Why the riddle?

MrPudding

Biro wrote: »

I have problems with an athiest saying what is and isn't Christian - not because you don't know, but because you don't want to know.

What makes you think I don't want to know? What you call christian behaviour I call simple human decency and good manners. If you prefer I can call it "not very nice" or something like that?

MrP

CerebralCortex

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not arguing. And the above is a good example of what I said. Its not about belief, its about faith. Satan believes God exists, but chooses not to follow him...

In fairness how did the creator of the universe get into that mess.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Here's another scenario. Someone walks into a room and sees money lying on a table, has a look around to check that nobody is there and then pockets the money.

On the other hand, if God were there looking over your shoulder, would you still go ahead and steal the money? Not likely.

So when God is not visibly present, our real intentions and desires are revealed. God wants us to be mature spiritually and not act like children. We're never going to grow up if He has to hold our hands all the time. God invisibility is His means of testing and purifying us.

Kelly1 you speak of this god like he's a software test and validation engineer not an omnipotent all knowing god. There are far simpler ways of knowing someones true nature than what you describe if you are pure unlimited power. No?

philologos

Testing is for the benefit of humanity, not for the knowledge of God. Through our lives events can make us stronger people, and can lead us towards faith. If we pray and seek to submit ourselves to be of God's will and not our own, that involves us gradually growing with Him to be the people He wants us to be.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

Testing is for the benefit of humanity, not for the knowledge of God. Through our lives events can make us stronger people, and can lead us towards faith. If we pray and seek to submit ourselves to be of God's will and not our own, that involves us gradually growing with Him to be the people He wants us to be.

Sorry that doesn't make much sense could you elaborate? This still seems to be a creation step in the creation process of a human what does god do to those who don't find themselves led towards faith? This stuff is very difficult to get even after 16 or 17 years of acceptance of religious teaching.

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

What makes you think I don't want to know? What you call christian behaviour I call simple human decency and good manners. If you prefer I can call it "not very nice" or something like that?

Speaking as a mod, rather than as a poster, I think that would be better.

Many years ago, shortly after I became a Christian, a guy saw me on the street. I'd had a few run-ins with him prior to my conversion and the last one had left him with a fat lip. This time he ran up and punched me in the face saying, "Ha! Now you have to turn the other cheek!" Unfortunately, as a new Christian, I was imperfectly sanctified so, in direct contravention of the words of Jesus, I gave him a good kicking. I can still see him lying on the ground, blood running out of his mouth, saying, "Huh! And you call yourself a Christian!"

We have had some unfortunate incidents on this board where some non-Christian posters think they can verbally attack and bully Christians and, if the Christian argues back, they say, "That's not very Christian of you."

If you play nice then others should play nicely in return. If you try to presume on the turning the other cheek stuff then you will find that the Bible also says "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

So, if you feel someone is unduly aggressive then just tell them that's not very nice of them, - or any other rebuke that is neither too insulting nor loaded with religious connotations. If its OTT then report the post.

But let's avoid you accusing anyone of "not being very Christian" and in turn I will avoid accusing you of "not being very atheist".

philologos

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Sorry that doesn't make much sense could you elaborate? This still seems to be a creation step in the creation process of a human what does god do to those who don't find themselves led towards faith? This stuff is very difficult to get even after 16 or 17 years of acceptance of religious teaching.

Sure. God puts us through situations, to help us learn more about ourselves and to learn how to do things better in the future. For example, we are in a given situation, and we fall to sin. We feel bad, we change our ways, and hopefully change our behaviour in the future to more fully conform to what God expects of us. Do you ever wonder why in the Bible it gives us several accounts of people falling against God's will? This is to set a precadent. Examples, Noah getting drunk, Lot getting drunk and having incestual relations, King David committing adultery, St. Paul persecuting Christians, Jonah running away from God when He had called Him to preach. The same kind of events happen in our lives on a spiritual level, or so I would argue anyway.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

Sure. God puts us through situations, to help us learn more about ourselves and to learn how to do things better in the future. For example, we are in a given situation, and we fall to sin. We feel bad, we change our ways, and hopefully change our behaviour in the future to more fully conform to what God expects of us.....

That makes sense but isn't that just using god to explain away difficult situations that we inevitably come across and we learned to deal with our selfs anyway correctly or incorrectly. The difference being christians reward themselves mentally by "saying I'm closer" to this idea of god because of the way (perceived as correct) they're going to deal with a similar situation in the future.

Jakkass wrote: »

Do you ever wonder why in the Bible it gives us several accounts of people falling against God's will?.....

No not really.

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

Many years ago, shortly after I became a Christian, a guy saw me on the street. I'd had a few run-ins with him prior to my conversion and the last one had left him with a fat lip. This time he ran up and punched me in the face saying, "Ha! Now you have to turn the other cheek!" Unfortunately, as a new Christian, I was imperfectly sanctified so, in direct contravention of the words of Jesus, I gave him a good kicking. I can still see him lying on the ground, blood running out of his mouth, saying, "Huh! And you call yourself a Christian!"

