Editing a Flash Webpage

Smcgie

Hi folks, I am in the middle of getting a flash website made. I have asked the devloper to make (very small) changes to the site, in terms of adding pictures and swapping the location of one of the links. This developer is asking for 100s to do these simple task and i feel like i am being ripped off.

Can anyone tell me, is there that major workload in a flash page that you wouldnt have in an normal Html page. I myself can easily edit an html page, but i have never been involved with flash content.

If i thought it was simple enough i would give the developer the money he's owed and make the changes myself.

Best Regards,
Shane

forbairt

Smcgie wrote: »

Hi folks, I am in the middle of getting a flash website made. I have asked the devloper to make (very small) changes to the site, in terms of adding pictures and swapping the location of one of the links. This developer is asking for 100s to do these simple task and i feel like i am being ripped off.

Can anyone tell me, is there that major workload in a flash page that you wouldnt have in an normal Html page. I myself can easily edit an html page, but i have never been involved with flash content.

If i thought it was simple enough i would give the developer the money he's owed and make the changes myself.

Best Regards,
Shane

Really it depends on how the system is built up.

There is a MAJOR difference between html and flash.

You're talking actionscript / timelines / scenes and so on.

If you'd originally asked for a mechanism to update it yourself it would have been better. Now assuming the developer didn't put in an easy to update mechanism I'll assume you're locked in.

Do you have the source files ?
Do you have Flash ?

Smcgie

Yes i sourced everything on site. Pictures, text everything. His only job was to build the site to a TEMPLATED specification. Having done the template i wanted to add pictures, swap links etc (honestly nothing substancial) and he is a asking for over 245+ to make these small changes.

Relations with him have not been good as he has taken over 6months to create this site which is nothing but 5pages of text and about 5-6 pictures that will hardly ever need updating. He never replies to my emails and when i ring him he says he never recieved them.

Basically i think he's taking the mick. I dont know what to do.:rolleyes:

kcim

Are u bound to him? As I would love to take it on board

aidan_walsh

kcim wrote: »

Are u bound to him? As I would love to take it on board

No solicitations on this forum, thanks.

Smcgie

kcim wrote: »

Are u bound to him? As I would love to take it on board

Funny enough, i was just looking through another post and i seen your website (simplepixels) . I have already given the developer half the money :mad: so im stuck between a rock and a hard place.

What sort of money would you be talking?

Smcgie

sorry aidan just after seeing you post

aidan_walsh

If you want someone to take on the job, you can post the job on www.adverts.ie. Thanks.

Smcgie

Is there any downloadable software that can assist editing a flash website?

heggie

Smcgie wrote: »

If i thought it was simple enough i would give the developer the money he's owed and make the changes myself.

So you owe this developer money? shouldn't you pay up? Isn't this a major warning sign to anybody contemplating taking this on from you?

Smcgie

Ill explain...

I have given the designer half the money upfront to create the site (which is fair) He asked me to write up what i wanted on the site and source pictures. I did both of the following and sent this to him. Now that he has the raw materials he designs the site layout. I now want to make small changes to the layout and he is requesting extreme fees.

I owe him the finished fee (half the total $) but i dont agree to parting with the finished fee until the job is complete.

What i am saying is maybe i should pay him the finished fee without making the changes (which will cost a small fortune) and then do it myself or get someone else to do so.

Money is not an issue, communtication with the developer, and daylight robbery are. He thinks im going to give him 245+ to make minor changes that should be included as he is the DESIGNER. :rolleyes:

heggie

well not really. Project scope is one of the most important parts in quoting design & development. If you're requesting 'small changes' , that may be outside the initial project scope. Do you have a contact? if so, this should be a major part of that contract. It's best for both parties if you finished the job to the agreed specification, and request changes after, as new work. Also remember, what you think are small changes, may actually be quite large at the stage of development the site is at.

Smcgie

take a look at the site yourself, its a mess in my opnion. There's numerous spelling mistakes and he has simply just copyed and pasted everthing i sent him, insufficent and total lack of design in my opnion.

Let me know would this meet your standereds?

http://samyakonline.info/bero/
:rolleyes:

Shane

Liam Byrne

Smcgie wrote: »

Money is not an issue, communtication with the developer, and daylight robbery are. He thinks im going to give him 245+ to make minor changes that should be included as he is the DESIGNER. :rolleyes:

1) Very few sites should be done in Flash unless it's absolutely essential (and I've yet to see one that is.

