more than the entire real estate of Canada, the second largest country in the world.
When I read the silly valuations in the ‘Irish Times’ property section, particularly the “Take 5 at €400,000″ section, I am reminded of the Japanese Imperial Palace delusion. Clearly a two up, two down in Rialto is not worth the same as a seven-bedroomed house in the Dordogne. Now that prices are falling rapidly, the idea that pokey Irish houses are worth more than French chateaux will look increasingly daft.
The other problem for Ireland is the sheer extremity of the housing boom. Irish house prices have risen 380pc since 1996, compared with 260pc in the UK — the next frothiest market. House prices fell in Germany and of course Japan in the same period. While in Switzerland — Europe’s technically most sophisticated economy — house prices only rose by 5pc in the 12 years since 1996.
As a result of this binge, Ireland is the most indebted nation in Europe. Outstanding residential mortgage debt now amounts to 192pc of our total GNP! This is truly shocking and depressing when you consider that in Germany, outstanding mortgage debt only amounts to 3pc of GNP.
Even in the US — where many disingenuous Irish commentators are suggesting this crisis originated — outstanding mortgage debt only accounts for 44pc of GNP. We are way out of whack with the rest of the world and our dilemma is very much of our own making. Think about the chart again. Have a long look and consider that in the past 10 years residential loans per capita in Ireland increased by 552pc. This is miring us in an ocean of debt. We got into debt five times faster than the average profligate American and, extraordinarily, 50 times faster than the parsimonious Germans.
With our British neighbours, we managed to lose the run of ourselves completely. In the UK, where billions of Irish euros were spent in the past five years, there is carnage on the high street. According to the estate agents Allsops, the real weakness is being seen in the thousands of new docklands-style developments which mushroomed all over British cities.
Many of these investors were Irish and most apartments are now trading at a 30pc to 40pc discount to prices originally paid in 2005. The British have the comfort of a falling exchange rate determined in London, we on the other hand are stuck to the Germans.
This is why the personal debt comparisons with Germany are so instructive. The German has no property-related debt to speak of. This means that the average Gunter doesn’t really mind if European interest rates rise, as it will make no difference at all to his budget at the end of the month.
In contrast, the average Paddy, who has seen his personal property indebtedness rise by over 500pc since the late 1990s, will be roasted by a rise in rates.
So will Irish house prices follow the Japanese model and fall by 70pc from the peak? Maybe. Who knows? However, the similarities are too striking to be ignored.
It is clear the Japanese market didn’t freeze, as during the slump there were still distressed sellers and opportunistic buyers who thought they had bought at rock bottom, only to see prices fall again.
Overall, however, in the 13-year slump there was not one period of six months when any sustained rally was recorded.The lesson being, when things start falling, they drop like a stone.
Take a look at the chart again. Not a pretty sight.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/07/02/japans-housing-slump-was-scary-and-ours-could-be-too

mathie

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055327115

Double thread. Of your own thread!

ZYX

mathie wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055327115

Double thread. Of your own thread!

Not only that but to quote Faceman at that time
"The japan/ireland comparison has come up before and if memory served correct smmacarrick posted some details showing how neither markets are comparable like for like."

Time to stop all this Jetski. OK you can look up articles about housing mnarket. Please stop posting them unless relevant. This is your 10th posting in 10 days that quotes a newspaper article

Gareth37

Its true though I think, houses will come down to building cost value (which is 70K for a 3 bed semi) in a development.

You cannot export houses

Tigger

Gareth37 wrote: »

Its true though I think, houses will come down to building cost value (which is 70K for a 3 bed semi) in a development.

You cannot export houses

you cannot import houses

jetski

mathie wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055327115

Double thread. Of your own thread!

I was just making sure you are reading the stories....

jetski

ZYX wrote: »

Not only that but to quote Faceman at that time
"The japan/ireland comparison has come up before and if memory served correct smmacarrick posted some details showing how neither markets are comparable like for like."

Time to stop all this Jetski. OK you can look up articles about housing mnarket. Please stop posting them unless relevant. This is your 10th posting in 10 days that quotes a newspaper article

why dont you mind your own business you tourist

jdivision

Gareth37 wrote: »

which is 70K for a 3 bed semi in a development.

