Strength gains without bulk

newby.204

in light of the bulk or cut thread, and please try not to flame the bejaysus outta me, but going on advice round here coupled withe the 5x5 prog to get stronger you must eat alot, i wish to get stronger much stronger, however i dont wnat to bulk up, i realise you gain muscle when lifting however i dont wanna hit the 100kg mark(i realise thats no easy feet) nor do i wnat to get bulkier i just wish to get stronger.

so i guess my question is is it possible to get stronger i.e. heavier lifts without bulking up too much??

conceited

Lift very heavy and do less reps.And mix in some running to balance it out.

brendansmith

conceited wrote: »

Lift very heavy and do less reps.And mix in some running to balance it out.

Not doubting you but I thought that was how you do bulk up. Im no expert infact new to this whole weight lifting business.

I myself am looking to bulk up and so id like to get this straight. By less reps do you mean 8 as oppose to 12 or 3 as oppose to 8 or what?
Also i read somewhere else on boards that someone was saying that more reps with a lower weight does nothing for bulking up it only produces lactic acid which makes you feel like progress is being made when it really isnt (and if i remember correctly, the majority agreed).

Roper

3-5 reps, heavy weights.

That being said, increasing your body weight is about how much you eat, not how much you lift. I don't know who you've been talking to but staying under 100kgs should be easy, not hard if you're training and eating right. It's gaining the weight that should be hard!

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

3-5 reps, heavy weights.

That being said, increasing your body weight is about how much you eat, not how much you lift. I don't know who you've been talking to but staying under 100kgs should be easy, not hard if you're training and eating right. It's gaining the weight that should be hard!

+1

If you're average height and under abotu 15% bodyfat it should be quite hard to break 100kg!!

As for the training... depends on your current level right now.

mushykeogh

Roper wrote: »

3-5 reps, heavy weights.QUOTE]

Bang on, and watch the rest intervals between sets, generally 2.5 to 3 mins rest between sets at the above rep range will rule out any hypertophy effect. Atp cp is near enough fully regenerated for each set.

Roper

mushykeogh wrote: »

Bang on, and watch the rest intervals between sets, generally 2.5 to 3 mins rest between sets at the above rep range will rule out any hypertophy effect. Atp cp is near enough fully regenerated for each set.

Aye, very hard to lift big for 3 sets if you don't rest right. OP I think you're set.

WolfForager

brendansmith wrote: »

Not doubting you but I thought that was how you do bulk up. Im no expert infact new to this whole weight lifting business.

I myself am looking to bulk up and so id like to get this straight. By less reps do you mean 8 as oppose to 12 or 3 as oppose to 8 or what?
Also i read somewhere else on boards that someone was saying that more reps with a lower weight does nothing for bulking up it only produces lactic acid which makes you feel like progress is being made when it really isnt (and if i remember correctly, the majority agreed).

Do 5 sets of 3 reps with heavy weights, enough so that you can barely lift the last rep of the 5th set or not be able to lift it at all.

newby.204

Just a quick question for g'em/hanley etc... how badly would training i.e. thai boxing affect the 5x5 program as far as gains go on the rest day i.e.

mon 5x5
tue thai
wed 5x5
thur thai
fri 5x5
sat thai
sun rest

it just occured to me that training on the set rest day might hinder gains??

dave80

newby.204 wrote: »

Just a quick question for g'em/hanley etc... how badly would training i.e. thai boxing affect the 5x5 program as far as gains go on the rest day i.e.

mon 5x5
tue thai
wed 5x5
thur thai
fri 5x5
sat thai
sun rest

it just occured to me that training on the set rest day might hinder gains??

iam working with a similar program, depends wat 5x5 program your doing and to a certain extent wat kind of job you have (i.e. manual labour etc)?

Hanley

newby.204 wrote: »

Just a quick question for g'em/hanley etc... how badly would training i.e. thai boxing affect the 5x5 program as far as gains go on the rest day i.e.

mon 5x5
tue thai
wed 5x5
thur thai
fri 5x5
sat thai
sun rest

it just occured to me that training on the set rest day might hinder gains??

Check out Naos's log. I've been helping him with his training and he's similar enough to you with workload. Strarting Strength 3x a week, some MA and some swimming. He seems to be managing ok.

The most important thing to do is make sure you're eating enough, and listen to your body.

gabgab

There is a cahp that trains with Colm in Spartan mma and he is about 75 kg and did a 1rm deadlift of 190kg

So I reckon on your original question yeh it is very doable, I myself got a good bit stronger without any weight gain. On a scales I actually lost weight so yeh go for it,

dave80

gabgab wrote: »

75 kg and did a 1rm deadlift of 190kg
So I reckon on your original question yeh it is very doable

no indication that he gained strength without gaining weight? did he increase his PB?

