Selling Electricity Back to the Grid

redeight

Hi.
Anyone know anything about selling excess electricity generated from a wind turbine or such like back to ESB ?

Gekko

Afaik it's not possible here yet and probably won't be for some time to come

maniac101

redeight wrote: »

Hi.
Anyone know anything about selling excess electricity generated from a wind turbine or such like back to ESB ?

Last year, regulations were changed to allow micro generators to sell electricity back to the grid. The official line is that there's a number of technical and economic issues to be tackled before selling to the grid becomes a reality (put another way: the ESB and others are far from enthusuastic). For that reason, there'll be a "field trial" of 50 installations to iron out these issues. The field trial will be administered and grant-aided by SEI and is due to start this year. It would be best to contact them to find out what's the status of that programme. If you're not one of the 50, then I would imagine that selling back to the grid is still at least a couple of years away.

probe

Yet another example of the ESB using every trick in the book to delay green energy initiatives, no matter how small!

Net metering and the interfaces required between the grid and the customer are well proven technologies, in use for many years in many countries (eg Germany and USA).

Its just like eircom and broadband - eircom dragged their feet to keep people using dial up for as long as possible - because dial-up is more profitable for them.

Irish politicians are easily hoodwinked by vested interests, particularly if they come from a state owned background :-(

.probe

derry

probe wrote: »

Yet another example of the ESB using every trick in the book to delay green energy initiatives, no matter how small!

Net metering and the interfaces required between the grid and the customer are well proven technologies, in use for many years in many countries (eg Germany and USA).

Its just like eircom and broadband - eircom dragged their feet to keep people using dial up for as long as possible - because dial-up is more profitable for them.

Irish politicians are easily hoodwinked by vested interests, particularly if they come from a state owned background :-(

.probe

Whats with the being so nice to the Irish politicians

They have a bigger agenda ensuring that they get Ireland to buy a nuclear power station and get thier big fat brown envelopes from that probably French type as that crowd swim knee deep in brown envelopes

The builders want it lots of CO2 rich concrete in it

FF is the political wing of the builders

ESB want nuke big buttons to play with

Small windmills don't make profitable brown envelopes so they don't want it

Also small windmills if they could prove no need to have a nuclear power station then they would fight that toooooth and nail

Call the hyena's thier real names hyena's and not a cute puppy and then you see where the real story is


some threads that help explain the plot

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055364915

derry

oscarBravo

derry, there's a dedicated Conspiracy Theories board - keep them off here, please.

mumhaabu

I could have sworn I was reading IndyMedia there for a second! Selling Electricity back to the grid is unfeasible and is economically un-viable. It will make absolute no difference to anything and what we need are solutions like more Peat production, Coal from Roscommon, Clean Coal imported and Nuclear yes Nuclear.

Yes Nuclear it is a perfectly viable solution and just locate it somewhere in Cork, the county is big anyway and perfectly suited. Like it or lumb it we will soon enough be buying Nuclear leccy from the UK via the interconnecter and I'd rather have this under Irish control and let the ESB make the money rather than BNFL.

redeight

mumhaabu wrote: »

Selling Electricity back to the grid is unfeasible and is economically un-viable. It will make absolute no difference to anything and what we need are solutions like more Peat production, Coal from Roscommon, Clean Coal imported and Nuclear yes Nuclear. .

From the point of view of someone who has a way to generate small amounts of electricity, be it wind powered , hydro or whatever , selling electircity to the grid is an economicaly viable alternative to battery banks.
It is also entirely feasable.

"In Germany more than 300,000 solar systems have been installed in three years and micro-generation provides nearly 12% of all the country's electricity. Householders can earn 8% to 10% returns on investing in their own home systems and in some cases pay their mortgages with the income earned." (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/dec/06/energy.renewableenergy)

Nuclear power is a red herring. It takes up to 30 years to commision a nuclear power plant, and uranium is a finite resorce (just like petrol) which must also be imported.
As for coal and peat...? Do I realy need to say anything ?

probe

redeight wrote: »

From the point of view of someone who has a way to generate small amounts of electricity, be it wind powered , hydro or whatever , selling electircity to the grid is an economicaly viable alternative to battery banks.
It is also entirely feasable.

"In Germany more than 300,000 solar systems have been installed in three years and micro-generation provides nearly 12% of all the country's electricity. Householders can earn 8% to 10% returns on investing in their own home systems and in some cases pay their mortgages with the income earned." (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/dec/06/energy.renewableenergy)

Nuclear power is a red herring. It takes up to 30 years to commision a nuclear power plant, and uranium is a finite resorce (just like petrol) which must also be imported.
As for coal and peat...? Do I realy need to say anything ?