Where did you get that figure?

jetski

70k..... if the entire population emigrates

jhegarty

Gareth37 wrote: »

Its true though I think, houses will come down to building cost value (which is 70K for a 3 bed semi) in a development.

You cannot export houses

that's as funny as the people who though prices would never come down....

you can't build any house for 70k ... even with a free site .....

jetski

you stand corrected

the_syco

jetski wrote: »

you stand corrected

I severely doubt it.

johnnyskeleton

jhegarty wrote: »

that's as funny as the people who though prices would never come down....

you can't build any house for 70k ... even with a free site .....

This raises something that I've been thinking about a lot lately; how much does it actually cost to build houses these days?

I've heard varying estimates, from "roughly 1/3 of sale price" to "40k for a 500k apartment".

Anyone have any ideas? In particular, in a large development (say 400-600 apartments) how much does it cost the developer to make them, and what sort of profit are they looking at?

accensi0n

Who is most affected by the falling house prices? Why is it such a big problem?

Just looking at myself:

Early twenties.
Started full-time employment 10 months ago.
Rent is low so get to save over half my wage.

When I go to buy somewhere (3-5 years maybe?) prices will be lower so happy days.


Don't think the average family is affected...they've bought a house for the long-term so they can't be bothered about the price of their house going down. They still have a house and can still pay the mortgage.

So is it just people who took out huge loans to buys houses and were planning to sell them when the prices went up more that are affected?

SimpleSam06

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

This raises something that I've been thinking about a lot lately; how much does it actually cost to build houses these days?

You can self build a decent house these days for €50k. You might have to pay a bit more if you wanted others to build it for you though.

accensi0n wrote: »

they've bought a house for the long-term so they can't be bothered about the price of their house going down. They still have a house and can still pay the mortgage.

Ah see thats where you're missing it, decent family homes were exorbitantly expensive over the last eight years, so you can bet that most of the people who bought were a) specuvestors or b) FTBs looking for a step on the "ladder", a silly idea at best. Almost all of these people are under pressure to sell, depending on the time they bought, and that time stretches further back the further house prices fall.

ZYX

jetski wrote: »

why dont you mind your own business you tourist

It is a public forum so is as much my business as anyone elses. Why don't you stop the personal stuff and post some 10 year old report on property prices in Iraq.

jetski

if its a public forum ill post what i want.

if you dont want to read it then dont click on the link

or maybe is that too complicated for you.

am i mistaken or is english not your first language by any chance?

jmayo

jetski wrote: »

if its a public forum ill post what i want.

if you dont want to read it then dont click on the link

or maybe is that too complicated for you.

am i mistaken or is english not your first language by any chance?

Listen jetski a lot of people don't want to hear about how f***ed we may really be. Sure it is better to live in denial than face the truth your kids may be paying your mortgage.
Anyway I don't see anything new in your OP that a lot of us doubters haven't been syaing for a number of years.
If it happened in one of the world's biggest economies then it would surely happen and much worse to our piddly foreign investment dependent economy. So to me anyway your op was nothing new.

And will you please try and use the Shift key or Caps Lock

ZYX

jetski wrote: »

If it's a public forum, I'll post what i want.

If you don't want to read it then don't click on the link,

or maybe is that too complicated for you?

Am I mistaken, or is English not your first language by any chance?

Hmmm.Pot & kettle

jetski

better to live in denial i hear you say than face the truth your kids may be paying your mortgage? You have no one to blame but yourself for that....

"Anyway I don't see anything new in your OP that a lot of us doubters haven't been saying for a number of years"

If you’re so smart how did you end up with the possibility of your kids inheriting a debt? and besides i didn’t write it i only posted a link, and again if you don’t like it don’t read it, its not rocket science......

gixerfixer

A lot of people laughed at Mc Williams when he made his property crash predictions couple of years back, i wonder will those same people still be laughing if this prediction comes good?

astrofool

I don't think people disagree with your posts jetski but more the fact that:

a) They are usually very old articles
b) You post the same thing more than once
c) They are just a copy/paste without any of your own opinion

Also, you are not free to post anything you want here, boards has rules and is moderated according to those rules, public or not.

jetski

odd articles? what are you on about. i dont write them, im posting a link to get the section going its normally dead. i dont post my opinion... so what get a life.