2) If you use Flash, you should only use it as and when required (e.g. as PART OF a page) if Flash is used for the whole site then the tiniest of changes can have MAJOR knock-on effects

3) Even for "normal" HTML sites, relatively minor repositioning, resizing or layout adjustments can be a huge job; if the site is done right, with CSS, the impact can be minimised, but even minimised can be big.

4) minor "changes" are precisely that - changes. They take time and cost money. And there's no definition of "minor" without seeing what you originally agreed to, how the site is implemented, and what the changes are.

What you're looking at is approximately 1 days' work, from the charge that you mentioned. That could be 2 hours designing the change within what's there, 3 hours implementing it, and 3 hours testing - none of which is extreme, tbh, particularly if there are animations and timelines involved.

There's a chance that he might be taking the piss, but there's also a good chance that he's not, and screaming "highway robbery" is probably unfair; slightly overcharging would appear to be the worst description of it.

Would you prefer if he charged you €50 and then your site didn't work in some browser or other ?

Smcgie

take a look at the site yourself, its a mess in my opnion. There's numerous spelling mistakes and he has simply just copyed and pasted everthing i sent him, insufficent and total lack of design in my opnion.

Let me know would this meet your standerds?

http://samyakonline.info/bero/
:rolleyes:

Shane

Smcgie

Take a look at the site yourself, its a mess in my opnion. There's numerous spelling mistakes and he has simply just copyed and pasted everthing i sent him, insufficent and total lack of design in my opnion.

Let me know would this meet your standerds as a (and i quote) "A Professionally Designed Website"

http://samyakonline.info/bero/
:rolleyes:

Shane

kcim

aidan_walsh wrote: »

No solicitations on this forum, thanks.

Sorry 'bout that Mr.Boards

Liam Byrne

Smcgie wrote: »

take a look at the site yourself, its a mess in my opnion. There's numerous spelling mistakes

That's not good, but...

....he has simply just copyed and pasted everthing i sent him

So you provided text with spelling mistakes ? Did your contract state that you would provide proper text ?

Yes, I would often fix the more obvious spelling mistakes, but even at that I can't guarantee to catch them all. If you were to provide the text, then you should have proof-read it.

Let me know would this meet your standerds?

The spelling in your post, or the whole site ?

Smcgie

Take a look at the site yourself, its a mess in my opnion. There's numerous spelling mistakes and he has simply just copyed and pasted everthing i sent him, insufficent and total lack of design (i think)

Let me know would this meet your standerds as a (and i quote) "A Professionally Designed Website"

http://samyakonline.info/bero/
:rolleyes:

Shane

heggie

eh read it the first time. The site isn't great by any means, but hey you get what you pay for, i'm guessing the price is what attracted you to him. Always hire someone based on their portfolio of work. Also, he was hired to design a site, not to be a copywriter. If you give bad copy, it's not up to a website designer or developer to correct that.

Liam Byrne

Had a quick look, and there's absolutely no reason that the site should be in Flash.

Most of the images that appear give you a "click here" cursor, but don't do anything.

Text in "pop-up" windows is too small to read.

Were you provided with (and did you agree to) static proofs of what the site would look like before implementation started ?

And what are the "minor changes" that you are requesting ? And also - what was the original price/quote for the site ? That would also have a bearing on how much "changes of mind" can be absorbed.

kcim

Smcgie wrote: »

take a look at the site yourself, its a mess in my opnion. There's numerous spelling mistakes and he has simply just copyed and pasted everthing i sent him, insufficent and total lack of design in my opnion.

Let me know would this meet your standerds?

http://samyakonline.info/bero/
:rolleyes:

Shane

Hi Shane, I'm appalled with so-called designers taken well established business like yourselves for a ride. There is no reason for your website to be done in Flash. The type of business that you have would have been better to do the site with CSS. And as for comic-sans, not good mate.

jhegarty

the site took over 30 to load on 3g connection... it won't be found on a search engine at all... and even if I did find it , it would have click back before the load finished...

no need for flash at all...

Myxomatosis

A lot of the text too small, can't read vertical text, scroll bars don't work properly with mouse wheel. All text should be set to selectable, allowing people to copy and paste info off your site.