Hanley

dave80 wrote: »

no indication that he gained strength without gaining weight? did he increase his PB?

My training partner's competed at 75kg since the start of 2007. In that time his deadlift's gone from about 220kg to 240kg (with a very near miss at 250, a stronger grip woulda given it to him. He'll pull 250-260 at this years world champs, no doubt). His bench is up a considerable amount too, 15-20kg. His squat has seen a small increase. All the time between 73 and 75kg.

When I was 90kg, my deadlift went from 192.5kg in July '06 to 210kg in November '06. My weight was actually lower when I pulled 210kg.

You can certainly increase strength without gaining weight.

gabgab

dave80 wrote: »

no indication that he gained strength without gaining weight? did he increase his PB?

I dont actually know if he did,

I myself definitely did though. I got stronger and lighter, to be fair the OP said he didnt want to gain bulk. No disrespect to anyone but the lad looks strong but he was not waht you would describe as "bulky"

From my own personal experience, I got stronger, with a log of workouts and numbers and gained very little bulk or weight.

dave80

Hanley wrote: »

My training partner's competed at 75kg since the start of 2007. In that time his deadlift's gone from about 220kg to 240kg (with a very near miss at 250, a stronger grip woulda given it to him. He'll pull 250-260 at this years world champs, no doubt). His bench is up a considerable amount too, 15-20kg. His squat has seen a small increase. All the time between 73 and 75kg.

When I was 90kg, my deadlift went from 192.5kg in July '06 to 210kg in November '06. My weight was actually lower when I pulled 210kg.

You can certainly increase strength without gaining weight.

Fairpay, but i was referring to gabgab example of a 75kger lifting 190kg deadlift but no mention of him getting stronger i.e. (lifting 170kg then lifting the 190kg at the same bodyweight)

newby.204 do you need to increase strength and keep the weight for a particular sport?

gabgab

Had a look back there and I went from a bar squat of 20kg, to 70kg at 3 sets of 5, with the only gain in weight or bulk being down to lazier attitude to diet and consuming alot more milk

I had been at 60kg squat while losing weight and training for triathlons, so its definitely doable,

newby.204

dave80 wrote: »

Fairpay, but i was referring to gabgab example of a 75kger lifting 190kg deadlift but no mention of him getting stronger i.e. (lifting 170kg then lifting the 190kg at the same bodyweight)

newby.204 do you need to increase strength and keep the weight for a particular sport?

yea i am currently 80kg, and i would like to keep at this weight as i hope to start fighting in thai boxing maybe the middle of next year, however i would like to considerably improve my strength too.

Hanley

dave80 wrote: »

Fairpay, but i was referring to gabgab example of a 75kger lifting 190kg deadlift but no mention of him getting stronger i.e. (lifting 170kg then lifting the 190kg at the same bodyweight)

newby.204 do you need to increase strength and keep the weight for a particular sport?

Aye, I know. I was just giving an example of someone who is 75kg who has gained a lot of strength and no real weight (tho their body composition has definitely changed).

dave80

newby.204 wrote: »

yea i am currently 80kg, and i would like to keep at this weight as i hope to start fighting in thai boxing maybe the middle of next year, however i would like to considerably improve my strength too.

its very doable espically if you havent done that much weight training before even if you have it shouldnt be a problem youll prob cut to around 73kg for a fight, so staying around the 80kg mark will be a good training weight

newby.204

thats what i had hoped

phene

Check out http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1474118 for ideas on programmes. You'll want 'Strategy #1: Heavy Lifting, High Frequency, Low Volume' if you're goal is strength.

Mikel

Hanley wrote: »

My training partner's competed at 75kg since the start of 2007. In that time his deadlift's gone from about 220kg to 240kg (with a very near miss at 250, a stronger grip woulda given it to him. He'll pull 250-260 at this years world champs, no doubt).

250 Kg at 75? Jebus!
Ignorant question... is that in the middle of the pack at world level or is that a serious contender in a comp?
Thats an awfully big number, what would the wr be?

kevpants

Mikel wrote: »

250 Kg at 75? Jebus!
Ignorant question... is that in the middle of the pack at world level or is that a serious contender in a comp?
Thats an awfully big number, what would the wr be?

At that weight the world record is 360kg for the deadlift believe it or not, nearly 800lbs.

tribulus

The guy in question is still a junior though, unless that's the junior record kevpants?

In which case, lol.

Lockstep

I'm doing the same thing: strength not bulk, and pullups were reccomended to me.

