M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

prunudo · 23-09-2023 3:14pm

Penny pinching as usual, they need to just build the **** thing. So what if motorway is a bit over spec in places, its called future proofing.

Pete_Cavan · 23-09-2023 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146874#Comment_121146874

All of the N18 is not motorway, there are house driveways coming straight onto part of it. I doubt that section will ever get to motorway standard.

Chris_5339762 · 23-09-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146999#Comment_121146999

No, but that section was built many, many many years ago when doing that wasn't a big deal. Replacing that section would be nice, but would end up being very expensive for what you get, unfortunately.

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146957#Comment_121146957

Who's penny pinching? No decision has been made and I'd be shocked if its not all Type 1 DC/motorway.

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2023 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146999#Comment_121146999

It's two wide driving lanes and a hard shoulder though. It'll never be motorway, but it's better than 2+2.

marno21 · 23-09-2023 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121147007#Comment_121147007

Said section was constructed when the country was a comparatively poor backwater. Such low standard DCs were the only realistic option back then. It was that or nothing. As you know, same as the earlier sections of the N25 in east Cork

I’d wager that, at the time, if you explained the current situation with the complete dunce of a Minister for Transport obstructing the construction of proper roads between our cities for the reasons he provides, you’d see quite a considerable amount of head scratching around this part of the country.

prunudo · 23-09-2023 5:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121147379#Comment_121147379

Hope so, just needs to built to a high standard. Benefit of motorway status, keeps animals, cyclists, pedestrians and slow agri vehicles off it.

spacetweek · 23-09-2023 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146495#Comment_121146495

2027 isn't really delayed. That has been the guide start year for some time. This is just confirmation of that. The Prospects 2022 document they put out last year also said 2027-2031 for this scheme, so it's good at least that there's been no slippage.

spacetweek · 23-09-2023 9:13pm

The article says that 30-40% of the existing road will be reused. In the UK or USA that usually means that the dualler would be created by slapping down a secondary carriageway beside the first, but that's not what's intended here - instead the existing road between Mallow and Blarney will have another single carriageway road build alongside, then the existing very wide single carriageway will be widened further into a narrow median dual carriageway.

Norteño · 23-09-2023 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148387#Comment_121148387

So, a type 1 DC?

marno21 · 23-09-2023 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148387#Comment_121148387

The Croom bypass will also be reused I believe, and possibly some of a 2km corridor north of Buttevant at Velvetstowm which had land purchased for widening some time back (just south of the existing widened section between Ballyhea and Lisballyhea)

BagofWeed · 24-09-2023 12:23am

There was a woman earlier tonight holding up an ambulance on the Mallow - Blarney stretch, she spent the journey doing 60-70 km. Couldn't believe what I was seeing. There was no one ahead of her. and she wouldn't even pull in. Now the lights weren't on but they were on when the ambulance pulled out onto the N20 from Mallow South as I was crossing the bridge at the time.

Also there was a guy ahead of me from above Buttevant who braked everytime a car came against him. At one stage I was doing 50 km and he crawled through Newtwopothouse at roughly 40 km. Had to overtake at that stage as thankfully no one oncoming and it's a good ws2.

You notice the crawlers much more on the good stretches of N20 as they pay no heed to road conditions and just dawdle along at the same speed. The Croom by pass has them too, big wide road but they drive to the centre line so you can't overtake. The extreme opposite has death defying overtaking manoeuvrers in which the oncoming lane driver must move in towards his hard shoulder to avoid a head on.

Every journey on the N20 leaves a lasting memory, some scary ones too.

It's not the worst of roads but is totally unsuitable for that volume of traffic and has very limited overtaking opportunities.

Cookiemunster · 24-09-2023 1:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148387#Comment_121148387

The same was done on the Nenagh bypass on the M7. Although without the additional non motorway route as one already existed.

Chris_5339762 · 24-09-2023 10:00am

I'd rather they dawdle along the wider stretches TBH. The absolute worst are those who dawdle along the narrow bits holding everyone up, but then speed up to the limit on the wider stretches so no-one can get around them.... then slow down again.

Kermit.de.frog · 24-09-2023 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146957#Comment_121146957

This. This really isn't complicated. Unfortunately it looks destined to be half assed at best based on the info we have so far. We know it's getting Eamon Ryaned.

Norteño · 25-09-2023 6:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152390#Comment_121152390

Eamon Ryan would struggle to pour water out of his own boot, even if the instructions were written on the sole...

hans aus dtschl · 25-09-2023 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149800#Comment_121149800

I was going to say this. People in powerful cars who can easily get up to speed on the wide stretches then slow to a crawl on the narrow stretches, braking for every oncoming vehicle. I often suspect it's an eyesight issue, that oncoming vehicles aren't clearly visible to them as being on their own side etc.

prunudo · 25-09-2023 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153814#Comment_121153814

I find it ridiculous that some drivers can go 50 years without needing to get their eyes checked as a requirement to renew their licenese but thats for a different thread. Should be some form of medical check every 10 years too but again for a different thread.

hans aus dtschl · 25-09-2023 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153854#Comment_121153854

I was going to say exactly the same thing. I don't know how long I've been driving now, and only needed to pass that one test. It's a bit mad. I should at minimum have an eyesight and theory test every few years.