Flash movie taller than my screen (1440 x 900) which causes web browser to show scroll bars, but mouse wheel again doesn't work because the flash movie grabs the scroll event before the browser does.

Basic layout shouldn't be a problem to move a link or change a pic. Download Flash CS3 30 day trial and do it yourself.

smcelhinney

All good posts above Shane. There are 2 sides to this:

1) This is a brochure website and shouldnt have been built in flash, was this your developers stipulation or yours?
2) Unless you are a flash/web developer, you cannot decide what is and is not a minor change.

Also, Im sure I've seen that Flash site somewhere before? Or a variation on it. I may be speaking out of turn on that, and apologies to your developer if I ham done him/her an injustice.

Also, as far as I know if you pay for Flash development, you are entitled to the source, unless there is a contract between you and the developer which states otherwise. If you are absolutely certain that what you are looking for is a minimal change, pay the guy for work done, demand the source code, and have someone else change it (or better still, learn how to do it yourself, it will save you haing to pay maintenance in the future).

HTH,
Stephen

Smcgie

sorry guys, vodafone 3g playing up this evening.

An few examples of changes i requested and costs.

Make the flash display itself smaller to fit into the browser properly (no scrolling to see homepage) COST=140

swap the positions of vertical homepage link and contact us link - COST=245

I sourced a few pictures and asked him to make a collaise on the flash moving page COST=245

Add a pop-up window to 2 pictures (when clicked) and add text COST=185

As for the flash decision, i approched him on the matter after meeting a couple of nice flash sites and he recommended it as "the growing age of the internet means faster broadband speeds for flash pages, and flash will add character to your site" (cost extra 150 i might add :rolleyes:)

I checked and double checked all text i sent to him. Most (not all) of the spelling mistakes on site are overtypes by the designer. Some information has even been typed twice side-by-side.

I sent him a info on the FAQs page. I made clear in blue writing and in brackets (MAKE www.sei.ie a link) he simply copy and pasted the text INCLUDING THE TEXT MAKED BLUE i& BRACKETS onto the site.:(

heggie

sounds like a language barrier, and it's not a very professional result, but as I said earlier, you get what you pay for, and I'll bet that this site didn't cost professional industry rates. There is rarely a case for an all flash site.

heggie

that's put together using tables, which, nowadays is a bad way to put a site together. Also, having the nav in flash, and with no text alternative is not recommended, Especially when all those effects can be achieved with javascript.

Both that site, and yours also have a 'templatey' feel. I'm not suggesting that they are templates - I've nothign to back this up, but they do feel that way to me, little thought has gone into the design of them imo.

Smcgie

http://www.kildeal.com/kildareheritage/index.html This is a website created by the same company. Its not as if they cannot design websites..
The link above is what i believe to be a classy and well layed out webpage.

This is what attracted me to the company. Money for the site was not an issue. All i want is a website that has character, class and something which i in the future i hope to develop into a larger end of my business.

In terms of "you get what you pay for" The link above was created by the site and i cannot see why he is incapable of doing the same for me

heggie

- see my response above, that's still not quality design imo

Smcgie

heggie wrote: »

Both that site, and yours also have a 'templatey' feel.

They are templates. He asked me to look through templates and suggest what i would like as a page. He said that this was only to let him know what i was after then the template page would be COMPLETLY changed to make it unique for my business.

Somehow i doubt he changed much on the templates. I might just have to bite the bullet and cut off this dead limb.

The famous quote "You get what you pay for" is prob something i'll deff remember for the next episode of webdesign

heggie

Makes sense why the changes are costing so much compared to your initial purchase, a template may cost 50 dollars, but chaging its layout/structure could easily cost 5 times that.
Template & unique do not go together, surely, if someone is showing you a list of pre-designed websites, you can't expect a custom one?

Talk to a proper web design/dev company when you value the online aspect of your business, and want a true bespoke website.

Smcgie

heggie wrote: »

Makes sense why the changes are costing so much compared to your initial purchase, a template may cost 50 dollars, but chaging its layout/structure could easily cost 5 times that.
Template & unique do not go together, surely, if someone is showing you a list of pre-designed websites, you can't expect a custom one?

Talk to a proper web design/dev company when you value the online aspect of your business, and want a true bespoke website.