The ability for householders, farmers etc to sell surplus energy generated back to the grid at economic prices is an essential component in terms of providing a stable green energy supply to the country. At present, most of the wind mills in Ireland are clustered in a few areas with high wind potential. If they were spread all over the island and offshore, the total output would be more consistent, and there would be less need to think in terms of "storage".

If you had hundreds of thousands of small producers, selling surplus energy from a variety of sources ranging from farm waste, to micro-hydro, small wind, as well as allowing people with electric cars to engage in two-way trade of electricity, the green energy system would be far more reliable nationally. More energy would be produced and consumed locally reducing transmission losses. The net consumption from conventional gas and coal production would be reduced over time as more people would be generating more power for themselves - thus further reducing CO2 and other pollution emissions. Of course the ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia (all one happy household from the same stable) wouldn't like that! And they seem to be in total control of the "master plan" (which seems to be to do as little as they can get away with to keep the status quo in place).

.probe

derry

probe wrote: »

The ability for householders, farmers etc to sell surplus energy generated back to the grid at economic prices is an essential component in terms of providing a stable green energy supply to the country. At present, most of the wind mills in Ireland are clustered in a few areas with high wind potential. If they were spread all over the island and offshore, the total output would be more consistent, and there would be less need to think in terms of "storage".

If you had hundreds of thousands of small producers, selling surplus energy from a variety of sources ranging from farm waste, to micro-hydro, small wind, as well as allowing people with electric cars to engage in two-way trade of electricity, the green energy system would be far more reliable nationally. More energy would be produced and consumed locally reducing transmission losses. The net consumption from conventional gas and coal production would be reduced over time as more people would be generating more power for themselves - thus further reducing CO2 and other pollution emissions. Of course the ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia (all one happy household from the same stable) wouldn't like that! And they seem to be in total control of the "master plan" (which seems to be to do as little as they can get away with to keep the status quo in place).

.probe

In your dreams
Wake up

The Nuke power station brigade have gobs of money
More money than the entire Irish economy and they know where to put brown envelopes

The Nuke station brigade builders will buy up all the proffesors in universities who will all get on telly and whaill like the bansheess
"whoa is Ireland wind power will never work we need nuclear power "

The builders will go on telly whoa is Ireland we need rich fat cat Nuke station building rather than two bit wind farmers projects

The Government will employ pro Nuke power ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia chiefs and employ only pro Nuke power advisors

Then with constant brain washing from the media about how good NUKE power is they will gradually change a lot of the less clued up public over with sweet talking its good for you and it make your stick glow in the dark

The bit they wont tell you about the nuclear power station is we will be so in dept to build it that when there is a energy crunch the BNFL or French who will really own it and the electricity will sell it to the Highest bidder and that might not be Ireland

Just like the Shell gas project the gas get sold to highest bidder and therefore the Irish gas can exit Ireland if we in Ireland might not be the highest bidder

So we will owe all the money to make the Nuke station and not be able to own and control it and have the risk to have it blow up on Ireland

But yeah if its going to go bang better for it to be built in Cork and then it would go bang in Cork

Then that shower of cute ........... can feck off from the radio active cloud and go to to live in Limerick or Galway or Dublin

Then we wont have to listening to them about why isn't Cork the capital of Ireland

We can all say you cant make a capital city on a NUKE radioactive wasteland like CORK

Off course Wind power can be made to work if it is helped along from the top who decide to overide ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia

But its going to be very difficult to make Wind power work when the guys who run the show are madly chasing brown envelopes and wind power lacks those kind of deep pockets and are very cosy up with ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia

ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia can ensure the access to the grid is blocked and delayed

Really with out getting ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia forced to play ball from the top or from EU directives which incurr severe fines for blocking the advance of wind power it going to dificult

ESB/Eirgrid/CER mafia and brown envelope gainers can retire and live as rich cats on some carabeen Islands once they can get the Nuke stations built in Ireland so they will fight wind power or renewables toooooooth and nail

Derry

bowsie casey

Eamon Ryan on The Last Word yesterday said that within 5 years every home would have a smart meter which would enable them to sell electricity back to the grid....he didn't give any detail though.