"You post the same thing more than once"
NO i posed the same article twice and i only did that once.

If you dont like the articles dont read them...

SimpleSam06

In fairness he is just trying to keep people updated with news, breaking no charter rules, albeit with mixed results, and again, you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

A little more attention to dates and punctuation jetski and you'll have less complaints!

jetski

Dates maybe, but for anyone moaning about punctuation... grow up

I genuinly cant believe there are individuals moaning about someone posting news articles related to property on a property forum.

ZYX

jetski wrote: »

Dates maybe, but for anyone moaning about punctuation... grow up

You made a comment about English not being my first language. If you are throwing dirt around about others use of English then you cannot blame people if they point out your poor English literacy skills. People in glass houses and all that.

jetski wrote: »

I genuinly cant believe there are individuals moaning about someone posting news articles related to property on a property forum.

Jetski, the problem is , they often are not news (by the time you post them)articles, and, they often are not related to Irish property.

SimpleSam06

jetski wrote: »

Dates maybe, but for anyone moaning about punctuation... grow up

Its not like running through it and sticking in a few line breaks is going to break your wrist, now is it?

the GALL

50k for a house these days
are you nuts even a 2006 prices you wouldn't get it at that and that's doing everything from sweepig the floors to foundations to walls to 1st/2nd carpentry to roofing to landscaping
but then again if you can get me a house built for 50k materials send a pm and we can do buisness ill still give you a 10k dropsie for yerself

ronbyrne2005

Have to agree with posts on jetski. I read propertypin most days and jetski posts same articles sometimes weeks later, but maybe people reading this forum don't keep up to date and these articles are news to them, but anyone considering buying should really be doing their research and thepropertypin really is best resource where every article is analysed and truth sought.

SimpleSam06

the GALL wrote: »

50k for a house these days
are you nuts even a 2006 prices you wouldn't get it at that and that's doing everything from sweepig the floors to foundations to walls to 1st/2nd carpentry to roofing to landscaping
but then again if you can get me a house built for 50k materials send a pm and we can do buisness ill still give you a 10k dropsie for yerself

If a man can build a Tudor castle for £50,000, its not that hard to build a more regular abode for less. This stuff really isnt that hard, I know lots of people who have done self builds, although navigating such complex tasks as sweeping the floors might present a bit of a technical challenge only a qualified Irish builder would be able to slack off during, I admit.

Firetrap

accensi0n wrote: »

Who is most affected by the falling house prices? Why is it such a big problem?

Just looking at myself:

Early twenties.
Started full-time employment 10 months ago.
Rent is low so get to save over half my wage.

When I go to buy somewhere (3-5 years maybe?) prices will be lower so happy days.


Don't think the average family is affected...they've bought a house for the long-term so they can't be bothered about the price of their house going down. They still have a house and can still pay the mortgage.

So is it just people who took out huge loans to buys houses and were planning to sell them when the prices went up more that are affected?

The thing that the dreaded vested interests always say is that if you're not planning to sell your house and that you can afford to pay the mortgage, that it's happy days. I disagree. For most people, paying the mortgage is a big deal. Even €100 or €200 extra in their pockets each month would be more than welcome.

The_Conductor

accensi0n wrote: »

So is it just people who took out huge loans to buys houses and were planning to sell them when the prices went up more that are affected?

Depends on what you mean. Affected by a more than doubling in mortgage repayments, or affected by negative equity?

People got very used to rock bottom interest rates, and as a result, not only are we mortgaged to the hilts (equity release mortgages were the flavour of the day as late as Q4 06), but we also have the highest level of credit card debt and personal loans per capita- in the whole entire world. The average Irish person has more than 4 times the personal debt of the average US citizen, and its the state of the US financial markets that have cast global financial systems into turmoil. If their situation was anything like the Irish situation- 1929 would be but an interesting hiccup in financial history......