My question would be, "you call yourself a member of civilised society?" but then what do I know.

PDN wrote: »

We have had some unfortunate incidents on this board where some non-Christian posters think they can verbally attack and bully Christians and, if the Christian argues back, they say, "That's not very Christian of you."

That is not really what happened here though is it? Biro said something, which he himself said was not very nice. I simply pointed out that that it was not very christian. Are you trying to say that because I am not a christian I don't know what christian behaviour is? Do you have to be a professional sportmans to pass comment on a particular game? Do you have to be a film director to know whether or not a movie is good?

I spent years being told what christian behaviour is. I have seen people posting over and over again on this thread what christian behaviour should be. I am reasonably intelligent, believe it or not , and am perfectly capable of working out if a particular behaviour is correct for the way of life that person claims to follow.

I meant no offense to Biro, and was simply pointing out what he already effectively admitted himself. If he takes offense at being told by an athiest that something he said was unchristian then perhaps he is a bit sensitive. Would it have been OK if a christian said it?

I don't see what the problem is to be honest. Everyone, christian or otherwise, knows what christian behaviour is. It is not like it is a secret or anything. Anyone that knows what christian behaviour should be will be capable of comparing observed behaviour with required behaviour and working out if it is christian or not. I am not passing judgement on his behaviour or calling his faith into question, simply pointing out what was very obvious.

PDN wrote: »

If you play nice then others should play nicely in return. If you try to presume on the turning the other cheek stuff then you will find that the Bible also says "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

Sure.

PDN wrote: »

So, if you feel someone is unduly aggressive then just tell them that's not very nice of them, - or any other rebuke that is neither too insulting nor loaded with religious connotations. If its OTT then report the post.

I did not think he was being aggressive or OTT. He said:

Biro wrote:

If He appeared to keep the like of you happy, it would piss me off something serious.

Not particulary aggressive, not very nice. I think if you went out on the street and asked a random sample of people if they thought this was a christian thing to say we know what the answer would be, and they would not need to be a christian to answer it.

PDN wrote: »

But let's avoid you accusing anyone of "not being very Christian" and in turn I will avoid accusing you of "not being very atheist".

I will try, but I do object to the fact that you and others on this board are of the opinion that the only people that are clever enough to work out if something is christian behaviour or not are christians.

MrP

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

My question would be, "you call yourself a member of civilised society?" but then what do I know.

I wouldn't at that point have called myself a member of civilised society. I was a homeless, formerly atheist, drunk who had just recently trusted in Christ to have his sins forgiven and was trying to work out how to live a new lifestyle. After a few years of living on the streets I had a long way to go to achieve anything resembling civilised.

Having said that, the guy who attacked me was probably even less civilised than I was! If he had even used a phrase such as 'civilised society' I think we would both have been astonished.

That is not really what happened here though is it?

And if you will read my post carefully you will see that I never claimed it was the case with you. I am simply explaining the context behind atheists trying to tell Christians what is 'Christian' or not and why that is likely to be offensive.

Biro said something, which he himself said was not very nice. I simply pointed out that that it was not very christian. Are you trying to say that because I am not a christian I don't know what christian behaviour is? Do you have to be a professional sportmans to pass comment on a particular game? Do you have to be a film director to know whether or not a movie is good?

Christians disagree among themselves as to what constitutes Christian behaviour - and to label something as 'unChristian' is, for believers, a very value-laden term.

Also, any group will resent an outsider trying to enforce his or her definition on them. It is like an American tourist coming to Ireland and telling me I'm not really Irish because I hate fiddley-hi music and don't have red hair. I find the idea that I should be judged by his cheesey idea of Oirishness to be pretty offensive.

If you think that we're being over-sensitive on this then try lecturing a Muslim or a Jew on whether their behaviour is sufficiently Islamic or Jewish.

I am reasonably intelligent, believe it or not , and am perfectly capable of working out if a particular behaviour is correct for the way of life that person claims to follow.

Congratulations - you're obviously much better at this stuff than I am. I frequently encounter ethical dilemmas where I am unsure what is the correct behaviour for a Christian.

I will try, but I do object to the fact that you and others on this board are of the opinion that the only people that are clever enough to work out if something is christian behaviour or not are christians.

Nobody is saying that - but object away as much as you like if it makes you feel better.

I'm simply trying to keep the peace on this board so we can have constructive discussions and hopefully understand one another's faiths better.

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

I wouldn't at that point have called myself a member of civilised society. I was a homeless, formerly atheist, drunk who had just recently trusted in Christ to have his sins forgiven and was trying to work out how to live a new lifestyle. After a few years of living on the streets I had a long way to go to achieve anything resembling civilised.