Heroditas

bowsie casey wrote: »

Eamon Ryan on The Last Word yesterday said that within 5 years every home would have a smart meter which would enable them to sell electricity back to the grid....he didn't give any detail though.

That's the plan anyway. A €1bn plan and it remains to be seen whether it is pie in the sky or not.

derry

bowsie casey wrote: »

Eamon Ryan on The Last Word yesterday said that within 5 years every home would have a smart meter which would enable them to sell electricity back to the grid....he didn't give any detail though.

http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html

There is all the info and plans for connecting your push bike to a generator to generate electricity all 200 watts of it

Even gives details on hooking into these meters and turning your meter backwards:eek:

Now if you could get all the Dail on a keep fit set of Push bikes you owned between the puff power and hot air you would be onto a nice little earner
:pac::pac::pac:

I believe this meter when I see in my gaff

Derry

Heroditas

I've seen the meters. I know the manufacturers of them and I know what technologies they'll be trialling.
A lot of money is being pumped into it.

andrewlownie101

bowsie casey wrote: »

Eamon Ryan on The Last Word yesterday said that within 5 years every home would have a smart meter which would enable them to sell electricity back to the grid....he didn't give any detail though.

Are people that stupid they actually think they will be able to supplement their income by selling back to the grid??

They will have nowhere near enough energy to meet their own needs, never mind thinking they will become a cunning little business man by selling back to the grid.

In 10 years when the environmentally friendly 'new irishman' is sitting in his cardboard apartment with no money to heat the bloody place or cook dinner, because he couldnt afford the extortionate ESB prices and the supplier has subsequently cut their supply 'remotely' using the new 'SMART METER' he will think 'Oh how I have been Had'.

He will wish the EU didnt exisit and will be looking back to the good old days of the 80's. They might not have been any jobs, like there won't be in 10years time, but at least we could afford to eat and warm the house.

Heroditas

Well the main idea is that if you're in bed fast asleep not using electricity and your windmill is still generating electricity, then you can send power to the grid. You might not make money but it will reduce your bill.

EG you "import" 1000kWhr from the grid and use it as well as your own generated power. At night time, you might "export" 200kWhr to the grid - net consumption would then be recorded as 800kWhr and you would get billed for that amount.

maniac101

Heroditas wrote: »

Well the main idea is that if you're in bed fast asleep not using electricity and your windmill is still generating electricity, then you can send power to the grid. You might not make money but it will reduce your bill.

EG you "import" 1000kWhr from the grid and use it as well as your own generated power. At night time, you might "export" 200kWhr to the grid - net consumption would then be recorded as 800kWhr and you would get billed for that amount.

Whatever way smart metering will untimately be implemented, it won't be like that. What you're describing there is net metering, not smart metering. If you export 200kWh to the grid, there's no way that a supplier would pay you the retail price, or give you a net credit of 200kWh for it. A smart meter enables the supplier to differentiate between electricity imported and electricity exported, and therefore to use different buy and sell rates. We pay over 15c per kWh at the moment. Commercial wind farms get less than 6c per kWh for electricity generated. Without government subsidies, a supplier would pay less than that domestically generated wind power. So for every three units you export to the system you might get just one unit of credit for it.

andrewlownie101

Heroditas wrote: »

Well the main idea is that if you're in bed fast asleep not using electricity and your windmill is still generating electricity, then you can send power to the grid. You might not make money but it will reduce your bill.

EG you "import" 1000kWhr from the grid and use it as well as your own generated power. At night time, you might "export" 200kWhr to the grid - net consumption would then be recorded as 800kWhr and you would get billed for that amount.

Your some craic :pac:.

derry

andrewlownie101 wrote: »

Are people that stupid they actually think they will be able to supplement their income by selling back to the grid??

They will have nowhere near enough energy to meet their own needs, never mind thinking they will become a cunning little business man by selling back to the grid.

In 10 years when the environmentally friendly 'new irishman' is sitting in his cardboard apartment with no money to heat the bloody place or cook dinner, because he couldnt afford the extortionate ESB prices and the supplier has subsequently cut their supply 'remotely' using the new 'SMART METER' he will think 'Oh how I have been Had'.

He will wish the EU didnt exisit and will be looking back to the good old days of the 80's. They might not have been any jobs, like there won't be in 10years time, but at least we could afford to eat and warm the house.