People need a roof over the heads- negative equity is only an issue if they are not replacing the property they are purchasing with another property (or trading up (or indeed down) as estate agents like to put it). Sure- you are less wealthy on paper, but paper doesn´t keep you warm and dry at night- the roof over your head does (regardless of whether you own it or not). Sure- possibly as many as 250,000 may end up in negative equity situations- as long as they can continue to service the loans, its irrelevant. Even if they fail to service the loans, with the state of Irish bankruptcy laws, its still irrelevant, as the financial institutions are legally entitled to their pound of flesh, come what may. (Note: Irish bankruptcy laws are seriously antiquadated, and need to be urgently addressed- they have the interests of vested concerns at heart, and not the interests of the person they are allegedly protecting).

Interest rates are a much worse problem. With mortgage rates now pretty much universally above 6%, overdraft rates at 12%, term loans at perhaps 8-9%, and credit card rates averaging almost 24%- even people who are not saddled with the additional worry of negative equity really are struggling. We were encouraged by the government, the media and vested interests to splurge like there is no tomorrow- and by God we did. Now unfortunately comes payback- when the day of reckoning is upon us. Simply refinancing or using equity release products to resecuritise silly levels of personal debt are no longer avenues open to any of us. The average person, even those considered relatively well off, are hurting, and hurting badly.

The housing slump is as much sympthomatic of people´s feeling of economic well being, as it is a recognition of the excesses of the last few years. When people are worried about their finances, and finding the going difficult, they cut back. When sufficient numbers of people cut back- the feedback effect means insufficient activity occurs to justify keeping additional staff on (even in prestigious restraunts, well considered retail outlets and industries and employments that might once have been considered recession proof). You get an endless cycle.

What will happen if the government bring out a stimulus package of limited duration to try to clear the current overhang in the housing market? Personally I think that there are a lot more sellers hanging on there in the vain hope of a recovery, than there are buyers on the fence awaiting a government handout. If a 10% "bonus" (or whatever they would like to call it) is made available for First Time Buyers who close by a certain date- all of a sudden you are going to have a lot of sellers (other than developers) trying to chase these fortunate First Time Buyers, further depressing property prices, and furthering the expectation of those sitting on the fence, that if they hold out just another bit longer that they will get a "bargain".......

The government has totally ruined the economy with its administrations to the construction sector- as early as 2000 this was reiterated in the IMF report on the Irish property sector- which viewed Irish property as overpriced at that stage (but it subsequently went on to triple in price). Applying the logic the IMF used to value Irish property at in 2000- a total fall of 60-70% from peak Q3 2006 figures could possibly be arrived at. Would this be catastrophic? It would be catastrophic for the government and its finances- and would make a very harsh readjustment for the NDP and other longterm spending plans. It should not however have any meaningful detrimental effect on the average person walking down the street, other than to deepen the depression they find themselves in. After all- how many people walking down the street remember the days in the early 1980s when interest rates were habitually over 20%? Very very few........

jmayo

jetski wrote: »

better to live in denial i hear you say than face the truth your kids may be paying your mortgage? You have no one to blame but yourself for that....

"Anyway I don't see anything new in your OP that a lot of us doubters haven't been saying for a number of years"

If you’re so smart how did you end up with the possibility of your kids inheriting a debt? and besides i didn’t write it i only posted a link, and again if you don’t like it don’t read it, its not rocket science......

Did you read my post ?
Hello Sarcasm :rolleyes:

I said somepeople don't want to hear the truth ... yada yada
Did I say my kids would be paying MY mortgage ?

I did say that some people, including myself, have been syaing that we were in a dangerous bubble.

Is English language your first language because you seem to miss certain subtelties in a post ?:rolleyes:

10goto20

Nobody gains from a housing crash. Joe Bloggs may have been waiting for prices to drop even further but in the meantime he's lost his job.

10goto20

10goto20 wrote: »

Nobody gains from a housing crash. Joe Bloggs may have been waiting for prices to drop even further but in the meantime he's lost his job.