Bass Reeves · 25-09-2023 3:56pm

They have started the Foynes to Limerick railway line. It seems the original budget was 80 million but it is going to cost much more than that as the railway line has to be completely relaid.

There seem to have been no analysis of the project before it began.......but then again it's a railway and the greens are all for that no matter how poor the business case is.

As it will be commercial goods only will it every carry anything other than a few wind turbines up the country

Cookiemunster · 25-09-2023 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155450#Comment_121155450

What has any of that got to do with the M20?

However to correct some of your post. The budget for phase one of the project is €65m. It was always intended to rip up the old tracks and track bed and relay new ones as part of phase one, along with vegetation clearance and renewal of crossings and bridges.

It's got nothing to do with the Greens. It would have been done even if they weren't in government because it's an EU requirement to have the core ports connected to the core rail network.

Bass Reeves · 25-09-2023 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155486#Comment_121155486

It just show the way probably the most important capital investment project transport wise is treated compared to the sacred railway infrastructure. Aside from the importance of it, before it is complete by probably about 2030 at the earliest another 30+ people will have lost there lives on the Cork/Limerick road. If the Greens and Eamon Ryan in particular had not put blockages in it way over the last 3+ years it would probably be started now

My understanding is the initial budget proposals are completely out of date already. While its an EU requirement the only rush is to draw down minimal funding for it AFAIK they were not going to close the port if it was not done. My understanding is the original budget is out of line and the first part of the project will exceed 100 million.

hans aus dtschl · 25-09-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155533#Comment_121155533

Well yeah, but if the IMF and FG hadn't etc etc. Why always "the greens"? It's tedious and seems inaccurate in an awful lot of cases. Just because "Drive All the Time" radio says it, doesn't make it true.

KrisW1001 · 25-09-2023 5:38pm

"Sacred"? I'd pick a different scapegoat if I were you. Rail investment in this country is shocking - the sum total spend on rail capital projects from 2011 to 2021 was approximately €0.00 give or take a cent. Yes, zero. Nothing. However bad the road network has been treated, it has at least had money spent on it.

We all know N20 is a horrible road, but show me where you get your figure of 30 deaths over seven years - that's more than four people a year...

Regarding Ryan, again, the case is weak. The project started from scratch in 2019 and is about a year behind where we'd expect it to be, but there's been a pandemic in that time, and the project received huge public feedback after the initial options report - processing that feedback takes time.

Eamon Ryan's "meddling" on this scheme was to ask for EV charging, bus stopping areas, and rest facilities at each junction, and to task the consultants to recommend a complementary rail option on the corridor. Neither the rail study nor the junction facilities have affected the corridor or road design itself; and to be honest, when it comes to the junctions plan, we could do with a bit more of that that kind of "interference" - our current motorways are woefully short of places to safely stop up and rest (this is a big issue for lorry drivers, who are on strict driving-time limits)

Your understandings in the second paragraph have already been contradicted. If you've got better sources, please provide that information.

Pete_Cavan · 25-09-2023 7:30pm

Out of interest, has there been any mention of the apparent MSA regulation to which delays on the N11/N25 projects have been attributed? There will be a major port at either end of the N20 (although you'd have to use other roads to access them from the end of the N20).

Given the length of this project, and the Adare - Foynes and M28 projects have both been granted planning approval with MSAs at the ports only, there'd have to be two MSAs on the N20.

Chris_5339762 · 25-09-2023 8:49pm

I'd really hope that that report was a tabloid run, it would make sense to just do MSAs seperately as a different contract, and not delay the main contract because they're not included.

KrisW1001 · 26-09-2023 7:03am

The M9 services opened a decade after the road did, so I suspect that these are always done separately.

The only changes would be if an MSA was required to have its own junction (unlikely; N20 has no big gaps without a junction), or if adding full services to an already planned juction means upgrading that junction (due to more traffic), but these situations would not involve a huge delay on a project that is still in design.

marno21 · 26-09-2023 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794439#Comment_120794439

Let me reiterate.

There appears to be no evidence still that Eamon Ryan is obstructing this project. It's to go to ABP in the next 6 months by that Prospects document, and will commence construction in the next 4 years.

Given the current roads environment, that's a timescale that is very respectable for the biggest roads project in the history of the state when you see much smaller projects taking even longer to progress.