I am with you on that
Most of the 1 million ESB victims who live in Dublin city will have no way to gererate Electricity
Like try getting planning permission to erecet a tower with a wind generator in you county counsil house garden or a wind generatoron your appartment balconony or roof

So its only the few farmers in the sticks who got land that can do this

So that leaves only the Bike with power generator attached for your joe soaps Paddy or Mary stuck in carboard apartments which makes like 400 Watts or at best 1/100 of he power they use

So the smart meter purpose is only to make the job of the ESB more easy to cut off the power when you don't pay your bill as your one of the masses of unemployed chosen by the regime to die from starvation and cold as being a drag on the economy and surplus to requirements

Derry

Cianos

Has there since been any updates on plans for allowing people to sell back to the grid?

quentingargan

Cianos wrote: »

Has there since been any updates on plans for allowing people to sell back to the grid?

Yes - a substantial change. The ESB will now buy back electricity from renewables (wind, micro-hydro, solar) for 9c per Kw Hr and the first 3,000 units exported in any one year gets an extra 10c for the next five years, bringing the total to 19c for those units.

You have to use a grid tie inverter that is certified under EN50438, including some specific ESB variables on voltage and frequency (that are unique to Ireland) but there are inverters available that meet this spec and if you pm me I can give more info on that.

The ESB currently doesn't care about the quality of wind turbine or whatever that is upstream of the inverter, so you can make your own, or buy just about anything! Q

Cianos

quentingargan wrote: »

Yes - a substantial change. The ESB will now buy back electricity from renewables (wind, micro-hydro, solar) for 9c per Kw Hr and the first 3,000 units exported in any one year gets an extra 10c for the next five years, bringing the total to 19c for those units.

You have to use a grid tie inverter that is certified under EN50438, including some specific ESB variables on voltage and frequency (that are unique to Ireland) but there are inverters available that meet this spec and if you pm me I can give more info on that.

The ESB currently doesn't care about the quality of wind turbine or whatever that is upstream of the inverter, so you can make your own, or buy just about anything! Q

Thanks for the reply. 9c per KWHR seems pretty good, I did a quick search and it seems in the UK they are paid around 4p. Is there a maximum output that is considered sellable or does the ESB have a limit on buying from one particular source? And finally, are wood pellet burners considered renewable and would they fall under this scheme?

Thanks

quentingargan

Cianos wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. 9c per KWHR seems pretty good, I did a quick search and it seems in the UK they are paid around 4p. Is there a maximum output that is considered sellable or does the ESB have a limit on buying from one particular source? And finally, are wood pellet burners considered renewable and would they fall under this scheme?

Thanks

THe limit from one source is about 6kw for single phase, and 11kw for 3 phase. In the UK they pay about 4p, but on top of that you get paid ROCs (Renewable Obligation Certificates) which are paid on all electricity generated, whether sold or not.

Biomass CHP plants are covered under a different system. I don't know much about this, but the rate there is 12c per KwHr. Q

Cianos

quentingargan wrote: »

THe limit from one source is about 6kw for single phase, and 11kw for 3 phase. In the UK they pay about 4p, but on top of that you get paid ROCs (Renewable Obligation Certificates) which are paid on all electricity generated, whether sold or not.

Biomass CHP plants are covered under a different system. I don't know much about this, but the rate there is 12c per KwHr. Q

Cheers. If one were to be looking in to this as a kind of business, would that be in any way plausible?

quentingargan

Cianos wrote: »

Cheers. If one were to be looking in to this as a kind of business, would that be in any way plausible?

There are some fairly exuberent salespeople for wind turbines who would have you believe you could retire on the proceeds of your wind turbine, but I prefer to think of this the same way as double glazing or insulation - a good quality turbine or micro-hydro system is a gilt-edged investment in your home that will both increase its value and offer a long-term return on your investment.

truerenew

With regard to the micro wind trial scheme the last I heard was that very few people applied to SEI. Part of the reason is that there very few manufacturers/suppliers have the required certificates in terms of performance and safety of the micro wind turbines. Even the popular manufacturer Proven do not have all the models in their range tested to the EN standard required.

For anyone thinking about going down this route you should really do your research. Both in terms of the turbine and the wind resource. The vast majority of the sites (unless on the top of an exposed hill on the West coast) will not make an economic return in investment...especially based on the prices some suppliers are quoting for installation. Do not base your wind speeds on the Irish Wind Atlas!