Hanley

Mikel wrote: »

250 Kg at 75? Jebus!
Ignorant question... is that in the middle of the pack at world level or is that a serious contender in a comp?
Thats an awfully big number, what would the wr be?

Well he hasn't pulled it yet, but he did get it to within about 2 inches before his grip gave way. I've no doubt he'll get it next time.

335kg is the current IPF 75kg junior WR, set 36 years ago. I'm guessing the guy that did it just had perfect deadlift proportions (short legs and torso, long ass arms).

At this years IPF junior world champs the highest deadlifts were; 290, 287.5, 270, 267.5 and 240 so his pulling strength is DEFINITELY world class. Tbh, I think he's a bit too tall for the 75's. At 82.5 his squat and bench leverages would be incredible.

brianthebard

Switch his protein powder with mass gain Hanley!

Roper

Do you just want to get stronger for the sake of it, or do you want to get stronger for Thaiboxing? The two have very different methods.

newby.204

well roper both i guess!

Mikel

kevpants wrote: »

At that weight the world record is 360kg for the deadlift believe it or not, nearly 800lbs.

LOL. That's insane!
God I feel puny

kevpants

Mikel wrote: »

LOL. That's insane!
God I feel puny

These records are superhuman. Guess what the 100kg weight class (my weight) record for the squat is? 500kg!! That's quintuple bodyweight. Sam Byrd.

Hanley

Don't forget that squat was with multi ply gear which is probably good for 150kg extra, AND the squat wasn't as deep as you'd expect.

The IPF one is 423kg set by the greatest lifter ever, Ed Coan.

Roper

newby.204 wrote: »

well roper both i guess!

Good news then cos it's easy to do both! I'd follow a good 6-8 week basic strength programme and from there then start including power exercises. Keep up your cardio during any strength phase and you won't add weight.

To be honest though if you knew 6-8 weeks out for a fight that you had one coming up there'd be no problem in having a basic strength trainng programme up to that point, it'd just be much more beneficial to have included the power exercises early on. I'm not explaining myself very well here but it's easier in person!

Who do you do the Thai with?

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

To be honest though if you knew 6-8 weeks out for a fight that you had one coming up there'd be no problem in having a basic strength trainng programme up to that point, it'd just be much more beneficial to have included the power exercises early on. I'm not explaining myself very well here but it's easier in person!

Spend the "off season" (ie time between fights) getting strong.

Then spend the 6-8 weeks before a fight focusing on power exercises?

Roper

Hanley wrote: »

Spend the "off season" (ie time between fights) getting strong.

Then spend the 6-8 weeks before a fight focusing on power exercises?

Oh how I wish it were that simple. With fighting, especially at novice level, there is so much to learn and focus on that it's quite difficult to slice up your time into anything. Training periods before events are complex too, and should involve a lot of cardio, then there's tactics (game plan), skills, padwork, sparring. For thai you run a lot, for MMA you run less but do more HIIT. So basically it's hard when a guy also has a 9-5 job to fit in all of that without him either burning out or getting injured from being worn out. Given limitless time a power session in the am with sparring at night would be great, but most people can't do that on account of having jobs/college to get to. The best you can hope for is lunchtime cardio. In other words, if time is a factor (and it nearly always is) then it's better spent on the sport itself.

It also depends on the fighter. You can (believe it or not) be too strong, or more appropriately, do too much incorrect training. But that applies to anything I suppose. What i really mean is that good coaches look at who they have and decide what they need the most, rather than writing up a 6 week programme and sticking it up for everyone.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

Oh how I wish it were that simple. With fighting, especially at novice level, there is so much to learn and focus on that it's quite difficult to slice up your time into anything. Training periods before events are complex too, and should involve a lot of cardio, then there's tactics (game plan), skills, padwork, sparring. For thai you run a lot, for MMA you run less but do more HIIT. So basically it's hard when a guy also has a 9-5 job to fit in all of that without him either burning out or getting injured from being worn out. Given limitless time a power session in the am with sparring at night would be great, but most people can't do that on account of having jobs/college to get to. The best you can hope for is lunchtime cardio. In other words, if time is a factor (and it nearly always is) then it's better spent on the sport itself.

It also depends on the fighter. You can (believe it or not) be too strong, or more appropriately, do too much incorrect training. But that applies to anything I suppose. What i really mean is that good coaches look at who they have and decide what they need the most, rather than writing up a 6 week programme and sticking it up for everyone.

Yeah that all makes a lot of sense. With all sports there seems to be a training hierarchy you neeed to follow. No point being the strongest out there if you can throw a punch, swing a kick or manage a take down. And no point being able to do all those things if you can't last for more than 30 seconds cos your cardio is so bad!!!