Thats partially correct. Not everybody loses their job. Also a crash is better than a bubble for the long term.

10goto20

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats partially correct. Not everybody loses their job. Also a crash is better than a bubble for the long term.

Overall as a nation the property crash is bad. There are some who will see positives in it, first time buyers waiting to pounce. But they're being a bit naive when you consider the grander scheme of things. A bubble is better because the overall majority gain, with the few losing. We now have the flip side, the overall majority losing and the few gaining. But even the few that are gaining are not really because they're part of an economy which is suffering as a whole.

jmayo

10goto20 wrote: »

Overall as a nation the property crash is bad. There are some who will see positives in it, first time buyers waiting to pounce. But they're being a bit naive when you consider the grander scheme of things. A bubble is better because the overall majority gain, with the few losing. We now have the flip side, the overall majority losing and the few gaining. But even the few that are gaining are not really because they're part of an economy which is suffering as a whole.

Yes the property crash will be bad, because it can take out once viable and thriving businesses as well as the ones that were just based around the bubble.

But you are the one being naive if you think that a bubble is somehow good, because it may benefit more people in the short term.
Remember wherever you have a bubble, then you will probably have a bust, and the bust is usually worse than the bubbles gains, so long term it is not good for the majority.

gurramok

10goto20 wrote: »

Overall as a nation the property crash is bad. There are some who will see positives in it, first time buyers waiting to pounce. But they're being a bit naive when you consider the grander scheme of things. A bubble is better because the overall majority gain, with the few losing. We now have the flip side, the overall majority losing and the few gaining. But even the few that are gaining are not really because they're part of an economy which is suffering as a whole.

Overall majority gains in a bubble and loses in a crash, who are they??

bugler

What a warped view of what has happened this country over the past few years.

ZYX

gurramok wrote: »

Overall majority gains in a bubble and loses in a crash, who are they??

Well one example is, the people who did not buy a house (ie the majority) benefited from billions of euro in tax take, which helped increase spending in all areas by government. Now that this billions is not available the majority will have to pay by a combination of higher taxes and less services

jetski

What a warped view of what has happened this country over the past few years.

+1

jetski

ZYX - when i asked you was english not your first language it was an honest question which i now know the answer. im not trying to get your back up and get you to reply because frankly you do my head in.

10goto20

jmayo wrote: »

Yes the property crash will be bad, because it can take out once viable and thriving businesses as well as the ones that were just based around the bubble.

But you are the one being naive if you think that a bubble is somehow good, because it may benefit more people in the short term.
Remember wherever you have a bubble, then you will probably have a bust, and the bust is usually worse than the bubbles gains, so long term it is not good for the majority.

Millions of people living in prosperity is not good...mmmm ok. You're saying the reason the boom is bad is because it crashed. Its nonsensical. Its the crash that is bad, nothing else.

The_Conductor

10goto20 wrote: »

Its the crash that is bad, nothing else.

Not necessarily.
What about all the people who piled into the property market- just to "get on the property ladder" with the intention of trading up to property which actually suited their needs when the opportunity arose. Even while their properties increased in value- the lack of construction of more reasonable standard and sized units meant they were forever indefinetely beyond their reach- particularly as people's salaries and their increases in salaries, bore no semblence to cost of living increases, increases in property values, or indeed underlying inflation rates.

The only thing which made people feel better off was the irrational euphoria associated with the paper gains in asset prices- which the banks were only too happy to convert in ready liquidity fueling a self perpetuating consumer splurge..........

Even if the housing slump did not occur- the day was always going to come when we would have had to sit down and look at our finances and start repaying the silly amounts of debt we got ourselves into. It wasn't a case of "if", rather a case of "when".

Its delusional to think that the crash and the crash alone is the sole "bad" aspect of our financial situation. There were several factors feeding into the equation- the housing slump was simply a catalyst for bringing all the other irrational factors into play simultaneously.

bugler

Well it's disheartening to see that many still can't grasp that rocketing house prices don't contribute anything positive to a society. I can borrow more money?! Great. Wow I'm so prosperous with all this cash that isn't mine, and the debt, which is mine.