If your happy with a long payback period then fair play and good luck, but my personal feeling is there is better ways to both save money and help the environment.

dufferman

im doing a course on micro generation at the moment and from what i see its not worth ur while installing a wind turbine on a one off house. reasons being 1- the cost of 3.2kw proven turbine fully installed is about 24000e inc vat, a 6kw(most popular) is 34000e inc vat, so ul be along time paying that back. 2-most sites would be between 1/2 acre to 3/4 acre in size but to have your turbine working effectivily it has to be 70 metres from any objects that block the wind(house or trees) and must also be 6meters above them so that rules out alot of sites. 3- a lot of areas are too sheltered and wont give u the required wind speeds
however for farms and business with large esb bills i think its worth thinking about, farms have the space and can keep away from trees and other objects and can go up to 20m without planning, both can claim vat back and also write off 12.5% against tax for 5 years, so with a decent wind speed u could get ur money back within 5-7 years which is not bad.
the instructer on the course runs his house off a hybrid system which includes a 3.2kw turbine and solar power
the inverter is an amazing piece of kit, it takes in the power generated from the turbine,cleans it up and sends out 230v to ur consumer board and whatever power ur house does not use is sent back down the esb line which u get paid .19 cent for the first 3000 units every year and then .9 cent after that
also from what iv learned so far there are alot of cheap **** on the market at the moment that promise large amounts of kw at low wind speeds so u have to be carefull. proven seem to have the best design but they are more expensive

quentingargan

Having a suitable site is the key to wind energy being cost effective, but you have to bear in mind that even a very pessimistic 20 year payback represents a 5% return on investment - more than any bank is offering at the moment. Also, the return on investment will improve as time goes by because energy prices are going to continue to rise. People were buying houses (even in the boom) based on a 3% return on investment from rental. Farmers buy land with even worse returns, so this all isn't quite as daft as it seems.

Over-zealous salesmen have been promising payback times of 5 years, and this has created the illusion that somehow you can put up a wind turbine and get 20% return on investment. That is just rubbish!

For the last six years or so, our own house has been powered by a 2.5kw Proven generator and more recently we bolted on a micro-hydro and some solar PVs. We did this in the days when there was no notion of the ESB every buying electricity so grid connection wasn't an option, and batteries were de rigeur. I wouldn't do that today. We reckon our payback time on that system was about 70 years, and it was done for experimental and ethical reasons only.

We realised that there was no market for equipment at these prices and set about producing a generator that would make more sense, but I won't plug that here. PM me if you want more.

If you aim too low at some of the rubbish that is out there promising a 5 year payback, well .... good luck if you get 5 years out of the equipment! Yes, buyer beware. But contrary to some of the comments here, I think micro-generation has a role, particularly in Ireland where there is a very high percentage of one-off houses on suitable sites. If you don't live in one of those, then wait for the solar revolution when PVs come down to US$1 per watt. That might make sense in housing estates.

Ball_of_Sex

I work in micro generation. Just to let ye know that the pay back periods on PV and wind turbine system are massive. Twice as long as solar thermal.

quentingargan

Ball_of_Sex wrote: »

I work in micro generation. Just to let ye know that the pay back periods on PV and wind turbine system are massive. Twice as long as solar thermal.

I work in renewables as well (quite a few of us on this forum do). My work is primarily with both wind and solar water heating, but I also have worked on solar PV projects in Spain.

I agree that payback on PVs is terrible at present. In Spain it only works because there is a feed in tariff of over 30c per Kw Hr, along with double the sunlight.

But payback times for wind and solar thermal are more nuanced. For example, many claim that the payback time for solar water heating is 5 years - it usually isn't. A system costing, say, €4,500, with a grant of €1,000 or so, will save you about €300 to €350 a year tops. Thats a ten year payback time. A wind turbine on a really good site may have a payback time of 12 years, and on a poor site a lot more than that.

But in either of these cases, the return on investment is 8 to 10%, and this improves as energy prices rise - its a lot better than most other investments are performing!

But solar water heating in a holiday home may have very poor payback performance if the heat from it is not being used - it depends how often you get down there. Meeting part L by producing electricity which can be sold is an option that just might work in some cases, certainly not all.

BTW, there is a holiday home scheme in Wexford in which solar thermal was fitted without heat dumps, and in over 30 of the houses, the systems failed during May 2008 when the houses were unoccupied, leaking gylcol onto varnished floors. Holiday homes must have heat dumps.

bladespin

Ball_of_Sex wrote: »

I work in micro generation. Just to let ye know that the pay back periods on PV and wind turbine system are massive. Twice as long as solar thermal.

Clarify please, from what I know there isn't much in it, and even then payback is totally dependant on the costs involved - system size, position, location etc.