Thanks Heggie, i was edgy about templates but he said that it had to be picked to let him know what i was after. Ive waisted 6months on this project, and i think im going to go back to square 1 with the site. I can create a site myself through word but i find it wouldnt be near as attractive as a professionals.

Is dreamweaver much of an addition? or any other software for that matter?

heggie

word shouldn't be considered for a website.

dreamweaver is good software, but that's all it is, a tool for creating a site, it's not going to make it for you. People spend years learning how to design, contruct & develop websites. Just because it's relatively easy enough to throw something up on the web doesnt mean you should. For roughly the cost of the adobe software (dreamweaver, photoshop etc - keeping in mind you would still need extensive training to use these) you could hire someone to create a website for you.

One thing to watch out for though, is jack of all trades. In my opinion, a website has atleast two critical people in development (other than the client) - thats the designer & the developer. A designer studies typography, grid systems, layout, usability, information architecture, whereas a developer implements them (hopefully to web standards) and creates great code. They are 2 separate jobs, but any decent web studio should have both of these covered.

The Mighty Ken

As has already been said, you get what you pay for.

If you want a cheap website for a small business, get a simple HTML one done up by a junior designer and forget about Flash altogether.

Smcgie

Who would you use, or can you point me in the right direction? I need someone that i can work with.

PM me.

Thanks for your time Heggie, really appreciated.

The Mighty Ken

I don't really know any junior designers personally but I'm sure there are a few on there that would be willing to help you out.

p

He isn't ripping you off from the sounds of things. 250 quid could be a days work. With Flash sites, often what seems like something simple can take a long time. I'd imagine that's the case even more so with template sites.

You pay a premium price for Flash sites, HTML ones are generally easier to maintain and cause less hassle. It's hard to advise the best course of action really. You could get a better designer than that guy, but they'd probably cost more. Sounds like this guy is a bit of a beginner so isn't pricing things or communicating pricing to you effectively.

Axwell

I dont think you can go blaming him for the spelling mistakes if you provide the text for him to add so really that comes down to your own error.

As for changes to the site, as someone else said changes should come afterwards and he has every right to charge for them at that point.

Another issue i think is your own beliefs on what is good design and this a lot of times is the biggest problem i feel. If you speak to a designer about a website then you are going to them for advce as much as to develop you a site. If you like the look of a flash site and feel its a perfect example of a good site then you cant complain down the line when you get a flash site and then find out its not a good example of web design on here. There was no need for flash to be used in that project but it was what you wanted.

You get what you pay for as with anything else. Advice and a designer pointing out to you what is good design and what you should be looking for in your site is part of their job and as much part of the service as anything else. If you dont want to pay for this kind of service then you leave yourself open to getting sub standard work and not being happy in the long run.

forbairt

A few things I can think of .... in response to various questions on here.

If the customer originally didn't ask for the source files they won't be getting them. If they did ask for source files that takes me out of the loop further down the road so I charge accordingly.

If I work on graphics they won't be getting the source files they are getting the end result. If I work on flash they are getting the final product not the complete source code. It would be different if I'm contracted by a company as their developer to develop something for them specifically.

Templates similar to the one shown (both look very Template monster to me) are probably a complete bitc.. to customize. There is a reason they sell for 50 quid. Normally they don't have nice ways of updating them apart from adding a bit of text here and there. (which sometimes can be as simple as updating a bit of XML somewhere).

Hmmm not knowing the amount of work involved .. I can't really comment on the person in questions prices. Especially as I don't know their hourly rate for work.

In the past I've received extremely bad text / copy for a site and I've taken it upon myself to fix it up. My engrish not being the best it took me a while to sort it out and I didn't end up getting paid (for the english corrections). In future what the customer supplies me with would be what gets put on the site apart from any glaringly obvious things I pick up. Unless you've got a contract stating otherwise with the designer ... I would assume that the text you give them will be what will appear on the site.

(just a few thoughts on it all)

heggie

Smcgie wrote: »

Who would you use, or can you point me in the right direction? I need someone that i can work with.

PM me.

Thanks for your time Heggie, really appreciated.

No problem, I would use myself, or recommend myself hehe but I'm too busy to take on any new projects at the moment. If you take a look at http://creativeireland.com/directory/ you should find some companies to check out, also there are users here on boards - Forbairt and DJB among others which may be able to help. Best of luck.