OK, you win that one.

PDN wrote: »

Having said that, the guy who attacked me was probably even less civilised than I was! If he had even used a phrase such as 'civilised society' I think we would both have been astonished.

I actually laughed out loud at this one.

PDN wrote: »

And if you will read my post carefully you will see that I never claimed it was the case with you.

I know you didn't, I was simply clarifying my position.

PDN wrote: »

I am simply explaining the context behind atheists trying to tell Christians what is 'Christian' or not and why that is likely to be offensive.

OK, a bit touchy, got it.

PDN wrote: »

Christians disagree among themselves as to what constitutes Christian behaviour - and to label something as 'unChristian' is, for believers, a very value-laden term.

I would have thought that in some cases it was obvious.

PDN wrote: »

Also, any group will resent an outsider trying to enforce his or her definition on them.

I was not forcing my opinion, I think it was fairly obvious.

PDN wrote: »

Congratulations - you're obviously much better at this stuff than I am. I frequently encounter ethical dilemmas where I am unsure what is the correct behaviour for a Christian.

Please. Take a look at the line I commented on. Hardly an ethical dilemma.

PDN wrote: »

Nobody is saying that - but object away as much as you like if it makes you feel better.

It does, thanks.

PDN wrote: »

I'm simply trying to keep the peace on this board so we can have constructive discussions and hopefully understand one another's faiths better.

Cool enough.

MrP

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Testing is for the benefit of humanity, not for the knowledge of God. Through our lives events can make us stronger people, and can lead us towards faith. If we pray and seek to submit ourselves to be of God's will and not our own, that involves us gradually growing with Him to be the people He wants us to be.

That sounds like something, someone who is trying to make excuses for the lack of proof of God. So what - he waits every 2000 years to say hello, and then fades off into the darkness for another couple of 1000 years?

It seems to me that you're REALLY reaching to explain your faith. It's not a test. He doesn't need to test you. If he exists, he already knows what man is capable and isn't capable of.

GLaDOS

The problem as I see it is, by not appearing himself, God puts the matter of faith in human hands, who are by nature sinful. How can we be expected to be faithful when we only have what other humans tell us? You could argue that the Bible is Gods word, however it has been translated by humans, taken from eyewitness accounts etc. In the end it all comes back to taking the word of others.

Certainly in my life, I have seen no reason to be faithful, I only have the preaching of priests and the Bible. If I'm to belive the Bible, why not the Qur'an aswell? Just as much reason to have faith in that.

Soul Winner

dlofnep wrote: »

If God exists, then why not show himself to the masses. Surely then, everyone would be aware of his existence and would have reason to believe, adhering to his moral standards. Why the need for faith? It makes no sense whatsoever.

It would make perfect sense that if you were a God, you would prove your existence, instead of this long-winded episode of murder she wrote. The mere fact that religion requires faith, is in itself redundant.

Here's a scenario.

God appears to everyone. Tells them to forget their petty squabbles, live a good life and return have a bus pass to heaven. Surely God in his infinite wisdom can see that a 2000 year old story requires a stretch of the imagination to believe in, and it would make much more sense to have re-occuring appearances every couple of decades. This would result in a much ore peaceful world. And surely as a God, he would prefer this?

Riddle me that.

Maybe He doesn't want everyone to be saved. Ever think of that? Maybe He knows that those who He doesn't want to be saved will start believing in Him once they've seen the hard evidence and He just wants to avoid this.

"The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Matthew 13:10-14

"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here." Matthew 12:38-41

God knows even if He did split the Atlantic Ocean it wouldn't save a fly. He has determined that it is by His grace that we are saved, through faith, nothing else. Faith in what He says not just in what He does. I can absolutely guarantee you that unless His spirit is drawing you then you cannot come to God. Those who are drawn by His spirit don't need huge miracles in order to be convinced that He exists.

Those who need huge miracles will always need huge miracles and God is not going to keep dishing them out just so you will believe in Him. Believe it or not, and this might come as somewhat of a shock to you, but God doesn't really care if you believe in Him or not. Despite the traditional view that Jesus is outside your hearts door, hat in hand begging for you to accept Him. If the Bible is true then it is you who needs Him, not Him who needs you. I know, a shocking thought to the modern mind. Would it ever occur to you that God hates your guts? Well He does. He hates every single sinning particle of you. You are nothing but dead men’s bones to Him, as am I.

That’s why the only way we can be saved is to be covered by the blood of Christ and to be in-filled with His spirit which will lead us to His salvation. You get this by trusting Him with your life, not by seeing huge miracles. Now you can hate God or not believe in Him because He doesn’t dish out miracles all day long if you like but just so you know, He really doesn’t care. If He exists at all then He is not trial, we are. If the mind can even begin to grasp this concept then there is a glimmer of hope.