Unless you're talking about some sort of mental well being that comes from sitting smugly in your 1,000 sq foot palace 'worth' 600k.

This is basically why Ireland got itself into the shape it is. A sizeable portion of the populace actually view a high cost of putting a roof over your head as a good thing. How messed up is that?

10goto20

smccarrick wrote: »

Not necessarily.
What about all the people who piled into the property market- just to "get on the property ladder" with the intention of trading up to property which actually suited their needs when the opportunity arose. Even while their properties increased in value- the lack of construction of more reasonable standard and sized units meant they were forever indefinetely beyond their reach- particularly as people's salaries and their increases in salaries, bore no semblence to cost of living increases, increases in property values, or indeed underlying inflation rates.

The only thing which made people feel better off was the irrational euphoria associated with the paper gains in asset prices- which the banks were only too happy to convert in ready liquidity fueling a self perpetuating consumer splurge..........

Even if the housing slump did not occur- the day was always going to come when we would have had to sit down and look at our finances and start repaying the silly amounts of debt we got ourselves into. It wasn't a case of "if", rather a case of "when".

Its delusional to think that the crash and the crash alone is the sole "bad" aspect of our financial situation. There were several factors feeding into the equation- the housing slump was simply a catalyst for bringing all the other irrational factors into play simultaneously.

Yes you're rich on paper up until the point where you cash in by downgrading or inheriting or by selling investments or whatever means. Until then its just paper, well now we don't even have it on paper so I'm not seeing the good in that. The crash in the construction sector has spread throughout the economy, followed by the credit crunch....I'm still not seeing any good in it. Sorry but I'm not getting it. A booming economy is good. A crash in a booming economy is bad, very bad when it comes as Michael O Leary said in a perfect storm of bad incidents. Its good for people who are waiting to buy a house, provided they haven't been affected by the spread of doom. And while we're talking long term that means every single person in the country will be affected in some negative way.

Sorry but I don't see the rosey side of all this. Had a look at your pensions performance lately?

ZYX

bugler wrote: »

Unless you're talking about some sort of mental well being that comes from sitting smugly in your 1,000 sq foot palace 'worth' 600k.

This is basically why Ireland got itself into the shape it is. A sizeable portion of the populace actually view a high cost of putting a roof over your head as a good thing. How messed up is that?

You are missing the point I made. The people who bought the houses are not the ones better off. Anyone who bought in last 5 years is much worse off. The majority of people did not buy a house in last 5 years and they are the ones who benefited. They are also the ones who are now to loose as they will have to pay more tax and they will see services reduced.

ZYX

jetski wrote: »

ZYX - when i asked you was english not your first language it was an honest question which i now know the answer. im not trying to get your back up and get you to reply because frankly you do my head in.

English is not my first language, but I still know that "i" should be spelt I. When a word starts a sentence that word should start with a capital letter. also "when i asked you was english not your first language" is poor grammer. What is your first language?

The_Conductor

ZYX wrote: »

English is not my first language, but I still know that "i" should be spelt I. When a word starts a sentence that word should start with a capital letter. also "when i asked you was english not your first language" is poor grammer. What is your first language?

Guys- stop right there. Its not relevant to the thread- and against the forum charter, to make comments which might be construed as attacking or insulting another poster. If you want to continue take it to PM or elsewhere.

S.

bugler

You are missing the point I made.

TBH, nothing I said was in response to your posts, more 10goto20.

Excessively boomy house prices don't help an economy, not via tax nor any other method. That's ignoring the fact that all this money we supposedly earned seems to have miraculously failed to have improved our public services. The boom was always going to end in tears, as it was as unsustainable as any pyramid scheme. Once the music stopped we were all in for a fall. Of course this didn't stop the gluttony.

They are also the ones who are now to loose as they will have to pay more tax and they will see services reduced.

Yes, I agree. Responsible people who didn't partake will be forced to carry the can for those who had less sense. But I'm not sure I'll notice any reduction in services, as they seem uniformly bad as it is.

jetski

S - thats fine by me as you see from the final sentence in my last post.